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post #2791 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 08:00 AM
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Thanks to member Larry Newcombe I had a chance to look at a 6710 last night for a few hours. DarinP and Tyler Pruitt were also with me. Obviously we didn't get to look at everything but here are some observations I had.

New menu system was hit or miss. If you're used to the old one this one can be frustrating at times to find things. I did LOVE that they took the focus window and moved it to the top right if you're not using the internal pattern. This always annoyed me and now you can look at dead center to focus. Speaking of focus, I found it a tad harder due to the new pixel size. Harder to see the pixel definition with the new fill but I still managed to focus it VERY sharp. Larry's projector was quite good with pixel focus and convergence from what I saw.

We didn't have any issues with HDMI last night despite switching the resolution feeding the projector several times. Larry said he has had a few issues since he got it but we didn't have a single glitch last night. He was feeding the projector HDMI from an Oppo 93 via a Darblet.

We used the standard color gamut and the 2.3 preset for gamma and we literally didn't have to touch a single thing for calibration. We ran thru a full measurement set for grayscale, gamma and gamut (including saturation and color checker) and the projector was almost entirely less than a deltaE of 2 for color and less than 1 for grayscale/gamma. Incredible OOTB performance in this regard. We did have to raise the "dark level" adjustment in the gamma screen to get digital 18 to show up (brightness and contrast were left at 0) but like previous models we were unable to get digital 17 to show up. I wonder if this is a LSB issue with the JVC similar to what the Marantz projectors used to have.

We did some rough calibration measurements. With the light output set for about 13 fL (low lamp iris at 5) we achieved about 40,000:1 (LOTS of room for error with the meter on this) and with the auto iris in mode 2 we got somewhere around 300,000:1ish. Again, these were rough measurements.

We did a lot of watching with Auto 2. Auto 1 was a bit too aggressive as Zombie has pointed out but Auto 2 worked quite well. The first scene we looked at was the interrogation scene from The International near the end of the movie. This always created very obvious problems for the dynamic iris in the Planar 8150. With the projector's HDMI mode in Standard (clipping at 235) we saw some very obvious gamma issues as the projector tried to figure out what it wanted to do. We also saw obvious clipping on Clive Owen's nose, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Planar. The Planar makes the bridge of his nose look like a big clipped patch of white. The JVC kept the color of his skin but clipped all the detail. If we put the HDMI mode into Super White the results were much better. It didn't have nearly as much gamma shifting and the clipping on his nose was far more contained and not nearly as intrusive. Those of you evaluating the iris may want to experiment with this if you're seeing artifacts and are using Standard for the HDMI mode.

We also looked at Riddick. We didn't notice any issues at all with the iris in the scene where they have him chained up. Shadow detail was exceptional throughout this entire scene. The dynamic iris definitely helped extremely low APL scenes that we looked at but I don't know how much it was adding to the mid to low APL scenes. We didn't get the chance to play with clear black.

Overall I was really impressed by what I saw of the iris for JVC's first go around. It clearly improved black levels with black outs and extremely low APL scenes but rarely if ever called attention to itself. Thanks again to Larry for letting us monkey around with his projector last night.

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post #2792 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

We think it is firmware related, but need to get an answer from JVC and they will not get a chance to look in to this problem, until tomorrow.

Please keep us posted!

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post #2793 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Centre stage XD acoustic screen 1.2 gain

There are some screen tests that show the CenterStage XD's gain to be closer to 1.0. Is your scope screen 145" wide, or diagonal?
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post #2794 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Please re-read my posts. I never claimed you were using DI mode 1. I'm simply saying that because you haven't calibrated it yet you don't know what the gamma curve looks like and could be giving you a false sense of inkier blacks, which you claim the x900 has over the x95 on a native level. The reason I brought up iris mode 1 is because it uses more aggressive dynamic gamma which gives the sense of higher contrast even though on/off numbers are the same because the iris movement is the same in both modes. Without a custom gamma where you know both are on an equal playing field, your eyes can be tricked into thinking the image has more contrast/inkier blacks. I don't doubt what you're seeing but I'm just saying that's probably not the whole truth to what's going on, especially because the native contrast between the x95 and x900 are very close. On a native level there shouldn't be a huge discrepancy like the one you're touting. The new models have higher contrast ratios for sure, but some are making it sound like native contrast differences are huge between this and last year. That isn't the case which is why I'm making a second guess into what you're seeing.

