Sony VPL-VW500ES - 4k Projector - 2013 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 01:56 AM
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Ran:

If the VW500 will look anything like the VW1000 it will blow your VW95 away in every way also with only a small blu ray logo, I have tested the VW95 and VW1000 side by side and it is really a no contest as the VW95 is not even close. I also was at IFA and saw the VW500, but I did not get the chanse to see it in detail and only saw the 3 clips from the back row. And these contrast numbers from Cine4home is based on a preprodutionmodel as the one we saw at IFA, and if the production model will have the same native contrast number as the VW1000 (as it is based in the same panels and tec) it will be the same as the VW95, but with much higher ANSI contrast. So the picture is much more dynamic, and black will look alot blacker.

And I wonder how you can say that your VW95 looks better with only a blu ray logo in the picture, do you have the exact same screen and exact same sixe and same room and logo?? The only way to see these things is to test the projectors in the same room on the same screen at the same time. If the VW500 will have about the same ANSI contrast as the VW1000 it will be a big difference to the VW95. Don´t get me wrong, the 95 is a good machine, but it will be not even close to the VW500 when it gets out on the market.

Regards
Andreas


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post #182 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:02 AM
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תודה רבה רן

Thanks for your views Ran. From the sound of those settings it looks like they went for brightness at all costs. Whites would no doubt have been badly clipped. The black floor would definitely have suffered too. Funny, I've just spoken to a colleague who also saw the demo and who has said that the blacks looked fantastic - with the caveat that he knows more about TVs than projectors. So we should take his impressions with a pinch of salt too. Nevertheless, he was generally bowled over by the demo.

שנה טובה
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post #183 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I think typically about 15-20 k native ( see : http://cine4home.de/ ):

"3.2 Schwarzwert, Kontrast, Helligkeit (Know How Link hier)

In den Katalogen bewirbt Sony vollmundig ein Kontrastverhältnis von 150,000:1 und eine Lichtleistung von 1000 Lumen, beide Werte „selbstverständlich“ wieder höher, als in der Vorgängergeneration. Wer ein bisschen Erfahrung mit Herstellerangaben hat, weiß, dass diese stets sehr optimistisch ausgelegt sind und nicht unbedingt unter praxisnahen Bedingungen ermittelt werden. Außerdem wird nicht angegeben, wie hoch der native Kontrastanteil an diesen Werten ausfällt, denn der VW95 verfügt über eine dynamische Blende zur Kontrastunterstützung.

Um realistische Ergebnisse zu erhalten, haben wir zunächst die adaptive Blende deaktiviert bzw. geöffnet, selbstverständlich bei kalibrierter Farbgebung: Mit einer Lichtleistung von 850 Lumen (hoher Lampenmodus) kommt das Gerät angemessen nahe an die Herstellerangaben und bietet damit auch genügend Lichtreserven für Bildbreiten bis 3m, ohne dass es zu sehr an Leuchtkraft verliert. Im Eco-Modus verringert sich diese Helligkeit um rund 30% auf immer noch akzeptable 520 Lumen, was aber nicht mehr als Lichtkanone bezeichnet werden kann.

Der native Kontrast beläuft sich kalibriert auf durchschnittlich 15,000:1, was einen hervorragenden Wert darstellt und derzeit nur von den D-ILA Modellen von JVC geschlagen wird. Dieser native Kontrast steigert sich bei geschlossener Iris sogar auf bis zu über 20,000:1, allerdings bei einer limitierten Helligkeit von maximal 400 Lumen.

