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post #1 of 151 Old 09-09-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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4K or Ultra HD is the latest hype in Projector/TV industry.

Sony, JVC have their 4K Projectors released.
Samsung, Sony, LG have 4K LED TVs on display.

The question is, do we need it?
If yes, do we need it NOW, when there is no source of 4K contents available.
If we convert the standard HD to 4K, can we really spot the difference that worth the investment?

I am tempted to have Sony 4K projector, but my "other me" saying please don't.

4K or not 4K that is the question . . . as now.
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post #2 of 151 Old 09-09-2013, 09:26 PM
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Why not let the inevitable increase in content availability and inevitable decrease in display pricing create more favorable conditions?

I would wait. I'm not sure we need it, but I can say that I don't need it now.
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post #3 of 151 Old 09-09-2013, 09:29 PM
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Errrr, I mean, of course you need it!

Go ahead and sell your 1080p unit off cheap to those of us staying a generation or three behind. wink.gif
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post #4 of 151 Old 09-09-2013, 09:36 PM
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To be clear, Sony is the only name in town with a consumer 4K projector. JVC doesn't have a 4K projector out yet. With that said, there are other benefits to these projectors other than watching UHD source material. There are a ton of Sony 1000ES users who think that upscaled 1080p blu-ray content is well worth the cost of the projector. The overall image quality of the projector, native 4K panels notwithstanding, is totally worth the cost of the machine.

Personally I don't think the vast majority of people need UHD content. Unless you're willing to rock a 10'+ wide screen you aren't going to see a huge benefit from UHD content. Most people aren't going to have the space and money to have a setup like this.
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post #5 of 151 Old 09-09-2013, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah View Post

Errrr, I mean, of course you need it!

Go ahead and sell your 1080p unit off cheap to those of us staying a generation or three behind. wink.gif

Totally agree we are all the victim of technology/progress !
LP - Open Tape - Cassette - VHS/Betamax(?) - CD/Laser Disc - DVD - Bluray, some of them can be well by passed.
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post #6 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 03:51 PM
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I could either sit a bit closer to my screens or ( heaven forbid ) get bigger screens if I had 4K. If I move closer or get a bigger screen now, I'd be able to see pixels. So yes - we need it. Whether you are ready to be an early adopter or can wait for 4K to mature - that's a different question.

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post #7 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

Totally agree we are all the victim of technology/progress !
LP - Open Tape - Cassette - VHS/Betamax(?) - CD/Laser Disc - DVD - Bluray, some of them can be well by passed.

"Victim" of technology/progress!" OMG, the horror and unfairness of it to the consumer...... eek.gifrolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #8 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 04:27 PM
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No one is forcing anyone to buy into UHD. If 1080p Blu-ray is anything like DVD (and I'm guessing it very well will be) 1080p content will live a long life aside UHD content just like DVD has with Blu-ray.
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post #9 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 05:39 PM
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I doubt it will be as big of difference from DVD to Blu Ray. It probably won't be a huge difference, but I'm getting a 4k projector within the next two years.
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post #10 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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How far human eyes can detect any more details of resolution above certain level, HD, 4K, 8k. There must be some limit set?
It is like human ears can not hear anything above 20 kHz (?) of sound frequency.
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post #11 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

How far human eyes can detect any more details of resolution above certain level, HD, 4K, 8k. There must be some limit set?
It is like human ears can not hear anything above 20 kHz (?) of sound frequency.

Even on a 4K 60" flat panel, you can clearly see a difference, when standing 6' to 8' away.

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post #12 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Even on a 4K 60" flat panel, you can clearly see a difference, when standing 6' to 8' away.

Is 4k end of the road for our Video/Pixel journey?
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post #13 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

Is 4k end of the road for our Video journey?

I think that it's a safe bet for at least another 15 years. The difference in picture quality gets less and less pronounced with current source material at screen sizes most common. I'd say buy a high quality flat panel or projector today and you should be set for a long time. As the price comes down so will the quality. I personally think its worth the investment.
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post #14 of 151 Old 09-11-2013, 10:27 PM
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Supposedly you need at 10ft wide screen for benefits with 4k. So, 4K should cover everyone. Can we actually see any benefits of 8K?
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post #15 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 05:51 AM
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15 years? Not a chance. Our industry does not work that way.

