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post #121 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

@stevenjw,

from what I can see, the 10.2 Gbps chips can handle any framerate we need - but not in the highest quality. How much of a difference the quality loss makes depends on the native format of the source and the processing capabilities of the source device. E.g. let's say (just for the sake of discussion) that some 4K Blu-Ray music concert were encoded in 60fps 12bit 4:4:4. The source device would have to downconvert that to 60fps 8bit 4:2:0 in order to send it for a 10.2 Gbps HDMI input port. The conversion from 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 is not too much of a problem. It's a bit sad, but I think for normal movie content you probably wouldn't notice a big difference even side by side. The downconversion from 12bit (or 10bit) to 8bit is a bigger problem. Here it depends on whether the source device can apply dithering, or whether it simply rounds down to 8bit. If the source device can dither, the quality loss should be pretty small. But we don't know if the source device will be able to dither. We also don't know if 4K Blu-Ray will support 60fps encoding. There's still too much we don't know.

Of course Sony could have waited for 18 Gbps HDMI chips. But how long will it take until those are available? I don't know that. Maybe it would have meant delaying the new projectors by many months, and that would have screwed up the usual yearly release schedule. So maybe they only had the chance to either release 10.2 Gbps projectors now, or skip a whole generation? Don't know...

Well, at least I can count on MadVR and JRiver on my HTPC to handle it. biggrin.gif

I thought I read in one of the threads that some Panasonic (?) LCD displays were out (?) with the 18GB chip. I could be wrong, hence use of the ? marks. I figured Sony decided to go with the 10.2 chips now in order to make their yearly cycle, but I still think they could have released the PS4 and UHD displays with 10.2 and held off on their projectors for a couple of months. I guess it depends on when the 18GB chips are available, but don't think Sony sells a ton of projectors, so it's not a question of supply requirements. I'd much rather wait on the $2500 upgrade if it means doing it right the first time. It makes no sense to send out a Tech to make this change if the only benefit I get in viewing 4K from their player and not a future 4K BD player without dithering down to make that work. Sadly, I guess that's what will happen and I'll look to upgrade my Oppo to whatever 4K player they come out with at that point. I'm confident that they'll do it right too. Hopefully, you're right and I won't notice what I'm missing.

Thanks, and thank you for MadVR!

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post #122 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

@Manni01,

here's some info about how RED cameras store their recordings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE

Looks like RGB from start to finish. I could imagine that hobby film makers might find 4:4:4 16bit intimidating, but I can't imagine that it's a problem for Hollywood studios, considering how many millions the shooting of most movies cost today. If I do the math, the storage of 1 hour of uncompressed RGB 4:4:4 footage in 48bit (16bit per channel) consumes just 4.2 TB. If you just want to store a 2.5 hour movie uncompressed, that'd cost you about 500 USD worth of harddisk space. Why would a studio *NOT* do that? They'd be stupid not to. But as I said, I don't really know in which format studio masters are *processed*. Processing is a different thing to storage...

Surely you understand that in order to make a 2 hours movie the amount of footage is usually 10 to 100 times more than the end product? Different takes for each shot, shots which end up being cut in editing, etc. The worry is not the 100TB of storage and the cost of that, the question is about moving around larger than necessary files, and the actual capacity of the storage interface in the camera re bandwidth. The SSDs within the cameras can't take TBs of data AND handle the bandwidth in real-time, that's for sure. Yes you can swap them when they are full and unload into a server or similar, but still you're going to try to get the best compromise between space and quality, especially for feature films or documentaries.

Anyway unless someone actually knows in which format 4K movies are actually shot and stored (and knowing it's bayer compressed and not RGB as in the wiki you linked doesn't tell us the bit depth or chroma subsampling), it's my ignorance vs yours on that specific subject, so let's move on smile.gif.
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post #123 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

I thought I read in one of the threads that some Panasonic (?) LCD displays were out (?) with the 18GB chip.

Yes, I've read somewhere that Panasonic is the only company who has access to 18Gbps chips at the moment. Not sure why, maybe they're building them themselves? Don't know...

