NEW RANGE JVC 2014 - Page 89 - AVS Forum
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post #2641 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:03 PM
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We've 3 'hot' JVC threads so its getting increasingly difficult to know where to post.

Most of us will be familiar with Ekki and he has tested mutliple RS49's. Testing is still to be completed but early indications look good. Posted over in hifi forum, translated by bing:


To the final report, it takes something that we want to check out more devices to obtain reliable data on the serial interface 100%. Today, we have measured 500 X all day. Some devices, but we are not still in the double-digit range, so that the series average values are still not final representative.

But I want to be not like: for the impatient among you here a small preview (measured values with almost ausgereiztem zoom):

-Brightness maximum: between 1200 and 1300 lumens, average 1240 lumen

-Calibrated brightness: between 940 and 1100 lumens, average 1050 lumen

-Eco mode: CA - 30%

-Contrast native / calibrated: between 26,000: 1 and 30,000: 1, average: 27,500: 1

-Dynamic contrast: factor 13, between 300,000: 1 and 400,000: 1

-Gamma: Perfect factory to 2.2 for all devices. At the detail you can file but with the controls.

-Auto-Iris: works not so bad at all, exact tests pending, however. The auto iris is in dark areas on the detail, here you must calibrate after. Should be but the hands of the brightness control: reduced at correct levels of HDMI already "+ 1" measuring contrast (per eye, but very difficult to detect).

-Color temperature: Ex works well, some devices can, but about the 7000K-Preset plus adjustments a little more light reserves out Tickle. The colour temperature drifts away in dark areas.

-Color space: from the factory only the "Custom1" setting fits well, as Oliver has been correctly identified. BUT: Not all X let 500 in green perfectly on the standard matched. Some have a strong yellow cast in green, can be also not completely resolved. Even if you use an extended color space as the calibration base. So is luck.

As far as the first findings.

Many greetings,
Ekki
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post #2642 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, speaking for myself, I just scored a 4810 b-stock from AVS for a few hundred less than you're selling yours for, so there is that! Understood that yours is an especially good unit though. I think it's just a price issue with you and Tim.

I've just come to accept the cost of a projector as a sunken cost... a sunken cost that's been pushed off a cliff. What you get when you sell is just a bonus. That's reality, unfortunately. I'm going to try to be satisfied buying a generations old used pj to replace my RS20... eventually.
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post #2643 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:10 PM
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soupdragon,

Thanks very much for posting that info from Ekki. It's more encouraging!
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post #2644 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

soupdragon,

Thanks very much for posting that info from Ekki. It's more encouraging!

Its very encouraging - hopefully he'll get a whole pallet of our RS57's and do the same tests smile.gif

The dynamic contrast numbers are mind boggling - if it works well these bad boys have the potential to be knockouts with contrast rich content - its only going to get better with the RS57's and 67's. I really hope it works as its one of the key reasons I moved to the RS57. E-shift 3 seems to look good from the couple of pics I've seen of it but I'm not holding out much hope of it being able to even hold a candle to the Sony's when it comes to real 4k content. I've no desire to upscale my 1080p stuff to 4k and then send it to the JVC either. Maybe that will be a pleasant surprise but I can't see 1080p being scaled up x 4 and then e-shift removing half of the upscaling to pull out the 2 x 1080p frames. Thats 2 bouts of processing - 1 to add x4 content and 1 to remove half of it.....we'll see though, maybe it can work well but I'm guessing for 1080p content it will be best to just give the JVC 1080p to begin with and let it do its own work.
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post #2645 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:33 PM
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Yes, kevin seems quite taken by the black levels and contrast of his RS57.

I'm not sure about your analysis of sending the new JVCs upscaled 4K (e.g. from a Lumagen/HTPC etc). The JVC is going to first upscale to 4K before E-shift begins as well, so it's not like it's reducing a step to introduce an external scaler. Using a Lumagen, for instance, to upscale to 4K, you'd just be replacing the JVC's upscaling process with what should be better quality upscaling to 4K.
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post #2646 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, speaking for myself, I just scored a 4810 b-stock from AVS for a few hundred less than you're selling yours for, so there is that! Understood that yours is an especially good unit though. I think it's just a price issue with you and Tim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I've just come to accept the cost of a projector as a sunken cost... a sunken cost that's been pushed off a cliff. What you get when you sell is just a bonus. That's reality, unfortunately. I'm going to try to be satisfied buying a generations old used pj to replace my RS20... eventually.


