Sony VPL-VW500ES - 4k Projector - 2013 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Of course that's the nice thing about the huge 2020 gamut, it looks to be bigger than any current standard so there's room to grow into it as camera technology improves.

The Sony F65 should cover most of the 2020 range.
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post #722 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 10:38 AM
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To get back to the subject, I have three questions:

1) Does anyone know if xvycc is an option as a wide gamut for bluray 4K or if it should be ruled out for any kind of technical reason? Until now only rec2020 (the UHDTV standard) and DCI have ever been mentioned besides rec709 as a possible option for the upcoming standard.
2) Does the VW500ES support an xvycc gamut? If not to display Bluray 4K, at least to display "Mastered in 4K" blurays with the additional colour information? Or is the VW1000 the only native 4K projector with a gamut wide enough to display any gamut wider than rec-709? As the VW500ES doesn't support DCI or rec2020, I'm trying to keep a sliver of hope with xvycc.
3) Provided both source and display are HDMI 1.3 (or more recent) compliant (and it would obviously be the case if we are talking about a 2014 projector and a bluray 4K reader), would it be fair to assume that should xvycc be the wider gamut selected for 4K bluray, we would be able to take advantage of all the other improvements of bluray 4K (namely increased resolution, higher bit depth, better compression with less artifacts) with a rec709 gamut should our display not be xvycc compliant? This would make xvycc a very good option vs DCI and rec2020, which would limit 4K blurays only to a handful of displays.

Regarding "mastered in 4K", every time I read a review of a "Mastered in 4K" bluray, the reviewer doesn't mention xvycc, nor the specific calibration they would probably have to perform to be able to see the additional colours displayed properly. Supposing of course they were encoded in the first place by Sony. I'm not ruling out the pure marketing con, but I would like to give Sony the benefit of the doubt until they are proved wrong by someone who has all the equipment and the knowledge to do so. My X30 doesn't support xvycc, so unfortunately I can't test for now.

Can anyone link a review of a "mastered in 4K" bluray where the reviewer had an xvycc compatible source and display, had enabled the xvycc option on the display and had calibrated to the extended colourspace (which I assume is a necessary step)?

I'd like to know for sure if there is anything to gain from an xvycc compatible display at the moment, or not, as it might be a while before Bluray 4K makes it to our HTs.

Thanks!
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post #723 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 10:43 AM
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Your explanation above should be preserved somewhere as a sticky. It is a very lucid explanation of the concepts and terminology used and obviously reflects considerable thought and time in publishing it.
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Nice post Madshi!

Thanks! smile.gif

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How do you connect your xvycc device to a non xvycc device?

If it's through HDMI 1.3 (or more recent), the xvycc information WILL NOT BE SENT BY THE SOURCE. The source has to limit the content to rec 709, precisely to avoid the effects you mention, as it will not be allowed to if it doesn't detect (through HDMI handshaking) that the display can make use of the extended colour info.

What I care about is an xvycc device sending xvycc content to a non xvycc device, for those who would want to play bluray 4K (or a "mastered in 4K" bluray) on a non xvycc compatible display, which is the majority of consumer displays as of today.

This will be taken care of thanks to the HDMI limitations, therefore will provide backwards compatibility: a 4K bluray in a 4K bluray player using xvycc as a wide gamut would be displayed correctly on a display which doesn't handle xvycc, as the extended info will not be sent.

It seems to me that you think that any source device which has an HDMI 1.3 port is automatically xvYCC compatible and can automatically handle xvYCC to BT.709 conversion. I can't claim that I know this for a fact, but I'm at relatively certain that this is *not* the case. I very much doubt that the HDMI chip itself is able to do any gamut conversion. Maybe the HDMI spec requires source devices which have official xvYCC support to handle connections to non-xvYCC devices properly. But that is just a requirement written in the spec. How (and if at all) any given xvYCC source device implements that is another matter. And the implementation is not as simple as it might seem. Simple clipping won't do. Clipping to correct hue would be better, but still is probably not good enough. So this is a complicated problem, and not easy to solve.

To make this more practical: Just imagine you have a video of a nice red fruit (cherry, strawberry, whatever) and there are different shades of deep red saturations, all outside of BT.709. Obviously a BT.709 display can't display these colors properly. Now if you clip all those red shades to what BT.709 can do you will end up with just a flat red area without any gradations. That would look very unnatural. The proper solution for this would be to somehow stretch those extended red shades in such a way that they all end up within the BT.709 gamut, but still with slightly different red shades. But you can't just stretch all colors the same way, or else everything would look too pale. So again, this is not too easy to solve. I think there are formulas and specs how this can be solved, but it's far more complicated than simple clipping. So I have my doubts if all xvYCC source devices will do this properly, considering that some of them already have problems with rather simple things like color decoding etc...

Now consider this: The Blu-Ray spec does not support (or even mention) xvYCC. I think that most Blu-Ray players out there today have no clue what xvYCC is or what to do with it. Practically this means that if the "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays were really using xvYCC (which I doubt), most Blu-Ray players would still treat the content as any other Blu-Ray. They would treat/flag it as BT.709, and send it that way to the display. The HDMI 1.3 port wouldn't have a clue that it's really xvYCC content. As a result, the display would then simply clip all colors which are outside of the BT.709 range, resulting in shifted hues.
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post #724 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

To get back to the subject, I have three questions:

1) Does anyone know if xvycc is an option as a wide gamut for bluray 4K or if it should be ruled out for any kind of technical reason? Until now only rec2020 (the UHDTV standard) and DCI have ever been mentioned besides rec709 as a possible option for the upcoming standard.
2) Does the VW500ES support an xvycc gamut? If not to display Bluray 4K, at least to display "Mastered in 4K" blurays with the additional colour information? Or is the VW1000 the only native 4K projector with a gamut wide enough to display any gamut wider than rec-709? As the VW500ES doesn't support DCI or rec2020, I'm trying to keep a sliver of hope with xvycc.
3) Provided both source and display are HDMI 1.3 (or more recent) compliant (and it would obviously be the case if we are talking about a 2014 projector and a bluray 4K reader), would it be fair to assume that should xvycc be the wider gamut selected for 4K bluray, we would be able to take advantage of all the other improvements of bluray 4K (namely increased resolution, higher bit depth, better compression with less artifacts) with a rec709 gamut should our display not be xvycc compliant? This would make xvycc a very good option vs DCI and rec2020, which would limit 4K blurays only to a handful of displays.

