Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 06:34 PM
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I sit 13 feet away from a 120" diagonal 16x9 screen. Would love to do a 2.35:1 screen so that my 16x9 image stayed the same size and my 2.35:1 was bigger. But my main speakers prevent that at the moment.

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post #362 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 06:46 PM
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I hope you and your wife get to visit before my house sells and we move to Florida. My theater will be a lot smaller but my screen will be bigger. My existing theater can be seen in the listings for my house 22200 Zion Road, Brookeville, MD 20833. The main reason for me wanting bigger is 10 ft wide is that is what JK recommends for the minimum size for 4K. I will probably go for JKP 1.3 because the Sony is really not bright enough for 10.5 ft wide with a unity gain screen like the Snomatt.

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post #363 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 06:47 PM
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Mark, please don't take that last post as a knock on you, the VW1000ES seems to be a fantastic projector based on everything I've heard from people I trust and I'm sure it is a knockout for more than just its panel resolution. There is a lot more that comes into play when viewing an image (brightness, motion resolution, lens quality). I'm just saying that the farther you sit from a smaller image, the less resolution you actually need to make something look good.

I bet 720p/1080i HDTV and DVDs do look excellent on the 1000es, probably much better than most projectors. I wonder how close it comes to a blu ray
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post #364 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 06:53 PM
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It looks real good now. Of course the Sony scaling and its ringing and the ringing's interaction with RC is less than stellar. When the Lumagen 4K 60 out is available, it will sing. Right now the lumagen's scaling to 4K 24 or 30 for blurays looks fantastic.

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post #365 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 06:54 PM
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Thanks Blee. I trust all is good with us again.

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post #366 of 1149 Old 01-20-2014, 07:58 PM
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Thanks Blee. I trust all is good with us again.

We all good again smile.gif
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post #367 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 02:35 AM
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...I think the CE companies just look at it as another thing to get people to buy a new display despite NO ONE really needing it.

Right. 3D never took off, now it is all about 4K to keep moving HW, with almost no available content even compared to 3D. Lovely. Of course, a lot of the 4K content playing in stores looks absolutely gorgeous, but I have a feeling most people just think any content will look as good once they take it home...

I'll have to replace the TV in my living room in a year or two. I'll for sure get 4K once I do, even though it'll most likely be a 65". Even then I think "true" 4K content will be scarce. I'm not expecting our local satellite TV providers to have any 4K content live for at least a couple of years (due to the lack of decoders). And as for 4K streaming, not really expecting that to be a viable option. I don't think any of these proprietary 4K players (like from Sony) is the way to go, either. I'll just have to rely on scalers for a while, I guess. tongue.gif

Of course, the same push for 4K is happening in consumer camcorders. Really? We need 4K recordings of our kids? Can't wait for people to start editing them...biggrin.gif

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post #368 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 02:47 AM
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One of the things that scares me the most about a 4K Blu-ray format is the utter lack of real 4K DIs. Though we are seeing a lot of films shot on 4K cameras, most of them have 2K DIs due to cost and the effects work still being done at 2K. Which brings up yet again how unprepared the market is for 4K and how the numbers game is making everyone think they are missing something that they're not.

Quite true. Ironically, the best looking 4K Blu-Rays might actually be those based on new 8K (hello, Mr. Nyquist) scans of older movies (prior to when DI was first used), ideally 65mm films, of course.

Or maybe this could be the first time in history that a consumer video format pushes Hollywood to greater heights (technically) for future movies.
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post #369 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 02:58 AM
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4K BD is useful for 2K DIs. It allows seeing the 2K in 4:4:4 as it was made. With current BDs we get 1080p in 4:2:0 with considerable loss of detail in saturated colours.
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post #370 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 03:36 AM
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4K BD is useful for 2K DIs. It allows seeing the 2K in 4:4:4 as it was made. With current BDs we get 1080p in 4:2:0 with considerable loss of detail in saturated colours.

Isn't the only know confirmed deatil about 4k blu-ray the resolution and evertying else hopes and guesses?
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post #371 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 03:58 AM
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4K BD is useful for 2K DIs. It allows seeing the 2K in 4:4:4 as it was made. With current BDs we get 1080p in 4:2:0 with considerable loss of detail in saturated colours.

Isn't the only know confirmed deatil about 4k blu-ray the resolution and evertying else hopes and guesses?