No kidding. Even with the great pre-buy pricings….. a year later and you are down getting near 2 "Grrr". There is something to be said for waiting for that round of opportunity as a potential buyer as well, much as it kills you.
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post #2647 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Well, speaking for myself, I just scored a 4810 b-stock from AVS for a few hundred less than you're selling yours for, so there is that! Understood that yours is an especially good unit though. I think it's just a price issue with you and Tim.
No kidding. Even with the great pre-buy pricings….. a year later and you are down getting near 2 "Grrr". There is something to be said for waiting for that round of opportunity as a potential buyer as well, much as it kills you.

For me, I think ignorance is bliss. I have an RS20 with a Darbee and the CalMAN Enthusiast/Mini 3D/C6 Color Cube calibration system and I'm still pleased as punch. It's really spectacular. But I look forward to 3D, motion enhancement, e-shift, better brightness, AND a DI! Wow... lots of great new stuff for me... eventually!
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post #2648 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Yes, kevin seems quite taken by the black levels and contrast of his RS57.

I'm not sure about your analysis of sending the new JVCs upscaled 4K (e.g. from a Lumagen/HTPC etc). The JVC is going to first upscale to 4K before E-shift begins as well, so it's not like it's reducing a step to introduce an external scaler. Using a Lumagen, for instance, to upscale to 4K, you'd just be replacing the JVC's upscaling process with what should be better quality upscaling to 4K.

Are you sure Rich?

I'm not 100% either but it's my understanding that JVC pulls 2 x 1080p frames from a 4k input so in effect, you have 2 scenarios:

- 1080p source

- 2 x 1080p frames created by JVC and then output to screen via e-shift

or....

- 1080p source

- 4 x 1080p image created by said processor

- 2 x 1080p images pulled from the 4 x 1080p images and output to screen via e-shift

so in effect, an extra layer of processing. Your adding x 4 and then removing half of it.

I might be wrong but thats my understanding?
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post #2649 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 04:00 PM
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e-shift always works on 4K. So if you send the JVC 1080p, it first has to upscale to 4K internally. If you scale to 4K externally, the JVC has to do less work.

Basically with e-shift active, someone somewhere has to upscale to 4K. Either the JVC itself, or you do it externally. Doing it externally could be better quality. Or not. Needs to be tested...
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post #2650 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 04:02 PM
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As I understand it (and stated by GaryB etc):

Original E-shift: FIRST the JVC upscales 1080p images to 4K and THEN from that new 4K image 2 appropriate frames are taken for the E-shift process.

New E-shift: Same thing: 1080p is first upscaled to 4K and 2 frames are taken from there. Except if it's fed a 4K signal, it skips the upscaling to 4K process and simply takes the 2 frames from the 4K signal for E-shifting.

So by upscaling 1080p via a Lumagen, you are simply replacing only the upscaling process in the new JVCs for 1080p with the Lumagen's upscaling.
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post #2651 of 4136 Old 12-27-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As I understand it (and stated by GaryB etc):

Original E-shift: FIRST the JVC upscales 1080p images to 4K and THEN from that new 4K image 2 appropriate frames are taken for the E-shift process.

New E-shift: Same thing: 1080p is first upscaled to 4K and 2 frames are taken from there. Except if it's fed a 4K signal, it skips the upscaling to 4K process and simply takes the 2 frames from the 4K signal for E-shifting.

So by upscaling 1080p via a Lumagen, you are simply replacing only the upscaling process in the new JVCs for 1080p with the Lumagen's upscaling.

Cool - thanks for that - you learn something new every day!

God, this will be another interesting debate - which 4k upscaling method is best? JVC/Lumagen/AV receiver....