Das Beste aus beiden Welten erhält man, wenn man die Iris in den Automatik-Modus versetzt: Dann passt sie sich automatisch dem Bildinhalt an. Bei dunklen Filmszenen schließt sie sich und erhöht so den Schwarzwert und Kontrast, bei hellen Szenen öffnet sie sich und gibt so den maximalen Lichtstrom frei. Auf diese Weise erreicht der VPL-VW95 einen Dynamikumfang von bis zu 80,000 bei richtigen Farben.
"



Even if the native looks like a step Down from the 95ES, you will in real live see it as a step up, because it has so much more light, so the Picture will look a lot more dynamic
( have to say , Im NOT one of those WHO thinks, going from a native 25k to say 30K makes a big difference ( sorry JVC guy´s biggrin.gif ) if even visible at all wink.gif

If we go by the numbers from cine4home ( 95ES = 15-20 K native , the 1000ES 7-18 K native ) it should appear that the 1000ES should be a step Down - ITS NOT, it looks more dynamic,the black level is a lot lower on completly Black ( the iris close a lot more ), and before some say´s it ( tongue.gif ) yes, it still looks better on very dark scenes too.

BTW. I have owned a 95ES and did love it ( but as Mark H. will say smile.gif, the 500ES will beat the crap out off it - Of course, under the condition that it keeps the level that Cine4home have seen with their prototype )

If you ask, if the 500ES will be a upgrade from the 95ES, its going to be a big YES ( IMO )

dj

Darker scenes on the VW1000 and the VW95 as all other scenes the VW1000 and VW95 is not even on the same planet!biggrin.gif

Regards
Andreas


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post #184 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canary_Jules View Post

תודה רבה רן

Thanks for your views Ran. From the sound of those settings it looks like they went for brightness at all costs. Whites would no doubt have been badly clipped. The black floor would definitely have suffered too. Funny, I've just spoken to a colleague who also saw the demo and who has said that the blacks looked fantastic - with the caveat that he knows more about TVs than projectors. So we should take his impressions with a pinch of salt too. Nevertheless, he was generally bowled over by the demo.

שנה טובה

The VW1000 does not clip white with contrast at max so if the VW500 is the same your statement is wrong, and I did not see white clipping in the demo. And I also think the blacklevel looked good on the VW500.

Regards
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post #185 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Ran:

If the VW500 will look anything like the VW1000 it will blow your VW95 away in every way also with only a small blu ray logo, I have tested the VW95 and VW1000 side by side and it is really a no contest as the VW95 is not even close. I also was at IFA and saw the VW500, but I did not get the chanse to see it in detail and only saw the 3 clips from the back row. And these contrast numbers from Cine4home is based on a preprodutionmodel as the one we saw at IFA, and if the production model will have the same native contrast number as the VW1000 (as it is based in the same panels and tec) it will be the same as the VW95, but with much higher ANSI contrast. So the picture is much more dynamic, and black will look alot blacker.

And I wonder how you can say that your VW95 looks better with only a blu ray logo in the picture, do you have the exact same screen and exact same sixe and same room and logo?? The only way to see these things is to test the projectors in the same room on the same screen at the same time. If the VW500 will have about the same ANSI contrast as the VW1000 it will be a big difference to the VW95. Don´t get me wrong, the 95 is a good machine, but it will be not even close to the VW500 when it gets out on the market.



+1

Agree....Again smile.gif

dj
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post #186 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The VW1000 does not clip white with contrast at max so if the VW500 is the same your statement is wrong, and I did not see white clipping in the demo. And I also think the blacklevel looked good on the VW500.

"If the VW500 is the same." I hope that it is.
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post #187 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The VW1000 does not clip white with contrast at max so if the VW500 is the same your statement is wrong, and I did not see white clipping in the demo. And I also think the blacklevel looked good on the VW500.



Andreas21

There, I dont agree . smile.gif

If HDMI setting is correct on video level ( auto ), the iris is off ( and offcause gain /bias RGB not adjusted - fresch from fabric ) , it typical will clip at about 251 with contrast about 88 - 91 ( brightness / Black level 50 -53 ).

