Sony VPL-VW500ES - 4k Projector - 2013 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1083 Old 09-29-2013, 07:35 PM
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Cinevia is pretty annoying and hasn't been fully cracked and it's been over a year. Seems like they are getting pretty good with DRM. Cinevia is pretty ingenious with its audio watermarks. AnyDVD just recently added a removal tool but it's only for PC playback. Its IMPOSSIBLE to copy a blu ray and get rid of Cinevia. At best you can get an older bluray player before Cinevia came into effect. You cannot play a cinevia disc on a current blu ray player. Could be a while before this new HDCP 2.2 is cracked. But, I would guess 90% of piracy is through Blu ray rips which Cinevia has no effect on.
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post #542 of 1083 Old 09-29-2013, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow39 View Post

If this is true, they are saying that the vw500 comes with hdmi 2.0 but doesn't have the hdcp 2.2 chipset. That makes no sense and would be a bad move on Sony's part. Sounds more like a Sony rep trying to take the heat off of why the price is so high in the US versus everywhere else. Though at the moment it really doesn't matter as the FMP-X1 is only sold and works for the US market. I just would like to know if the vw500es has HDCP 2.2 or not as I have one on preorder up here in Canada. I wish Sony and 4k weren't such a headache.

So will the FMP-X1 not be available is Canada?

How different are the vw500es and vw600es?
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post #543 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

So will the FMP-X1 not be available is Canada?

How different are the vw500es and vw600es?

According to this Post #8 from Sony, the FMP-X1 will NOT be available, nor work in Canada. rolleyes.gif

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post #544 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 10:17 AM
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$15K MSRP for this new Sony 4K projector and JVC doesn't have a native 4K projector this year. Oh well, guess I'll wait another year to upgrade, letting the dust settle and prices drop more.

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post #545 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 02:14 PM
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Has anyone figured out if the new VPL-600ES has less brightness in 3D over the 50ES because it lacks the lamp pulsing? I have the 50ES now but would be disappointed to loose any brightness.
Both are rated 1700Lumens and the 50ES is already on the dim side even on my SI 4K Solar 16:9 92" diagonal 1.3 gain.

Hard to give up anything with this kind of price jump.
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post #546 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 02:18 PM
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You can be pretty certain that it does have less brightness. At the MOST it would be the same. My friend has the 50ES and it was at least as bright in 3D as my 1000ES was (different rooms so obviously hard to compare directly). 3D brightness is the big downfall of the Sony 4k projectors, and the major reason I sold mine. I probably should have just gotten over that and enjoyed all the other things it did so well, though.

My screen is quite a bit different from yours, though, but if you already think its too dim at 92" I can't imagine what you would have thought about 3D on my 160" 2:35, .77 gain EN4k screen!
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post #547 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You can be pretty certain that it does have less brightness. At the MOST it would be the same. My friend has the 50ES and it was at least as bright in 3D as my 1000ES was (different rooms so obviously hard to compare directly). 3D brightness is the big downfall of the Sony 4k projectors, and the major reason I sold mine. I probably should have just gotten over that and enjoyed all the other things it did so well, though.

My screen is quite a bit different from yours, though, but if you already think its too dim at 92" I can't imagine what you would have thought about 3D on my 160" 2:35, .77 gain EN4k screen!

I'm confused: why is 3D brightness in particular an issue with the Sony 4K models? There seem to be a number of cheaper projectors that produce 3D that many are happy with.
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post #548 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 03:23 PM
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I guess you would have to ask Sony "why", but the 4k models dont use the lamp pulsing technique that their lower end units do to increase brightness in 3d. So the 4k Sony units seem to dim a greater percentage of their 2D output when in 3d mode. Its also probably a case where 4k projector owners tend to be pushing it on larger screens, so this drastic reduction in output is magnified. I would estimate that 3d lumens are less than 10% of 2d lumens on the Sony 1000.
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post #549 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 03:38 PM
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Sony can command premium pricing as they were first in class with true 4K and HDMi 2.0

 

Next year the playing field will change if they don't adapt they will loose just like for the music business against Apple :)