Regarding "mastered in 4K", every time I read a review of a "Mastered in 4K" bluray, the reviewer doesn't mention xvycc, nor the specific calibration they would probably have to perform to be able to see the additional colours displayed properly. Supposing of course they were encoded in the first place by Sony. I'm not ruling out the pure marketing con, but I would like to give Sony the benefit of the doubt until they are proved wrong by someone who has all the equipment and the knowledge to do so. My X30 doesn't support xvycc, so unfortunately I can't test for now.

Can anyone link a review of a "mastered in 4K" bluray where the reviewer had an xvycc compatible source and display, had enabled the xvycc option on the display and had calibrated to the extended colourspace (which I assume is a necessary step)?

I'd like to know for sure if there is anything to gain from an xvycc compatible display at the moment, or not, as it might be a while before Bluray 4K makes it to our HTs.

Thanks!


We are talking x.v. color here. The Sony 1000ES has a toggle to set the projector to xv color but it disables black level and gamma adjusts I believe. Basically all the Sony Bluray players, including the dirt cheap S5100, and the PS3 can be set to x.v. color. Then you would need a mastered in 4K Bluray. I have the projector but not a Sony Bluray player or a mastered in 4K disc.

Assuming one has all this which I could hobble out today and buy (a Sony S5100 and a mastered in 4K disc), how would one test to see if the colorspace is expanded on the mastered in 4K disc?

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post #725 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post


Thanks! smile.gif
It seems to me that you think that any source device which has an HDMI 1.3 port is automatically xvYCC compatible and can automatically handle xvYCC to BT.709 conversion. I can't claim that I know this for a fact, but I'm at relatively certain that this is *not* the case. I very much doubt that the HDMI chip itself is able to do any gamut conversion. Maybe the HDMI spec requires source devices which have official xvYCC support to handle connections to non-xvYCC devices properly. But that is just a requirement written in the spec. How (and if at all) any given xvYCC source device implements that is another matter. And the implementation is not as simple as it might seem. Simple clipping won't do. Clipping to correct hue would be better, but still is probably not good enough. So this is a complicated problem, and not easy to solve.

To make this more practical: Just imagine you have a video of a nice red fruit (cherry, strawberry, whatever) and there are different shades of deep red saturations, all outside of BT.709. Obviously a BT.709 display can't display these colors properly. Now if you clip all those red shades to what BT.709 can do you will end up with just a flat red area without any gradations. That would look very unnatural. The proper solution for this would be to somehow stretch those extended red shades in such a way that they all end up within the BT.709 gamut, but still with slightly different red shades. But you can't just stretch all colors the same way, or else everything would look too pale. So again, this is not too easy to solve. I think there are formulas and specs how this can be solved, but it's far more complicated than simple clipping. So I have my doubts if all xvYCC source devices will do this properly, considering that some of them already have problems with rather simple things like color decoding etc...

Now consider this: The Blu-Ray spec does not support (or even mention) xvYCC. I think that most Blu-Ray players out there today have no clue what xvYCC is or what to do with it. Practically this means that if the "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays were really using xvYCC (which I doubt), most Blu-Ray players would still treat the content as any other Blu-Ray. They would treat/flag it as BT.709, and send it that way to the display. The HDMI 1.3 port wouldn't have a clue that it's really xvYCC content. As a result, the display would then simply clip all colors which are outside of the BT.709 range, resulting in shifted hues.

This is not what I'm saying. what I'm saying is that as I understand it, unless an xvycc enabled device signals to an xvycc enabled device that it is sending xvycc content, only rec709 information is sent. At least this is what can understand from the wiki:

"A mechanism for signaling xvYCC support and transmitting the gamut boundary definition for xvYCC has been defined in the HDMI 1.3 Specification. No new mechanism is required for transmitting the xvYCC data itself, as it is compatible with HDMI's existing YCbCr formats, but the display needs to signal its readiness to accept the extra-gamut xvYCC values, and the source needs to signal the actual gamut in use to help the display to intelligently adapt extreme colors to its own gamut limitations."

This is not saying that every HDMI 1.3 source3 will be able to process and scale down xvycc content to rec709 to a non xvycc enabled display. I honestly don't understand why you are overcomplicating this.

If you have an xvycc compatible device, you have to switch it on (enable) xvycc on both ends (source and display) for xvycc content to be sent and processed correctly. Obviously if the source isn't compatible, you can't process the content, and if the display isn't compatible, it can't receive it. However, and this is what I'm interested in, if the source is able to process the content (is xvycc compatible, like most recent bluray players including my 3 year old sony or even more obviously an upcoming 4k bluray player), then it should be able to either send the full signal to an xvycc display, or a downgraded rec709 signal if the display isn't xvycc compatible.

Again, I DON'T CARE IF A MORON WHO CANNOT READ THE PACKAGING (sorry for the uppercase, I'm not shouting, just trying to make sure you won't miss it) inserts a 4K bluray in a 5 year old bluray player, or a Mastered in 4K bluray in an incompatible reader.

I am interested in the ability for intelligent users like you or me or anyone reading this thread to use a 4K bluray with a display which would meet most of the requirement for 4K bluray (if we take the VW500ES, 10 bits at YCbCR422 in 4K at 24p) except the wider gamut.

