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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > 4K OR NOT 4K
seanbryan's Avatar seanbryan 02:03 PM 11-10-2013
Yeah, but you guys are discussing whether or not the benefit of 4K can be noticed based on screen size and viewing distance while willkm79's post was insinuating that owning a 4K display would actually be a disadvantage for watching 1080p material, because of the upscaling. Which is bunk.

tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 02:39 PM 11-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by willkm79 View Post
 

I'm not in a big hurry to buy a 4k TV because it seems like owner will be at a big disadvantage for picture quality unless watching 4k. And most material will not be 4k. Most material is not even 1080p today.

 

I mean even if you are watcing 1080p the TV has to upscale all the way to 4k. How can that look good? Seems like an awful lot of material that has to be "made up."

 

"all the way" ?  You understand that 1080 is a vertical resolution, and 4K is a horizontal, right?

 

1080 is 1920x1080, AKA colloquially as "2K".  4K when regarding UHD is 3840x2160.  The worst case scenario is a nearest neighbor upscale of 1x1 to 2x2, which would produce nominally identical results with no degradation at all.  And it's even possible for that NN-upscale to be superior to 2K (as cogently posited by Chronoptimist) because of the decrease in the surrounding grid.  And using upscaling algorithms to figure out better fits for the extra pixels does in fact work fairly well IRL.  Have you seen it in person?  The Sony implementation at least seems great IMO.


Brian Hampton's Avatar Brian Hampton 03:35 AM 11-14-2013
I look forward to owning a 4k set.

It has to get much cheaper though, so I'll be waitin.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 04:08 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by willkm79 View Post

I'm not in a big hurry to buy a 4k TV because it seems like owner will be at a big disadvantage for picture quality unless watching 4k. And most material will not be 4k. Most material is not even 1080p today.

I mean even if you are watcing 1080p the TV has to upscale all the way to 4k. How can that look good? Seems like an awful lot of material that has to be "made up." Im a little leery of the whole idea because it seems like so much processing will have to be involved. Personally, I think it will be a better move to just buy a 1080p TV. Then even if you watch 4k material, your TV only has to downscale which is better than having to upscale.

I hope they don't stop making 1080p TVs.

It easy to know you have not seen a good 4K display.smile.gif
Brian Hampton's Avatar Brian Hampton 05:03 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

It easy to know you have not seen a good 4K display.smile.gif

My Best Buy does a great job of making 4K look not worth it.

They have a 4K display setup and it's often running some overly dark music video for a song that sux anyway.
humbland's Avatar humbland 08:29 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

I look forward to owning a 4k set.

It has to get much cheaper though, so I'll be waitin.

+1 (actually +4K) smile.gif
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 09:26 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

I look forward to owning a 4k set.

It has to get much cheaper though, so I'll be waitin.

+1 (actually +4K) smile.gif

 

There are 39" 4K sets for $700 currently.  Chinese stuff.  And a 50" for $1179.  Currently also there is a 55" 4K Sony for $3500 and a 65" for $4500.  Not 2K prices yet, but 4K LCD was quickly out of the stupid range and into the reachable.


Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 10:52 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
There are 39" 4K sets for $700 currently. Chinese stuff. And a 50" for $1179. Currently also there is a 55" 4K Sony for $3500 and a 65" for $4500. Not 2K prices yet, but 4K LCD was quickly out of the stupid range and into the reachable.

Those are way too small. I look forward to owning a 4K projector. Which I'm sure will come down in price eventually. How far in a year or two is anyone's guess. One thing I know from 10+ years of owning projectors - good quality built reliable projectors - no matter what the resolution - will never be " cheap ". And " cheap " projectors will unfortunately never be quality built and reliable.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 11:07 AM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
 
Quote:
There are 39" 4K sets for $700 currently. Chinese stuff. And a 50" for $1179. Currently also there is a 55" 4K Sony for $3500 and a 65" for $4500. Not 2K prices yet, but 4K LCD was quickly out of the stupid range and into the reachable.

Those are way too small. I look forward to owning a 4K projector. Which I'm sure will come down in price eventually. How far in a year or two is anyone's guess. One thing I know from 10+ years of owning projectors - good quality built reliable projectors - no matter what the resolution - will never be " cheap ". And " cheap " projectors will unfortunately never be quality built and reliable.

 

It was just a general response to waiting for the 4K prices to come down.  Projectors are a tiny percentage of the market.


humbland's Avatar humbland 05:37 PM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Those are way too small. I look forward to owning a 4K projector. Which I'm sure will come down in price eventually. How far in a year or two is anyone's guess. One thing I know from 10+ years of owning projectors - good quality built reliable projectors - no matter what the resolution - will never be " cheap ". And " cheap " projectors will unfortunately never be quality built and reliable.

+1 on Craig's post.
A 4K Projector is on my Santa wish list. Unfortunately, I have a feeling it will be there (on the list) for a while...
In the mean time, I can always sit really close to a 1080p plasma and dream wink.gif
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 06:12 PM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
 

There are 39" 4K sets for $700 currently.  Chinese stuff.  And a 50" for $1179.  Currently also there is a 55" 4K Sony for $3500 and a 65" for $4500.  Not 2K prices yet, but 4K LCD was quickly out of the stupid range and into the reachable.