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Surely you understand that in order to make a 2 hours movie the amount of footage is usually 10 to 100 times more than the end product? Different takes for each shot, shots which end up being cut in editing, etc. The worry is not the 100TB of storage and the cost of that, the question is about moving around larger than necessary files, and the actual capacity of the storage interface in the camera re bandwidth. The SSDs within the cameras can't take TBs of data AND handle the bandwidth in real-time, that's for sure. Yes you can swap them when they are full and unload into a server or similar, but still you're going to try to get the best compromise between space and quality, especially for feature films or documentaries.

Done some more reading. Look here:

http://www.theblackandblue.com/2011/03/12/how-to-calculate-red-camera-data-rates/

Seems that RED cameras record their "RAW" files compressed with a fairly good compression ratio. It's not lossless. But it's the full Bayer sensor data. Which means RED recordings are definitely not 4:2:2. They're not 4:4:4, either. I'd say they're Bayer:Bayer:Bayer RGB, so to say. And YCbCr plays no role. It's all about the red, green and blue photosensors of the Bayer sensor. After demosaicing you get RGB 4:4:4.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Anyway unless someone actually knows in which format 4K movies are actually shot and stored, it's my ignorance vs yours on that specific subject, so let's move on smile.gif.

From what I can see RED cameras don't even have the capability to shoot YCbCr. And according to wiki film scanners also work in RGB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

So I would say the typical sources of studio masters (film scanners and digital cameras) usually produce some sort of RGB. Whether studios actually store the masters in that format, we don't know. For all we know, they could convert them to YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 and store them in that format. I find that somewhat unlikely, but it's possible. So I agree, we don't know, so let's move on.
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post #124 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 03:07 PM
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Thanks for the info above Madshi.

And yes, Panasonic built their own HDMI 2.0 full speed chipsets and are not sharing with their competitors smile.gif
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post #125 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks for the info above Madshi.

And yes, Panasonic built their own HDMI 2.0 full speed chipsets and are not sharing with their competitors smile.gif

Well that explains a lot. And since they're not sharing and Sony carries more weight than Panasonic IMHO, perhaps 10.2GB might just be all that's necessary for support of any 4K BD standard to come.

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post #126 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 03:50 PM
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The problem with waiting, is the deal expires in about 3 months. Its posted somewhere. I think you have to consider it as just $650 now and something more. later, maybe.

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post #127 of 146 Old 12-05-2013, 07:12 PM
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The problem with waiting, is the deal expires in about 3 months. Its posted somewhere. I think you have to consider it as just $650 now and something more. later, maybe.

Correct, Sony told us the deal ends, end of March.

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post #128 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 12:45 AM
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Here's a link to an interview with Walt Disney's VP of Production Systems:

http://www.v-net.tv/walt-disney-studios-preparing-for-uhd-future/

Good interview, IMHO. He's saying that he thinks HDR and HFR might bring a higher benefit to consumers than the resolution jump from 2K to 4K. Which kind of supports what I've heard through the grapevine, namely that studios are pushing for higher specs (especially HDR and HFR) for 4K Blu-Ray.
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post #129 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 03:49 AM
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That kind of surprises me, it always seems like they want to give the bare minimum to customers, to create a differentiation between home and theater.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #130 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 03:54 AM
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Thanks Madshi. interesting stuff although he could have said re 4K below 60" that improvements in gamut, compression, colour depth and chroma subsampling should be more visible than improvements due to solely resolution on smaller screens. People are focusing on resolution and how big a screen you need to see the difference because at the moment all we have is 4K in rec-709, usually 420 and often 8 bits, maybe 422 10bits or 12 bits for some demo material.

If we get Bluray 4K with H265/HEVC (4 times less compression than in bluray as the codec is twice as efficient and we'll have twice the storage with BDXL 100gb to start with), 422 and 10 or 12 bits, this will reduce banding and compression artifacts on all screens, even those smaller than 60". Unfortunately we're likely to get x.v.color at best so likely not much difference re expanded gamut, but still all the other improvements should make a significant difference, even on living room friendly display with a conservative WAF. So not very impressed with his technical thinking overall.