The reason why I'm interested is because it would mean that potentially, the VW500ES could be compatible with bluray 4K if xvycc was the wider gamut selected, and two because if it isn't we could still buy a bluray 4K player and connect it to it to play the content as rec709 (you will agree that a bluray 4K player WILL be able to downgrade xvycc content to rec709 if it's designed that way) , and take advantage of all these improvements, even if we don't get the wider gamut.

Does it make more sense?

I have a feeling that you are speaking theoretically, for all users. I really don't care about all users. Only about users like us, interested in 4K and considering whether the displays available this year provide a reasonable future-proof option, or are complete dead ends.

I'm aware that xvycc has never been mentioned as an option, and I'd like to know why if there is a reason.

What I know, if that if rec709 is the gamut selected for bluray 4K, it's very disappointing, and if rec2020 or DCI is selected, the VW500/600ES is obsolete next year, as it won't be able to play a bluray 4K.

Hopefully this will clarify my point of view:).
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post #726 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Assuming one has all this whuch I could hobble out today and buy, how would one test to see if the colorspace is expanded on the mastered in 4K disc?
Good question!! Searched for IEC 61966-2-4 (xvYCC and Deep Color) on the Tektronic site and got no hits. Did a search for IEC 61966-2-4, xvYCC and Deep Color test and test equipment and got no hits. I’m not saying none exist but I failed to find any valid method to test the validity of IEC 61966-2-4 (test signals, test equipment, etc.).
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And if one wanted, god forbid, to calibrate the x.v. color space, where would the test signals needed come from?

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post #728 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 12:04 PM
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what I'm saying is that as I understand it, unless an xvycc enabled device signals to an xvycc enabled device that it is sending xvycc content, only rec709 information is sent.

This is technically not possible. You seem to lack the technical background knowledge, I'm sorry to say, and you're not listening to me, either. As I've told you before, xvYCC does not exist of a "core" and an "extension". It's not possible to only decode the BT.709 information and skip the xvYCC information. Any and every decoder out there will always output the full xvYCC information (or clip it, introducing hue shifts), and it will seem to be like any other BT.709 Blu-Ray video stream to the Blu-Ray player, although it isn't. Practically, if "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays are really using xvYCC, then every Blu-Ray player which doesn't know what xvYCC is will still send xvYCC information to the display. Only it will not be marked as such. And this will result in bad clipping and shifted hues. At least that is my understanding. I could be wrong, but I do understand these things better than the majority of AVSForum users.

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I honestly don't understand why you are overcomplicating this.

I'm not overcomplicating anything. I'm just giving you the facts straight.

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Obviously if the source isn't compatible, you can't process the content, and if the display isn't compatible, it can't receive it.

If the source isn't compatible, it will still send the data to the display. It will be the full xvYCC data, but it will be "disguised" as simple BT.709 data because the source will not know that it's xvYCC.

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I am interested in the ability for intelligent users like you or me or anyone reading this thread to use a 4K bluray with a display which would meet most of the requirement for 4K bluray (if we take the VW500ES, 10 bits at YCbCR422 in 4K at 24p) except the wider gamut.

The reason why I'm interested is because it would mean that potentially, the VW500ES could be compatible with bluray 4K if xvycc was the wider gamut selected, and two because if it isn't we could still buy a bluray 4K player and connect it to it to play the content as rec709 (you will agree that a bluray 4K player WILL be able to downgrade xvycc content to rec709 if it's designed that way) , and take advantage of all these improvements, even if we don't get the wider gamut.

if rec2020 or DCI is selected, the VW500/600ES is obsolete next year, as it won't be able to play a bluray 4K.

We don't know yet which gamut 4K Blu-Ray will use. It's not unlikely that it will be BT.2020. It could also be DCI. Or something completely different. I don't think it will be BT.709. It seems that the EBU is going to use BT.2020 for broadcasting, though. The end result might be that there might be different 4K sources using different gamuts. That will make things "interesting" because if the gamut for broadcasting differs from the gamut for 4K Blu-Ray then how will the display know which gamut the source device is sending? It is quite possible that xvYCC could be used as a general communication platform for 4K, and that both BT.2020 and DCI will be transported as xvYCC to the display. But these are questions I can't answer today.

BTW, AFAIK, unlike BT.709 and BT.2020, DCI does not have a color decoding matrix, because DCI is always RGB and never YCbCr, I think. But HDMI 2.0 doesn't have enough bandwidth to do 10bit RGB at 4Kp60. So if they use DCI, they will have to either invent a new color decoding matrix for YCbCr <-> RGB conversion, or they will have to encode as RGB and convert to another gamut in the source device before outputting the data via HDMI. That might be an argument for using xvYCC as the communication platform between 4K source devices and displays. We'll have to wait and see...
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

We are talking x.v. color here. The Sony 1000ES has a toggle to set the projector to xv color but it disables black level and gamma adjusts I believe. Basically all the Sony Bluray players, including the dirt cheap S5100, and the PS3 can be set to x.v. color. Then you would need a mastered in 4K Bluray. I have the projector but not a Sony Bluray player or a mastered in 4K disc.

Assuming one has all this whuch I could hobble out today and buy, how would one test to see if the colorspace is expanded on the mastered in 4K disc?

Thanks Mark for volunteering...

I guess you'd need to enable xvycc on both the source and the display, and I assume you'd have to calibrate the display to xvycc. This is where it's getting complicated, because I don't think Calman has an xvycc target (yet). I don't know about CP. I'm not sure if you'd have to take the Lumagen out, or if because the signal looks like it's rec-709 encoded it would go through with no issue. Also I'm not sure where you'd get the source patterns to calibrate. So quite a few technical questions to answer.

