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post #721 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 11:32 AM
 
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So what? It will happen sooner or later and there is content available over different channels. The issue here is not so much how the content gets delivered, its what is the quality of what is delivered. And even without final specs, there is a large learning curve in the production chain. meanwhile I will just enjoy what's here, what's coming, and upscaled 1080p without wobulation or e shifting. JVC will do whatever it does with a new and better machine every year and sooner or later it will come out with a native UHD machine.

My post was just to claim a cigar bet which at this point is a guaranteed return investment without the outlay of any capital.
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post #722 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So what? It will happen sooner or later and there is content available over different channels. The issue here is not so much how the content gets delivered, its what is the quality of what is delivered. And even without final specs, there is a large learning curve in the production chain. meanwhile I will just enjoy what's here, what's coming, and upscaled 1080p without wobulation or e shifting. JVC will do whatever it does with a new and better machine every year and sooner or later it will come out with a native UHD machine.

My post was just to claim a cigar bet which at this point is a guaranteed return investment without the outlay of any capital.

And the title of this thread needs to be changed to likely in 2015. It is totally misleading now to say even possible in 2014.
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post #723 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So what? It will happen sooner or later and there is content available over different channels. The issue here is not so much how the content gets delivered, its what is the quality of what is delivered. And even without final specs, there is a large learning curve in the production chain. meanwhile I will just enjoy what's here, what's coming, and upscaled 1080p without wobulation or e shifting. JVC will do whatever it does with a new and better machine every year and sooner or later it will come out with a native UHD machine.

My post was just to claim a cigar bet which at this point is a guaranteed return investment without the outlay of any capital.

I wasn't trying to poke, just saying that those thinking about a 4K machine may want to consider this for "future proofing". Not saying anything negative about any projectors out there now, just saying that a lot of the preemptive posts about brands being behind the curve are almost laughable given the timeline of the content. Even when we get to CEDIA next year there is still the question over what displays can actually do whatever this next generation format can do (color space, bit depth, gamut) and whether that spec is going to hold for a reasonable amount of time. It never ends.

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post #724 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I wasn't trying to poke, just saying that those thinking about a 4K machine may want to consider this for "future proofing". Not saying anything negative about any projectors out there now, just saying that a lot of the preemptive posts about brands being behind the curve are almost laughable given the timeline of the content. Even when we get to CEDIA next year there is still the question over what displays can actually do whatever this next generation format can do (color space, bit depth, gamut) and whether that spec is going to hold for a reasonable amount of time. It never ends.

Yep, which is why I see maybe doing one more 1080p projector upgrade and then getting a 4k one in perhaps in 2016 or 2017, but that's just me. I just get the feeling this stuff will not be fully hashed out until 2016.

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post #725 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 12:18 PM
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The other 800lb gorilla in the room is that content providers are more excited about the cloud for 4K delivery over a physical format.

If 4K takes off I want a disc format otherwise I just can't get excited about it.

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post #726 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 01:11 PM
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I'm hearing that the content providers are happy about a pre-recorded format, they even want higher specs than the BDA does. So I don't think providers are going to be an issue.

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post #727 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 01:17 PM
 
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Kris. I know you weren't poking.
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post #728 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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That might be a bit too pessimistic. We have one strong pay TV provider here in UK and Germany at least, who might go for Phase 1. Maybe not this year. Maybe 2015, maybe 2016, but I don't think much later than that. Of course it will only be very few channels at the start. Probably sports first because they produce that themselves, anyway, and they already film some sports events in 4K.

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I completely agree with madshi. I don't know precesely what the situation is for US but it is clear that broadcasters ( strating with UK and Germany ) will provide UHDTV ( as DVB specified in phase 1 ) by mid 2015, and for sure by 2016.

For french sattelite offer, CANAL PLUS should start UHDTV1 by 2016.
For TNT, French government announced that transition to UHDTV1 will not be done until 2018.

We already know that final goal for Japanese government is to deploy UHDTV ( 8K ) for 2020 during Olympic Games at Tokyo ( not as experimentation but with real and definitive commercial offer ). that's why they decided to jump over UHDTV1 ( 4K ).

Europeans (Italian, English, French and Germany) never said their goal was to deliver UHDTV2 like Japanese will do.

Regards.

In the USA the FCC with input from the ATSC sets the standards for only the over-the-air terrestrial broadcast services. This is what we generally mean by the term "broadcaster" in the USA. The satellite TV companies are free to do whatever they want as long as they conform to their spectrum license, which does not specify any specific TV resolutions, bit-depth, coding, etc. So if Directv in the USA wants to offer UHD next year, which they probably will, then it's up to them and not some national standards body, to decide what UHD format they will offer in terms of resolution, bit depth, chroma subsampling, etc. Of course for business reasons they will select a UHD format that can be supported by the UHD TVs being offered to customers in the USA.