Yes HDR is interesting, but like larger gamut it probably needs new light technology, at least in projectors (maybe OLED can achieve this already in TVs, I don't know). HFR is interesting for TV content and sports, maybe concerts, but I almost never watch these and higher frame rates in movies, for me, just don't work (yet). Maybe someone will be able to get an HFR movie which doesn't look like a soap opera (Cameron? Let's hope!), but the Hobbit didn't succeed in avoiding that IMHO.

If you listen around 6:30, he says that most special effects movies today are still shot in 2K because of the storage and rendering costs issues for special effects in 4K, and that he hopes that if technology evolves they might be able to shoot and deliver everything in 4K in the future, but they are not there yet (they can with live action, but not when lots of special effects are needed in the movie). This proves the point I was trying to make regarding how unlikely we were going to get 444 with Bluray 4K, as they are not even shooting in 4K most of the time, so thanks for providing the confirmation we needed smile.gif.
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post #131 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

That kind of surprises me, it always seems like they want to give the bare minimum to customers, to create a differentiation between home and theater.

I was surprised, too. Maybe it was always the CE companies that held the specs back and not the movie studios? I don't know. At least I heard some time ago that some of the studios had already wanted a bigger gamut and higher bitdepth for Blu-Ray, but failed to get it into the spec.

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Thanks Madshi. interesting stuff although he could have said re 4K below 60" that improvements in gamut, compression, colour depth and chroma subsampling should be more visible than improvements due to solely resolution on smaller screens. People are focusing on resolution and how big a screen you need to see the difference because at the moment all we have is 4K in rec-709, usually 420 and often 8 bits, maybe 422 10bits or 12 bits for some demo material.

If we get Bluray 4K with H265/HEVC (4 times less compression than in bluray as the codec is twice as efficient and we'll have twice the storage with BDXL 100gb to start with), 422 and 10 or 12 bits, this will reduce banding and compression artifacts on all screens, even those smaller than 60". Unfortunately we're likely to get x.v.color at best so likely not much difference re expanded gamut, but still all the other improvements should make a significant difference, even on living room friendly display with a conservative WAF.

We have twice the storage size *if* 4K Blu-Ray is going to use 100GB discs, which is not confirmed yet. And h265 *aims* at being twice as efficient. Current h265 encoders are far from that goal, from what I've heard. But let's say encoders do manage to become twice as efficient as h264 and let's say 4K Blu-Ray is going to use 100GB discs, then we have a 4x improvement, that's true - but we also have 4x the amount of pixels (with 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 even more than 4x). So it should be a wash overall in terms of compression artifacts. Maybe a small improvement.

I agree with you that (lack of) banding and most of all a bigger gamut should be visible advantages on smaller screens as well.

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If you listen around 6:30, he says that most special effects movies today are still shot in 2K because of the storage and rendering costs issues for special effects in 4K, and that he hopes that if technology evolves they might be able to shoot and deliver everything in 4K in the future, but they are not there yet (they can with live action, but not when lots of special effects are needed in the movie). This proves the point I was trying to make regarding how unlikely we were going to get 444 with Bluray 4K, as they are not even shooting in 4K most of the time, so thanks for providing the confirmation we needed smile.gif.

Special effects rendering costs are probably not going to be cheaper for 4:2:2 than they are for 4:4:4, because special effects are rendered by a PC (cluster) and those usually render in RGB, AFAIK. So no, IMHO the interview does not help to support your point at all, sorry. If you're concentrating on storage costs again (which really makes no sense, considering how cheap storage is these days), please be aware that storing data in 4:2:2 only saves 33% file size compared to 4:4:4. That's not a whole lot of saved space compared to losing half of the color information.

From a logical point of view, the main problem with special effects should be the rendering time (which is 4x as high, during which the computer is busy, letting the users wait for results), not the storage cost. Especially considering that while you may have 200 hours of filmed material for a movie, you don't do 200 hours worth of special effects renderings for a movie. You can see that in extras: Deleted scenes in Blu-Rays often still contain a green/blue screen and come without special effects. That would suggest that special effects are mostly only rendered for scenes that have a good chance of making it into the final movie cut. That should be much less than 10 hours of special effects renderings. If you calculate the cost of storing that, it amounts to pretty much nothing.