You might be right I have no idea....., I'm only quoting what my eyes are seeing between the X95 and the X900, the new model is defiantly an improvement.
I still have my X95 up until the 8th of this month, the image is not as detailed, sharp or has the pop like the X900 has, something has very much changed.

Lets see what others think comparing older models to the new generation....

Again I ask have you seen the two models with your own eyes side by side?

Murray Thompson

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post #2795 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

There are some screen tests that show the CenterStage XD's gain to be closer to 1.0. Is your scope screen 145" wide, or diagonal?
145" diag

Murray Thompson

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post #2796 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Bulb age could also be a factor if the old X95 had many hours on it. When comparing projector contrast, it's best to match the brightness and gamma first.

What iris setting were you using on your X95?

I had 200 hrs on the X95, all settings the same.

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post #2797 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:20 AM
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Kris Deering,

Thanks very much for giving us that report on Larry's projector. It was very informative!

Rich H


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post #2798 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post


We also looked at Riddick. We didn't notice any issues at all with the iris in the scene where they have him chained up. Shadow detail was exceptional throughout this entire scene. The dynamic iris definitely helped extremely low APL scenes that we looked at but I don't know how much it was adding to the mid to low APL scenes. We didn't get the chance to play with clear black.

Overall I was really impressed by what I saw of the iris for JVC's first go around. It clearly improved black levels with black outs and extremely low APL scenes but rarely if ever called attention to itself. Thanks again to Larry for letting us monkey around with his projector last night.

Kris, thanks for sharing, it looks like we are seeing the same thing overall. When all other conditions are the same, the 57's black floor in these low APL scenes appears several 'clicks' lower than the 55 can achieve. The black bars on my un-masked 16:9 screen fade away and it looks excellent in these scenes. I am digging out my sci-fi collection to take a closer look at some of my favorites.

I agree on the higher APL scenes, it's difficult to get a handle on just how much the iris is helping. sci-fi / horror fans are definitely going to get a kick out of these new models.


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post #2799 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kris, thanks for sharing, it looks like we are seeing the same thing overall. When all other conditions are the same, the 57's black floor in these low APL scenes appears several 'clicks' lower than the 55 can achieve. The black bars on my un-masked 16:9 screen fade away and it looks excellent in these scenes. I am digging out my sci-fi collection to take a closer look at some of my favorites.

I agree on the higher APL scenes, it's difficult to get a handle on just how much the iris is helping. sci-fi / horror fans are definitely going to get a kick out of these new models.

Zombie, Have you turned off the iris and tested without it?
Im seeing a big improvement on native contrast with the X900 than I did on my old X95 with auto iris set to manual. The blacks within very bright scenes with gamma 2.3 is stunning.

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post #2800 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

... I'm simply saying that because you haven't calibrated it yet you don't know what the gamma curve looks like and could be giving you a false sense of inkier blacks...

No need to get so sophisticated to determine black level, just look at the letterbox bars.

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post #2801 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 11:28 AM
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Thanks for the evaluation, Kris.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

...We did have to raise the "dark level" adjustment in the gamma screen to get digital 18 to show up (brightness and contrast were left at 0) but like previous models we were unable to get digital 17 to show up. I wonder if this is a LSB issue with the JVC similar to what the Marantz projectors used to have.

...The JVC kept the color of his skin but clipped all the detail. If we put the HDMI mode into Super White the results were much better. It didn't have nearly as much gamma shifting and the clipping on his nose was far more contained and not nearly as intrusive. Those of you evaluating the iris may want to experiment with this if you're seeing artifacts and are using Standard for the HDMI mode.

So would the setup procedure that gives shadow detail w/o white clipping be to set HDMI mode to Super White and use the "dark level" adjustment to see the faintest bar on a setup disk, while leaving Brightness at 0?

