why doesn't jvc compete with the sim2 lumis 3d solo? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 08-19-2013, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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If you want high lumens and a great picture you have to turn to a high end 3 chip dlp model like the sim2 lumis which puts out 3000 lumens.

Why doesn't jvc put out a 3 or 4000 lumen model, slap on a dynamic iris and compete with the expensive 3 chip dlp units?

Lumens are the one thing people crave more of with jvc why don't they give the people what they want duh?

It's like with apple. People bought more 4"+ android screens than the iphone so why not build a larger screen? 5 years later they do. Samung sells more 5" galaxy s4s than the iphone 5 so why doesn't apple sell a 5 inch model and even a 5.5" model?

You almost at a certain point start feel like telling these companies what to do then yell duh at them!

Duh netflix rent video games and 3d blu rays duh!

Sorry now I'm off topic.

Any thoughts on a high lumen jvc projector with a dynamic iris would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 12:43 AM
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i'm just speculating here, but i'm going to say it's because tripling the light output would drastically raise the black floor to a level jvc would no longer be proud of. adding a dynamic iris may get some of this back, but at the expense of using a dynamic iris.

the end result would be a bright, but poor performing projector. i just don't think there's really a cheap solution like this.

i for one find the jvc's MORE than bright enough, and wouldn't want to give up ANY of the black levels for more brightness. in fact i'd trade a couple hundred lumens for darker blacks, or something other improvements(input lag, motion handling?)

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post #3 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 03:58 AM
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JVC actually have a brighter projector and its built around the current chassis but not many people know about it or discuss it. There was one on ebay from Germany a while back so I took a pop at the auction and just missed out frown.gif

Its 1700 lumens so no game changer but only 30k contrast so less than half than the 'home cinema' line. Its the F110:

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/projectors/JVC_DLA-F110

I think if JVC pushed too far with the lumens then it would really look a bit 'so-so' compared to the competition. If the F110 is anything to go by, once you increase the lumens you lose contrast and you raise the black floor. JVC's aren't great for their ANSI contrast so once you bring the specs towards the sim2 lumis category then on a side by side the JVC would probably looked a bit washed out in comparison. (estimating here that black floor would be similar, contrast would be similar and then the Sim2 would wipe the floor with the JVC on ANSI contrast) Just surmising of course but JVC are standout in their class for contrast and moving away from its class leading performance would put it in the 'also ran' category IMHO.
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought lcos had higher ansi contrast numbers now than dlp?

And what the heck is black floor?
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post #5 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

I thought lcos had higher ansi contrast numbers now than dlp?

And what the heck is black floor?

Nope, its usually less than half (350ish) a good DLP. The highest ansi contrast I've seen from an lcos machine is the Sony vpl-vp1000es which is on par with a good dlp at 750ish. High ansi on this model is no doubt due in part to its VERY high end lens and light path design.

Black floor is referring to black level.

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post #6 of 32 Old 08-20-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Black floor is referring to black level.

Yeah, DUH!

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post #7 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Nope, its usually less than half (350ish) a good DLP. The highest ansi contrast I've seen from an lcos machine is the Sony vpl-vp1000es which is on par with a good dlp at 750ish. High ansi on this model is no doubt due in part to its VERY high end lens and light path design.

Black floor is referring to black level.

JVC constantly gets praise of amazing contrast and one of the best pictures available.

That's not ansi contrast? That's what dynamic or something? And when talking about slapping on a dynamic iris and adding a few thousand lumens its contrast would suffer more than a dlp does?

I always hear people saying lcos native contrast ratio has far surpassed dlp in terms of blacks.

Hopefully somone can explain this thanks.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Yeah, DUH!

Lovely aren't you wonderful

Edit:

I got this figured out.

But people love jvc even though it doesn't have the highest ansi contrast.