Hmmnnn.....just a thought - so JVC could possibly turn their previous 1.4 HDMI/e-shift projectors into accepting 4k signals with a firmware update - I wonder if that will happen! I remember seeing an article on a JVC website about X70/X90 and saying about 4k-shift and when 4k becomes available, updating the projectors to accept the input. That article I searched for a few months ago and I couldn't find it. Conveniently removed no doubt smile.gif
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post #2652 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

informations and calibration software from JVC are available here :

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x900r_x700r_xc7880_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html
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post #2653 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 05:17 AM
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Can anyone test with HTPC and 4K Content?

4k content as 1080p with / without eshift
4k content natively (projector automatically 4k2k eshift)

What brings you to send 4K native playback for benefits... instead 4k as 1080p.
Is a difference visible?

The native playability is considered an important feature of the new series, but what does it bring?
Is 4k2k better than 4k sent as 1080p?

4k2k I've seen and unfortunately is not nearly ran to the native 4k panel from sony.

Maybe with screenshots

I play my x35 4k material @1080p signal and looks better than Full Hd content.

Best regards from Europe
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post #2654 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

informations and calibration software from JVC are available here :

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x900r_x700r_xc7880_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html

Has anyone used the JVC Calibration software before? I purchased Calman5 and aX-Rite i1Display Pro colorimeter, in all my research and talking with friends in the photo/video industry it seems the X-Rite stuff rated better and does a better job then the Spider meters, the JVC software only seem to work with the Spider meters, just curios if anyone has used it and how it compares to other software. The only advantage i see to someone getting started is its free, since i already purchased Calman5 8-10 months ago would there AutoCalibration solution be just as good,on par, better then the free JVC stuff.
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post #2655 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 06:18 AM
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Yes, can anyone try the autocalibration and post the results please ?
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post #2656 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 06:44 AM
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I am also very curious to hear about this autocalibration feature...unfortunately, my spyder3 elite will not work since you need a spyder4....

Stef
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post #2657 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 09:41 AM
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I'm thinking about buying the Spyder4 Elite to calibrate my X500R that's on the way. What's the downside to using this system?
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post #2658 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

I'm thinking about buying the Spyder4 Elite to calibrate my X500R that's on the way. What's the downside to using this system?

The main one is that it doesn't take into account your screen as you have to calibrate facing the projector when using the JVC software. If your screen is fairly color neutral, it might not be an issue.
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post #2659 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

The main one is that it doesn't take into account your screen as you have to calibrate facing the projector when using the JVC software. If your screen is fairly color neutral, it might not be an issue.

My screen is a 2.35 105" wide Seymour AV CenterStage XD retractable.
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post #2660 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

The main one is that it doesn't take into account your screen as you have to calibrate facing the projector when using the JVC software. If your screen is fairly color neutral, it might not be an issue.
The environmental controls in the projector (where you enter your screen size, screen model, room characteristics, etc) should compensate for this, but who knows how well they do. I'm also curious to try out this calibration method, but I already have an i1d3 and I'd hate to buy another meter if the results aren't any good. Maybe I'll just save up for a Lumagen and do it right. smile.gif
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post #2661 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

The main one is that it doesn't take into account your screen as you have to calibrate facing the projector when using the JVC software. If your screen is fairly color neutral, it might not be an issue.

Doesn't all of the calibration solutions need to be facing the screen to work properly? i know with my calman softare i did the same thing put the colormeter on a tripod 6 inches away form the screen with a slight tilt up.
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post #2662 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R-o-c View Post

Can anyone test with HTPC and 4K Content?

4k content as 1080p with / without eshift
4k content natively (projector automatically 4k2k eshift)

What brings you to send 4K native playback for benefits... instead 4k as 1080p.
Is a difference visible?

The native playability is considered an important feature of the new series, but what does it bring?
Is 4k2k better than 4k sent as 1080p?

4k2k I've seen and unfortunately is not nearly ran to the native 4k panel from sony.

Maybe with screenshots

I play my x35 4k material @1080p signal and looks better than Full Hd content.