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post #2802 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

No need to get so sophisticated to determine black level, just look at the letterbox bars.

Plus, he is used to having calibrated jvc projectors. I believe he had all flagship eshift models, so he has a good judgment of how a calibrated projector should look
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post #2803 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

We did have to raise the "dark level" adjustment in the gamma screen to get digital 18 to show up (brightness and contrast were left at 0) but like previous models we were unable to get digital 17 to show up. I wonder if this is a LSB issue with the JVC similar to what the Marantz projectors used to have.


We did a lot of watching with Auto 2. Auto 1 was a bit too aggressive as Zombie has pointed out but Auto 2 worked quite well. The first scene we looked at was the interrogation scene from The International near the end of the movie. This always created very obvious problems for the dynamic iris in the Planar 8150. With the projector's HDMI mode in Standard (clipping at 235) we saw some very obvious gamma issues as the projector tried to figure out what it wanted to do. We also saw obvious clipping on Clive Owen's nose, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Planar. The Planar makes the bridge of his nose look like a big clipped patch of white. The JVC kept the color of his skin but clipped all the detail. If we put the HDMI mode into Super White the results were much better. It didn't have nearly as much gamma shifting and the clipping on his nose was far more contained and not nearly as intrusive. Those of you evaluating the iris may want to experiment with this if you're seeing artifacts and are using Standard for the HDMI mode.

Thanks for the feedback Kris. I had wondered if using superwhite might have improve the white clipping, but I didn't really get to test it out.

To clarify, when you set the projector's input level to superwhite fid you also change the source's output to superwhite. And once switched to superwhite did you adjust the projector's contrast settings? You mentioned you left the contrast at 0 for the standard clipping at 235, but where did you clip when testing superwhite?

I'm also curious how many clicks you raised the dark level. I tried custom 2.3 gamma on my RS57 last night and raised the dark level control to 4-5. I think it looks good. I can see 18 but not 17. I only raised it to 2 when I was using 2.2. Do you think raising it to 4 or 5 would be too much?
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post #2804 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 01:14 PM
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Ok, where's DarinP? smile.gif

Darin, you were so involved in previous threads about the uses of DIs and advocating JVC adopt one for so long, I'm very curious to see your response to JVC's first go at a DI.

Rich H


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post #2805 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Ok, where's DarinP? smile.gif

Darin, you were so involved in previous threads about the uses of DIs and advocating JVC adopt one for so long, I'm very curious to see your response to JVC's first go at a DI.

Darrin is still waiting on his projector. Once he has it in hand and has spent some time with it, i am sure he will post. smile.gif

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post #2806 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Darrin is still waiting on his projector. Once he has it in hand and has spent some time with it, i am sure he will post. smile.gif

Fair enough. I was just riffing off the fact Darin joined Kris in evaluating Larry's projector. smile.gif

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post #2807 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Thanks to member Larry Newcombe I had a chance to look at a 6710 last night for a few hours. DarinP and Tyler Pruitt were also with me. Obviously we didn't get to look at everything but here are some observations I had.

New menu system was hit or miss. If you're used to the old one this one can be frustrating at times to find things. I did LOVE that they took the focus window and moved it to the top right if you're not using the internal pattern. This always annoyed me and now you can look at dead center to focus. Speaking of focus, I found it a tad harder due to the new pixel size. Harder to see the pixel definition with the new fill but I still managed to focus it VERY sharp. Larry's projector was quite good with pixel focus and convergence from what I saw.

We didn't have any issues with HDMI last night despite switching the resolution feeding the projector several times. Larry said he has had a few issues since he got it but we didn't have a single glitch last night. He was feeding the projector HDMI from an Oppo 93 via a Darblet.

We used the standard color gamut and the 2.3 preset for gamma and we literally didn't have to touch a single thing for calibration. We ran thru a full measurement set for grayscale, gamma and gamut (including saturation and color checker) and the projector was almost entirely less than a deltaE of 2 for color and less than 1 for grayscale/gamma. Incredible OOTB performance in this regard. We did have to raise the "dark level" adjustment in the gamma screen to get digital 18 to show up (brightness and contrast were left at 0) but like previous models we were unable to get digital 17 to show up. I wonder if this is a LSB issue with the JVC similar to what the Marantz projectors used to have.