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post #550 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 03:59 PM
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Wow, yes indeed that is a big screen. I have a CIH screen and run 235:1 at 120", diagonal that is, 110" horizontal. Some 3D is available in 2.35:1 but to be honest the drop from 16:9 is hard to really notice. On my 1.3 gain screen it is acceptable
I would think at .77 gain and 160" this would be pretty dim.
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You can be pretty certain that it does have less brightness. At the MOST it would be the same. My friend has the 50ES and it was at least as bright in 3D as my 1000ES was (different rooms so obviously hard to compare directly). 3D brightness is the big downfall of the Sony 4k projectors, and the major reason I sold mine. I probably should have just gotten over that and enjoyed all the other things it did so well, though.

My screen is quite a bit different from yours, though, but if you already think its too dim at 92" I can't imagine what you would have thought about 3D on my 160" 2:35, .77 gain EN4k screen!
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post #551 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I'm confused: why is 3D brightness in particular an issue with the Sony 4K models? There seem to be a number of cheaper projectors that produce 3D that many are happy with.

I bought the Sony HW50ES because it had more lumens for 3D. The equivalent JVC boasted better blacks and contrast for 2D. The JVC also had lens memory and it was cheaper than
the Sony. I lost the lens memory, better blacks and contrast to gain the lumens, this was the advantage I wanted. If Sony cannot deliver on the 600ES then why would I even bother. Not going to take less, but could
settle for at least the same with the other gains.

Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 320-3D is $11,999 and boasts 4000 lumens in a single chip DLP , Sony has to be aware there are other great options out there.
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post #552 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 04:50 PM
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A Sony 600ES at $3K they would dominate the market, and every one who owns a projector would probably have purchased it at $15Gs may be 1% will!

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post #553 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 04:54 PM
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Does anyone know if the new projectors from Sony display 3D using 144Hz processing (72Hz per eye) to avoid the flicker that 48Hz per eye creates?

I can't enjoy 3D on my HW50ES due to the 48Hz flicker.

Furthermore, once they implement panels capable of switching at 144Hz, they could filter this mode down to Dark Frame Insertion (DFI). This would essentially insert black frames with a frequency of 72Hz, which is much more palatable than the 48Hz flicker with the DFI implementation in the HW50ES.

Here's a breakdown of the different schemes they could use with DFI: http://f.cl.ly/items/13392X0S3X29473P0X1x/DarkFrameInsertion-DifferentFrequencies.pdf

Since the HW50ES panels are limited to 120Hz (confirmed by Sony engineers), they best they can do for both 3D & DFI is 96Hz processing with 24p content... this leads to the offensive 48Hz flicker.

Would love to know if they're achieving 144Hz with the new panels... but naturally I can't find any actual useful specifications amongst all the marketing speak. 1 million gazillion:1 dynamic contrast -- *sigh*. A shame, b/c Sony SXRD static image contrast is quite good (albeit not JVC levels, of course).
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post #554 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 05:22 PM
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Interestingly, cine4home.de points out that DFI is now intermixed with MotionFlow options:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fprojektoren%2FSony_VPL-VW500%2FSony_VPL-VW500_Test.htm&act=url

I just wonder if any of those modes drive the panels at 144Hz or faster. Else we're still stuck with 48Hz flicker in 3D & using DFI. Anyone sensitive to flicker seen 3D or DFI on the new Sony projectors?
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post #555 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 05:26 PM
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The 1000ES was reviewed well in terms of 3D performance with NO issues with flickering. The 600ES uses the same SXRD panels as the 1000ES. This should translate into a flicker free 3D exerience even if they aren't refreshing at 144hz. DLP has only just started to use triple flash technology and even before then it didn't have a flicker issue so I don't think refresh rate is the sole determining factor when it comes to 3D flicker issues.
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post #556 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 05:29 PM
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post #557 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 05:50 PM
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There is a long thread on this projector. It is not suitable for HT use though the light source could be used in a HT machine someday. It really isn't considered by anybody except sony as a true laser machine. Its more akin to a laser pointer being used to ignite a consumable spinning phosphor wheel which produces the light. Go read the thread.

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post #558 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

A Sony 600ES at $3K they would dominate the market, and every one who owns a projector would probably have purchased it at $15Gs may be 1% will!