Best regards from Europe



You be wanting to hang out in this thread below, with the link on the current last page. Back up a few pages to where the new gear for 2014 plus last year's VW1000E Sony are starting to be examined against each other. Great methodology and screen pics typically presented by Zombie 10K.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/5640#post_24125676
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post #2663 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper14 View Post

Doesn't all of the calibration solutions need to be facing the screen to work properly? i know with my calman softare i did the same thing put the colormeter on a tripod 6 inches away form the screen with a slight tilt up.

All calibrations should take the screen into account, but most allow you to have the meter facing the screen or the projector, either to do a screen neutral calibration, or to overcome some limitation of the meter you are using (no non-pro spectrometer and few non-pro colorimeters are able to read 5% white or below on a JVC in low lamp with the iris fully closed with enough accuracy/reliability/repeatability when facing the screen).

So you can calibrate either by having the meter facing the screen (which the JVC software doesn't allow AFAIK) or you can create a profile to train the meter facing the projector (usually with an ambient head/filter) to itself (or a reference meter) facing the screen without the ambient head/filter. This allows you to read lower light levels (for example greyscale/gamma at 5% white) than when facing the screen if your meter isn't very sensitive in the low end (as long as you're not too close to the PJ and blow the meter's high end).

But all calibrations should take the screen into account, one way or the other. I don't think you can profile the Spyder4 to itself with the JVC software and AFAIK it only works with the meter facing the projector, hence the screen cannot be taken into account (apart from the environment settings mentioned in another post, but that's supposing these are accurate and cover your screen/room etc). I personally wouldn't trust that without verifying first that these environment settings/corrections are accurate for my room/screen.
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post #2664 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post



But all calibrations should take the screen into account, one way or the other. I don't think you can profile the Spyder4 to itself with the JVC software and AFAIK it only works with the meter facing the projector, hence the screen cannot be taken into account (apart from the environment settings mentioned in another post, but that's supposing these are accurate and cover your screen/room etc). I personally wouldn't trust that without verifying first that these environment settings/corrections are accurate for my room/screen.

You could cheat JVC's software. But essentially what happens is that it validates your Spyder is facing the projector when you first start playing with the software. It does this by ensuring an optimum lux level reaches the sensor and tells you to move it backwards or forwards towards the lens until this is achieved. If the sensor is facing the screen it never has enough light to make the software happy. The JVC calibration software is to restore out of the box picture which of course should NOT take the screen into account. As far as I understand it has never been intended as an end to end calibration tool. In the JVC literature it points to restoring the picture back to new allowing for ageing of the projector (bulb and panels). It also allows you to use your own definitions for the R G and B coordinates to create your own custom colourspace.

WARNING: I haven't tried the new software for the 2014 range. But on the 2013 software, the first time you run it, it takes a dump of the projectors LUT (look-up table) defaults. You can over-write these and if you do, it is over-written permanently. It warns you not to lose the dump file which you can use to restore if you mess things up. Apart from scaring the hell out of me with this warning in the user guide, I am a bit puzzled why a factory reset in the service menu wouldn't put everything back to normal anyway, or that JVC could provide a factory dump file that you can download if you lose your own one (JVC projectors are NOT individually calibrated at the factory)
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post #2665 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You could cheat JVC's software. But essentially what happens is that it validates your Spyder is facing the projector when you first start playing with the software. It does this by ensuring an optimum lux level reaches the sensor and tells you to move it backwards or forwards towards the lens until this is achieved. If the sensor is facing the screen it never has enough light to make the software happy. The JVC calibration software is to restore out of the box picture which of course should NOT take the screen into account. As far as I understand it has never been intended as an end to end calibration tool. In the JVC literature it points to restoring the picture back to new allowing for ageing of the projector (bulb and panels). It also allows you to use your own definitions for the R G and B coordinates to create your own custom colourspace.

Interesting software....

So Jonathan, does this mean you could create a wider than REC709 colorspace or is the custom colorspace limited to being a subset of one of the all ready too narrow factory colorspaces?

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post #2666 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 02:22 PM
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Interesting software....

So Jonathan, does this mean you could create a wider than REC709 colorspace or is the custom colorspace limited to being a subset of one of the all ready too narrow factory colorspaces?

If I recall, you can set it bigger, but it won't "do" anything as the calibration final result will stall fall at the extremities of the projector's capability which is, as you know, around rec.709 anyway.