I have testet about 5 ! all five behaved alike. ( if you put on auto iris, it will change up to about 98 - max. before it clips and some dont, even at max. - like yours, apparently )


dj
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post #188 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Andreas21

There, I dont agree . smile.gif

If HDMI setting is correct on video level ( auto ), the iris is off ( and offcause gain /bias RGB not adjusted - fresch from fabric ) , it typical will clip at about 251 with contrast about 88 - 91 ( brightness / Black level 50 -53 ).

I have testet about 5 ! all five behaved alike. ( if you put on auto iris, it will change up to about 98 - max. before it clips and some dont, even at max. - like yours, apparently )


dj

Yes, this is of corse with the iris on, and we don´t use this machine with this fantastic iris off do we? I normally have the contrast at around 90 myself, but I can set it at max if I want some more light.

Regards
Andreas


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post #189 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 03:30 AM
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I watched two NFL football games last night on my 1000ES and I saw clipping once. Luckily the referee saw it too and threw a penalty flag and assessed a 15 yard penalty. But it was a black that did the clipping not a white.

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post #190 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Andreas21

There, I dont agree . smile.gif

If HDMI setting is correct on video level ( auto ), the iris is off ( and offcause gain /bias RGB not adjusted - fresch from fabric ) , it typical will clip at about 251 with contrast about 88 - 91 ( brightness / Black level 50 -53 ).

I have testet about 5 ! all five behaved alike. ( if you put on auto iris, it will change up to about 98 - max. before it clips and some dont, even at max. - like yours, apparently )


dj

I didn't read the whole thread, so excuse me for butting in, but did you try a different player / source or are you using a hardware pattern generator?

There are bluray players that clip with certain projectors regardless of what you do, though I'm assuming most of you have the Oppo which doesn't do that AFIK. Still, I've had some Samsung bluray players that clip at 250 regardless of YCbCr / HDMI settings, I tried every conceivable setting that could affect it until I was blue in the face once and just switched Bluray players and like magic it was fine.

If we are just talking about white clipping only, and above 250 it is almost impossible to see by eye anyways, maybe a couple pixels missing out of a stray cloud. If you are talking about other colors, I'm not sure exactly how much effect it has, but not very much even then. Clipping a tiny bit really is kind of over-exaggerated as to the effects of the image.



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post #191 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 05:02 AM
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Why are we talking about possible problems with the 1000ES in the 500 thread?

Talking about problems. how can you guys sleep with the minor white banding below horizontal screen center caused by the bulb power supply arc flash protection circuitry in the 1000ES. Remember this was identified long ago and is visable by any competent and critical viewer. And YOUR set has it, yes it does. Normally it is unobtrusive but it is there. I completely forgot about it, its so minor. But no more, I will obsess and make all you guys crazy about it because its there Put up a 30% IRE window, see it. Watch green golf course, see it as a lighter band of green coloration just below horizontal center. It should drive you freaking crazy and spoil any enjoyment of the set you might otherwise get. Far worse than the Stanford band incident. Far far worse.

Coderguy. Long long ago you got a life time its OK to butt in pass from AV Science Forum. Please don't waste valuable bandwidth seeking forgiveness for butting in. smile.gif

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post #192 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran View Post

This will be a short impression of the 500 after attending two showings at IFA.

For reference I own the Sony 95 (which is my 14th projector) and I’m projecting on a 2.35:1 HP 133” screen.

In terms of looks, the 500 does look like the 1000 smaller brother. They have the same design, same height and width but the 500 is a lot shorter, nevertheless the 95 has a more sleek look to it, though it’s a matter of taste obviously.
Sony was showing 2 clips in native 4K and a short clip from the latest Spiderman, the part where Peter is having fun with this guy in the basketball court.

Positive:

They where projecting on a 16:9 140” with a 1.0 Gain and the picture was bright,vibrant, colors looked quite good, but not 100% accurate, sharpness was good and I found the dynamic range to be very good. The Iris as usual could not be spotted. In fact I found the Spiderman clip to be more engaging and impressive than the 4K clips.