At worst 4K BD is 4:2:0 like BD, so with 4 times the pixels it has the resolution for 1080p 4:4:4 which is close to 2K 4:4:4 for 16:9. We will have full colour of 1080p unless 4K BD masters are artificially downgraded, which I doubt will happen.
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post #372 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 04:04 AM
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With the procrastination of the Blu-Ray group the horse may be too late out of the stable. Netfix, Amazon and others will be streaming 4K before long no matter how good it is and 4K Blu-Ray disks even if they every come out will only be able to capture a very small market. The people in power need to act and come out with a one disk 2K, 4K solution that will not require a totally new standard. "Nothing is nothing until it becomes something."
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post #373 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 04:47 AM
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Yeah, but the studios still hold the keys to the content. Netflix and the like can't just out movies in 4K (well unless they upconvert them themselves, if that doesn't get them in hot water with the content providers). Netflix and the like can deliver their own content in 4k, but the studios can, and probably will hold back the top tier content for their own preferred format (BD 2.0).
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The main reason for me wanting bigger is 10 ft wide is that is what JK recommends for the minimum size for 4K. I will probably go for JKP 1.3 because the Sony is really not bright enough for 10.5 ft wide with a unity gain screen like the Snomatt.

Every time I read this it makes me cringe a little. This seems like another of Joe's trademark oversimplifications (at best or misunderstanding/misrepresentations at worst). It sounded to me, when I watched that interview, that they basically had some fixed seating distance and tried different sized screens, and that for the seating distance they used, 10ft was the magic size for 4K. But I don't recall him ever talking about what that seating distance was, or what the screen size should be if you have a larger or smaller seating distance.

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post #374 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Isn't the only know confirmed deatil about 4k blu-ray the resolution and evertying else hopes and guesses?

While it is correct the only (very brief) official statements from the BDA have just mentioned support for 4K UHD with no details. I would certainly expect support for at least 10-bit depth and perhaps 12-bit depth. My best guess is they will specify their highest quality 4K UHD format for the new Blu-ray discs as using 4:2:2 with 12-bit depth. Maybe we will learn the actual facts within a few months so we won't have to just make guesses.


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post #375 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 07:13 AM
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And thus basically obsolete any existing Sony projector or panel from being able to display the best that such disc can deliver? The Sony reps on the forum are surely going to allow that even if Sony has to buy Panasonic..

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post #376 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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And thus basically obsolete any existing Sony projector or panel from being able to display the best that such disc can deliver? The Sony reps on the forum are surely going to allow that even if Sony has to buy Panasonic..

Remember that HDMI allows the source and the display to negotiate to agree on the best format supported by both devices. We know that the current Sony 4K displays are limited to 4:2:0 with 8-bits at 60 Hz but what formats can they support at 24Hz, which is what we will be dealing with for most future movie releases on 4K Blu-ray? 4K video @ 24 Hz using 4:2:2 at 12-bit depth is within the bandwidth limits of HDMI 2.0 chips that can only go up to 10.2 Gbps (which is the case for the latest Sony projectors). So this would not be a HDMI issue and if the Sony projectors cannot support this format then that is strictly a limitation in the projector's internal processing. I looked at the operating manual for the VW600ES and found tables under the heading of "preset signals" on pages 53 and 54 and found that for the 4096 x 2160 and the 3840 x 2160 signals that are at 50Hz and 60Hz there is a note that says "Available for YUV420 format signal only" which means 4:2:0 format. However for those 4K signals at 24Hz and 30Hz that note does not apply. The omission is they don't actually list what other chroma subsampling formats and bit depths they actually do support for input signals at the lower refresh rates. So perhaps 4:2:2 is supported at 12-bit depth is already supported after all. Do you have any info from Sony as to what the actual supported formats are for 4K @ 24Hz signals?.


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post #377 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 07:58 AM
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Its really a shame that we can't get more info. The US Sony guys probably don't know. Its I guess part of the sport, trying to figure out what the completed puzzle looks like missing some of the pieces.

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post #378 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Its really a shame that we can't get more info. The US Sony guys probably don't know. Its I guess part of the sport, trying to figure out what the completed puzzle looks like missing some of the pieces.

I haven't looked into it, but a question for those forum members that have put together HTPCs with 4K outputs, what 4K formats can you output that could be used for testing the capabilities of the Sony projectors?

