Sony VPL-VW500ES - 4k Projector - 2013 - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Sony VPL-VW500ES - 4k Projector - 2013
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 09:13 AM 11-05-2013
We'll be looking at this closely, we should have the 600/1000 together soon.

Manni01's Avatar Manni01 09:13 AM 11-05-2013
For the few people interested in the discussion about x.v.color we had a few pages ago, I have found this excellent thread.

It looks like with the right hardware and the correct settings, there are some clear differences for some movies between the standard edition and the Mastered in 4K blurays. Now how much of this is due to the extended gamut gamut, and how much to the better bitrate and processing, it's difficult to know as the colour differences seem subtle, but I read the entire thread and they went through the trouble of detailing which titles were most different and in which aspect (Ghostbusters, Spider-Man and Men In Black are amongst the favourites).

Apparently the main reviewer can see a clear difference when x.v.color is enabled or not, but only with recent Sony 4K displays with Triluminos. Older Sony displays with only x.v.color compatibility or the old triluminos feature didn't seem to display any of the extended colors.

In any case, it looks like your best bet to display the extended gamut info is a recent Sony player and a recent Sony 4K display, both with the "Triluminos" feature.

A member even did some tests showing that the max values for YUV shot above 235 with the Mastered in 4K blurays. Now whether this shows actual x.v.color information or wtw info, I'm not sure we can say, but the thread is very informative for those interested in the subject.

I suggest we comment in that thread rather than re-opening an O.T. discussion here smile.gif .
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:20 AM 11-05-2013
So one might actually need the upgrade to get x.v. color off the Mastered in 4K discs.Jjust wanted to post that here in light of my earlier posts.
Manni01's Avatar Manni01 09:30 AM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So one might sactually need the upgrade to get x.v. color off the Mastered in 4K discs. just wanted to post that here in light of my earlier posts.

Just to clarify, do you mean the VW1000 upgrade Mark?

Re our Bluray 4K bet, I just found out a piece of information that might seriously tip the scale even further in your favour.

I thought that the specs for HEVC/x265 (which is likely to replace x264 compression for Bluray 4K, at least that's everyone's expectation) had been finalized last January - and that is correct - but what I didn't know is that while the technical document is approved and the standard is set, there is a big uncertainty due to the rights issue as some of the IP rights holders refuse to join the same group because they got shafted with x264 and are arguing about royalties.

This means that manufacturers might be reluctant to implement the new compression as there is uncertainty about the cost which isn't fixed at the moment.

Here is a good article on the subject, and another one here.

I still hope I'll be able to tell Mark "close, but no cigar" by the 1st of January 2015, but he's clearly in the lead...
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:44 AM 11-05-2013
Yes. The upgrade of the 1000ES to the 1100ES.

As to our bet, I have a vast network of touts who urged me to book it. I can close my eyes and visualize smoking a Cubano instead of the cheap cigar I am smoking now. I am not convinced that we will ever get a UHD Bluray There are lots of obstacles in the way and the younger generation does not favor quality hard media.
madshi's Avatar madshi 11:14 AM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

It looks like with the right hardware and the correct settings, there are some clear differences for some movies between the standard edition and the Mastered in 4K blurays. Now how much of this is due to the extended gamut gamut, and how much to the better bitrate and processing, it's difficult to know as the colour differences seem subtle, but I read the entire thread and they went through the trouble of detailing which titles were most different and in which aspect (Ghostbusters, Spider-Man and Men In Black are amongst the favourites).

The difference is visible with any decent hardware, old or new. By far most of the advantages of those "Mastered in 4K" discs (I mean those discs where the new release is clearly better than the old) come from a new scan. Distant 2nd place goes to higher bitrate. Extended gamut and "better processing" got nothing to do with anything. I've compared some of these (old vs. new releases) myself, and those where a new scan was made are a big step ahead of the old releases, in detail and resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

A member even did some tests showing that the max values for YUV shot above 235 with the Mastered in 4K blurays. Now whether this shows actual x.v.color information or wtw info, I'm not sure we can say, but the thread is very informative for those interested in the subject.