I watched Godzilla mastered in 4K a while ago on my HTPC (which is HDMI 1.4 and supports xvycc if I believe the specs of my Sapphire AMD 6870) and it didn't look like the colours were wrong on my non xvycc compatible JVC X30 (calibrated to rec709). I didn't see "more colurs" either, although that's probably not the best film to assess that. So either, as Mashi suspects, there was little or no xvycc data, or it was correctly downgraded to rec709 by my HTPC.
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post #730 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 12:15 PM
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I just volunteered to test to see if there is coded material on the disc outside the rec 709 space. I am not interested in buying or watching mastered in 4K discs. When I get the Sony server and 4K material down loaded to it, then we will have to figure what color space the content is in and what space it is sent to the display as. But I have no interest in mastered in 4K discs or trying to play them to get full benefit

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post #731 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 12:19 PM
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I just volunteered to test to see if there is coded material on the disc outside the rec 709 space. I am not interested in buying or watching mastered in 4K discs. When I get the Sony server and 4K material down loaded to it, then we will have to figure what color space the content is in and what space it is sent to the display as. But I have no interest in mastered in 4K discs or trying to play them to get full benefit

No worries, that was my understanding.

I continued a discussion here earlier today to ask questions about xvycc calibration as I didn't want to clutter this thread more than it already was, and I'm started to get some replies. No source of xvycc source patterns yet though.
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post #732 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 12:39 PM
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I read that thread before I posted.

Sony does not say much about the color space of the 500/600 other than it won't do DCI but it is Triluminous color and capable of wider (assumingly) than rec 709. So I think it reasonable to assume that it is x.v. color and perhaps that will be the new coming 4K Bluray standard. For marketing purposes, how wide is not important. We are a more society especially where there are no real specs that Joe 18 pack can relate to.

Sony rode the Trinitron name to great wealth. Everybody knew the Trinitron was the best and that's what one wanted. Triluminous and Trinitron both start with Tri. Coincidence?

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I wonder if the Adobe RGB colorspace is an option for UHD BD. It's narrower than 2020 but wider than 709 and somewhat similar to DCI but it has the same D65 White Point as BT.709 unlike DCI's white point which is slightly greener. The top JVC models do support an Adobe RGB Colorspace (albeit with a filter engaged thus lowering the lumen output).

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This is technically not possible. You seem to lack the technical background knowledge, I'm sorry to say, and you're not listening to me, either. As I've told you before, xvYCC does not exist of a "core" and an "extension". It's not possible to only decode the BT.709 information and skip the xvYCC information. Any and every decoder out there will always output the full xvYCC information (or clip it, introducing hue shifts), and it will seem to be like any other BT.709 Blu-Ray video stream to the Blu-Ray player, although it isn't. Practically, if "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays are really using xvYCC, then every Blu-Ray player which doesn't know what xvYCC is will still send xvYCC information to the display. Only it will not be marked as such. And this will result in bad clipping and shifted hues. At least that is my understanding. I could be wrong, but I do understand these things better than the majority of AVSForum users.
I'm not overcomplicating anything. I'm just giving you the facts straight.
If the source isn't compatible, it will still send the data to the display. It will be the full xvYCC data, but it will be "disguised" as simple BT.709 data because the source will not know that it's xvYCC.
We don't know yet which gamut 4K Blu-Ray will use. It's not unlikely that it will be BT.2020. It could also be DCI. Or something completely different. I don't think it will be BT.709. It seems that the EBU is going to use BT.2020 for broadcasting, though. The end result might be that there might be different 4K sources using different gamuts. That will make things "interesting" because if the gamut for broadcasting differs from the gamut for 4K Blu-Ray then how will the display know which gamut the source device is sending? It is quite possible that xvYCC could be used as a general communication platform for 4K, and that both BT.2020 and DCI will be transported as xvYCC to the display. But these are questions I can't answer today.

BTW, AFAIK, unlike BT.709 and BT.2020, DCI does not have a color decoding matrix, because DCI is always RGB and never YCbCr, I think. But HDMI 2.0 doesn't have enough bandwidth to do 10bit RGB at 4Kp60. So if they use DCI, they will have to either invent a new color decoding matrix for YCbCr <-> RGB conversion, or they will have to encode as RGB and convert to another gamut in the source device before outputting the data via HDMI. That might be an argument for using xvYCC as the communication platform between 4K source devices and displays. We'll have to wait and see...

First of all I know who you are and how knowledgeable you are. Like most here, I am very grateful for your contribution to this forum (and to the wider community through your work), and usally agree with most of what you are saying. While I don't post much most of the time, I do read these forums regularly.
There is absolutely no question that you are more knowledgeable in this subject in general than most AVS Forum users, including me:).

However, you started by saying that you weren't sure, and didn't know for sure. Hence why I'm not taking for granted your suppositions regarding xvycc, even if they are more likely to be true than mine:).

Second, I linked to quite a few precise quotes either from the wiki or from users you accepted seemed to know what they were talking about (KMO), and they ALL point to the fact that:

1) xvycc content cannot be sent to a display that doesn't explicitly support the extension

and

2) this is part of the HDMI 1.3 specs. The specs have been changed specifically for this.

I am listening, and I am absolutely ready to accept that I am wrong, and that I am totally misunderstanding, and that I've misread all these quotes, but could you please provide a link from a source that clearly explains why?

While I'm far from having your technical understanding of these issues, I'm not a complete beginner either. I do calibrate displays in an extensive and advanced way, I do master a variety of material using various compression codecs (I work in the film industry) so I'm not the entire noobie you seem to believe I am.

If we put this point aside, what you say in the second part of your last post is very interesting indeed. I had no idea that you could use xvycc as a transport mechanism for other gamuts. This would make it even more interesting, and potentially would make the absence of rec2020 support in the vw500es less of a sore point.

The UHDTV standard is already set to rec2020, so obviously it would make much more sense to chose the same gamut for bluray 4K and other sources. But just like you have to select the correct gamut (smpte-c for NTSC or bt.601 for PAL) when you insert a DVD, or even the correct gamut (smpte-c or rec-709 depending on how they were mastered) when you insert a bluray, it wouldn't be either unprecedented or the end of the world if we had to select the correct gamut depending on the UHD source we are playing.