But I thought we had agreed on moving on from the 4:2:2 vs. 4:4:4 discussion?
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post #132 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 05:16 AM
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100Gb (triple layer) BDXL: has been confirmed by Singulus who is the main provider of duplication equipment as being the first stage for Bluray 4K. They haven't said it like that, but that's what it means. Feel free to wait for the official specs if you don't believe me smile.gif. I'm sure that at some point the 4 layers of BDXL will be used, and that would give us 128Gb, which is significantly better without providing such large amounts that we can sacrifice 33% of the storage space for little to no visual improvement.

In fact, it doesn't make any sense to use 33% more space when that space could be used to achieve less compression for a better end result. I'm sure you would agree it would make much more of a difference visually for video content than using 444 and wasting 33% bandwidth for compression.

You are correct that 4K is 4 times the amount of pixels of bluray, so following your calculations it would mean that using 444 instead of 422 would lead to WORSE compression than on bluray. Doesn't make any sense to me for little to no visual improvement, in fact most probably worse quality due to more compression artifacts.

Let's see what the Bluray 4K specs are when they are published. I say 422 in 10 or 12 bits in x.v.color (if we're lucky) on 100GB BDXL support because it makes more sense given what the hardware can do now and the limitations of both storage space and current display technologies.
You say 444 12 bits or 16 bits in rec2020 or DCI on an unlimited size support because the sky is not the limit.

Anyway, I'm tired of this, you have to be right, so be right. This is OT here anyway. I'm out of here and will abstain from discussing anything with you in the future as we always end up in that situation (my fault as much as yours, not blaming anyone). smile.gif
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post #133 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

so following your calculations it would mean that using 444 instead of 422 would lead to WORSE compression than on bluray.

Whether it would be worse than Blu-Ray or not I can't say. Depends on the final disc size and encoder efficiency. But yes, as far as I understand, using 4:4:4 means that overall compression artifacts should be slightly worse than with 4:2:2, when using the same bitrate. In the same way as 4:2:2 should be slightly worse than 4:2:0, when using the same bitrate.

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You say 444 12 bits or 16 bits in rec2020 or DCI because the sky is not the limit.

No. I said that I'm sure that we'll get at least 10bit 4:2:0 at a minimum, but my best guess is that it will be 10bit 4:4:4 (or maybe 12bit 4:4:4, if we're very lucky). I didn't say anything about the gamut.

(Last post about chroma subsampling.)
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post #134 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I was surprised, too. Maybe it was always the CE companies that held the specs back and not the movie studios? I don't know. At least I heard some time ago that some of the studios had already wanted a bigger gamut and higher bitdepth for Blu-Ray, but failed to get it into the spec.
We have twice the storage size *if* 4K Blu-Ray is going to use 100GB discs, which is not confirmed yet. And h265 *aims* at being twice as efficient. Current h265 encoders are far from that goal, from what I've heard. But let's say encoders do manage to become twice as efficient as h264 and let's say 4K Blu-Ray is going to use 100GB discs, then we have a 4x improvement, that's true - but we also have 4x the amount of pixels (with 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 even more than 4x). So it should be a wash overall in terms of compression artifacts. Maybe a small improvement.

And lets not forget that 10-bit encoding encoding actually requires less bandwidth than 8-bit encoding:
http://www.ateme.com/Why-does-10-bit-save-bandwidth

And also, I'd guess it's likely that even with existing encoders, encoded bitrate does not scale linearly with pixels, ie I'm guessing 4k will require less than 4x the bitrate (all else equal) compared to 1080p.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #135 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And lets not forget that 10-bit encoding encoding actually requires less bandwidth than 8-bit encoding:
http://www.ateme.com/Why-does-10-bit-save-bandwidth

And also, I'd guess it's likely that even with existing encoders, encoded bitrate does not scale linearly with pixels, ie I'm guessing 4k will require less than 4x the bitrate (all else equal) compared to 1080p.

True and true.
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post #136 of 146 Old 12-06-2013, 09:09 AM
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Ok, now we got the new spec, is there any information of when a 4K player,  other than the sony and red servers, and 4K movies on discs will likely materialize, like mid year, late year, 2015....?

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post #137 of 146 Old 12-07-2013, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, now we got the new spec, is there any information of when a 4K player,  other than the sony and red servers, and 4K movies on discs will likely materialize, like mid year, late year, 2015....?