Negative:

I saw some problems with fast movement, panning from left to right, which surprised me after owning the 95 and experiencing its terrific motion. Sharpness could have been a tad better, but what troubled me the most was the projector’s native contrast, u know that parts where JVC loves to show off, where the Iris is having trouble.
I saw this very clearly when the screen was Black and there was just a small Blu Ray logo in the middle, u could see that the screen can be much darker, in fact those kind of examples look better on my 95.

I cant say I was overwhelmed after this presentation, but of course u should take this was a grain of salt as I had no control over settings and the stuff they showed was something I was not familiar with so I cant be absolutely sure how it looks on the 95.
More over the Japanese guy that stood quietly in the corner mentioned that this was a pre production unit and they are still calibrating the machine. I asked him if I can pick up the remote and have a look at the settings and he agreed just not to change anything, so here is what I found:

1. Lamp was on High
2. Brightness and color were on 50
3. Contrast was on 100 (Max)
4. Gamma was on number 8, though one can choose now from 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 etc.
5. Col tem was on D65
6. Iris was on Auto but there is a new sub menu which I’m not familiar with that enables the user to control the limitations of the iris and its brightness. It read: Full and Brightness : Maximum.
7. Sharpness was on 10.

That’s it more or less. I cant really say I was floored or was in awe as looking at the new 110” 4K Samsung TV which was breathtaking,but it’s really too soon to tell.

Ran


I also have a VW95, and have been looking at the 1000 for a long time. Haven't gotten it yet due to HDMI 2.0 and not working with new copy protection. Regarding the black level, 2 things come to mind for me.

1) the prototype VW1000 tested by hometheater mag only had around a 2372:1 contrast ratio native. A quote:
"With the Advanced Iris set to off (wide open with no dynamic action) and the gamma correction on 2.2, the full-on/full-off contrast ratio dropped to 2,372:1 (21.35 ft-L full white, 0.009 ft-L full black). " Link: http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-vpl-vw1000es-4k-sxrd-projector-ht-labs-measures

2) Maybe they (Sony) had the brightness cranked as high as possible to show off the sharpness of the 4K panel, which sacrificed black level. On my 133" HP screen, I almost prefer the iris on min setting and lamp on max (no auto iris) as the black levels improve dramatically. I think my screen is too bright and kind of kills my blacks, but with the iris set to min, it looks very bright still, but blacks are much improved.

3) I am STILL tempted by the VW1000 for it's raved about amazing image. I could always upgrade it to HDMI 2.0 later, but that chunk of change on top of the projector cost isn't cheap. Also, if the VW500 has an ADJUSTABLE auto iris, that would be perfect for my too bright screen. I could have the iris on FULL DYNAMIC and turn the brightness down to compensate.
But I'm still tempted by the 1000, especially if the 500ES is $14,999.
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post #193 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Why are we talking about possible problems with the 1000ES in the 500 thread?

Talking about problems. how can you guys sleep with the minor white banding below horizontal screen center caused by the bulb power supply arc flash protection circuitry in the 1000ES. Remember this was identified long ago and is visable by any competent and critical viewer. And YOUR set has it, yes it does. Normally it is unobtrusive but it is there. I completely forgot about it, its so minor. But no more, I will obsess and make all you guys crazy about it because its there Put up a 30% IRE window, see it. Watch green golf course, see it as a lighter band of green coloration just below horizontal center. It should drive you freaking crazy and spoil any enjoyment of the set you might otherwise get. Far worse than the Stanford band incident. Far far worse.

Coderguy. Long long ago you got a life time its OK to butt in pass from AV Science Forum. Please don't waste valuable bandwidth seeking forgiveness for butting in. smile.gif

Sorry for the OT.

This problem was almost gone when I changed the original lamp with a new Sony lamp a while ago, the problem is still there but it is almost completly gone. With the old lamp with 500 hours on it it is very visible, and i changed lamp just to see if it would do anything and with mine and a friend of mines and the problem is now not visible in anything but 30 and 40 IRE patterns and barely in these patterns also.