What I find interesting, again, is not xvycc in itself, but the fact that provided the source is xvycc aware, it could offer a mechanism to provide backward compatibility with rec 709 displays.

If I read you last post correctly, you seem to not only agree with me on that point, but also suggest that we could have our cake and eat it, ie not only have the backward compatibility, but also the more interesting gamut (rec2020) instead of the xvycc gamut, for which I have no particular liking in itself (except if projectors like the vw500es or the new JVCs could miraculously support it).

Indeed, the main reason why this question is on topic in this thread is to assess whether 1) the vw500ES stands any chance to be compatible with the upcoming bluray 4K standard and 2) if it isn't fully compatible because it lacks support for the wider gamut, could we still take advantage of all the benefits from the new 4K bluray standard (color depth. better compression, increased pixel resolution, less chroma subsampling), bar the wider gamut. This would be not only good news for the VW500Es but also for all the other "stop gap" projectors that have arrived this year, although the lack of HDCP 2.2 might be fatal in their case.

Again, as I said earlier, I have no idea where xvycc falls between rec709 and rec2020. If it is smaller than rec2020, maybe it will make it easier for more displays to support it?

To clarify, I have no agenda here, except the pursuit of knowledge.

I started this day being a friend and a fan of yours, I'm hoping to end it the same way:).
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post #735 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I wonder if the Adobe RGB colorspace is an option for UHD BD. It's narrower than 2020 but wider than 709 and somewhat similar to DCI but it has the same D65 White Point as BT.709 unlike DCI's white point which is slightly greener. The top JVC models do support an Adobe RGB Colorspace (albeit with a filter engaged thus lowering the lumen output).

AFAIK Adobe RGB is traditionally for stills (say to display pictures from a DSLR), not for video. It is therefore unlikely to be the standard for UHD BD.
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post #736 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 01:21 PM
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Both you guys are clearly smarter than the average bear. In the calibration thread where x.v. color, Doug Blackburn explains the process as a core and an extension. If that were the case, would the extension data have to be remapped to the core by the player similar to how a colorists takes a color outside a color space and changes it to a color within for n non xv color display ?

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post #737 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

However, you started by saying that you weren't sure, and didn't know for sure. Hence why I'm not taking for granted your suppositions regarding xvycc, even if they are more likely to be true than mine:).

I've been wrong sometimes in the past, so when I'm not 100% sure I say so, just to be safe. But I'm still "relatively certain" that I'm right in what I wrote in this thread about xyYCC... smile.gif And about some parts I'm 100% sure.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Second, I linked to quite a few precise quotes either from the wiki or from users you accepted seemed to know what they were talking about (KMO), and they ALL point to the fact that:

1) xvycc content cannot be sent to a display that doesn't explicitly support the extension

If anybody said this, it is clearly wrong. I'm 100% sure about this part. Furthermore the word "extension" is already rather "dangerous" because it suggests that there is a core and an extension, which is totally not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

2) this is part of the HDMI 1.3 specs. The specs have been changed specifically for this.

xvYCC was added to HDMI 1.3 (?), but most probably as an *option*, not as a mandatory feature. That means not every device which has an HDMI 1.3 port automatically supports xvYCC.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I am listening, and I am absolutely ready to accept that I am wrong, and that I am totally misunderstanding, and that I've misread all these quotes, but could you please provide a link from a source that clearly explains why?

I don't have any links at hand. But I know how xvYCC is encoded and that knowledge alone means that I can draw some logical conclusions which are near to facts. Since you're willing, I'll give it another try, but this is my last try, after that I'll give up... wink.gif Some facts:

(1) Normally limited range video is encoded with Y 16-235 and CbCr 16-240. However, due to several reasons (downscaling from the studio master, chroma subsampling, etc etc) actual encoded content can sometimes contain data a bit outside of this range, without making the video stream invalid. Then there is also fullrange video, which can have Y 0-255 and I think (IIRC) CbCr also from 0-255.

(2) xvYCC is totally the same as normal limited range video, with the one and only difference that CbCr is allowed to have values in the range 1-254. You can probably use any mpeg2/VC-1/h264 encoder, feed it with xvYCC data and it will work just fine. In the same way you can probably use any mpeg2/VC-1/h264 decoder (hardware or software) and it will properly decode xvYCC content just fine, too, because xvYCC is really nothing special, it just extends the allowed range for CbCr values. As a result most encoders and decoders support xvYCC content just fine, without even knowing what xvYCC is. Maybe some encoders or decoders will clip CbCr to the 16-240 range, but I think most will not. If they do clip, that should introduce hue shifts.

(3) After understanding fact (2), logically it follows that any device which doesn't know what xvYCC is, will simply decode the video bitstream fine (without any trouble) and treat it as a normal video stream. There is zero reason why decoding would fail, or why sending the data to any display (xvYCC compatible or not) would fail. HDMI will not block a video stream simply because some CbCr values are outside of the 16-240 range. After all, fullrange YCbCr content can also have data in that range. As a result why should the HDMI connection fail for xvYCC content? There is no reason for that if the source device doesn't tell HDMI that the data is xvYCC. Which the source device won't if it doesn't even know what xvYCC is.

So knowing these facts, the simple logical conclusion is that a non-xvYCC-compatible source will decode xvYCC content just fine and send it via HDMI 1.3 to the display, without telling either HDMI or the display that the content is xvYCC. As a result the display will clip the gamut which I believe should result in hue changes. These are all logical conclusions based on facts. So I feel pretty sure that this is very likely to be true. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere. E.g. maybe xvYCC data has a watermark somewhere that will allow either HDMI or the display to detect it, or something funny like that, but it seriously doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

If I read you last post correctly, you seem to not only agree with me on that point, but also suggest that we could have our cake and eat it, ie not only have the backward compatibility, but also the more interesting gamut (rec2020) instead of the xvycc gamut, for which I have no particular liking in itself (except if projectors like the vw500es or the new JVCs could miraculously support it).