There will probably be statements/announcements related to the Blu-ray 4K timetable coming out at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) next month. The hope is the first generation of Blu-ray 4K players and the first release of 4K movie discs (we are talking about actual native 4k UHD and not 'mastered in 4K') in the 4th quarter of 2014. Also 4K Netfilx steaming service and players are in the works and may be out in 2014. Directv is working on 4K and is probably two years away from offering new 4K enabled DVRs and the first 4K channels. Again we may hear about some or all of these future 4K UHD products at CES.

By the way, my HDMI 2.0 related blog (from October) is back up on the Projector Reviews web site - HERE.


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There will probably be statements/announcements related to the Blu-ray 4K timetable coming out at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) next month. The hope is the first generation of Blu-ray 4K players and the first release of 4K movie discs (we are talking about actual native 4k UHD and not 'mastered in 4K') in the 4th quarter of 2014. Also 4K Netfilx steaming service and players are in the works and may be out in 2014. Directv is working on 4K and is probably two years away from offering new 4K enabled DVRs and the first 4K channels. Again we may hear about some or all of these future 4K UHD products at CES.

By the way, my HDMI 2.0 related blog (from October) is back up on the Projector Reviews web site - HERE.


.

Thanks Ron, that provides some measure of a 4K timeline for mainstream products.  Although I'm quite happy with my Sony VW95 projector, and would love to upgrade to the new UHD 600 projector, I have some hesitation that the hdmi 2.0 in that pj may not be able to take advantage of some of the expanded color gamut and bit depth that may be available on the new 4K discs/players.  I'm have no doubt the new Sony 4K pj makes current 1080p stuff look even better, but for me that wouldn't be sufficient if I found out in next 9 months or so that the hdmi 2.0 in that projector may not present what the new 4K discs have available. The real kick in the head, as with all electronics, is that new 4K pjs with the complete implemented hdmi 2.0 will display the full monty and likely less expensive for same quality.

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post #139 of 146 Old 12-07-2013, 01:16 PM
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So, if I wanted to build a 4K htpc in preparation for a 4k projector next year, should I wait to purchase the MB and CPU? I'm sure the video card should be purchased when they are hdmi 2.0 that can do 18 Gbps. Also, how do h.265/HEVC play in this role with computer components? Is it possible that if a htpc is built with hdmi 2.0, could h.265 be upgraded software?

Right now I have a htpc and I have most of the components to build a 4K htpc by just substituting a new MB and video card. But if I need to get another cpu, that's no problem also
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post #140 of 146 Old 12-07-2013, 02:48 PM
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Currently h265 decoders are a bit on the slow side (not very optimized yet, not much asm code, AFAIK), but that will probably change in the near future. Current GPUs can't hardware decode h265, so you'll need the CPU for that, and it will need to have enough juice. We don't know exactly what kind of CPU will be needed. Depends on how much decoders can be optimized, and also on how high the 4K Blu-Ray specs will go. Decoding 4Kp60 will be much more demanding than decoding 4Kp24. Of course for movies 4Kp24 should be all that we need (except for The Hobbit and Avatar 2 etc).

Probably sooner or later GPUs might be able to hardware decode h265, too. But I don't know when that will be the case. And it will need a new spec from Microsoft, because h265 decoding via DXVA is not specified at the moment, AFAIK.

CPU speed doesn't increase that much, anymore, year after year, so you'd probably be fine buying a new mainboard+CPU today, as long as the CPU is fast enough. The key problem is that we don't know how fast it will have to be exactly. So it might make sense to wait. Or to aim high. Or to be ready to upgrade the CPU again later...
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post #141 of 146 Old 12-07-2013, 04:36 PM
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Currently h265 decoders are a bit on the slow side (not very optimized yet, not much asm code, AFAIK), but that will probably change in the near future. Current GPUs can't hardware decode h265, so you'll need the CPU for that, and it will need to have enough juice. We don't know exactly what kind of CPU will be needed. Depends on how much decoders can be optimized, and also on how high the 4K Blu-Ray specs will go. Decoding 4Kp60 will be much more demanding than decoding 4Kp24. Of course for movies 4Kp24 should be all that we need (except for The Hobbit and Avatar 2 etc).