Would it's on/off with a dynamic iris and 5000 lumens still be less than the sim2 lumis's on/off excluding ansi contrast?
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post #8 of 32 Old 08-22-2013, 08:47 PM
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On/Off Contrast and ANSI Contrast are two separate things. Please use the search function as there are several topics that discuss this. To sum it up, On/Off is typically a more important number in regards to how the image looks with low APL content. Higher end DLP units have a much more prominent 3D look to them with mid to high APL content. This is due to the typically twice as high ANSI contrast over LCD and LCOS based projectors. Side by side an LCD or LCOS machine looks a bit flat and dull compared to a good DLP unit on content that is well lit.

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post #9 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 11:02 AM
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DLP proponents like to brag about ANSI contrast, but IMO, ANSI is far less important to the overall look of a movie image than on/off contrast. ANSI is really only a benefit in brightly-lit scenes with little bits of dark in them. But in those brightly-lit scenes, your eye is naturally drawn toward the brighter parts anyway, and the dark parts will comparatively always look plenty dark relative to them.

Will a brightly-lit image look slightly better with high ANSI contrast? Yes, but only slightly. Both will look good. Even LCDs look good with brightly-lit scenes, and those have crap for contrast all around. Here you're arguing the difference between "Very Good" and "Even a Little Bit Better."

Conversely, when you do hit a dark scene, having a deep black level is hugely important because your eye will scour the darkness for important picture. If the projector has poor on/off contrast, black levels will appear grayish and milky, which will immediately look wrong. Adding a dynamic iris doesn't help, because that pulls down the highlights and makes the whole thing look murky. Here the difference isn't between "Very Good" and "Even a Little Bit Better." It's between "Excellent" and "Awful."

I have both a JVC LCoS and a DLP (which I bought for 3D). The JVC looks terrifically three-dimensional in all scenes, both bright and dark. The DLP only looks good in bright scenes, and lousy in dark scenes (though it does have much better 3D).

My $.02. Others will disagree.

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post #10 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 11:29 AM
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I agree somewhat, but depends on the movie you are watching. DLP's process the image differently, and different movies have different types of lighting techniques and just look different on different projectors. I usually prefer my JVC over a DLP, even over a Runco, but not always.

Though this goes against common knowledge, theoretically, dynamic IRIS's by using dynamic GAMMA can increase intrascene contrast at times when a scene does not have the white peaks near the limits of the gamma curve, it does it because it's essentially "exaggerating" the intrascene contrast of a scene that was not mastered or filmed to have high intrascene contrast because the gamma mastering was done at a more limited range for that scene. This is essentially sort of like Brilliant Color on some DLP's, but it's exaggerating it even more. Realistically though as films have gotten cleaner and better mastered, the DI's hurt the scene as much as it helps at times, because high intrascene contrast are much more common than before (because scenes are much more enhanced). Hence, the gamma corrections implemented with IRIS's can move the gamma around more if there is more room in the first place in a given scene (theoretically speaking). Think of it this way, compare a current Sci Fi movie like Oblivion to one in the 1950's, which one typically shows better contrast, exactly. In a way, you could say that DI's might actually look better on old movies so to speak where they have bad gamma mastering. For the most part, the DI does affect the peak whites as long as the gamma spread in a scene is there in the first place.

Though this is over-stating / over-analyzing, realistically the DI usually hits the white peaks in the scenes when we need the DI not to, because those types of scenes where the DI's kick in the most are often starfields or similar, and that's where it hurts it. Another complication is how bright you are watching the movie, since brightness is not linear, neither is the way we perceive contrast. So at times an IRIS might do a nice job while in other scenes it falls flat or looks too noticeable simply because of the way our eye perceived it at different brightness levels.



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post #11 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

DLP proponents like to brag about ANSI contrast, but IMO, ANSI is far less important to the overall look of a movie image than on/off contrast. ANSI is really only a benefit in brightly-lit scenes with little bits of dark in them. But in those brightly-lit scenes, your eye is naturally drawn toward the brighter parts anyway, and the dark parts will comparatively always look plenty dark relative to them.

Will a brightly-lit image look slightly better with high ANSI contrast? Yes, but only slightly. Both will look good. Even LCDs look good with brightly-lit scenes, and those have crap for contrast all around. Here you're arguing the difference between "Very Good" and "Even a Little Bit Better."