Regards
Andreas


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post #194 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

I also have a VW95, and have been looking at the 1000 for a long time. Haven't gotten it yet due to HDMI 2.0 and not working with new copy protection. Regarding the black level, 2 things come to mind for me.

1) the prototype VW1000 tested by hometheater mag only had around a 2372:1 contrast ratio native. A quote:
"With the Advanced Iris set to off (wide open with no dynamic action) and the gamma correction on 2.2, the full-on/full-off contrast ratio dropped to 2,372:1 (21.35 ft-L full white, 0.009 ft-L full black). " Link: http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-vpl-vw1000es-4k-sxrd-projector-ht-labs-measures

2) Maybe they (Sony) had the brightness cranked as high as possible to show off the sharpness of the 4K panel, which sacrificed black level. On my 133" HP screen, I almost prefer the iris on min setting and lamp on max (no auto iris) as the black levels improve dramatically. I think my screen is too bright and kind of kills my blacks, but with the iris set to min, it looks very bright still, but blacks are much improved.

3) I am STILL tempted by the VW1000 for it's raved about amazing image. I could always upgrade it to HDMI 2.0 later, but that chunk of change on top of the projector cost isn't cheap. Also, if the VW500 has an ADJUSTABLE auto iris, that would be perfect for my too bright screen. I could have the iris on FULL DYNAMIC and turn the brightness down to compensate.
But I'm still tempted by the 1000, especially if the 500ES is $14,999.

These measurments is not what the production model has it is about 20000:1 at best, and I guess the VW500 will be about the same.

Regards
Andreas


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post #195 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 08:17 AM
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10K MSRP is the only way for me to even think about getting this unit... frown.gif

I'm jelly of those who can buy one without thinking about it... lol.


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post #196 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 10:08 AM
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post #197 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

I'm going to guess $_ _ , 999.99. Since your VW1000es retails for $24,999.99. That .99 cents makes all the difference. wink.gif Seriously though it has to be retail of $14,999.99 doesn't it since street price has been told to some of over $10k cause if it was $12,999.99 retail the street would be below $10k.

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post #198 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 12:01 PM
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according to the UK forums, AVFORUMS:
official pricing is confimed at

£8799 inc vat

source:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/projectors/1766845-sony-vpl-vw500es-new-mid-level-4k-projector-3.html

If that includes VAT, what does this mean for US pricing? aren't we getting flogged?

8799 - vat (20% I believe) is 7039.2. Converted to USD is $11043.80 according to current exchange rates. Really, 15k? Or is my math or VAT # off?
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post #199 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

according to the UK forums, AVFORUMS:
official pricing is confimed at

£8799 inc vat

source:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/projectors/1766845-sony-vpl-vw500es-new-mid-level-4k-projector-3.html

If that includes VAT, what does this mean for US pricing? aren't we getting flogged?

8799 - vat (20% I believe) is 7039.2. Converted to USD is $11043.80 according to current exchange rates. Really, 15k? Or is my math or VAT # off?

It looks to be that way. I've been told by two sources that, unless Sony decides to reduce the cost in the US, the street price will definitely not be under $10000, which points to a $14999 MSRP. I've also heard that Sony is strictly managing how low it's dealers sell projectors this year so that adds to the $10000+ street price rumor.

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post #200 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 12:32 PM
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Pricing info is really a bummer. I would have shrunken my screen size a bit and gone with the 500 for 4k and image quality if it could be had for $10k or just under....at $15k and a predicted street of only a couple grand less, I'd opt for something else.


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post #201 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Pricing info is really a bummer. I would have shrunken my screen size a bit and gone with the 500 for 4k and image quality if it could be had for $10k or just under....at $15k and a predicted street of only a couple grand less, I'd opt for something else.

