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post #91 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 11:42 AM
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Harkness. Is that a real question? Of course he is going to look at the JVCs on display. That's almost like asking him if he goes to his favorite steak house, whether he is going to order his favorite dessert there. smile.gif Though I suppose he might not if he were on a diet. I nominate this as one of the ten worst questions of the day. smile.gif

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post #92 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 11:54 AM
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I seem to be on a roll.
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post #93 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Are you asking how sharply a projector can be focused?

Take a look at this:
http://www.videovantage.com/?p=819

 

*dazed and confused*  Those curves remind me of what a color/vision scientist of mine shows me from time to time.  Aye yi yi.

 

Nyquist?

 

Meanwhile, back on earth, judging by this bad-boy:

 

If they're talking about a 1080p projector (are they?) then there's plenty of "room" for that to become 4K.  What I was asking was if 4K exceeded the ability of a home-user projector to focus, and to what extent.


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post #94 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

*dazed and confused*  Those curves remind me of what a color/vision scientist of mine shows me from time to time.  Aye yi yi.

Nyquist?

Meanwhile, back on earth, judging by this bad-boy:



If they're talking about a 1080p projector (are they?) then there's plenty of "room" for that to become 4K.  What I was asking was if 4K exceeded the ability of a home-user projector to focus, and to what extent.

Probably with a terrible lens, but none of the current 4K projectors out there should have any issue.

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post #95 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

So...darinp2,

JVC finally did it; announced a new line up that employ a Dynamic Iris.

Unless my memory is going, you've written many times that JVC should move beyond their native-only stance and try employing a DI, since it had the promise to yield true contrast benefits.

Are you going to take a look at these new models?
I'm going to buy one, then I'll really get to look at it. smile.gif

I didn't spend much time looking at it. It was hooked up to a server and it sounds like the DI algorithms may not be final anyway. Didn't really seem like we could change anything and I didn't look for DI issues with the content they had.

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post #96 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post




If they're talking about a 1080p projector (are they?) then there's plenty of "room" for that to become 4K. 

I agree, especially the Samsung, you could cut those pixels in 4 and still have very well resolved squares.
Quote:
What I was asking was if 4K exceeded the ability of a home-user projector to focus, and to what extent.

To agree with Seegs in some different wording, there's no reason to say you can't build a lens package for a 4k/2160p projector and have it focus well. It will have the same issues as 1080p projectors with cheap lens packages either not resolving sharply, or not having even focus, but even something as inexpensive as my BenQ W5000 or even the $1k Optoma projectors can focus well.

To an extent I think the whole "you need a spectacular lens for 4K" stance is a bit overblown. Looking at how well 1080p projectors resolve 1080p pixel grids, meaning with most of them if you get close enough the square shape of each pixel is obvious, says to me that that lens is "sufficient" for resolving 4k pixels.

Or lets look at it another way. If you take the above picture as an example, the lenses on those machines are good enough that they can resolve the gap between the pixels. The dimension of that gap is roughly an order of magnitude smaller than a 4k pixel, meaning that lens already resolves out to a far smaller resolution that 4k requires. Now it's likely that this class of lens may not be able to resolve the gap between 4k pixels, it certainly won't resolve it as well.

But let me throw out a bit more heresy. I'd say that with 4k, it's less important to render pixels as clearly. You see with projectors up to 1080p, at the seating distances folks around here use, one can see a good deal more resolution than 1080p. So this means that poorly resolved pixel edges will appear less sharp at the viewing distance if they are resolved poorly. Now contrast this to a 4k machine at the same distance. In this case the panel resolution is pretty close to the limit of the resolution the human eye can see. One way to look at that is to say that the user won't be able to tell if a pixel has a hard boundary or a soft one, if it's a neat square or rounded off.

Now, lets back up, this isn't to say a good lens won't be important, good lenses are important for lots of reasons beyond just resolving fine detail. And most likely a better lens will result in a better picture at 4k resolutions, but I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure I buy the argument that you need a better lens for 4k than you do for 1080p.

Does the VW1000 have a better lens than the Sim2 Lumis? Does it need one? Both projectors are exceptional and both are in a similar price class.

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post #97 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I'm going to buy one, then I'll really get to look at it. smile.gif

I didn't spend much time looking at it. It was hooked up to a server and it sounds like the DI algorithms may not be final anyway. Didn't really seem like we could change anything and I didn't look for DI issues with the content they had.