Conversely, when you do hit a dark scene, having a deep black level is hugely important because your eye will scour the darkness for important picture. If the projector has poor on/off contrast, black levels will appear grayish and milky, which will immediately look wrong. Adding a dynamic iris doesn't help, because that pulls down the highlights and makes the whole thing look murky. Here the difference isn't between "Very Good" and "Even a Little Bit Better." It's between "Excellent" and "Awful."

I have both a JVC LCoS and a DLP (which I bought for 3D). The JVC looks terrifically three-dimensional in all scenes, both bright and dark. The DLP only looks good in bright scenes, and lousy in dark scenes (though it does have much better 3D).

My $.02. Others will disagree.

Yeah, I agree. You really only see the advantage in bright scenes when the two are side by side. An LCOS machine looks good with brighter material, it just doesn't have that 3D pop that's typical of a DLP unit. I've added a ND2 filter to my PD8150 recently and the black floor with the DI enabled is as low as a low end JVC. On my high power screen it is still a bright enough picture.

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post #12 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 12:02 PM
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Black floor can get close on a full white to full black dynamic ON/OFF test pattern, but the intrascene contrast isn't close to the JVC in low apl scenes that have bright spots (like starfields).

If you have ever seen certain shots in the Universe series, you can tell where ANSI matter and on/off stops when they pan sideways on a full black view to a bright planet or the sun (the planet comes into view slowly). This series is funny because you need both MAX ANSI and ON/OFF within 5 seconds, the reason is because they rendered many of the planets at or NEAR maximum contrast, hence objects near 100 white peak with 0 black floor in the background (rendered images often make full use of the gamma spectrum because it's free and does not require re-mastering or special lighting). In older movies the dynamic range of the intrascene contrast suffers because the cameras and lighting were inferior, and the re-mastering techniques as well.



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post #13 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 01:35 PM
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It's similar to the point I made before about ANSI contrast and not being able to tell a difference between the two unless they were side by side. The JVC looks fantastic during brighter scenes and it's only evident it's lacking in ANSI when placed next to a DLP with a much higher ANSI contrast number. With the DI and ND2 filter in place it gives a sense of black and high contrast during those low APL scenes. All but the hardest core would feel it's missing in the contrast department. You'd only feel you were missing out if you had the two side by side.

I quote Art over at Projector Reviews (and this is without the use of an ND Filter):
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As I have said more times (in more reviews) than I care to remember, once you reach a certain level of black level performance, other things, (like exceptional color) start becoming more important. True, really dark scenes with minor bright lights won't look as good as the top of the line JVCs, but, those scenes still look fine with a lot of "pop". The LS-5 projector behaves in terms of black level performance more along the lines of the Sony VPL-VW90ES, and the Epson 8700UB. The 8700UB, by far the best blacks among the lower cost projectors, seems to best the LS-5, but its iris action is not as smooth, and therefore, on occasion, more noticeable.

In terms of similar projectors, the Optoma HD8600 comes to mind as another really good (and not dissimilarly priced) single chip DLP. In our original review of that Optoma HD8600, though we found the iris so noticeable, that we didn't like using it. Almost a year later we got to review the improved iris, and it was far better, but still not near as smooth as this Runco projector.

In other words, I've watched almost 100 hours on this Runco, and I never felt a compelling need (even on the darkest of scenes) to switch back to my JVC RS20, which does do blacker blacks. Like that Optoma I just mentioned, the Sony VW90ES, and several other really good home theater projectors, the LightStyle LS-5 delivers really good black performance, that should satisfy all but the hardest core - must have a JVC for the blacks type person, disregarding other aspects of the projectors.

From what I've heard the Lumis is even better in this regard. It narrows the gap even more so than my DLP unit does.

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post #14 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

With the DI and ND2 filter in place it gives a sense of black and high contrast during those low APL scenes. All but the hardest core would feel it's missing in the contrast department. You'd only feel you were missing out if you had the two side by side.