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post #379 of 1149 Old 01-21-2014, 08:15 AM
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First I would need the upgrade. Then the appropriate 4K signal generator which could be a computer with all the right stuff and then I still wouldn't do it because the speculation is more fun and if the results are bad, it would crush hope..

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post #380 of 1149 Old 02-04-2014, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw the following Post-CES info on "Pocket-lint":

After CES 2014, where a selection of 4K TVs were on show, and Netflix announced its 4K content, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced it will release 4K Blu-ray discs.

While the future may be in streamed 4K UHD content, Blu-ray discs will also be packing in 4K quality videos for those unable to stream such high-quality media.

The decision to create 4K Blu-ray has been made, but there is still a lot of bureaucracy to get through before they make it to you. In fact, without Blockbuster or HMV all over the place these days, 4K Blu-rays may only appear as online and supermarket sales anyway.

Victor Matsuda, the BDA’s global promotions committee chairman, said of 4K Blu-ray disc creation: "[It's] not just looking at delivering the requisite number of pixels, but at the range of features that contribute to the overall consumer experience – factors such as high dynamic range, bit depth, colour gamut, content protection and mobility and digital bridge opportunities that encourage content ownership and collection and enable flexible enjoyment of that content in mobile environments."

Also Twice has published an interview with two spokesmen (including victor Matsuda, quoted above, and Andy Parsons) for the BDA that talks about 4KUHD for BD - HERE

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post #381 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 11:03 AM
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so will 4K BDs (Dark Knight, Star Trek, Avengers etc) be available on Amazon in 2014 or 2015 or 2016?

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post #382 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 11:23 AM
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so will 4K BDs (Dark Knight, Star Trek, Avengers etc) be available on Amazon in 2014 or 2015 or 2016?

We do not know, but my guess is 2015. smile.gif

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post #383 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 03:50 PM
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We do not know, but my guess is 2015. smile.gif

January or December 2015? smile.gif

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post #384 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 04:31 PM
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January or December 2015? smile.gif

Yes. Some time between January and December. biggrin.gif

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post #385 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 05:16 PM
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Couldn't care less. Sony will put the licensing fee so high for third party mfgs for their first 24 months worth of 4k Blu-Ray offerings that retail discs will come in at $44.95...or higher. Rediculous. Damn things are going to be as high as an Xbox/PS4 game soon...

Until cable/satellite make the switch to 50%+ of their channel lineups in native 4k, it's a technology best served for early adopters with little discipline and money to burn.
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Couldn't care less. Sony will put the licensing fee so high for third party mfgs for their first 24 months worth of 4k Blu-Ray offerings that retail discs will come in at $44.95...or higher. Rediculous. Damn things are going to be as high as an Xbox/PS4 game soon...

Until cable/satellite make the switch to 50%+ of their channel lineups in native 4k, it's a technology best served for early adopters with little discipline and money to burn.

Don't care. LaserDiscs were in the $80 price range and the format thrives for more than a decade. $50 for 4K disc? Bring it on!

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post #386 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 05:17 PM
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I'm surprised at how hdmi 2.0 has not really made its way into any products. I was hoping that maybe AVRs or at least video cards would have showed up by now. Even though I'm not in a rush, I do like to hear about others enjoying it.
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post #387 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 05:22 PM
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Well, HDMI 2.0 certification process was not ready until Dec 2014 so you won't see HDMI 2.0 until at least May/June.

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post #388 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 05:23 PM
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I'm surprised at how hdmi 2.0 has not really made its way into any products. I was hoping that maybe AVRs or at least video cards would have showed up by now. Even though I'm not in a rush, I do like to hear about others enjoying it.

Nothing new has started shipping, since HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 specs have been determined. I think we will see several new products ship this year with the new specs.

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post #389 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 05:28 PM
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Well, HDMI 2.0 certification process was not ready until Dec 2014 so you won't see HDMI 2.0 until at least May/June.

That's good to know. I know we will soon
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post #390 of 1149 Old 03-04-2014, 06:46 PM
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Well, HDMI 2.0 certification process was not ready until Dec 2014 so you won't see HDMI 2.0 until at least May/June.

I think you meant December 2013. December 2014 is still a wee bit off. smile.gif

I have bet several high end cigars that 4K Blurays (machines and discs) won't be shipping this year but we will see working prototypes at Cedia.

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