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post #451 of 1062 Old 03-16-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I hope they use their brain, if they serviced the current owners, people will be more loyal to JVC brand. Besides, their next gen projectors won't be released until end of November 2014 at the earliest.

Will they get announced in September?

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post #452 of 1062 Old 03-16-2014, 03:00 PM
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Yes, they usually are announced at CEDIA and released in November, or in the case of X700, it was delayed until end of Jan eek.gif

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post #453 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Pioneer is scheduled to announce their new AVRs (perhaps this week) and it appears there are models with HDMI 2.0 inputs. Check out the post by Chris Walker of Pioneer Electronics from 5 days ago HERE.



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10.2 Gbps or 18 Gbps? smile.gif




Info in now out about several of Pioneer's first AVRs with HDMI 2.0. HERE is the link for the VSW-1124-K. This a 7.2 channel AVR and according to that web page:

"Offering 7 HDMI 2.0 inputs, the VSX-1124-K handles 4K2K Ultra HD video at 60 frames per seconds. 4K Ultra HD is the latest high-definition video display format, with four times the resolution of 1080p. Ready to deliver 4K Ultra HD video signals to a compatible display, the Pioneer VSX-1124 supports home theater systems dedicated to producing the highest quality picture available today. HDMI 2.0 is also backwards compatible with earlier versions of HDMI. A future firmware update will allow 4:4:4 based 4K2K 60P content to be handled offering up to 18GBPS throughput."

The VSX-1124-K retails for only $599 and there are two lower priced models also equipped with HDMI 2.0.

The model VSX-1024-K has the same statement as shown above for HDMI 2.0 upgradability to 18 Gbps and this model retails for $499. Link - HERE.

The VSX-824-K is a low end 5.2 channel AVR that retails for $399 and has HDMI 2.0 inputs that are also said to be upgradable to full 18 Gbps bandwidth.

In Pioneer's Elite AVR line up there are now two models listed with HDMI 2.0 inputs. The VSX-80 is a 7.2 channel model that retails for $700 (link is HERE) and has HDMI inputs upgradable to 18 Gbps.

The VSX-44 is lower priced at $500 and is a 7.2 channel AVR with HDMI inputs upgradable to 18 Gbps - the link is HERE.

As for higher end Elite AVRs:.

Chris Walker, the Director of Product Planning for Pioneer Electronics, has posted that the high-end 2014 Elite models will be the last to be announced and to ship. He also posted (Link HERE):

"For 2014 the Pioneer line-up will stop and $599 and the Elite lineup will offer 2 Class A/B based Receivers and 5 Class D3 based receivers (Just like last year for Elite)"

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post #454 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Yes, they usually are announced at CEDIA and released in November, or in the case of X700, it was delayed until end of Jan eek.gif

Not in the US. We received the RS57 in December.

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post #455 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 06:38 AM
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The Pioneer chip is NOT upgraded from 10 to 18 gbps. Hardware can NOT be upgraded using firmware. The chip's bandwidth is already capable of 18 gbps, the firmware is merely flicking the feature "switch"

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post #456 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 06:59 AM
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I don't see a mention of HDCP 2.2 support, is this a given on the Pioneer?

it looks like Onkyo made a press release as well, specifically mentioning HDCP 2.2 support. + some form of MultiEQ, Pioneer appears to continue with MCAA.

http://www.twice.com/articletype/news/onkyo-adds-hdmi-20-60hz-4k/110298
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post #457 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 07:17 AM
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Maybe Lumagen can have a press release next smile.gif
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post #458 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

A future firmware update will allow 4:4:4 based 4K2K 60P content to be handled offering up to 18GBPS throughput.

Very nice! smile.gif
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post #459 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 08:29 AM
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What are you guys take on the Pioneer and Onkyo new hdmi 2.0 AVRs? Considering that Pioneer is HDCP 2.2 also. Are these worth looking at? I'm still waiting on a HDMI 2.0 video card for a HTPC I'm about to build, but will welcome one of these inexpensive AVRs. I still want to wait to see what Denon brings to the table, but I'm in a need for a AVR.
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post #460 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I don't see a mention of HDCP 2.2 support, is this a given on the Pioneer?

it looks like Onkyo made a press release as well, specifically mentioning HDCP 2.2 support. + some form of MultiEQ, Pioneer appears to continue with MCAA.

http://www.twice.com/articletype/news/onkyo-adds-hdmi-20-60hz-4k/110298

It is not some form of Audyssey MiltiEQ. It is proprietary room correction system from Onkyo. looks like they are dropping Audyssey in these AVR's. Also the HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 is only on one input on the AVR.

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post #461 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 10:57 AM
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thanks for clarifying mike. I was hoping Pioneer would move away from MCAA although I know there's a number of ways around it for multiple subs. I decided to use the Denon 4311 vs my Pioneer SC-67 in my main room and the SC-67 for a smaller room + 1 sub.