I quote Art over at Projector Reviews (and this is without the use of an ND Filter):

Most of us just disagree that all but the hardest core folks wouldn't notice the difference in contrast between a "mid-range high-end" DLP like a Runco LS-5 and a JVC, it's easy to see the difference. You definitely do not need to A/B IMO, it's milkier vs milky-less. The JVC isn't even the end-all be-all of contrast in the video world, darker blacks wouldn't hurt the JVC either. The Lumis is probably a different story, but never seen one.

I can also tell the difference between DLP and LCOS without A/B'n in bright scenes, but only in certain movies to where I'm used to it and the shooting is as such that it makes it easy to tell.



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post #15 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 01:55 PM
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Art is a staunch JVC fanboy and for him to say that means a lot in my opinion. I'm of the same opinion. Unless you have them side by side, in a well treated room, most wouldn't feel the image lacks contrast. I'm not saying they are equal in terms of contrast. Obviously the JVC is better n this regard. I'm pointing out that, like ANSI, it's hard to get a frame of reference on what is better when black already looks black, unless you had another unit side by side (like a JVC) to show you. That is what Art is trying to say. It gives enough performance that only someone who has that frame of reference and wants what the other image has. But for me, contrast isn't the one determining factor in my projector choice and because I've found a product that satisfies my needs in that department I can take advantage of the other aspects DLP gives over LCOS. I believe the Lumis has this same trait but narrows the gap between those frame of reference even further.

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post #16 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:02 PM
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Maybe in the regular world, not in the AVS world.

The black levels of the Runco LS-5 are not even in Epson 5010/5020 territory, I've seen it side-by-side next to a Mits hc4000, Epson 5010, and a JVC. The Epson with the IRIS disabled is pretty close to the Runco with the IRIS enabled, though the Runco still goes slightly darker on all black scenes compared to an Epson with no IRIS, but realistically it could use better blacks like many of the other DLP's we've seen.

I'd say the Runco's blacks are slightly better than the Panasonic 7000, but the Runco has the better IRIS for sure. The Runco IRIS is not perfect however by any stretch. Throw the Tree of Life bluray where the red lights flicker in the middle of an all black scene at the Runco's IRIS, it sort of trips up. It doesn't trip up nearly as bad as the Benq IRIS though (which is comical in this scene).

The Runco's native on/off is somewhere around 3000:1. The JVC's can easily exceed 30,000:1, remember the IRIS can only do so much, and sometimes an IRIS helps almost none. How much the IRIS helps depends on the scene.

If you watch an average movie with not many dark scenes, sure it'd be hard to tell (but then so would my $700 Viewsonic). If you watch something like Harry Potter or Falling Skies, you can definitely tell without an A/B.



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post #17 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
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Art is a staunch JVC fanboy and for him to say that means a lot in my opinion.

he used to be, looks like it's Epson these days if you read closely.


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post #18 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:18 PM
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Maybe in the regular world, not in the AVS world.

The black levels of the Runco LS-5 are not even in Epson 5010/5020 territory, I've seen it side-by-side next to a Mits hc4000, Epson 5010, and a JVC. The Epson with the IRIS disabled is pretty close to the Runco with the IRIS enabled, though the Runco still goes slightly darker on all black scenes compared to an Epson with no IRIS, but realistically it could use better blacks like many of the other DLP's we've seen.

I'd say the Runco's blacks are slightly better than the Panasonic 7000, but the Runco has the better IRIS for sure. The Runco IRIS is not perfect however by any stretch, the Sony IRIS is better. Throw the Tree of Life bluray where the red lights flicker in the middle of an all black scene at the Runco's IRIS, it sort of trips up, the Sony IRIS does not. It doesn't trip up nearly as bad as the Benq IRIS though (which is comical in this scene).

The Runco's native on/off is somewhere around 3000:1. The JVC's can easily exceed 30,000:1, remember the IRIS can only do so much, and sometimes an IRIS helps almost none. How much the IRIS helps depends on the scene.