We did some rough calibration measurements. With the light output set for about 13 fL (low lamp iris at 5) we achieved about 40,000:1 (LOTS of room for error with the meter on this) and with the auto iris in mode 2 we got somewhere around 300,000:1ish. Again, these were rough measurements.

We did a lot of watching with Auto 2. Auto 1 was a bit too aggressive as Zombie has pointed out but Auto 2 worked quite well. The first scene we looked at was the interrogation scene from The International near the end of the movie. This always created very obvious problems for the dynamic iris in the Planar 8150. With the projector's HDMI mode in Standard (clipping at 235) we saw some very obvious gamma issues as the projector tried to figure out what it wanted to do. We also saw obvious clipping on Clive Owen's nose, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Planar. The Planar makes the bridge of his nose look like a big clipped patch of white. The JVC kept the color of his skin but clipped all the detail. If we put the HDMI mode into Super White the results were much better. It didn't have nearly as much gamma shifting and the clipping on his nose was far more contained and not nearly as intrusive. Those of you evaluating the iris may want to experiment with this if you're seeing artifacts and are using Standard for the HDMI mode.

We also looked at Riddick. We didn't notice any issues at all with the iris in the scene where they have him chained up. Shadow detail was exceptional throughout this entire scene. The dynamic iris definitely helped extremely low APL scenes that we looked at but I don't know how much it was adding to the mid to low APL scenes. We didn't get the chance to play with clear black.

Overall I was really impressed by what I saw of the iris for JVC's first go around. It clearly improved black levels with black outs and extremely low APL scenes but rarely if ever called attention to itself. Thanks again to Larry for letting us monkey around with his projector last night.

Great report! Interesting hear about the clipping issue on the JVC vs. Planar PD8150. While the iris movement itself on the PD8150 was practically invisible, sometimes things did clip. There are some scenes during Harry Potter where there'd only be open flame torches lighting the room/scene and the rest of the image apart from those flames were very dark. You could tell something wasn't quite right during a scene like this because the flames looked too bright (clipped). So while the changes in iris placement weren't apparent (no pumping), peak whites in any given dark scene sometimes took on an overly "cooked" look. I would imagine that because the JVC already has such great contrast available to it, they don't need to push the DI as hard which would mean the gamma changes don't need to be quite as severe either, which is why we don't see such hard clipping on the JVCs.

The PD8150 does clip but only on occasion. Most of the time the DI/gamma changes are well in check to make sure the image looks natural during most night/dark scenes.

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post #2808 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 02:05 PM
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For those trying to display level 17 on the JVCs with a radiance, try raising ire 0 just a little in the radiance gamma controls (after an autocal if you are autocal-ing) I know it sounds like it would raise the black levels, but it doesn't. Often it's the only way to get level 17 to show with a jvc without raising the black levels, especially if you are aiming for a high power gamma like 2.4-2.6.

I agree with seanbryan that selecting superwhite without raising contrast by at least 5-7 (to resolve up to 240 instead of up to 255) would not be ideal. It would kill both peak brightness and native on/off in 99% of the content we watch for no other benefit. So hopefully if standard crushes whites there is a compromise to be found with the contrast setting in superwhite so that we don't compromise as much on/off and peak brightness. I'm sure Kris would have looked for it if he had enough time, but it sounded like they had to test it a bit in a hurry.
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post #2809 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 02:42 PM
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That's a variation on what I've tried in the past; I adjust the 5% greyscale slot down to 1% (maybe 0.5% I can't remember at the moment) and increase the 'luma' setting by 0.1 or 0.2 which makes the 17 bar more visible, but without raising the absolute black level.

Maybe we're both saying the same thing, but I leave the 0% slot at 0, so I think we might differ slightly (whether it makes any difference which method used is another matter).