And once again, the 10ft wide criterion is to be able to distinguish and resolve the differences between a 2K and 4K source both displayed on a 4K projector. The difference between a 4K and 2K display showing a 2K source are readily apparent. With a small screen a 4K source may also look a tad better but you need to go to 10 ft to see all the differences and to be able to see just how poorlyor good the work flow was in 4K

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post #16 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Even on a 4K 60" flat panel, you can clearly see a difference, when standing 6' to 8' away.

True. I thought the only way to view 4k would be on a projector.
Saw my first 4k panel this past week and was blown away!
I do wonder how up scaling broadcast HD will look though.
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post #17 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

True. I thought the only way to view 4k would be on a projector.
Saw my first 4k panel this past week and was blown away!
I do wonder how up scaling broadcast HD will look though.

Hopefully in time we'll have broadcast 4k smile.gif Maybe even as soon as early 2015. Live sport in 4k? That will be me in heaven!
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post #18 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

True. I thought the only way to view 4k would be on a projector.
Saw my first 4k panel this past week and was blown away!
I do wonder how up scaling broadcast HD will look though.


The issue with the content is whether or not film content will "blow you away". Sure, digital video shot with a 4K camera should look spectacular, but if the only way to get the benefits of 4K is with current films/animation/video, it may not be worth a premium. You know they will not give us 4K if they can't charge a premium for it.

I saw a 4K demo in my Magnolia store and went "meh". I would certainly think it would be great for projectors, but the 60" panel they had did nothing special for me. Probably wasn't running the 4K demo loop, if I know Best Buy as well as I think I do.

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post #19 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

How far human eyes can detect any more details of resolution above certain level, HD, 4K, 8k. There must be some limit set?
It is like human ears can not hear anything above 20 kHz (?) of sound frequency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Supposedly you need at 10ft wide screen for benefits with 4k. So, 4K should cover everyone. Can we actually see any benefits of 8K?

The distance depends on the size of the screen. What I've seen is that human vision is good to about 100 pixels per degree, if you sit at SMTPE reference seating distance that's 43.4 degrees, so 4,340 pixels horizontally, that's for 3 picture heights from a 2.39:1 image.

If you go 2 picture heights (SMPTE closest) that's 61.8 degrees or about 6180 pixels.

So 4K is probably good to about 3 picture heights seating distance, closer than that and there's benefit to higher resolutions, like 8k.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #20 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 09:47 AM
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i have not seen a 4k projector(only the 4k sony tv) but i do not see pixel structure or feel like i need more detail watching on a 120" screen from 12-14feet away.

and considering my sources are: wii(480p), dvd(480p), xbox360(720p), ps3(720p), cable(720p), HTPC(1080p), BD(1080p) i feel like i'm limited only by my sources, not my displays. i will not look at the idea of UHD until sources are available(and i don't mean 4 independent films that can be downloaded from a 700 dollar service, i mean physical media of blockbuster content), or it's a small increase in price over similar quality 1080p units.

imo, the best stop-gap to give you UHD like performance for your 1080p sources is one of JVC's e-shift projectors. seems like a 1080p source played on an e-shift model would be very close to a 1080p source played on a true UHD model. so until UHD content is widely available, the benefits of a 'real' UHD projector aren't going to justify double or triple the cost of one of the e-shift JVC's.

i think ultimately the question is, when do you plan to upgrade? if it' 10yrs from now, maybe 4k makes sense. 5yrs from now, probably not. 3yrs or less, no way.

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post #21 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

How far human eyes can detect any more details of resolution above certain level, HD, 4K, 8k. There must be some limit set?
It is like human ears can not hear anything above 20 kHz (?) of sound frequency.

nah, that's more like increasing the color to include infrared or ultraviolet...

resolution is all about size/distance.

imagine you have a room with a 10' viewing distance. with SD content you could watch on a 32" tv and it'd look good, with HD a 65" would look like a window, and with UHD you could easily go 100"+ and maintain that life-like detail. the question isn't how many more pixels do we need, it's how many more inches. if you want a 200" screen from a 10foot viewing distance, then 8k might be necessary.

but i'm not sure we'll see much in the way of increases in pixel density beyond UHD(they're having enough trouble figuring out how to store/broadcast UHD content), but maybe something to increase immersion like the eyefinity systems PC users have had for gaming for years. OLED is already showing curved screens, maybe they will eventually give us a wraparound screen that takes up nearly 180* of our vision.

whatever the case may be, i'm 100% happy with 1080p and would be content if there was no upgrade beyond that, but i'm sure 10yrs from now when i pop in an old bluray (and watch it on my 200" display from 10feet away, haha) i'll have a similar experience to what happens now when i watch a DVD on my 120" screen.