 

To add to this list, TCL (apparently having been awakened out of their coma by the commotion) now has their 4K 50".  It's priced at $999 at TigerDirect.  It's not yet at amazon---but you can order it there and wait.

 

Note: I don't know if it has the 30hz limitation that the Seiki did.  Getting specs on TCLs is a bit of a challenge.


Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 06:20 PM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

To add to this list, TCL (apparently having been awakened out of their coma by the commotion) now has their 4K 50".  It's priced at $999 at TigerDirect.  It's not yet at amazon---but you can order it there and wait.

Note: I don't know if it has the 30hz limitation that the Seiki did.  Getting specs on TCLs is a bit of a challenge.

After taking a look at the input signals the TV will accept listed in the user manual, you cannot send the TV a native UHD signal. It will only accept 1080p and below through all the HDMI ports.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 08:58 PM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

To add to this list, TCL (apparently having been awakened out of their coma by the commotion) now has their 4K 50".  It's priced at $999 at TigerDirect.  It's not yet at amazon---but you can order it there and wait.

Note: I don't know if it has the 30hz limitation that the Seiki did.  Getting specs on TCLs is a bit of a challenge.

After taking a look at the input signals the TV will accept listed in the user manual, you cannot send the TV a native UHD signal. It will only accept 1080p and below through all the HDMI ports.

 

Where did you see that listed?  I'm looking through that user manual right now, and it's showing this:
 

Quote:

 

HDMI 1 IN (4K/DVI IN) : Provides an uncompressed digital connection that carries
both video and audio data by way of an integrated mini-plug cable. Since HDMI
technology is based on Digital Visual Interface (DVI), the jack on the back of your TV
is also compatible with DVI components.
HDMI 2 IN (4K) : Lets you connect a component, such as a digital cable or satellite
box, with an HDMI output for the best picture quality.
HDMI 3 IN (4K) : Lets you connect a component, such as a digital cable or satellite
box, with an HDMI output for the best picture quality.
HDMI 4 IN (MHL) : Lets you connect a component, such as

 

EDIT: I see what you're talking about.  They have a table with this in it:

Quote:
Input Signal Compatability
Antenna/Cable 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (NTSC, ATSC, and QAM formats)
Composite Video 480i
Component Video 480i, 480p, 720p/60Hz, 1080i/60Hz
HDMI 480i, 480p, 720p/60Hz, 1080i/60Hz, 1080p/60Hz
PC VGA SVGA XGA SXGA WXGA

 

A cut and paste error from a prior manual?  Must be.  The two pieces of text in their manual are in conflict.

 

EDIT 2: I'm betting it's because they didn't want put down "30Hz".


Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 09:08 PM 11-14-2013
I'd still email their tech support to get a straight answer just to confirm you can send this TV a true UHD 3840 x 2160 signal.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 09:27 PM 11-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'd still email their tech support to get a straight answer just to confirm you can send this TV a true UHD 3840 x 2160 signal.

 

Me too.  Or wait for a review someplace.


iwanrs's Avatar iwanrs 10:01 PM 11-25-2013
Can we list ALL true 4K projectors available NOW or before Christmas this year, with retail price ?
1. Sony VPL-VW1000 $????
2. JVC ????
stanger89's Avatar stanger89 05:54 AM 11-26-2013
Sony VW1100 (~$28k IIRC)
Sony VW600 (~$13k)
Sim2 Cinema Quatro (~$160k IIRC)
JVC SH4NLG, only MSRP I can find is $148k from an Australian dealer

I think that's it unless you start looking at DCI machines.
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 08:12 AM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Sony VW1100 (~$28k IIRC)
Sony VW600 (~$13k)
Sim2 Cinema Quatro (~$160k IIRC)
JVC SH4NLG, only MSRP I can find is $148k from an Australian dealer

I think that's it unless you start looking at DCI machines.

That list makes a VW600ES look like a bargain. smile.gif
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 11:45 AM 11-26-2013
Quote:
That list makes a VW600ES look like a bargain

If you consider the cost of the other 4K projectors, and 3 chip DLP projectors, the VW600 is a bargain. if I was in the market for a top tier projector like a 3 chip DLP, I'd certainly look at the VW600 very carefully too. smile.gif
stanger89's Avatar stanger89 12:20 PM 11-26-2013
That's some nice spin considering what the VW500 costs in relation to other projectors outside the US tongue.gif
bobpaule's Avatar bobpaule 02:24 PM 11-26-2013
4k if your screen is above 100"

I would wait until next Christmas when hopefully the 4k madness will fuel
the optical-to-house aka FIOS explosion, IMHO the only way to make
4k mainstream without 1h buffer times.