In Europe does the EBU really set the standards, for such things as specific details for the UHD format, that the private satellite companies must use, or does the EBU only set the standards for the over-the-air terrestrial broadcasters?

.

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post #729 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 02:29 PM
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qfq.jpg

- ITU already set standards ( possible parameters for UHD/UHDTV wich are different to 4K ).
- SMPTE is being specify HDR and HFR standards ( to add 100 and 120/1,001 hz for UHDTV, not for BD application ).
- EBU manage the delivery of European standards coordinating tasks with necessary actors who use the recommendations of the ITU and SMPTE.
- DVB specifies the parameters chosen ( norms ) for UHDTV distribution ( Satellite, IP, Cable, ... )
- DE ( Digitaleurope ) will provide UHD logo for all UHD products sells in europe and they already published minimum spécifications for UHD products to be compliant with the next logo. Maybe a problem or not : UHDTV1 normed by DVB is 10bits color depth only while, for Digitaleurope, 8 bits TV will be compliant with UHD logo.
- Orange Labs ( menber of 4EVER french consortium wich is a EBU Partner ) made all pre-tests for HEVC ( rates comparison, perceived quality, ... ) and furnish recommandations for HEVC parameter sets ( broadbanding and mobile applications ).
- MPEG is making test to compare VP9 and HEVC efficiency.

ebu.jpg

Remark : DVB partners must be compliant with DVB norms to brodcast UHD signals ( it was already the case with Full HD and HD ready ). Major private european brodcasters by satellite as SKY, CANAL PLUS, TF1, BBC, RAI, RTL, RTVE, PROSIEBEN will use DVB parameters for UHD broadcasting as shown above.

In France, the over-the-air terrestrial broadcasters are usually not DVB menbers and they depend on government decisions ( government channels or private channels choosen by government ). I guess French government will follow EBU and DVB norms ...
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post #730 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So what? It will happen sooner or later and there is content available over different channels. The issue here is not so much how the content gets delivered, its what is the quality of what is delivered. And even without final specs, there is a large learning curve in the production chain. meanwhile I will just enjoy what's here, what's coming, and upscaled 1080p without wobulation or e shifting. JVC will do whatever it does with a new and better machine every year and sooner or later it will come out with a native UHD machine.

My post was just to claim a cigar bet which at this point is a guaranteed return investment without the outlay of any capital.

I'll concede on the 31st of December at midnight, not a minute before.

Not saying it has much of a chance to happen, but in effect the hardware is already out in the PS4. We only need the specs and a f/w update, as well as just one bluray 4K by the end of the year for the title of this thread to remain valid. It was valid when it was started and I don't see any reason to change it yet.

On the first of january 2015, I'll send you you cigars (likely) and Ron can update the thread title.

Again, the odds were against me when I took the bet. I don't see any reason to concede early, otherwise I wouldn not have taken the bet in the first place smile.gif
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post #731 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 04:10 PM
 
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You would have a better chance on THEM moving the Brooklyn Bridge to the Bronx.
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post #732 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 04:31 PM
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Ha ha I have had Blu ray 4K UHD disc's for years now biggrin.gif Albeit from 4K Camera footage burnt onto 100GB BDXL disc's cool.gif Does that count wink.gif
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post #733 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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OK guys - I changed the title of this thread.

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post #734 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 05:26 PM
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Netflix has begun streaming 4k already. Also my Galaxy Note 3 can record 4k videos.
Still, I decided to make one more 1080p upgrade to the Sony 55.
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post #735 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 05:48 PM
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OK guys - I changed the title of this thread.

Why? It's not even 4Q 2014! It doesn't make sense.
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post #736 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 05:57 PM
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And the title of this thread needs to be changed to likely in 2015. It is totally misleading now to say even possible in 2014.

Why would it be misleading? The 100GB replication is there, BDXL players are every where & its been tested & proven for years. HDMI 2.0 UHDTV's & projectors are on the market & many more has I type this are being released. HEVC version 2 will be done soon. Many 4K transers of movies are already done. As soon as the BDA announces the first 4KBD spec everything else is ready to go, etc.
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post #737 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 05:59 PM
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Quite OT - Just thought I should mention it.................. wink.gif

RedRay player in stock now for immediate delivery for $1250.
Red got fed up of waiting for content - so you have to source your own content.

Some people are suggesting to band together to set up a link page/forum section for people that have 4K content they want to share for free - might be some eye candy short reels by'n by.
Red will also make some of their Red reels and other short projects available to download for the player.

Might be interesting for some to have an alternative to 4K playback from their PC.