If you watch an average movie with not many dark scenes, sure it'd be hard to tell (but then so would my $700 Viewsonic). If you watch something like Harry Potter or Falling Skies, you can definitely tell without an A/B.

Am I going to see the Runco iris in a blacked out room? I recently calibrated a 6020 for a friend and had to shut the iris off, I could easily see it. I can also see the HW50 iris now which is supposed to be one of the better iris out there.

Oblivion has a number of torture scenese that sent the Epson and Sony iris on a wild goose chase.

btw, this has to be the new reference movie even though I don't like it and it has tom cruise which is a double whammy but boy does it look good...


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post #19 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:19 PM
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I guess the problem is more what you are used to, I will agree if you are not used to the darker blacks of a JVC, it would be harder to tell the difference. At some point though, you get used to that high intrascene contrast. I can tell the difference before I even start the movie, on the JVC the first thing you always notice is that my Sony LOGO on my Bluray player looks much brighter while the black bars are much darker.

Native on/off is under-estimated because people are often judging non-contrasty dark scenes, in that case it is hard to see the difference. Try something that actually has POP to it, like Green Lantern (ok horrible movie, but had some good dark scenes), or maybe Harry Pooter. Even the battle in that one XMEN movie looks way better on the JVC (sorry just IMO).



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post #20 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:23 PM
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Yeah, Harry Potter destroys my Planar. I had them side by side and it wasn't even close. But how often would I watch a movie like that? Was it watchable on the Planar? Yes, more than watchable. I guess I just don't need crazy high contrast to be happy. Some people are bothered by it where I see it as a minor distraction in the grand scheme of things. The 12000:1 or so i'm getting with higher ANSI contrast meets my needs in terms of contrast performance. Do I see a difference with the JVC, of course, but do I feel it's high contrast sets it apart in terms of overall image quality to some of the other projectors I've owned? Not at all.

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post #21 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:24 PM
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Am I going to see the Runco iris in a blacked out room? I recently calibrated a 6020 for a friend and had to shut the iris off, I could easily see it. I can also see the HW50 iris now which is supposed to be one of the better iris out there.

Oblivion has a number of torture scenese that sent the Epson and Sony iris on a wild goose chase.

btw, this has to be the new reference movie even though I don't like it and it has tom cruise which is a double whammy but boy does it look good...

If you notice it on the Sony, I think you MIGHT notice it on the Runco. The Runco and Sony IRIS should be about the same most of the time, the Runco IRIS was roughly comparable to a Sony vw70's or vw90's IRIS, except that Tree of Life scene goofed it, but in all fairness the Runco IRIS is a lot better than most IRIS's. I don't have enough experience with the new Sony IRIS's to say one way or another. I didn't have a Sony side-by-side at the time, so to correct myself, I should have said I remember the Sony vw90 handling the tree of life scene better (I didn't mean it was definitely better across the board, we'll see), but I certainly cannot really compare all different scenes and make an assessment of the IRIS after it's been more than a year since I've seen the Sony.

The Runco IRIS is way better than the Benq w7000 IRIS, there is no comparison there for sure.

I didn't notice it really except in the Tree of Life test, well I did notice it maybe twice during Falling Skies episode. I had very limited time to see the Runco since the guy that owned it was actually selling it since he was moving to NY (no room), and he gave it to my IT friend to clean the projector up before he sold it to another guy who paid $4000 something I believe, then my friend had the fun time of installing it for the new owner. I had a chance to buy it first, but too much for my blood.



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post #22 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:27 PM
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I am very picky when it comes to DI's. When I was at a home theater meet and spent about 5 hours with a HW50ES I think I noticed it's action once. The Runco is on par, maybe a little less refined, but I don't think Runco/Planar has been tweaking it on a yearly basis like Sony has. The DI looks and performs the same as it did when it came out in 2007. A local member purchased an LS-5 last year and the DI performance looked the same to my eyes compared to my early 2008 PD8150. The only other "all the time usable" DI I've seen was on the Samsung SP-A800B and NuVision ProVu P2 I had. The Epson's, Vivitek's, Mitsubishi's, and BenQ''s I've owned didn't make the cut.