I have to guess Denon will announce HDMI 2.0 support soon enough. I still don't see in the press release where Pioneer is stating HDCP 2.2 support, did I miss it?
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post #462 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for clarifying mike. I was hoping Pioneer would move away from MCAA although I know there's a number of ways around it for multiple subs. I decided to use the Denon 4311 vs my Pioneer SC-67 in my main room and the SC-67 for a smaller room + 1 sub.

I have to guess Denon will announce HDMI 2.0 support soon enough. I still don't see in the press release where Pioneer is stating HDCP 2.2 support, did I miss it?

I believe any HDMI 2.0 certified implementation is required to have HDCP 2.2 (or later). I will check to confirm this.

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post #463 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I believe any HDMI 2.0 certified implementation is required to have HDCP 2.2 (or later). I will check to confirm this.

From my understanding of HDMI 2.0, that is correct.

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post #464 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 12:31 PM
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Also the HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 is only on one input on the AVR.

I agree, the image below does imply that HDMI 3 (STB/DVR) is the one with HDCP2.2.


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post #465 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 01:11 PM
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Yep, input #3. smile.gif

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post #466 of 1062 Old 03-17-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for clarifying mike. I was hoping Pioneer would move away from MCAA although I know there's a number of ways around it for multiple subs. I decided to use the Denon 4311 vs my Pioneer SC-67 in my main room and the SC-67 for a smaller room + 1 sub.

I have to guess Denon will announce HDMI 2.0 support soon enough. I still don't see in the press release where Pioneer is stating HDCP 2.2 support, did I miss it?

1. MCACC was developed by Pioneer and Pioneer will never steer away from it
2. There is no need to mention HDCP 2.2. You can't be HDMI 2.0 certified without being HDCP 2.2 compliant

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post #467 of 1062 Old 03-18-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

There is speculation that 4k BD may use Google's open source VP9 codec. The VP9 supports: Rec. 601, Rec. 709, SMPTE-170, SMPTE-240, and sRGB.

IMO, UHD BD will use H.265 because many of the hardware manufactures holds patents in H.265. Have not looked into it but it is my understanding that VP9 does not do 10 bit.
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post #468 of 1062 Old 03-18-2014, 04:52 PM
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I haven't heard that at all (re: VP9). VP9 is okay for streaming but for better overall PQ (ie for front projection, large screen, sports broadcast application), even Sony engineers (who use both VP9 and H265) find that VP9 is lacking in picture quality.

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post #469 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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A follow up on our discussion on HDCP 2.2. I checked with Jeff Park (HDMI tech guru with HDMI Org.) and he says the HDMI 2.0 spec. does not require use of HDCP 2.2, rather it would be optional.

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post #470 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 05:40 AM
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A follow up on our discussion on HDCP 2.2. I checked with Jeff Park (HDMI tech guru with HDMI Org.) and he says the HDMI 2.0 spec. does not require use of HDCP 2.2, rather it would be optional.

So, has it been confirmed that we need HDCP 2.2 to play 4K BD?
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post #471 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 07:01 AM
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So, has it been confirmed that we need HDCP 2.2 to play 4K BD?

I can't say with 100% certainty, but I am pretty confident that HDCP 2.2 will be a requirement for 4K BD.

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post #472 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 07:14 AM
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About the only doubt in my mind for them requiring HDCP 2.2 is that they might require HDCP 2.3 or 3.0 or something to try and lock it down even further. Retinal scanners? RSA Keys? Online authentication? If there's one constant it's that every new video format gets more and more ridiculous WRT to DRM, making every one more and more complicated and less and less likely to work seamlessly.
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post #473 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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About the only doubt in my mind for them requiring HDCP 2.2 is that they might require HDCP 2.3 or 3.0 or something to try and lock it down even further. Retinal scanners? RSA Keys? Online authentication? If there's one constant it's that every new video format gets more and more ridiculous WRT to DRM, making every one more and more complicated and less and less likely to work seamlessly.

HDCP 2.2 final std. came out in early 2013 with a errata issued in May 2013 while the previous version 2.0 came out in 2008. I have seen no indication that there is any active on-going work on a version beyond 2.2 and it may be a few more years before the next generation of HDCP comes out. For Blu-ray 4K it is highly likely that HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 will be the required configuration.

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post #474 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 05:36 PM
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HDCP 2.2 final std. came out in early 2013 with a errata issued in May 2013 while the previous version 2.0 came out in 2008. I have seen no indication that there is any active on-going work on a version beyond 2.2 and it may be a few more years before the next generation of HDCP comes out. For Blu-ray 4K it is highly likely that HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 will be the required configuration.

From some talk at CES it looks like HDMI standards will need to get bumped up again since 2.0 came out before the standards were even ratified. They're now talking about higher frame rates and greater bit depth, etc. than before... plus the inclusion of object based audio.