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post #22 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Even on a 4K 60" flat panel, you can clearly see a difference, when standing 6' to 8' away.

I normally sit 10' from a 10' wide screen. 4k sounds SWEET.

Problem is I was planning to buy something new this year like a jvc rs49 something something to replace my 5 year old rs10.
If JVC does or does not have a hdmi 2.0 offering this year, how long before it trickles down to the mid level price point? Next year? 2 years from now? (this year? biggrin.gif)

I could hold onto it one more year but if it's 2-3 years before, realistically, hitting my price point it would still feel crappy paying full market price for a 1080p this year knowing I have a real limited time before it's not cool any more. smile.gif
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post #23 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 03:38 PM
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I normally sit 10' from a 10' wide screen. 4k sounds SWEET.

Problem is I was planning to buy something new this year like a jvc rs49 something something to replace my 5 year old rs10.
If JVC does or does not have a hdmi 2.0 offering this year, how long before it trickles down to the mid level price point? Next year? 2 years from now? (this year? biggrin.gif)

I could hold onto it one more year but if it's 2-3 years before, realistically, hitting my price point it would still feel crappy paying full market price for a 1080p this year knowing I have a real limited time before it's not cool any more. smile.gif

if you're replacement cycle is 5yrs, doesn't it make more sense to spend ~5k this year for a 1080p projector and replace it 5yrs from now when UHD is reasonably common and costs ~5k to replace, then to spend over 10k now for a projector that has almost no advantage displaying todays 1080p content, and not be able to afford upgrading in 5yrs?

my advice is grab a clearance 4810 or similar this year, keep the extra money ready if UHD becomes cheap any time soon.

i'm just saying, if i was going to spend the money it'll cost for a uhd projector today, i'd be buying a really high end 1080p now, and upgrading it sooner with the money i saved

i'd guess it'll be at least 3yrs before anything UHD is considered a good value. you'll probably see some low price units, but they will be terrible quality(like the $1000 UHD tv's) and not an 'upgrade' at all.

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post #24 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 04:09 PM
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I normally sit 10' from a 10' wide screen. 4k sounds SWEET.

You would definitely see a difference that close to the screen.

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post #25 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by iwanrs View Post

How far human eyes can detect any more details of resolution above certain level, HD, 4K, 8k. There must be some limit set?
It is like human ears can not hear anything above 20 kHz (?) of sound frequency.

Visual acuity is about 3000 /radian, but just like you hearing example - everyone is different.
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post #26 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 05:17 PM
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Wow, there's so many comments here I'd like to reference with a quote, but that's too much work.

Primarily, I'd say the most important and surprising thing I've learned about UHD is that its benefits are not anywhere nearly all about resolution vs visual acuity. To a rather huge degree the benefits are also about color space and bit depth. Even at not so huge screen sizes/viewing distances, there will be extremely obvious benefits to UHD content and displays. 10-bit or 12-bit color depth of even Rec. 709 color space would be a vast improvement to 1080p, but I don't think we'll ever see that combo. But UHD specifies Rec. 2020 which is huge by comparison to Rec. 709 and even DCI. The image below shows the comparison on the CIExy1934 pallette. Rec. 2020 uses about 75% of it, DCI a little over 50%, and Rec. 709 only about a third of it. You will be able to see that like night and day! Plus, Rec. 2020 specifies either 10-bit or 12-bit color depth. We're currently watching 8-bit on BD.



You guys might want to go over and look through the thread here on this area about 4K BD coming sooner than we might have thought.

I also think that JVC e-shift2, 3 (whatever) can be a reasonable transitiion projector. It is rumored that the new models will have a 4K/60 Hz input. That must be HDMI 2.0, but we'll have to see. Yes, the JVC will scale it down to 1080p and apply the e-shift utility, but that's not so bad, as someone said. If it can also pass/display the larger color space and bit depth of an input 4K UHD source such as 4K BD, it will indeed be a fine transitions machine. It might even become an entry level "4K" product, with native UHD panels in higher end models.