Indeed, the main reason why this question is on topic in this thread is to assess whether 1) the vw500ES stands any chance to be compatible with the upcoming bluray 4K standard and 2) if it isn't fully compatible because it lacks support for the wider gamut, could we still take advantage of all the benefits from the new 4K bluray standard (color depth. better compression, increased pixel resolution, less chroma subsampling), bar the wider gamut. This would be not only good news for the VW500Es but also for all the other "stop gap" projectors that have arrived this year, although the lack of HDCP 2.2 might be fatal in their case.

Again, as I said earlier, I have no idea where xvycc falls between rec709 and rec2020. If it is smaller than rec2020, maybe it will make it easier for more displays to support it?

IIRC xvYCC has a very different "form" than the other gamuts, but I think it's very large, so it could probably hold the other gamuts sufficiently. I don't know this for sure, though.

The VW500/600/1100 may be able to display 4K Blu-Rays (and/or broadcasts) just fine, or maybe not. I find that hard to say. There are many things that could go wrong. Maybe the xvYCC support in the VW*** is broken? Who has really tested that yet? Maybe 4K sources will not support xvYCC transport after all? Maybe [...]? It's simply hard to say at the moment. But yes, there is a chance it might play out fine. However, one thing we know for sure: Both the VW500/600 and the VW1100 have HDMI 2.0 chips limited to 10.2 GBit/s, so they are limited to 8bit 4:2:0 at 4Kp60, which I find disappointing. I'd have liked full 18 GBit/s support.

One more thing: Even if the Sonys will "understand" the 4K gamut correctly, that still doesn't mean that they will be able to display them perfectly. If the final 4K gamut will be bigger than what the Sonys can show, obviously some processing will be needed. Maybe only LED/laser light sources will be able to handle the full 4K gamut. But then, just because the 4K spec has a big gamut, that doesn't mean that all the content will make use of the full gamut. Maybe the film scanners and digital cameras have a smaller native gamut than what the 4K spec will offer. In that case it is possible that the Sonys will show all actual content colors perfectly, even if the Sonys might not be able to cover the full gamut spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

In the calibration thread where x.v. color, Doug Blackburn explains the process as a core and an extension. If that were the case [...]

It is totally not the case.
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post #738 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I read that thread before I posted.

Sony does not say much about the color space of the 500/600 other than it won't do DCI but it is Triluminous color and capable of wider (assumingly) than rec 709. So I think it reasonable to assume that it is x.v. color and perhaps that will be the new coming 4K Bluray standard. For marketing purposes, how wide is not important. We are a more society especially where there are no real specs that Joe 18 pack can relate to.

Sony rode the Trinitron name to great wealth. Everybody knew the Trinitron was the best and that's what one wanted. Triluminous and Trinitron both start with Tri. Coincidence?

I do know that the Sony engineers are smart and they look ahead. I doubt, this far into the game, that they would not have this figured out a working solution for 4K BD.

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OK smile.gif How would you rate them compared to the JVC engineers? And do you think the JVC engineers have their 4K input for their e-shift figured out for whatever the unfinalized 4K Bluray standard will be?

You shouldn't answer this question. smile.gif


The point of this discussion is we are trying to deduce what the 4K Bluray standard will be. Just like for the 1000ES, I suspect Sony will take care of its 500/600 customers if a fix is needed.

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post #740 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I do know that the Sony engineers are smart and they look ahead. I doubt, this far into the game, that they would not have this figured out a working solution for 4K BD.

http://www.digital-digest.com/news-63719-300GB-Blu-ray-Success-Being-Planned-Sony-and-Panasonic.html
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post #741 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 03:02 PM
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You are going to wear my finger out. That link has really nothing to do with the new 4K Bluray standard, if one actually comes. I guess I should ask Msike how the intelligence of the Panasonic engineers compare to the other two? But apparently Panasonic is not developing a new HT projector.

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post #742 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 03:28 PM
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Madshi, thanks for the long answer, I appreciate it. Let's drop the subject, because you seem to focus on the reasons why non xvycc aware sources might send the wrong information to non xvycc enabled displays, and I thought I had made it clear that I had little to no interest in this. Let's even say that I agree and that you are most probably right, based on your experience, credibility and knowledge:). I'll leave to someone more knowledgeable than myself the task to challenge your educated guesses, should they be challenged.

Hopefully we can agree that *should* a bluray 4K player use xvycc either as the wider gamut or as a transport mechanism for a rec2020 or a DCI gamut, it will, as per the HDMI specs, be able to either send the full xvycc data, or a subset/converted signal which will be correctly remapped to rec709. I don't care whether it's a core+extension, I'm only interested in the result: if the source is HDMI 1.3 or better compliant, and is xvycc aware, then it will be able to handle correctly the xvycc metadata whether the display is xvycc compatible or not (provided it isn't defective of course).

To me, this is potentially way more significant than the fact that the HDMI 2.0 interface of the VWxxx isn't up to 18GB/s but is limited to 10.2GB/s (I agree it's not ideal, but for the content we're likely to see in the next 2-3 years, it's most likely irrelevant).