As for HEVC - it is ready enough that Red streamed live 4K from Red cameras with their new broadcast camera module directly to video mixer and HEVC encoding on the fly at NAB.

There is really a lot of eye candy content that should be possible to be available for free - just looking at the Shot on Red section on Reduser - much eye-candy commercial - just for somebody to encode it for Redray and put up a download link.

Such things like this Martell commercial would be nice to get in 4K for free - shot on Dragon. cool.gif
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post #738 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 06:14 PM
 
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I got an email from Red saying if I didn't cancel my Redray order by COB Thursday! they would ship me the Redray I ordered over a year ago. I had already cancelled it but I cancelled it again.
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post #739 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 06:33 PM
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So, will the Red Ray Player be outdated hdmi 2.0 and all the blu ray specs are finalized?
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post #740 of 2540 Old 04-09-2014, 06:38 PM
 
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The Red email said no further software etc upgrades or revisions to it were not likely and to carefully evaluate the now final specs before not cancelling ones order. Its HDMI 1.4 and Redray has nothing to do with Bluray or potenrtial 4K Bluray.
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post #741 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You would have a better chance on THEM moving the Brooklyn Bridge to the Bronx.

I have a bet on that too! smile.gif
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post #742 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 09:50 AM
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Ha ha I have had Blu ray 4K UHD disc's for years now biggrin.gif Albeit from 4K Camera footage burnt onto 100GB BDXL disc's cool.gif Does that count wink.gif

Nope, that doesn't count. It has to be official bluray 4K content as per upcoming specs running on a bluray 4K player, so redray doesn't count either.
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post #743 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

OK guys - I changed the title of this thread.

Sorry to see you caved in to rumours smile.gif.

Saying coming 2015 more misleading than 2014 (likely) IMHO as we have no guarantee it will make it in 2015, given the speed they are going at. It could be 2016, or never.
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post #744 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Toknow****a View Post

The other 800lb gorilla in the room is that content providers are more excited about the cloud for 4K delivery over a physical format.

If 4K takes off I want a disc format otherwise I just can't get excited about it.

This is what content providers might want, but market realities may dictate a physical format for some time.

I think the vast majority of people truly interested in 4K films would prefer a disc format as they want optimal PQ, but that is just my speculation.

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post #745 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 10:26 AM
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I would prefer physical too. But all the hype right now is around streaming solutions.

If they take away our ability to buy titles on a disc format then I'm done spending any money on purchasing films outright. I don't think the studios are going to play nice with consumers in the long run in the cloud.

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post #746 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 10:31 AM
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Making money in CE is very difficult right now. Most companies are losing money. You have a bunch of companies making and delivering 4K TVs in 2014 and you bet they want to sell them. Without a way to view 4K content, it will be a tough sell. My guess is the CEOs of the big players get together and tell the science nerds to make it work. Preferably by this Christmas season. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 4K Blu-ray player by Christmas. All the pieces are in place, they just need to agree on how to put everything together. Joe consumer won't care if it's 4:2:2 or not. They just want to see 4K content on their new 4K TV.
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post #747 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Toknow****a View Post

I would prefer physical too. But all the hype right now is around streaming solutions.

If they take away our ability to buy titles on a disc format then I'm done spending any money on purchasing films outright. I don't think the studios are going to play nice with consumers in the long run in the cloud.

But that is what a lot of it is - hype. Different from reality.

Let's not forget Blu-ray was supposed to be dead by now - or so they told us back in 2006.

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post #748 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 10:58 AM
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I know, but the reality is Wall Street has a love affair with streaming solutions companies and their counterparts.

BB and Walmart have shrunk their retail space for disc. 3D although I'm a fan was an utter failure. Did they really think that market exclusives and $40 discs were going to sell?

The real reality is that the vast majority of content out there is throwaway or IOW watch once and forget. This is coming from someone that owns close 600 BDs.

I just can't get excited about purchasing most of those titles on another format.

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A lot of titles on Blu-ray will never be upgraded to 4K in my opinion and are truly the best they will ever look (all the more importance to hold onto them or have them backed up). A lot of DVD titles never made it to Blu and will likely not. (I recently rented "The Ref" with Dennis Leary and Kevin Spacey on DVD as it's not even available on Blu).

I think 4K will be mostly for newer titles and blockbuster/classic catalogs.

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post #750 of 2540 Old 04-10-2014, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img eL View Post

Why? It's not even 4Q 2014! It doesn't make sense.

Below is the link to the video of Sony's briefing on the evolution of Blu-ray at this week's NAB show where the Sony presenter says that "unofficially" Blu-ray 4K will be rolling out for the holiday season 2015.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/channels-sony_creative_software/video-bluray_disc_evolution/

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