Yep, I'm in the same boat as I am ready for a new projector this year and was hoping the VW500es would street a little under $10k. Looks like if it is well over $10k I may be getting another JVC with eshift this year instead.

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #202 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:43 PM
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I will post this here...

The new 4K blu-ray will be 100GB using triple layer (33GB per layer).

Yes, the information is confirmed.

[]s,
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post #203 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Gradius2 View Post

I will post this here...

The new 4K blu-ray will be 100GB using triple layer (33GB per layer).

Yes, the information is confirmed.

Sweet! Now the big question...
Will it work with hdmi 2.0???
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post #204 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Sweet! Now the big question...
Will it work with hdmi 2.0???

Pretty sure it will be HDMI 2.0 (they always wants to sell new toys after all).

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post #205 of 1083 Old 09-10-2013, 07:57 PM
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This pricing doesn't make sense. Why would Europe get such a good deal and north America gets screwed over? Guess I gotta go back to Avforums and make some friends so someone can send me a 500es for under 10 000 biggrin.gif Hopefully Canada gets the European treatment and gets a nice price. Is this Sonys revenge for WW2 eek.gif
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post #206 of 1083 Old 09-11-2013, 01:04 AM
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Normally is is the other way around and you Americans get much better prices than Europe even if we extract the VAT. So I find this strange, but it seems to be the case this time.

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post #207 of 1083 Old 09-11-2013, 04:06 AM
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Still holding out hope this is $10k in the U.S. just as the Ruby followed the Qualia. $15k just doesn't make sense given the pricing we are hearing from Europe; current pricing of the 1000es and the fact that Sony (and others) have dropped their 4K flat panels significantly (3499 for the 55inch XBR with hdmi 2.0). $15k just wouldn't make any splash in this market and that's what Sony alluded to doing when they introduced this model
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post #208 of 1083 Old 09-11-2013, 06:34 AM
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I have to agree with what everyone else has said here, it makes no sense to price this at $14999.99 it just won't sell very well. I mean what's the point when you can buy the vw1000 for a little over $18000. I guess we will find out in 2 weeks what the real price will be.
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post #209 of 1083 Old 09-11-2013, 06:52 AM
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If they really wanted to make a splash, they should MSRP it $4999 and not make it subject to sure pricing. Even you would buy one except you would have to hide it from your wife because you are spending our money and nothing is wrong with your projector. But they probably wouldn't make money on it. The pricing in Europe won't be announced by Sony until Tuesday and anything on the overseas forum means nothing before that. I suspect US pricing will then follow certainly no later than a week later and probably at the same time. I am repeating, Sony is cracking down big time on its sure pricing partly because of its own stores and their ability to compete with discounting Sony dealers. So discounts off of MSRP will be small in comparison to what widely went on last year. I expect Sony to coordinate pricing between Europe and North America with European pricing being about 18% to 19% higher because it must include VAT. But we shall see soon and then the dreams of I'll get one from my buddy dealer for $8K, which I can swing if I sell my old projector, sell my racing bike which I don't use any more, and max out my credit card will be vaporized.. My guess is that Sony will come into the US with a MSRP of $12 to $13K which would result in a street of over $10K


On an interesting note, The Sony stores say out of stock for the VPL-vw1000ES. This is a further indicia that the 1000ES will be discontinued to be replaced with a similar but new model that includes all the stuff in the upgrade for the 1000ES and perhaps a little more. The rumored price for the new model is $28K which is about the price of a 1000ES with the upgrade kit.. If the top of the line Sony consumer 4K projector is $28K, the drop down 500/600 should come in at a little under half that. They still want to sell the new top of the line model and if the pricing delta is too much, sales will shift to the lower model based on price performance rather the customers financial ability to buy at a price point.

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post #210 of 1083 Old 09-11-2013, 07:09 AM
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Sony VW500 MSRP for Canada : 13,599$ CAD
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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