JVC RS1 Oversaturation Issue--Tweakable? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Not to open this old can of worms but one of these just popped up on craigslist for $750 ... I was all set to snatch it up when I saw all the posts about oversaturation. I know some posters thought it wasn't really an issue but I think that florescent green grass would bother me. So ...

Is there a way to tone this down or mitigate it? I understand that there is no perfect fix, but can it be made more bearable, shall we say?
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post #2 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 02:47 PM
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If you click the link at the top of the post that say edit thread you can change the title. Not familiar with the gamut issue of the RS1 but if you were to spend another $2000 on a video processor you could probably fix it.. but then again, might as well buy a new JVC that has no issues..
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post #3 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Doug! That fixed it.

Any RS1 owners want to weigh in?
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post #4 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 03:47 PM
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I went round a similar path a few years ago with the later HD350 (RS10). The cheapest fix is just to turn the colour and tint controls down a bit...however that in no way fixes the problem in terms of accuracy but for some that is enough. Next up is a used Lumagen HDP or HDQ that has a limited control over the primaries and again while it won't measure accurately, subjectively it is a step up from the above option.

Beyond that you get into external CMS options such as the Video EQ I tried for a while: It pretty much nailed the colours spot on, but the back up was very poor and I sold mine on and replaced it with a Lumagen Mini3D which now has the later 125 point automatic calibration. The colours, greyscale and gamma are absolutely spot on (using an i1D3 Pro sensor) though I now have the later X35 (RS46) which has more accurate colours to start with. However the Mini3D costs more than used RS40 let alone a used RS1/HD1, so it's a disproportionate fix for an older projector I suppose.

There is also the DVDO Duo which has a CMS, but I'm not familiar with this model (I did own the more basic DVDO Edge that was used along with the Video EQ). Not sure at all about used prices for the Duo.

At least that should give you some real world experience even if the 'best' fix isn't financially viable.

What might be worth looking out for is a used RS20/HD750 as it has a built in CMS (you'd still need some way to calibrate it though as you would for most of the above options to get the most out of them). The RS20 has 50,000:1 contrast compared to 15,000:1 of the RS1 so the blacks are also much deeper for the same brightness level. It may work out cheaper than an RS1 plus an external CMS though.
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post #5 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for weighing in, Kelvin! (Nice name smile.gif)

Turning color down just means that over saturated colors like green look more natural, while the other colors then become under saturated, right?

What about flesh tones? That is what I notice most about color accuracy. Do flesh tones on the JVCs look over saturated as well?

And how do you turn down tint? That's more of a color balance setting, isn't it?

Thanks again!
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post #6 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 04:04 PM
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Reducing the main colour control really just reduces the luminance of the colours not the saturation, so it's a very crude way to 'weaken' the overly strong colours. I found that grass looked too neon and people's lips were too red (and faces too). Since it isn't really an accurately calibrated solution, it's just a matter of tweaking by eye. Similar for the tint control. I think I ran something like -8 colour and -4 tint before I got the HDQ (and also when I demo'd my HD350 when I sold it since the buyer wanted to see it on it's own without external correction).

It's far from ideal, but many owners of RS1, RS10 & RS15 seem to have managed without a CMS. I remember seeing a used HD1 for sale at a dealers (with an exceptionally good all black demo room) when I owned a more accurate Panasonic AE2000. I left wishing I could swap despite the '2000 being more accurate. If your room isn't a complete black pit then the oversaturation may even help to some degree to combat wash out of light walls and ceiling reflecting back to the screen. So it's not all bad news.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #7 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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My ht room is pitch black--painted black with total light control.

I can't stand red faces all the way back to my old panasonic cathode ray TV with the "red push" issues. I need to see natural looking skin tones. Hopefully I'll get a chance to demo this JVC and see how they look ...

Do you think $750 is a fair price for it?
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post #8 of 15 Old 09-01-2013, 09:19 PM
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More than fair, actual a pretty good price. I have 1 I used for couple years before I purchased a new 4810 I never thought the color was that bad off with some setting
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post #9 of 15 Old 09-03-2013, 09:14 AM
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I have had one for six years now and it keeps going strong (5-6 bulb). The colors never really bothered me and only notice the oversaturation on a few movies. For $750 you could buy and try it and if it does not work likely sell it on for $750. I bought a Benq W7000 last year and still perfer to use the JVC RS-1 for everything but Sports & 3D (does not do 3D).
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post #10 of 15 Old 09-03-2013, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The thing that is making me cry right now is that I just saw an ad in the classifieds here from a guy who was selling one where I live for $350!!!! The ad is still open but he put it up two months ago and isn't responding to my PMs ...