Practically, the only likely sources of native 4K commercial content are either going to be:
- film sources at 24p (maybe 30p), and the limited HDMI 2.0 interface of the VW500/600/100 can handle up to 10bit @ YcBcr 422, so not likely to be a bottleneck. Whether from a server like the Sony media server or from a bluray 4K physical disc, we are very unlikely to be given better than this, I'm sure you'll agree with this.
- games at 60p, but in that case the GPU/CPU is the limitation and it's unlikely we'll see any games handling more than 4K@60p@8bits. You might have to set your ps4 or HTPC to ycbcr 422 and not 444, but is that really a problem? Not to me.
- UHDTV broadcasts, but outside of Japan and South Korea, when do you think we can expect rec2020 broadcasts at 60p in 10bits (as per the specs) when most broadcasters are struggling to deliver 1080i in 8 bits rec709 with horrible amounts of compression on their horribly crowded satellite channels? Apart from a few tests (like Sky UK with completely experimental UHD broadcast), there is no sign of UHDTV broadcast in 4K in a near future, and most analysts seem to think that most broadcasters, who have just moved to full HD, will simply skip 4K and will go for 8K UHDTV, when the pipes are wide enough to carry a better signal than full HD.

So the question of the wide gamut is the main sticking point to play 4K movies on the VWxxx.

We already know that the Sony server uses xvycc, like the Mastered in 4K blurays.
We also know that the VWxxx are able to accept a 10 bits YCbCr 422 signal at 24 or 30p in 4K, which is more than what we are likely to get for film content.
We also know that they are HDCP 2.2 compatible, which is likely to be a requirement for Bluray 4K.

So the main potential limitation is the wide gamut, whether it would be supported or not, and how the display would deal with the other improvements brought by 4K content if it doesn't support the wide gamut required by said content.

The VW500/600 are different from the VW1000/VW1100, which does support a DCI gamut, so the big boys have a bit more of a chance to make it.

My main question still remains: is the VW500/600ES able to DISPLAY an xvycc gamut, as we already know it can't display a rec2020 or DCI gamut.

If it does (which is unlikely given the size of the xvycc gamut), it might be its only chance to be fully compatible with the upcoming bluray 4K standard.

But if it doesn't support DISPLAYING an xvycc gamut, it might not be the end of the world as thanks to the xvycc compatibility with rec709 we would still be able to benefit from most of the other improvements.

I don't think that a bluray 4K with rec709 420 8bits makes sense as it doesn't provide enough of an improvement compared to bluray.

I don't believe that Sony would release two native 4K projectors like the VW500ES or the VW1100ES knowing that they won't be able to support bluray 4K at all in a few months.

At the moment, xvycc (as a wide gamut or as a transport mechanism for rec2020 as you suggested) seems to be the only option that reconciles these two statements without limiting bluray 4K to displays which haven't been produced yet, bar maybe the VW1000/1100ES should they go for the DCI option, which isn't the most likely.

At the end of the day, you are right, there is no way to know until the specs for bluray 4K are published and we can test the VW1000ES (and possibly the VW500/600ES) implementation.

But at least it leaves a bit of hope that all isn't lost:).
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post #743 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 04:24 PM
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Answer from Joel Barsotti, the lead developer of Calman in the Calman forum (I copy his answer instead of linking as you have to be registered there to display forum content): it looks like we don't need to calibrate specifically to xvycc, which is good news (kind of):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Barsotti 
The way xvYCC works is by using the extra range in YCC so when converted to RGB it creates negative values. It uses those negative values to increase saturation so 100%,0%,0% is rec.709 red, 100%, -10%, -10% is a value that could be encoded in xvYCC and therefore push the gamut out further.

So all you can do with xvYCC is turn it on and calibrate to rec.709. The extended gamut is based on having the primaries already in the standard location and then differencing off of them. The gamut xvYCC is capable of creating is an odd shape as you can't maintain the same chromaticity at all luminance levels.

EDIT: Joel has also kindly replied in this thread here
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post #744 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 08:27 PM
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Well, I had this projector preordered and deposit down on it, but I am reading an email from Art at projector reviews. I asked him how the vw600es that he has had for nearly a week compared to both the 1000 and 95es in terms of sharpness and black level. And it doesn't really sound like a huge improvement over what I have now. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but here is our exchange

"Hey Art!

Now that you've had some time with the VW600ES, what are your thoughts on performance compared to the VW1000ES? Specifically, what performance differences are there between the two besides the better black level? How does sharpness/brightness compare?

Is the black level similar to the VW95? that's what i have now and i'm pretty happy with it.

Thanks
Chris"


His response:

"Hi,

Yes, I would put the black levels about comparable to the VW95, with the caveat that it's been a while since a 95ES passed this way. It is at least as good, I'd say slightly better than the Epson 5020UB, which I aways felt had a slight edge over the HW50ES. I also felt that the 95ES was definitely a bit better than the Epson. Working on memory, I would be hard pressed to say if the 600ES is better than the 95ES. If I had to really guess, I'd say if anything it might be just a touch less than your 95ES.

I can certainly live with these black levels. I know the 1000ES was definitely better, though. And I did rave about the sense of clear optics on the 1000ES, while I never got that sense here, with the 600ES, I also see absolutely nothing to complain about optically. I would expect the optics to be similar to the 95ES or better, but again, that's working with a lot of "old data". -art

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post #745 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 08:42 PM
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I would assume it would be brighter than the 95 but upscaled 1080p to 4K will just be more resolution with not much difference in PQ. I would assume the big difference will be with actual 4K material, rather than 2K material
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post #746 of 1082 Old 10-11-2013, 08:57 PM
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Sorry to throw this question right in the middle of all the pricing talk,

  • But does this Sony have the built in lens shift from 16:9 to 2.35 like my JVC does.

When I bought my JVC, I was talked into going with a 135" 2.35 screen and man am I glad I did, I just love it..


Sooo.... Can someone answer my kind of simple question about the lens shift? I have been skimming through some of the 700+ posts this thread is up to and cant find the answer.

Thanks, Eric.
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post #747 of 1082 Old 10-12-2013, 12:35 AM
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You are not asking about lens shift. You are asking about motorized zoom functions and zoom memories. And your question is whether the 500/600 has them? And the answer is yes. smile.gif

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post #748 of 1082 Old 10-12-2013, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Well, I had this projector preordered and deposit down on it, but I am reading an email from Art at projector reviews. I asked him how the vw600es that he has had for nearly a week compared to both the 1000 and 95es in terms of sharpness and black level. And it doesn't really sound like a huge improvement over what I have now. Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but here is our exchange

"Hey Art!