--Darin

Awesome.

I hope we get some reports, even from CEDIA, of the new projectors in action..as in...with the DI is there an obvious improvement in black level performance?
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post #98 of 151 Old 09-26-2013, 02:49 PM
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QUESTION ABOUT NATIVE 4K VS JVC's E-SHIFT:




Now, if reports are good on the new JVC's and a visible contrast enhancement, I'm contemplating grabbing one this year. 4K per se isn't that compelling to me yet due to lack of content, so for the foreseeable future my concern is how well a projector displays existing Blu-Ray 1080p content.

So a question on my mind is: Next year JVC will likely bring out native 4K projectors. Are there good reasons to think that native 4K will bring anything significant to the table in terms of image quality/upscaling or whatever, for 1080p sources, vs JVC's current E-shift?

In trying to answer what Native 4K itself brings to the table for 10800, comparisons between the JVC and the Sony 4K projectors introduce all sorts of other variables in picture quality (Sony's own technology, optical engine, different scaling, higher quality lens, etc). So I suppose we are sort of stuck in theoretical mode in answering my question (?).
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post #99 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post


QUESTION ABOUT NATIVE 4K VS JVC's E-SHIFT:




Now, if reports are good on the new JVC's and a visible contrast enhancement, I'm contemplating grabbing one this year. 4K per se isn't that compelling to me yet due to lack of content, so for the foreseeable future my concern is how well a projector displays existing Blu-Ray 1080p content.

So a question on my mind is: Next year JVC will likely bring out native 4K projectors. Are there good reasons to think that native 4K will bring anything significant to the table in terms of image quality/upscaling or whatever, for 1080p sources, vs JVC's current E-shift?

In trying to answer what Native 4K itself brings to the table for 10800, comparisons between the JVC and the Sony 4K projectors introduce all sorts of other variables in picture quality (Sony's own technology, optical engine, different scaling, higher quality lens, etc). So I suppose we are sort of stuck in theoretical mode in answering my question (?).

i'm definitely wondering the same thing, and best i can figure is no. unless jvc's upscaling is terrible, or the new displays upscaling is phenomenal, i doubt very much will SEE a benefit to sending 1080p to a 'real' UHD display vs what jvc is doing now. so until UHD content is available to you, i think the smart bet is to go with the jvc and wait for real UHD to become both available and affordable.

history is full of examples where having a higher resolution display did not improve(sometimes even got worse) the quality of a lower resolution source. usually the less scaling the better
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post #100 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:15 AM
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Dang, a question like mine woulda been answered (or attempted) long ago, in the AVSforum of old...
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post #101 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:19 AM
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The level of sophistication of your questions has increased to where few people could answer them. And some of those folks are on the show floor now and not glued to their computer or internet machine by a broken leg for example.

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post #102 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:31 AM
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Fair enough.

How about this one:

Am I likely right in presuming the following:

4K is still clearly an expensive proposition for projectors - Sony being an example that one pays quite a premium for a 4K model, even their "cheapest" model this year.
As much as many have been clamoring for JVC to come out with native 4Kmodels, most of us figured that JVC would most likely have introduced a top-tier flagship 4K projector, with E-shift models filling out below. In other words, any rational person would have expected a native 4K projector from JVC this year to be quite expensive. (Which is one reason why it seems a certain amount of disappointment may be displaced that JVC didn't introduce such a model - I bet few would have spent that much money on it anyway).

It seems to me this scenario will still carry over to next year somewhat. If JVC introduces 4K models next year, How do you think it will work? A single 4K flagship? Maybe including a model below as well?

I'd presume that, just like Sony's 4K models, they are going to be significantly more expensive than the model-pricing we've grown used to.
It's still going to be a premium price to join the 4K club.

(And if that presumption is reasonable, it can make sense to buy this year's model and wait until the 4K models become more affordable maybe in two years or so).
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post #103 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:38 AM
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I concur, that is why I am most likely getting a RS57 and will hold onto it for 2-3 years until the 4k projectors are around MSRP of $8000 or below.

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post #104 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
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I concur, that is why I am most likely getting a RS57 and will hold onto it for 2-3 years until the 4k projectors are around MSRP of $8000 or below.

Mike

I say 55% chance it is native 4k/hdmi 2.0 for the RS67 and RS57 replacements next year. 45% it is just the rs67 replacement. The year after it will be all three e-shift models.

But when will the extended color space make it's way to these panels?