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post #23 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yeah, Harry Potter destroys my Planar. I had them side by side and it wasn't even close. But how often would I watch a movie like that? Was it watchable on the Planar? Yes, more than watchable. I guess I just don't need crazy high contrast to be happy. Some people are bothered by it where I see it as a minor distraction in the grand scheme of things. The 12000:1 or so i'm getting with higher ANSI contrast meets my needs in terms of contrast performance. Do I see a difference with the JVC, of course, but do I feel it's high contrast sets it apart in terms of overall image quality to some of the other projectors I've owned? Not at all.

Thor is another killer.
There are more movies out there then we think. Just about anything fantasy related or SCI FI related. Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Once Upon a Time, Falling Skies. Those are some TV series that also give it a problem. Falling Skies has to be the darkest freaking TV series I've ever seen, sometimes I feel like changing the GAMMA just because it's so damn dark in some episodes. Falling Skies is the Harry Potter of TV when it comes to black levels.



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post #24 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Boooo my thread has been hijacked by a dlp vs lcos war I was just curious about how a 5000 lumen dynamic iris jvc would turn out disregarding ansi contrast wouldn't the on off be higher than a sim2 super lumis (their high lumen model)?
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post #25 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 03:48 PM
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I agree somewhat, but depends on the movie you are watching. DLP's process the image differently, and different movies have different types of lighting techniques and just look different on different projectors. I usually prefer my JVC over a DLP, even over a Runco, but not always.

Though this goes against common knowledge, theoretically, dynamic IRIS's by using dynamic GAMMA can increase intrascene contrast at times when a scene does not have the white peaks near the limits of the gamma curve, it does it because it's essentially "exaggerating" the intrascene contrast of a scene that was not mastered or filmed to have high intrascene contrast because the gamma mastering was done at a more limited range for that scene. This is essentially sort of like Brilliant Color on some DLP's, but it's exaggerating it even more. Realistically though as films have gotten cleaner and better mastered, the DI's hurt the scene as much as it helps at times, because high intrascene contrast are much more common than before (because scenes are much more enhanced). Hence, the gamma corrections implemented with IRIS's can move the gamma around more if there is more room in the first place in a given scene (theoretically speaking). Think of it this way, compare a current Sci Fi movie like Oblivion to one in the 1950's, which one typically shows better contrast, exactly. In a way, you could say that DI's might actually look better on old movies so to speak where they have bad gamma mastering. For the most part, the DI does affect the peak whites as long as the gamma spread in a scene is there in the first place.

Though this is over-stating / over-analyzing, realistically the DI usually hits the white peaks in the scenes when we need the DI not to, because those types of scenes where the DI's kick in the most are often starfields or similar, and that's where it hurts it. Another complication is how bright you are watching the movie, since brightness is not linear, neither is the way we perceive contrast. So at times an IRIS might do a nice job while in other scenes it falls flat or looks too noticeable simply because of the way our eye perceived it at different brightness levels.

all i know is that my old epson had a dynamic iris and not only did it NOT help with lowering the black floor and increasing shadow details, it was annoying as heck. i'm positive DI's have gotten better, but i still can't imagine ever using one. it literally needs to be instant and predictive for me to consider it useful

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post #26 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 03:55 PM
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Thor is another killer.
There are more movies out there then we think. Just about anything fantasy related or SCI FI related. Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, Once Upon a Time, Falling Skies. Those are some TV series that also give it a problem. Falling Skies has to be the darkest freaking TV series I've ever seen, sometimes I feel like changing the GAMMA just because it's so damn dark in some episodes. Falling Skies is the Harry Potter of TV when it comes to black levels.