My biggest issue is improving my room and/or changing to a different screen otherwise there is little point in upgrading to the newer models anyway...

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #2810 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 02:47 PM
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Has any one used this http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm

I am thinking to buy some to put on my front wall so that the wall can disappear ?

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Has any one used this http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm

I am thinking to buy some to put on my front wall so that the wall can disappear ?

Its very popular on the forum
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post #2812 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:12 PM
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So to sum it up, was it better for me and was it worth the upgrade from the X5 to the X900, ABSOLUTLY!

In a nutshell I have better blacks.
Increased depth and detail, the image now pops and almost looks like an enormous plasma.
2D has so much depth and richness like never before.
The image is more than bright enough, I have the iris on auto 2 and manual iris stopped down to -2.
I can finally use CMD without artefacts.

I have lots more testing to do but so far I'm over the moon!
I can unequivocally say the X900 is better than the X95, I don't care loosing money on the changeover. I feel the step-up is way greater than it was going from the X90 to the X95.

So far this is all looking good. Once we get the HDMI fix this must certainly be a marriage made in heaven! smile.gif

Great overview Rap (totally agree)... Thanks for the input and at least it helps me to not sound like such a fanboy from my initial review/comments last week! biggrin.gif

And what's up with Kris not spending like even 5min reviewing Clear Black… Boo! tongue.gifwink.gif

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post #2813 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Has any one used this http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm

I am thinking to buy some to put on my front wall so that the wall can disappear ?

Protostar is great, but black velvet is better.
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post #2814 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Has any one used this http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm

I am thinking to buy some to put on my front wall so that the wall can disappear ?

This would be brilliant, I have my walls and ceiling in a similar product, absolutely no (zero) reflections.

Murray Thompson

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post #2815 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Protostar is great, but black velvet is better.

I've heard the same. The protostar is great if you have white ceiling tiles you want to cover. For walls it's cheaper and better to use black velvet.

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post #2816 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've heard the same. The protostar is great if you have white ceiling tiles you want to cover. For walls it's cheaper and better to use black velvet.

One might be easier to work with vs the other depending on what you are trying to cover as you mention, but black velvet is darker and kills off light better if you compare them and do the flashlight test.

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post #2817 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:37 PM
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There are some screen tests that show the CenterStage XD's gain to be closer to 1.0. Is your scope screen 145" wide, or diagonal?

I actually measured my CenterStage AT a few years back and the avg reading from a 1.0 piece of material was .93 of peak w/ a .86 avg. smile.gif

To POTTS… The xPand 104's on the Jungle for about $65 work really well (I have 5 Blue & 5 white versions along with 2 USB orig OEM's)

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post #2818 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

For those trying to display level 17 on the JVCs with a radiance, try raising ire 0 just a little in the radiance gamma controls (after an autocal if you are autocal-ing) I know it sounds like it would raise the black levels, but it doesn't. Often it's the only way to get level 17 to show with a jvc without raising the black levels, especially if you are aiming for a high power gamma like 2.4-2.6.

I agree with seanbryan that selecting superwhite without raising contrast by at least 5-7 (to resolve up to 240 instead of up to 255) would not be ideal. It would kill both peak brightness and native on/off in 99% of the content we watch for no other benefit. So hopefully if standard crushes whites there is a compromise to be found with the contrast setting in superwhite so that we don't compromise as much on/off and peak brightness. I'm sure Kris would have looked for it if he had enough time, but it sounded like they had to test it a bit in a hurry.

That's what I had to do Manni as I was stuck at 19-20 using STD but the Mini dialed it in nicely (I took your suggestion from a couple years ago on the 55, so thanks!). smile.gif

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post #2819 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

I actually measured my CenterStage AT a few years back and the avg reading from a 1.0 piece of material was .93 of peak w/ a .86 avg. smile.gif

To POTTS… The xPand 104's on the Jungle for about $65 work really well (I have 5 Blue & 5 white versions along with 2 USB orig OEM's)

Was it the original CenterStage or the current XD material?
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post #2820 of 4136 Old 01-05-2014, 04:07 PM
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XD

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