$350 ... man oh man.
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post #11 of 15 Old 09-03-2013, 07:59 PM
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This old debate was founded in verifiable science, but is still highly subjective in home viewing. I can tell you as a cinematographer, skin tones are never consistent project to project, and often scene to scene....quite intentionally. It comes down to your sensitivity and tolerance. It is quite subjective. Even watching my own work, I can accept some modest variance from what we delivered. In the film world we see colors rendered differently with the different film stock manufacturers (Eastman vs Fuji for instance) all the time. Some Fuji was reknowned for delivering oversaturated greens and reds. In fact, it was often chosen for that reason.

So, I have always been very tolerant with the RS1 because I am used to seeing variations that are "normal"...and I would have no way to tell if it was delivered that way or not (unless I did it). Even then, I once was in the middle of a telecine session for a commercial where the first scene on roll one was on a soccer field at early morning. Every blade of grass was backlit, therefore insanely bright green. The ad exec's comment was "The grass isn't that color in" wherever. I tried to explain the effect of sunlight on his perception, and I pointed out how good the people/actors looked. It didn't matter. That grass was just not right to him. Of course, his point was ridiculous. rolleyes.gif

The RS1 would not be chosen as a reference for a telecine session, but I can tolerate the RS1 at home. I'll happily take a bit of color variance to gain the great step in native (no-iris mad.gif) on/off contrast. Go for the deal. smile.gif
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post #12 of 15 Old 09-04-2013, 01:09 AM - Thread Starter
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You mean the $750 deal, right?

The $350 guy appears to be AWOL.

I see what you're saying about color variation and the eye of the beholder, but I guess what concerns me is the inability to tweak the setting myself. JVC decided for whatever reason that they were going to set green saturation higher than normal, and weren't going to let the end user readjust it ... I find that troubling.

But I'm still willing to give the RS1 a shot if the $759 guy still has it for sale.
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post #13 of 15 Old 09-04-2013, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post

You mean the $750 deal, right?

The $350 guy appears to be AWOL.

I see what you're saying about color variation and the eye of the beholder, but I guess what concerns me is the inability to tweak the setting myself. JVC decided for whatever reason that they were going to set green saturation higher than normal, and weren't going to let the end user readjust it ... I find that troubling.

But I'm still willing to give the RS1 a shot if the $759 guy still has it for sale.

If you are that focused on the color issues, once you see it, you can not unsee it and you will hate it. I would skip it if I were you. I felt the same way about a projector once (thought the deal was worth the bad color accuracy) and after I got it, I hated it. Inaccurate color is painful once you know it is there and see it..
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post #14 of 15 Old 09-04-2013, 02:29 PM
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OP,

I have had a rs2 and just lived with the gamut issue by reducing color. If you're not use to an accurate picture, I don't think you would have a tough time adjusting to the color.

What display are you coming from? Most flat panels I have seen are not that accurate but people fall in love with them anyway. If your using a lower end projector, JVC's contrast will blow you away.

Even though I now have a much more accurate rs55, I still use thr rs2 and very much enjoy it's picture.

By the way, I would be more concerned about it's convergence and focus than the gamut issues.

For $750, I would be all over it.

I would much rather have it than any flat panel tv in that price range or even double.

Tom

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #15 of 15 Old 09-04-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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This is going to sound ridiculous, Tom, but I'm coming from a lowly 720p Sanyo PLV-Z3. My assumption is that if I get the JVC it will indeed look like a huge upgrade, especially in black levels, where the Z3 is particularly weak. I have a spyder2 colormeter which works wonders with my laptop but I've been unable to calibrate the Z3 grayscale to my liking and I'm particularly bothered by unnatural flesh tones so I hope that won't be a problem with the JVC ...

On a related note, one of the members here has offered to sell me his Sharp Z30000 for $1800 ... Apart from the fact that it is 3D capable, how would you all compare the Sharp to the JVC?
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