there's a lot more movies/shows/video games that 'NEED' good on/off contrast than those that don't in my collection. it took me a long time to get passed the idea that ANSI contrast is the most important part of of good picture quality. i'm glad i bought my last projector based on user comments and not pro tests. and now that i have, i think i understand why i preferred the CRT's so much more than plasmas too. in short, ANSI contrast is 'easy' to produce at a level equal to my eyes. in fact, the samsung f8500 is displaying better ansi contrast than i can see. at it's highest settings a bright image on screen prevents me from seeing the shadow details(like trying to see the road in the dark when a car drives by with it's high beams on). if i cover up the area with my hand, i can see the shadow details again, so i know it's my eyes and not the display.

anyway, watching a dark scene with good blacks is terrible on 99% of the displays on the market today. watching something bright looks good on pretty much everything. so i'm always more concerned with how dark scenes are displayed, and if black can look black without having something bright blasting my eyes at the same time.

i'm always sensitive to black performance because i always have 'black' reference around the darkened room. this is why i still go with a grey screen. i have nothing 'white' in the room for reference, so the 'bright grey' becomes white in my mind, but because the black borders of the screen, and the black paint on the wall still maintain a darker black than anything on screen, i can clearly notice even the jvc doesn't produce true black in dark scenes. on bright scenes it looks completely black, so if anything i'd give up brightness for even deeper blacks on the dark scenes

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post #27 of 32 Old 08-23-2013, 05:21 PM
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You almost at a certain point start feel like telling these companies what to do then yell duh at them!

Duh netflix rent video games and 3d blu rays duh!

The biggest Duh of the century goes out to the management of Blockbuster to how slow they were to react to Redbox + Netflix + Vudu + Cable On-Demand Streaming, I'm sure given their previous corporate presence that they already had the vendor relationships with the licensing channels to get it done. I know nothing is easy when you're a big bloated bureaucracy, but if it means the difference of existing or not existing, it better get done...

Not that I care, but that was the most obvious collapse I've ever seen, I saw that coming 10 years ago.



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post #28 of 32 Old 08-24-2013, 12:33 AM
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Boooo my thread has been hijacked by a dlp vs lcos war I was just curious about how a 5000 lumen dynamic iris jvc would turn out disregarding ansi contrast wouldn't the on off be higher than a sim2 super lumis (their high lumen model)?

I think the question was answered in the 1st few posts. To go much further in comparison is difficult as it's hard to compare 2 projectors when one of them doesn't exist!
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post #29 of 32 Old 08-24-2013, 05:53 PM
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How about this?

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101929

Not really close to what you are talking about though. I think we would be more likely to see this from Sony and their use of LCoS rather than JVC, but who knows.

I agree though, it seems like if they developed a dual lamp chassis they could deliver a 'grand' home theater experience within the $100K theater segment based on their quality and reliability over the years.

Leaving that segment open to a company like Runco frown.gif is a travesty. Thankfully there are other options which are out there.


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post #30 of 32 Old 08-24-2013, 06:00 PM
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How about this?

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101929

Not really close to what you are talking about though. I think we would be more likely to see this from Sony and their use of LCoS rather than JVC, but who knows.

I agree though, it seems like if they developed a dual lamp chassis they could deliver a 'grand' home theater experience within the $100K theater segment based on their quality and reliability over the years.

Leaving that segment open to a company like Runco frown.gif is a travesty. Thankfully there are other options which are out there.

This idea has been talked about before and it seemed the consensus between members posting was that there most likely isn't a large market for JVC to bring a product to market and make enough profit from the product to be worth it for them. The key feature JVC is known for is contrast and to bring a product like that to market would mean it wouldn't perform like their lower cost machines. The Sim2 Lumis is a hard projector to beat in terms of picture quality and I don't think a brighter JVC (with even less contrast) could touch the PQ the Lumis produces. JVC projectors are already bright enough for probably >80% of the home theater screens being used by consumers anyways. If the market changes and people start to want even larger screens (think 12'+ wide screens) they could then rethink their position. They would have to do a complete redesign and definitely need to have a much nicer lens to compete with these ultra high end DLPs that already put out those kind of lumen numbers and have plenty of contrast.

Also, what's wrong with Runco?

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