Yes, it is. But if you read the thread carefully, you'll see that e.g. the old (non-"Mastered in 4K") Blu-Ray actually has more YUV values above 235 than the actual "Mastered in 4K" Blu-Ray has (!!!). I think that pretty much shows that extended gamut in those Blu-Rays is mostly a marketing gag. At least that's my opinion.

Over and out... biggrin.gif
Manni01's Avatar Manni01 12:39 PM 11-05-2013
Yes, I meant the differences in colour due to the extended colour info obviously, no doubt that the differences due to the scan and bitrate should be visible on any hardware smile.gif

Regarding the non mastered in 4K bluray having more YUV values above 235 than the Mi4K ones, that's precisely why I said that I was wondering which of these values were x.v.color ones and which ones were standard superwhite (wtw ie whiter than white) values.

Look like we agree, so I'm out too wink.gif.
madshi's Avatar madshi 01:40 PM 11-05-2013
I think superwhite would have Y higher than 235, not CbCr. I think those CbCr values higher than 240 are probably not intentional. These things can be caused by scaling artifacts (halos) or chroma down/upsampling etc...
Manni01's Avatar Manni01 01:59 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I think superwhite would have Y higher than 235, not CbCr. I think those CbCr values higher than 240 are probably not intentional. These things can be caused by scaling artifacts (halos) or chroma down/upsampling etc...

Thanks. I guess I would need to understand better how the x.v.color information is encoded. My - limited - understanding was that it was encoded using btb (under 16) and wtw (above 235) values to represent the triplets outside of rec-709. If that's the case, how can we make the difference between standard wtw values, x.v.color encoded values and errors as you suggest simply looking at the values? They would all look the same, but the x.v.color source and display would "agree" at the beginning of the process, when the gamut metadata is detected to signal x.v.color encoded information, that data below 16 and above 235 should be interpreted as x.v.color information.

I might have that entirely wrong and if anyone is interested in discussing this further to try to get to the bottom of this extended gamut thingy from a technical point of view, we should create a new thread and provide a link here or ask questions in the one I already linked, otherwise we'll face complaints from people who are - legitimately as it's only borderline on topic here - bored by this discussion, especially if we're not arguing smile.gif .

I only linked to that thread as I thought it might be interesting to some future VW500ES owners, as Mastered in 4K blurays seem to be an interesting source of content for 4K displays until we get proper Bluray 4K, but definitely not to restart a discussion on the subject here biggrin.gif .
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 04:11 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

On its own, the picture the VW600 threw was fantastic. Unless you were to see them side by side, you won't be giving up anything, subtle or otherwise. Enjoy your new projector when you get it - it's a great machine!!

Agreed...I went through the demo 4 times looking for different things.

Slacker is right. Didn't we demo the VW 600 five times Mike?? smile.gif
Quote:
So my friend, you are saying that if you don't know there is better, than you won't know you are giving up anything. If I were choosing between the machines, I would want an A/B from reviewers that have seen the A/B and not a statement from I saw the 600ES and it looked fantastic, buy it.

I imagine if someone can afford a VW1100 ( since the VW1000 B stocks are more or less gone ), they would want to know how much they are giving up. But, since a VW1100 is nearly the same price as two VW600's, it should be better. I guess my point was more that there is always some better audio / video gear ( or sports car etc. ) wise, that is " better ", and just out of your financial reach. Buy the best you can afford / feel comfortable spending, and quite 2nd guessing yourself.
7channelfreak's Avatar 7channelfreak 04:41 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Buy the best you can afford / feel comfortable spending, and quite 2nd guessing yourself.


But how do I get rid of that feeling of wondering what I'm missing???
jlanzy's Avatar jlanzy 06:45 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post


But how do I get rid of that feeling of wondering what I'm missing???

If you spend the most you can afford, your wondering will wither away since reality will slap you upside the head to tell you it doesn't matter because you got no mo' do'.


AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 08:16 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Slacker is right. Didn't we demo the VW 600 five times Mike?? smile.gif
I imagine if someone can afford a VW1100 ( since the VW1000 B stocks are more or less gone ), they would want to know how much they are giving up. But, since a VW1100 is nearly the same price as two VW600's, it should be better. I guess my point was more that there is always some better audio / video gear ( or sports car etc. ) wise, that is " better ", and just out of your financial reach. Buy the best you can afford / feel comfortable spending, and quite 2nd guessing yourself.