I have a hunch it might be wise to hold off on a new receiver until we know for sure the UHD standards, even if some people delay the purchase of a new UHD TV for a little while until the prices stabilize.

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post #475 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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From some talk at CES it looks like HDMI standards will need to get bumped up again since 2.0 came out before the standards were even ratified. They're now talking about higher frame rates and greater bit depth, etc. than before... plus the inclusion of object based audio.

I have a hunch it might be wise to hold off on a new receiver until we know for sure the UHD standards, even if some people delay the purchase of a new UHD TV for a little while until the prices stabilize.

Doesn't seem likely that the BD 4K standard will require anything beyond HDMI 2.0, in fact it may not even use all that HDMI has to offer. Sure some gamers would like to see UHD TVs become the ultimate gaming monitors for use with ultra high end gaming PCs, but that doesn't seem to be the main role for HDMI nor for these UHD TVs.

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post #476 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 07:07 PM
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With the new protocols that will appear in 4KBD, I don't see any need to upgrading an AVR, since it doesn't seem like any of these upgrades will affect the audio. One will thus just need to send the video from the source (4KBD) directly to the 4K display, and the audio (via HDMI) from the source to the AVR (and then to the speakers).
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post #477 of 1062 Old 03-20-2014, 09:40 PM
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With the new protocols that will appear in 4KBD, I don't see any need to upgrading an AVR, since it doesn't seem like any of these upgrades will affect the audio. One will thus just need to send the video from the source (4KBD) directly to the 4K display, and the audio (via HDMI) from the source to the AVR (and then to the speakers).

Of course you'll want to upgrade your receiver with the addition of object audio. I've heard it and it is (when mixed properly) a lot better than what we have now.

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post #478 of 1062 Old 03-21-2014, 02:29 AM
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Doesn't seem likely that the BD 4K standard will require anything beyond HDMI 2.0, in fact it may not even use all that HDMI has to offer.

I think it's likely that they want to be able to store the new HFR movies from Peter Jackson and James Cameron etc on BD 4K in their full framerate in 3D. For that they need at least 18Gbps (or more, depending on bitdepth and chroma format). Personally, I think there's a good chance they'll at least want to support 4Kp48 4:2:2 10bit 3D. I've not done the math yet, but I don't think that fits into 18Gbps?
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post #479 of 1062 Old 03-21-2014, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I think it's likely that they want to be able to store the new HFR movies from Peter Jackson and James Cameron etc on BD 4K in their full framerate in 3D. For that they need at least 18Gbps (or more, depending on bitdepth and chroma format). Personally, I think there's a good chance they'll at least want to support 4Kp48 4:2:2 10bit 3D. I've not done the math yet, but I don't think that fits into 18Gbps?

I listened to a CEDIA sponsored Webinar yesterday on the subject of HDMI 2.0. The panel members were Steve Venuti, Jeff Park and Michael Heiss. Jeff Park, from the HDMI Licensing LCC (Jeff has provided me with much of the info I have previously posted/published on HDMI 2.0 capabilities), presented a briefing that addressed a few of the technical aspects of HDMI 2.0. One table showed the data rates required for various 4K signal formats.. When using 4:2:2 for 4K @ 60Hz video, regardless of whether 8, 10 or 12-bit depth, the required data rate for the video across the HDMI is 17.82 Gbps and this is because a 12-bit field is always used even if the data video being transferred has a less bit depth. For 2D video the highest fidelity formats supported for 4K at 50 or 60Hz are:

4K @ 60Hz using 4:2:2 and 12-bit depth
4K @ 60Hz using 4:4:4 and 8-bit depth
4K @ 60Hz using 4:2:0 and 16 bit

For full resolution 4K 3D @ 60Hz (Avatar 2) it appears you are limited to 4:2:0 with 8-bit depth. At 48Hz (Hobbit) you may be able to go up to 4:2:0 at 10-bit depth.

Of course in all cases for the much more common 24Hz material, HDMI will support higher fidelity format going all the way up to 4:4:4 at 16-bit depth for 2D video and for 3D @24Hz the options would include (among others) 4:4:4 at 8 bits or 4:2:2 at 12-bits.

If you want a copy of the briefing slides send me a PM with your email address and I will mail you a copy.


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post #480 of 1062 Old 03-21-2014, 06:37 AM
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@Ron,

no need for the slides, your comment makes perfect sense as it is. Thanks for the offer, though.

I do still hope that 4K BD will not limit itself to HDMI 2.0 bandwidth. From my point of view it should be easy enough to allow 4K BD support up to 4Kp60 12bit 4:4:4 3D. It would be relatively easy to downconvert 12bit 4:4:4 to 8bit 4:2:0 in the 4K BD players (less computationally expensive than downconverting 4K to 2K), so there's no real need to limit 4K BD to what HDMI 2.0 can do. But I guess we'll have to wait and see what they'll end up doing...
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