The lens probably cost Sony more than $3k.
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At least they will make a profit on the actual number they sell. In return for market domination, they would go out of business, and their competitors would dominate by default.

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post #560 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 07:08 PM
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Ok, thanks, so the 4K units don't use lamp pulsing.

Wouldn't a VW500 still be noticeably brighter for 3D than my current JVC RS55?
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post #561 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Ok, thanks, so the 4K units don't use lamp pulsing.

Wouldn't a VW500 still be noticeably brighter for 3D than my current JVC RS55?

It will be brighter. I've read all the "pro" reviews on the VW1000 and most of them said that the 3D was VERY good. They also mentioned it was bright enough and more so then the JVC. I think one review said it wasn't bright enough for his tastes. I think it really depends on how big your screen is.

Also, the HW50 was the exception with lamp pulsing. No other projector used lamp pulsing beforehand and I can attest that it is brighter then most 3D projectors I've owned.

We can't be sure that the VW500 isn't using lamp pulsing. This is coming from 1 sony rep who very well might not even know jack ****. I have to have something confirmed by at least 3 people before I might consider believing it biggrin.gif Anyhow, just grab a chepo benq or Acer DLP beamer and use that strictly for 3D. Whats another 1000 when I'm already spending almost 10 000. DLP is the shiznits for 3D.
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post #562 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

Has anyone figured out if the new VPL-600ES has less brightness in 3D over the 50ES because it lacks the lamp pulsing? I have the 50ES now but would be disappointed to loose any brightness.
Both are rated 1700Lumens and the 50ES is already on the dim side even on my SI 4K Solar 16:9 92" diagonal 1.3 gain.

Hard to give up anything with this kind of price jump.

Something does not sound right. With your projector and screen, you would be getting around 19 FL in 3D. That is far from dim. How much ambient light do you have in your room?

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post #563 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scanido View Post

According to this Post #8 from Sony, the FMP-X1 will NOT be available, nor work in Canada. rolleyes.gif

I talked to my dealer who recently spoke with his Sony rep and while there is no exact news of when 4K service will be available in Canada, they are working on it. Again, it's the damn CRTC that controls all content that comes into Canada that won't allow the server to work. They will need to release a Canadian version of the FMP X1 with some Canadian content. Europe most likely faces the same issues with content being restricted.

At least we will get Trailer Park Boys, Kenny vs. Spenny, and other great Canadian shows in 4k the they won't get in the US wink.gif
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post #564 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 09:09 PM
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Art posted his impressions of the vw600es at the projectorreviews blog. He had it in his house for several hours and got to see a lot more than at Celia. He states that he loved the pic quality, and 3d. The main difference between the it and the vw1000 are black levels. But apparently they are as good or better than the vw95, and that's with 1700 lumens. He states that the 4k pic quality is mind blowing and he would rather have it than the new jvc projectors, despite the black level advantage. Good read.

Link
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2013/10/01/sony-vpl-vw600es-projector-cedia-2013/#more-2170
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post #565 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Art posted his impressions of the vw600es at the projectorreviews blog. He had it in his house for several hours and got to see a lot more than at Celia. He states that he loved the pic quality, and 3d. The main difference between the it and the vw1000 are black levels. But apparently they are as good or better than the vw95, and that's with 1700 lumens. He states that the 4k pic quality is mind blowing and he would rather have it than the new jvc projectors, despite the black level advantage. Good read.

Link
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2013/10/01/sony-vpl-vw600es-projector-cedia-2013/#more-2170

I see that Art liked this one a little bit. biggrin.gif

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post #566 of 1083 Old 10-01-2013, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Art posted his impressions of the vw600es at the projectorreviews blog. He had it in his house for several hours and got to see a lot more than at Celia. He states that he loved the pic quality, and 3d. The main difference between the it and the vw1000 are black levels. But apparently they are as good or better than the vw95, and that's with 1700 lumens. He states that the 4k pic quality is mind blowing and he would rather have it than the new jvc projectors, despite the black level advantage. Good read.