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post #105 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

I say 55% chance it is native 4k/hdmi 2.0 for the RS67 and RS57 replacements next year. 45% it is just the rs67 replacement. The year after it will be all three e-shift models.

That is about the right odds I would put on that but how much of a price increase would you expect or do you think they will stay their respective $12k and $8k MSRP prices?

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post #106 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 11:55 AM
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I say 55% chance. 45%

Have you checked the shape of your ears lately?

I say 52.7%.

I agree that 4k will probably take quite a bit longer to get cheap, give it 3-5 years, maybe 2 if we are really lucky.


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post #107 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 12:03 PM
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Man, do we need some people at Cedia to report what they are seeing.......that way we can dissect that into percentages. biggrin.gif

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post #108 of 151 Old 09-27-2013, 01:03 PM
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If you have a telescope that can reach 800 miles and account for the curvature of the earth (oh yah and the buildings), then I can give it a shot :)_
Or if someone wants to pay my ticket and motel and rental car, I'll leave now. Or a better deal, I'll use my own vehicle and even take gas money without charging you wear and tear...


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post #109 of 151 Old 10-24-2013, 07:29 AM
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What i particularly like about this thread is that it's sbout whether or not to buy a 4K device now, not the broken logic of somehow never seeing the difference from 2K.

Well Vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before I get such a message...
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post #110 of 151 Old 11-05-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post


The distance depends on the size of the screen. What I've seen is that human vision is good to about 100 pixels per degree, if you sit at SMTPE reference seating distance that's 43.4 degrees, so 4,340 pixels horizontally, that's for 3 picture heights from a 2.39:1 image.

If you go 2 picture heights (SMPTE closest) that's 61.8 degrees or about 6180 pixels.

So 4K is probably good to about 3 picture heights seating distance, closer than that and there's benefit to higher resolutions, like 8k.


Actually the human eye at 20/20 vision can resolve about 1.75 mm at 20 feet away (~ 1 arcsec). A 60" 1080 screen has a pixel size of 0.693 mm. Working out the math this means for a 60" screen you can 'see' a pixel at about 8', this also means a 4K TV you would need to be 4' to start to resolve a pixel. So unless you are sitting much closer then 8' from a 60" screen 4K will not get you anything extra in terms of resolution.
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post #111 of 151 Old 11-05-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post


The distance depends on the size of the screen. What I've seen is that human vision is good to about 100 pixels per degree, if you sit at SMTPE reference seating distance that's 43.4 degrees, so 4,340 pixels horizontally, that's for 3 picture heights from a 2.39:1 image.

If you go 2 picture heights (SMPTE closest) that's 61.8 degrees or about 6180 pixels.

So 4K is probably good to about 3 picture heights seating distance, closer than that and there's benefit to higher resolutions, like 8k.

Actually the human eye at 20/20 vision can resolve about 1.75 mm at 20 feet away (~ 1 arcsec).

Actually, 1.75mm across at 6096mm (20 feet) yields just over 59 arcseconds actually (an arcminute).

 

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A 60" 1080 screen has a pixel size of 0.693 mm. Working out the math this means for a 60" screen you can 'see' a pixel at about 8',

Which cannot be true, because I had a dead pixel on a 60" TV that I could see at 12' away (I have 20/20 tested vision in one eye, 20/25 in the other).


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post #112 of 151 Old 11-05-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
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Actually the human eye at 20/20 vision can resolve about 1.75 mm at 20 feet away (~ 1 arcsec).

I think you mean arc minute

1 pixel / arc second * 60 arc seconds / 1 arc minute * 60 arc minutes / 1 degree = 3600 pixels per degree, which is way too high.

1.75mm @ 20 ft is ~0.98 arc minutes or about 61 pixels per degree
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A 60" 1080 screen has a pixel size of 0.693 mm. Working out the math this means for a 60" screen you can 'see' a pixel at about 8', this also means a 4K TV you would need to be 4' to start to resolve a pixel. So unless you are sitting much closer then 8' from a 60" screen 4K will not get you anything extra in terms of resolution.

Acuity of 1 arc-minute is actually the acuity for 20/20 vision, which at the low end of what's "normal", lots of people have better than 20/20 vision, see here:
http://www.displaymate.com/iPhone_4_ShootOut.htm#Retina
I know personally my uncorrected vision is "20/20" (might even be a tad better than that) but I can tell you it's not perfect and my small (power) prescription makes a significant difference.