Worse than that. I went one time after you caught your flight. smile.gif
Chris Dallas's Avatar Chris Dallas 08:17 PM 11-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

and quite 2nd guessing yourself.

I'm not quite sure I understand this but when I do I will quit as well. biggrin.gif
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:44 PM 11-05-2013
Chris. Just stop when yor vision starts to get blurry. You don't want to go blind. Hope this helps an old friend.
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 04:13 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Chris. Just stop when yor vision starts to get blurry. You don't want to go blind. Hope this helps an old friend.

If you drink 2 good bottles of wine with every movie, you won't be able to tell that the VW1000 is slightly sharper than the VW600 - even if they are side by side....... wink.gif

And the difference in price will buy 400 bottles of $ 35.00 wine. After the first 50 bottles, you won't care which one is sharper !biggrin.gif
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 05:40 PM 11-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

If you drink 2 good bottles of wine with every movie, you won't be able to tell that the VW1000 is slightly sharper than the VW600 - even if they are side by side....... wink.gif

And the difference in price will buy 400 bottles of $ 35.00 wine. After the first 50 bottles, you won't care which one is sharper !biggrin.gif
This will help determine whether you need to shop for a 4k, HD, or SD projector:
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/222/art%253A10.3758%252FBF03204118.pdf?auth66=1383957670_6fca38289f5ea4d27aa13e5ae7481541&ext=.pdf
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 06:42 PM 11-06-2013

Since we will probably watch a movie this Sat night after a 6 course 5 hour wine pairing dinner with 12 different wines, it will be a good opportunity to watch my SD dvd copy of The Party with Peter Sellers, since nobody will be able to tell it's not a Blu Ray at that point. eek.gifcool.gif
whitetrash66's Avatar whitetrash66 01:43 PM 11-07-2013
First review is up:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/vpl-vw500es-201311073419.htm

Black level is VERY similar to vw1000 and sharpness is :

"All in all, the Sony VPLVW500ES produces a 4K image that will be more than a match for the double-priced VW1000 under normal viewing. Only upon close scrutiny – or on truly gigantic cinema-sized screens – would the £19,000 step-up model’s superior optical performance be readily apparent."


And in the summary

"On the whole, we’re very satisfied with the VPLVW500ES. It might cost around half the price of Sony’s earlier VPLVW1000ES, but it’s very nearly as good, and in some ways, better than its predecessor."

AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 02:26 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

First review is up:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/vpl-vw500es-201311073419.htm

Black level is VERY similar to vw1000 and sharpness is :

"All in all, the Sony VPLVW500ES produces a 4K image that will be more than a match for the double-priced VW1000 under normal viewing. Only upon close scrutiny – or on truly gigantic cinema-sized screens – would the £19,000 step-up model’s superior optical performance be readily apparent."


And in the summary

"On the whole, we’re very satisfied with the VPLVW500ES. It might cost around half the price of Sony’s earlier VPLVW1000ES, but it’s very nearly as good, and in some ways, better than its predecessor."

If I was Sony, I would shoot this reviewer, for his second paragraph:

"How is a price reduction of nearly half achieved? According to Sony’s chief engineer Yukio Ohmura, the key in bringing the VW500 to market for under £10,000 was replacing the majority of the glass lenses in the optical path with plastic ones of suitably high quality. As well as bringing costs down, this move also reduced the weight of the unit, which – together with a cleverly bent optical path – allows for a smaller chassis."

The guy is reporting that the majority of the lens uses plastic and that is not what Sony's presentation shows. Look at the 2:26 mark of this video: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438597/sony-vpl-vw500es-sxrd-4k-projector-ifa-berlin-2013/270#post_23728409 The video clearly shows a comparison between the VW1000ES lens and the VW600ES lens. Lists the VW600ES lens as having 1 plastic lens and 13 glass lens.
R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 03:59 PM 11-07-2013
That's a bit of a weird review to me. It's good at getting at much of the technical bits (lens misinformation excepted), but I was waiting for more enthusiasm in terms of visual impressions. "The projected image is very pleasing," - type remarks doesn't really give me any idea of where this projector sits in terms of image performance. And yet by the end they are concluding it gives up little to the much more expensive VW1000, so I'd expect a little more enthusiasm or description to seep through the review.