I just checked the user guide for the new version of the software (which also appears to be compatible with the 2013 models although it doesn't say it on the website...it says it in the user guide). It has the same warnings about backing up the factory LUT dump file. For anyone looking for the software, they will find it here:-

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x900r_x700r_xc7880_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html
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post #2667 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You could cheat JVC's software. But essentially what happens is that it validates your Spyder is facing the projector when you first start playing with the software. It does this by ensuring an optimum lux level reaches the sensor and tells you to move it backwards or forwards towards the lens until this is achieved. If the sensor is facing the screen it never has enough light to make the software happy. The JVC calibration software is to restore out of the box picture which of course should NOT take the screen into account. As far as I understand it has never been intended as an end to end calibration tool. In the JVC literature it points to restoring the picture back to new allowing for ageing of the projector (bulb and panels). It also allows you to use your own definitions for the R G and B coordinates to create your own custom colourspace.

WARNING: I haven't tried the new software for the 2014 range. But on the 2013 software, the first time you run it, it takes a dump of the projectors LUT (look-up table) defaults. You can over-write these and if you do, it is over-written permanently. It warns you not to lose the dump file which you can use to restore if you mess things up. Apart from scaring the hell out of me with this warning in the user guide, I am a bit puzzled why a factory reset in the service menu wouldn't put everything back to normal anyway, or that JVC could provide a factory dump file that you can download if you lose your own one (JVC projectors are NOT individually calibrated at the factory)

Thanks Jonathan. If this is the way the software is designed, then Sony is doing it in a much more user-friendly way: the meter is inside the projector, there is no PC software and everything is automatic. You launch an autocal from the user menu in the PJ, and if there is a significant deviation compared to the OOTB state due to bulb/panels, an adjustment is made, otherwise no adjustment is made.

In other words, this JVC calibration software is useful if you want to bring the projector back to its factory state, but not to calibrate your system.

I think the info they back up is precisely the info they use when you do a factory reset, hence why there is no backup but the one you make when you first use the software. The software changes the tables used to reset to factory defaults, which is indeed a bit scary (if you make a mistake and there is a bug when you try to restore the backed-up data).
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post #2668 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 03:01 PM
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I don't know -- per the instruction manual for the JVC software, a CIE diagram is generated once the software finishes the calibration. This, and the fact that you can enter your own target RGB coordinates, at least implies that the software is trying to calibrate to a non-arbitrary standard (i.e. the Rec. 709 or user-defined colorspace) as opposed to simply returning the projector to its as-shipped, factory default condition. I think what the literature is trying to say is that the calibration software lets you maintain a consistent image even as the projector ages -- not that the original OOTB factory settings are the calibration software's target.

Regardless, we'll never know for sure what's going on until someone runs the software and measures the results.
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post #2669 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I don't know -- per the instruction manual for the JVC software, a CIE diagram is generated once the software finishes the calibration. This, and the fact that you can enter your own target RGB coordinates, at least implies that the software is trying to calibrate to a non-arbitrary standard (i.e. the Rec. 709 or user-defined colorspace) as opposed to simply returning the projector to its as-shipped, factory default condition. I think what the literature is trying to say is that the calibration software lets you maintain a consistent image even as the projector ages -- not that the original OOTB factory settings are the calibration software's target.

Regardless, we'll never know for sure what's going on until someone runs the software and measures the results.

It's both! You can restore the factory presets. AND you can define your own colourspaces. Either way, the software is designed to have the meter facing the projector, not the screen. The CIE diagram is to show you how close it got the calibration to the intended targets.
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post #2670 of 4136 Old 12-28-2013, 03:17 PM
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If I recall, you can set it bigger, but it won't "do" anything as the calibration final result will stall fall at the extremities of the projector's capability which is, as you know, around rec.709 anyway.
Yes, quite possibly so.
I recall you saying JVC's are not individually factory calibrated.....so the LUT must be the same for all right? In any event saving the factory LUT makes a huge amount of sense if the SW allows the user to change it.
Sounds like fun to experiment with if one can back it up and if said backup works as planned....

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