Link
http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2013/10/01/sony-vpl-vw600es-projector-cedia-2013/#more-2170

This projector was a standout to my eyes at Cedia and good to see some confirmation from someone who has spent some quality time with one that all of us were not crazy who were impressed. biggrin.gif I assume that Carnival in Rio that Art mentions is the same 4k they were showing at Cedia and it looked insanely good!

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post #567 of 1083 Old 10-02-2013, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
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Something does not sound right. With your projector and screen, you would be getting around 19 FL in 3D. That is far from dim. How much ambient light do you have in your room?

Bat cave, walls are deep flat maroon, the ceiling is black. No outside light at all. PJ is 13.5 feet from the screen mounted in line with the top of the frame. Screen is a Screen Innovations
Solar 4K 1.3 gain ( actual measured is 1.37). Screen is CIH 120" diagonal for 2:35 and 95: for 16:9 .

In 3 D mode I run bright cinema mode, Cinema 1, RC off, gamma 9, sharpness min, . Glasses are on max brightness or level 3 of 4 cannot remember now. This is all I can recall, I can
fill in the settings not mentioned later if you feel I may have something amiss.

Watched Hugo in 3D late night and to be honest it was incredible. Could be a little brighter, and I did notice ghosting from time to time. Have never noticed the flicker that others have mentioned.
PQ was awsome, again aside from the feeling it was a little dim.

I'm just saying I would not want to loose brightness if I step up to the 600ES. Lot of money to loose out in any aspect.
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post #568 of 1083 Old 10-02-2013, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The 1000ES was reviewed well in terms of 3D performance with NO issues with flickering. The 600ES uses the same SXRD panels as the 1000ES. This should translate into a flicker free 3D exerience even if they aren't refreshing at 144hz. DLP has only just started to use triple flash technology and even before then it didn't have a flicker issue so I don't think refresh rate is the sole determining factor when it comes to 3D flicker issues.

I see flicker in 3d on the Sony 1000 and my wife refused to watch 3D on it because of flicker. Its the only part of 3D she complained about. And she never notices or comments on anything related to our audio or video.
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post #569 of 1083 Old 10-02-2013, 08:55 AM
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" Ok, those higher end JVC projectors at $8,000 and $12,000 will easily beat this Sony at black levels, but I’d certainly rather give up the difference in black levels (since the Sony’s damn good at them anyway) in exchange for 4K.  I have no doubts, I’d definitely spring the extra for the Sony were I able."

 

"Got to watch a chunk of Ultimate Wave Tahiti.  Think good 3D looks great now?  Can’t wait until I’m watching 3D in true 4K."

 

"Is Sony’s VPL-VW600ES worth $15K?   You all know the drill, it’s time vs. money.   10 years ago most 720p projectors sold for at least $4000.   Today, Optoma has half a dozen under $600.   So, sure, if you are in no hurry, or the money is tight, wait.  Certainly in 3 years there will be 4K projectors for well under $5000, or at least one would expect…  (The world seems to think 8K will be the standard by 2020, in fact, in one discussion I had at the show, it was suggested that Broadcast TV (and maybe satellite/cable) will skip true 4K and go right to 8K content, but out 6-7 years." Art!

 

 

 

 

Interesting 8K would be surreal, then you can feel the salt on your lips :)

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post #570 of 1083 Old 10-02-2013, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

I would think at .77 gain and 160" this would be pretty dim.

I have the same setup, 1000ES at minimum throw, calibrated, and it is acceptable to me, even with many hours on the bulb. Might not be bright enough to others. Definitely measures below acceptable on paper...
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Its also probably a case where 4k projector owners tend to be pushing it on larger screens, so this drastic reduction in output is magnified. I would estimate that 3d lumens are less than 10% of 2d lumens on the Sony 1000.

No way this is the case in my environment. Since my measured lumens in 2D was 12fL at least a couple hundred hours ago, no way 3D is one tenth of that--I would guess that would be unwatchable.

Watch Star Trek: ID recently in 3D and it was fine for me. Could be brighter, of course.

And I have good evidence that brightness is different between samples. My 2nd projector was brighter than this one (my 3rd). Lots of variables as to why, but it was significantly brighter.

Matt
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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