Ah well, I guess that's what forums like these can help. As end users of these products, we can give each other the kind of detailed descriptions and comparisons we are looking for.
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 04:47 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
That's a bit of a weird review to me. It's good at getting at much of the technical bits (lens misinformation excepted), but I was waiting for more enthusiasm in terms of visual impressions. "The projected image is very pleasing," - type remarks doesn't really give me any idea of where this projector sits in terms of image performance. And yet by the end they are concluding it gives up little to the much more expensive VW1000, so I'd expect a little more enthusiasm or description to seep through the review.

That review was from the UK. They are very reserved there. If it had been a reviewer in Texas, he would have said " hot damn that's a mighty fine picture " !!biggrin.gif
roxiedog13's Avatar roxiedog13 05:06 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

That's a bit of a weird review to me. It's good at getting at much of the technical bits (lens misinformation excepted), but I was waiting for more enthusiasm in terms of visual impressions. "The projected image is very pleasing," - type remarks doesn't really give me any idea of where this projector sits in terms of image performance. And yet by the end they are concluding it gives up little to the much more expensive VW1000, so I'd expect a little more enthusiasm or description to seep through the review.

Ah well, I guess that's what forums like these can help. As end users of these products, we can give each other the kind of detailed descriptions and comparisons we are looking for.

If it proceeded the 1000ES I'm sure there would have been more enthusiastic accolades. The very fact that it is put in the same league as the 1000ES albeit with only a minor optical difference is indeed something to be excited about. At the price point it is selling for compared to its "BIGGER" 4K brother
I believe we should all be quite pleased. tongue.gif

Cup of tea anyone confused.gif
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar Gary Lightfoot 05:19 PM 11-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post


Cup of tea anyone confused.gif

Spiffing good idea old chap smile.gif
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 05:28 PM 11-07-2013
David has great coverage in his reviews, focusing on technical details that are often overlooked by some other reviewers. (he covers 3D color calibration which hardly anyone else discusses)

having said that, the only real way to quantify the difference in the lens is a direct A/B stack with a split source. (coming soon, stay tuned)

his comment about the HW50 not providing full vertical resolution in 3D went completely unnoticed last year. He is claiming the same for the VW500/600, but stated it was fine on the VW1000. This will be curious to see if it's actually noticeable in a direct comparison.

overall this sounds like an excellent projector, can't wait to see it.
Canary_Jules's Avatar Canary_Jules 12:24 AM 11-08-2013
I spoke with David yesterday about the VW500ES just before the review went live and I can assure you chaps that he really is impressed with the projector. smile.gif He was particularly pleased that Sony has listened to some of the feedback that they had given them from the VW1000 and HW50 - in particular, the adjustments that can now be made with the Reality Creation engine. Black levels, he said, are "excellent." It's a shame that the detailed gamma adjustments still have to be made using an external PC but at least we now don't need to use a serial cable. It's all there in the review. It's nice to have something new to read and ponder while we tick off the final days to delivery! smile.gif
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:18 AM 11-08-2013
David has revised his reviewing to reflect that only the exit glass element of the exit group is plastic. The exit glass is what you can tap on with your test hammer on the front of the lens.smile.gif He also corrected a misstatement about the lens protective cover.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 09:34 AM 11-08-2013
I posted a comment, letting him know the lens information was wrong and provided him with a link to show that it was wrong. Nice to see that he corrected the review quickly. smile.gif
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:45 AM 11-08-2013
I was going to post that the I Like Mike guy was probably responsible for the correction but since I was only 99.999% sure it was you since I didn't do it, I decided to remain silent and let you take and bask in the glory. After all it was an election year. Way to go Tea Party. I thing they should be replaced with a cigar and bourbon party.
MaDBeN's Avatar MaDBeN 09:49 AM 11-08-2013
Is the review posted correct in saying there is a lens cap as opposed to a motorized lens cover? Seems like a step backward if that is the case.
Tags: Sony Vpl Vw500es
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