Now that you've had some time with the VW600ES, what are your thoughts on performance compared to the VW1000ES? Specifically, what performance differences are there between the two besides the better black level? How does sharpness/brightness compare?

Is the black level similar to the VW95? that's what i have now and i'm pretty happy with it.

Thanks
Chris"


His response:

"Hi,

Yes, I would put the black levels about comparable to the VW95, with the caveat that it's been a while since a 95ES passed this way. It is at least as good, I'd say slightly better than the Epson 5020UB, which I aways felt had a slight edge over the HW50ES. I also felt that the 95ES was definitely a bit better than the Epson. Working on memory, I would be hard pressed to say if the 600ES is better than the 95ES. If I had to really guess, I'd say if anything it might be just a touch less than your 95ES.

I can certainly live with these black levels. I know the 1000ES was definitely better, though. And I did rave about the sense of clear optics on the 1000ES, while I never got that sense here, with the 600ES, I also see absolutely nothing to complain about optically. I would expect the optics to be similar to the 95ES or better, but again, that's working with a lot of "old data". -art

Art Feierman
Editor and President
Projector Reviews, Inc."

I think you can relax, the VW500 will be alot better than your VW95. The blacklevel might not be better (I guess about the same, long time since I saw the 95) but everything else will be better and the total picture will be quite a bit better. Brightness, sharpness, ansi contrast, 3D, motion ++ will be better on the VW500/600.smile.gif

And when Art is saying the Epson 5020 is better than the HW50 I am getting sceptical, I have side by side tested them and the Sony is a better machine than the Epson by some margin.

Regards
Andreas

My Homecinema

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post #749 of 1082 Old 10-12-2013, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Madshi, thanks for the long answer, I appreciate it. Let's drop the subject, because you seem to focus on the reasons why non xvycc aware sources might send the wrong information to non xvycc enabled displays, and I thought I had made it clear that I had little to no interest in this.

Yes, but the problem is that you underestimate how often this can happen. With "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Rays it will happen all the time, at least with older Blu-Ray players, *if* those discs are really using xvYCC (which I doubt). Anyway, I agree, let's drop this.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Hopefully we can agree that *should* a bluray 4K player use xvycc either as the wider gamut or as a transport mechanism for a rec2020 or a DCI gamut, it will, as per the HDMI specs, be able to either send the full xvycc data, or a subset/converted signal which will be correctly remapped to rec709. I don't care whether it's a core+extension, I'm only interested in the result: if the source is HDMI 1.3 or better compliant, and is xvycc aware, then it will be able to handle correctly the xvycc metadata whether the display is xvycc compatible or not (provided it isn't defective of course).

I do hope that a fully xvYCC compatible source is going to be able to convert the xvYCC data in such a way that it looks alright on a simple BT.709 display, too. But I fear that some source devices might screw this up some way or another...

(the word "metadata" does not fit in this context)

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

film sources at 24p (maybe 30p), and the limited HDMI 2.0 interface of the VW500/600/100 can handle up to 10bit @ YcBcr 422, so not likely to be a bottleneck. Whether from a server like the Sony media server or from a bluray 4K physical disc, we are very unlikely to be given better than this, I'm sure you'll agree with this.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. RedRay already supports up to 60fps, IIRC. 4K Blu-Ray might support that, too. EBU even plans to support up to 120fps in 2017/2018 for sports etc! Well, maybe 4K Blu-Ray will stick to max 24p after all, or maybe not. It's too early to tell. Nobody is using 30p, AFAIK. 24p, 48p (Peter Jackson) or 60p (James Cameron) is what is interesting for movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

UHDTV broadcasts, but outside of Japan and South Korea, when do you think we can expect rec2020 broadcasts at 60p in 10bits (as per the specs) when most broadcasters are struggling to deliver 1080i in 8 bits rec709 with horrible amounts of compression on their horribly crowded satellite channels? Apart from a few tests (like Sky UK with completely experimental UHD broadcast), there is no sign of UHDTV broadcast in 4K in a near future, and most analysts seem to think that most broadcasters, who have just moved to full HD, will simply skip 4K and will go for 8K UHDTV, when the pipes are wide enough to carry a better signal than full HD.

EBU plans to start broadcasting 4K in 10bit 50p or 60p in 2014/2015, IIRC. The VW*** won't be able to accept this video format in its full quality. See here:

http://recombu.com/digital/news/4k-technicolor-set-top-box-sky-ultra-hd-satellite-feed_M12160.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_definition_television

> David Wood, Deputy Director of the EBU Technology and Development Department (who
> chairs the ITU working group that created Rec. 2020), told The Hollywood Reporter that
> Korea plans to begin test broadcasts of 4K UHDTV next year.[50][51][52] Wood also said
> that many broadcasters have the opinion that going from HDTV to 8K UHDTV is too much
> of a leap and that it would be better to start with 4K UHDTV.[50] In the same article
> Masakazu Iwaki, NHK Research senior manager, said that the NHK plan to go with 8K
> UHDTV is for economic reasons since directly going to 8K UHDTV would avoid an
> additional transition from 4K UHDTV to 8K UHDTV.

So, it seems Japan is going straight to 8K, but most of the other countries seem to prefer 4K for now.
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post #750 of 1082 Old 10-12-2013, 03:39 AM
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^ I vote direct to 8K... with all the bells and whistles, like ability to play 120fps (which they say will then turn stereoscopic, whatever that means).. maybe even 24 bit color, etc.. just create a format that is more of less future proof and let the competition come up with displays, etc, to get to it..

With displays getting bigger and bigger, like wall sizes.. maybe OLED would cover your entire wall,... 4K will quickly look grainy.
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