Today's 15k 4k PJ will be obsolete in 2 years, then look at JVC posing with
another one of their Chinese machines with sub-4K panels (3840), a premie delivery for sure.
SOWK's Avatar SOWK 02:25 PM 11-26-2013
Some are wondering why 1080P up scaled to 4K doesn't look horrible... Well its easy...

1 Pixel of 1080P source becomes 4 pixels of a 4K Panel.
Little to no scaling artifacts.

Its an easy upscale.


Not so true with what we have had in the past...

720P to 1080P

it was not an direct 1:4 ratio like 4K. That's why getting 720P to look great on 1080P was not so easy.




Another Example:

iPad / iPad 2 to any iPad with Retina


1024X768 to 2048X1536 is a 1:4 Ratio. That's why everything just looks natural when running software not designed for the retina screen.
Craig Peer's Avatar Craig Peer 03:09 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
That's some nice spin considering what the VW500 costs in relation to other projectors outside the US

So the VW600 at the US price isn't a good deal compared to a Sim Super Lumis ( provided you are in the market for an expensive projector to begin with )? Ok. ...................
stanger89's Avatar stanger89 07:11 PM 11-26-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Some are wondering why 1080P up scaled to 4K doesn't look horrible... Well its easy...

Yeah, because scaling isn't a bad thing, regardless of what "internet wisdom" seems to think.
Quote:
1 Pixel of 1080P source becomes 4 pixels of a 4K Panel.
Little to no scaling artifacts.

Its an easy upscale.

It's actually got nothing to do with that, scaling just isn't a bad thing.
Quote:
Another Example:

iPad / iPad 2 to any iPad with Retina


1024X768 to 2048X1536 is a 1:4 Ratio. That's why everything just looks natural when running software not designed for the retina screen.

Ah a perfect example how the whole idea of "scaling is bad" is wrong/flawed. The reason why the scaling is bad in this case has nothing to with scaling being "bad' or "hard" or anything of the sort, it's because text and the like are rendered for 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1024x768 iPad, meaning it relies on the fact that pixels have visible/perceptible size, so text is one pixel wide and black and white can be placed next to each other. The problem comes that signal processing theory, resampling, "scaling" relies on signals being sampled, not artificially generated. They have to have a bandwidth less than half the resolution (sampling frequency) text on a computer, or Joe Kane's favorite test patterns. The simple fact is you can't resample something like 1:1 pixel mapped text to any resolution and have it look good because it's not sampled in the first place.

However this doesn't apply to movies or anything of the like since those are all sampled, you can resample those to any higher resolution without much trouble. That said there are enhancements you can do on top of resampling that can improve the image, basically improve sharpness, now that's the hard part to do without artifacts.
iwanrs's Avatar iwanrs 07:05 PM 12-15-2013
If I have 1080p video feed into 4k projector (Sony VW1000) and up-scale it to 4k Video on a 134" screen.
What do I expect, regarding the video quality?
cischico's Avatar cischico 07:14 PM 12-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

If I have 1080p video feed into 4k projector (Sony VW1000) and up-scale it to 4k Video on a 134" screen.
What do I expect, regarding the video quality?

RS4810 eShift off


500ES/600ES 1080P Source RC Off


500ES/600ES 1080P Source RC On



Just looks pixelated up close but smooth but feels a little blurry. Look at the 4810 for reference you can clearly see the pixels.


Friends don't let friends not 4K on a 4K projector.


Edited to clarify 1080P source on 500ES with and without RC on.
R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 08:28 PM 12-15-2013
^^^ Just a quibble with the middle image description: the Sony is always upscaling 1080p. Reality Creation is just an additional type of image processing you can add on after that.

Looks like there is some distortion added by the Sony upscaling, then exacerbated by the RC. (E.g. the jaggedness - aliasing? - of the outline on the copter). Perhaps not visible from
the average viewing distance.
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 08:36 PM 12-15-2013
I haven't seen the 600 RC yet, but on the 1000 I am seeing much better results from the HTPC @ 4K + MadVR scaling and the 2041 as well, no ringing in sight, even with your nose pressed to the screen.
cischico's Avatar cischico 09:29 PM 12-15-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

^^^ Just a quibble with the middle image description: the Sony is always upscaling 1080p. Reality Creation is just an additional type of image processing you can add on after that.

Looks like there is some distortion added by the Sony upscaling, then exacerbated by the RC. (E.g. the jaggedness - aliasing? - of the outline on the copter). Perhaps not visible from
the average viewing distance.


You're right it is always upscaling I was thinking about it in another sense such as doing a 1:4 map and thats it. RC is off on that middle pic.
R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 09:31 PM 12-15-2013
I linked to that in depth French test of the Sony 500ES earlier in the other Sony thread. The reviewer stated that he got by far the best results bypassing the Sony's scaling and RC, using the Lumagen 2041 to upscale
and tweaking the image via the Lumagen's sharpness/contrast controls combined with the Darbee.

Since I plan to try sending my JVC R57 upscaled 1080p from the Lumagen 2041, out of curiosity I emailed the reviewer and asked about his settings. He sent them to me; should be interesting to try on the JVC.
Tags: Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector
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