I'm like some of you; overdue an upgrade, but wanting the best value. I think that the recommendation of the 4810 is great. Even an RS46 with a Lumagen 2021 would be awesome for a long time.

BTW, FWIW, Lumagen will eventually field a product that will accept UHD 2160p24/30 input AND output as soon as the chips to make it possible become available to them. Lumagens already work in the 10-bit/12-bit realm, but we don't really have any content with that depth...yet.
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post #27 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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All due respect to in depth analyses and research point of views.
My humble opinion: everything people create is for people to enjoy or make a better living.
"From people for people". When we say people are average Joe and Jane and Me and may be You.

It is the same case for 4K research and development, create from people for people's enjoyment.
Now back to basic question, can we the major common people "really see" any difference when we watch 4k from standard HD 1080p?
How far the industries will push us further to accept their developments or what they call "technology progress/invention"?
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post #28 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 07:59 PM
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^^^ Did those unscrupulous 4K charlatans run over a puppy of yours? Geez don't buy it. Many will. Hooray for 4K projection...... and big arse flat panels when prices come down.
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post #29 of 151 Old 09-12-2013, 11:09 PM
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with regards to the color changes, has there been a change recently? like from dvd to bd, or even before dvd? i'm just wondering if I've seen an improvement in color once or twice already. that's one aspect of picture quality i did not think was 'improveable' really. if red is red, and blue is blue, etc, what am i missing? if we haven't had an improvement in decades, then i'll be really interested to see if i notice the extra colors. if we've already had improvements, then i'm pretty certain i won't notice a difference because i didn't notice any change yet.

i think UHD for projectors will be ok, but i don't like the idea of UHD for TV's. especially when it appears the only way to get UHD is by using the terrible edgelit LED design rolleyes.gif i'd rather stick with a 720p plasma than a UHD LED(unless it's full array local dimming). and sometimes i do feel like the industry isn't always about doing what's best for performance, but rather convincing consumers that what they can do is what's best for performance. ie, they should be improving black levels and contrast on the LED's, not adding pixels.

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post #30 of 151 Old 09-13-2013, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

with regards to the color changes, has there been a change recently? like from dvd to bd, or even before dvd? i'm just wondering if I've seen an improvement in color once or twice already. that's one aspect of picture quality i did not think was 'improveable' really. if red is red, and blue is blue, etc, what am i missing? if we haven't had an improvement in decades, then i'll be really interested to see if i notice the extra colors. if we've already had improvements, then i'm pretty certain i won't notice a difference because i didn't notice any change yet.

The answer to all your questions is yes. What you/we are still missing is the difference between the video we see on the screen and "reality." Reality is defined by what is regarded as the visible spectrum for humans. That stange colorful glob of an image I attached in post #26 is known as the CIE Chart, and represents in xy coordinates all the colors visible to humans (but can't display their lower/higher luminance brighter/darker hues on a two dimensional chart). You can see that our eyes are much more sensitve to green. Notice D65 white (or neutral) is where all three primaries are equal. Notice that the closer to D65 you are, a given color is less saturated.

Every video format has a defined "gamut" within the CIE Chart. Older video formats have all had primaries that define a smaller portion of the visible spectrum, therefore less lifelike. So, you see red is not red, etc...We are capable of seeing each color far more vibrantly than video has given us. What if that changes...dramatically?

Each video format defines its gamut so that the image infrastructure from capture to display uses the same one...so that it is faithful to what was captured or "intended." The gamut for UHD is dramatically larger, nearer human perception, than anything we've seen so far.

What about color depth? Depth provides for how many colors we can see within the gamut. I kind of think of the gamut as the boundaries, and the bit rate as the color resolution within that gamut. The higher the bit rate, the more colors that can be displayed...closer again to how we see color in reality. A system that has lower color depth will render a given image with less realistic colors and poor transitions in lighting conditions in the content. This can cause banding, etc.

If UHD (source content, processing, and displays) render Rec. 2020 at 12-bit depth (a huge leap from 8-bit blu-ray), we will all see that very dramatically....whether you are watching on a big screen up close or not.

I'm sure I've not been 100% accurate here, and somebody should step in and rescue me. But I've tried to describe it in laymen's terms...hopefully reasonably accurately. smile.gif
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