And of course you have to remember the goal is to not be able to make out the pixels.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #113 of 151 Old 11-05-2013, 11:54 AM
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It's a little bit more confusing than that as well.

 

An eye chart has to do with being able to identify a particular shape.  Not to see if the shape exists.  And not to see if there's a difference between shapes.

 

It's a completely different criteria, and starts us off entirely on the wrong page.

 

Further, the ability to see something depends entirely on the color & surroundings as well.  It's absolutely not a simple conversion from "20/20" to pixel dimensions.

 

For instance, this particular image (done as a .png) is a single black pixel near the middle of a 500x500 white square.  Walking backwards from my laptop, this sucker fades away at around 3ish to 4 feet.

 

Where as I can see this white pixel at close to 11' (from my laptop).


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post #114 of 151 Old 11-05-2013, 02:57 PM
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4K OR NOT 4K.

Not! Not yet, that is. Thinking back to the early days of HD it took years for broadcasters to get on board. Satellite providers went from mpeg2 to mp4. Then there was component RGB connectors; then DVi, then several versions of HDMI. My point is many, including myself, made investments that were quickly obsoleted. I must confess I haven't taken much interest in UHD because of, I sure, more equipment changes to come. So, Not! Not yet, that is.
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post #115 of 151 Old 11-09-2013, 10:12 PM
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I'm not in a big hurry to buy a 4k TV because it seems like owner will be at a big disadvantage for picture quality unless watching 4k. And most material will not be 4k. Most material is not even 1080p today.

 

I mean even if you are watcing 1080p the TV has to upscale all the way to 4k. How can that look good? Seems like an awful lot of material that has to be "made up." Im a little leery of the whole idea because it seems like so much processing will have to be involved. Personally, I think it will be a better move to just buy a 1080p TV. Then even if you watch 4k material, your TV only has to downscale which is better than having to upscale.

 

I hope they don't stop making 1080p TVs.

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post #116 of 151 Old 11-10-2013, 05:36 AM
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I'm not in a big hurry to buy a 4k TV because it seems like owner will be at a big disadvantage for picture quality unless watching 4k. And most material will not be 4k. Most material is not even 1080p today.

I mean even if you are watcing 1080p the TV has to upscale all the way to 4k. How can that look good? Seems like an awful lot of material that has to be "made up." Im a little leery of the whole idea because it seems like so much processing will have to be involved. Personally, I think it will be a better move to just buy a 1080p TV. Then even if you watch 4k material, your TV only has to downscale which is better than having to upscale.

I hope they don't stop making 1080p TVs.

It can and will look better than it does on a 1080P TV or projector. Since you are in the projector threads, ask one of the guys that has a Sony VW1000ES.

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post #117 of 151 Old 11-10-2013, 07:24 AM
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For me sitting at 11 feet away from a 118" screen, I stand to benefit from a 4k projector. But I will wait to see how 4k blu-ray takes off. I'm hoping it does, but will see what happens.
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post #118 of 151 Old 11-10-2013, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by willkm79 View Post

I'm not in a big hurry to buy a 4k TV because it seems like owner will be at a big disadvantage for picture quality unless watching 4k. And most material will not be 4k. Most material is not even 1080p today.

I mean even if you are watcing 1080p the TV has to upscale all the way to 4k. How can that look good? Seems like an awful lot of material that has to be "made up." Im a little leery of the whole idea because it seems like so much processing will have to be involved. Personally, I think it will be a better move to just buy a 1080p TV. Then even if you watch 4k material, your TV only has to downscale which is better than having to upscale.

I hope they don't stop making 1080p TVs.

For a tv, e.g., of 65" or less say, I think you are quite right to stay with 1080p.
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post #119 of 151 Old 11-10-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

For a tv, e.g., of 65" or less say, I think you are quite right to stay with 1080p.

Yea, but tell them how awesome it is to sit close to the up scaled picture of the vw1000. Same could be said with close seating with a 65" panel. I have a few 65"+ panels and the seating is at 4-6' for one in my bar room.
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post #120 of 151 Old 11-10-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Yea, but tell them how awesome it is to sit close to the up scaled picture of the vw1000. Same could be said with close seating with a 65" panel. I have a few 65"+ panels and the seating is at 4-6' for one in my bar room.

Agree, that if you sit 4 ft from a 65" tv then 4K should be appreciated; I just didn't think that this was a typical situation. It is of course the ratio of viewing distance to screen size that is relevant.
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