Probably sooner or later GPUs might be able to hardware decode h265, too. But I don't know when that will be the case. And it will need a new spec from Microsoft, because h265 decoding via DXVA is not specified at the moment, AFAIK.

CPU speed doesn't increase that much, anymore, year after year, so you'd probably be fine buying a new mainboard+CPU today, as long as the CPU is fast enough. The key problem is that we don't know how fast it will have to be exactly. So it might make sense to wait. Or to aim high. Or to be ready to upgrade the CPU again later...

Thanks, this helps out a lot. Ill probably just hold off on upgrading the cpu unless I can get a good deal on a Intel core i7. Seem as if I can look for a MB, ill look for when newegg has been discounted. Everything else should be fine. I just hold the hdmi 2.0 video cards are not in the $1000 range to start
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post #142 of 146 Old 12-11-2013, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Monoprice now has a new series of RedMere HDMI cables rated at the 18 Gbps with lengths up to 15 ft. HERE is the link.

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post #143 of 146 Old 12-12-2013, 02:07 PM
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Hi Ron,

I'm sure you've already read this but just in case it might be of interest to others, I came across this initial report from the SMPTE which created a UHDTV ecosystem study group.

Very interesting, especially re 120p in UHDVT1 and the necessity to map the rec2020 and rec709 gamuts to each other during a transition period, and how not trivial a task it is.

Looks like we won't get fully rec2020 compatible displays for quite a while, so we shouldn't hold off getting non-perfect ones this year...

All this seems very much in flux, but it's good to see that some people are trying to find a more realistic compromise than ITU-BT2020 for the coming years.
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post #144 of 146 Old 12-12-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Ron,

I'm sure you've already read this but just in case it might be of interest to others, I came across this initial report from the SMPTE which created a UHDTV ecosystem study group.

Very interesting, especially re 120p in UHDVT1 and the necessity to map the rec2020 and rec709 gamuts to each other during a transition period, and how not trivial a task it is.

Looks like we won't get fully rec2020 compatible displays for quite a while, so we shouldn't hold off getting non-perfect ones this year...

All this seems very much in flux, but it's good to see that some people are trying to find a more realistic compromise than ITU-BT2020 for the coming years.

The real issue with the rec. 2020 color space is it is so wide that only OLED flat panel displays or projectors using RGB lasers can do it unless you are willing to take a big drop in light output that would result from using additional filters with other, more conventional, light sources to produce the highly saturated colors needed to produce the 2020 color space. It will be interesting to see what color space Blu-ray 4K supports.

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post #145 of 146 Old 12-12-2013, 04:25 PM
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Very very true and not any new news. What will the new Bluray standard be, my money is on xvYcc and nothing more. We aren't even going to get DCI. Besides, who out there in consumer land is bitching about Rec 709. Most think there are seeing every possible color, and some are depending on what they are smoking or whatever. The only reasons we are going to get the extra space provided by xvYcc is now the trade can advertise you get even more colors with UHD.

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post #146 of 146 Old 12-13-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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It would be technically possible for BD-4K to support multiple color spaces and lets say, for example, a disc is encoded with the extra wide BT2020 color space and the display only supports rec.709. The BD players could be required (for example) to support perhaps 4 different color spaces including 709 - xvYcc - DCI and 2020 and include the processing to remap from wider color spaces down to narrower color spaces. For example, if the BD title is encoded in 2020 color space the BD player and UHD display would negotiate to the widest color space that both can support and the BD player would do the conversion from what is used on the specific disc to a color space supported by the UHD display before outputting the UHD signal. This is similar to what is being done today when you connect a BD player (playing a 1080p disc) to a display device that only accepts 1080i, 720p or 480p. This is also similar to the negotiation to determine what version of audio is output via HDMI. This would require the BD-4K players to include the color space conversion processing, but it's possible that will be specified in the upcoming BD-4K spec.

Similar negotiation between the UHD source and UHD display will be needed for to arrive a the highest fidelity combination of chroma subsampling and bit depth this is supported by both devices. This will be especially needed to accommodate 10.2 Gbps versions of HDMI 2.0 as well as to not constrain the 18 Gbps implementations.



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