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post #811 of 1244 Old 04-11-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Those links are talking about 10-bit encoding not requiring a higher bit rate than 8-bit encoding.

No, they're not saying "not requiring a higher bit rate", they are actually saying with 10-bit encoding you need less bitrate than with 8-bit encoding. They also talk about 12bit and 14bit encoding, and about 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 encoding. Ron, no offense, but did you really read those PDFs? I get the impression you didn't, at least not thouroughly, because your whole argumentation is still based on the opposite of what those PDFs say.

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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

My issues is with the statement that "encoding in 16bit 4:4:4 doesn't seem to need (much) more bitrate than encoding 8bit 4:2:0". I agree there have been published analysis that indicate that you will have higher encoding efficiency for 16-bit 4:4:4 as compared to 8-bit 4:2:0, but I have not seen any real studies that indicates that the necessary bit rate for 16-bit 4:4:4 will be equal, or nearly equal, to that required for 8-bit 4:2:0 at the same quality (freedom from motion artifacts, etc.). 4:4:4 chroma subsampling has twice the vertical and twice the horizontal color info, or (2 x 2) 4 times the color information of 4:2:0 and 16-bit has twice the bit depth of 8-bit. Thus for the raw video the data is (4 x 2) 8 times as much for 16-bit 4:4:4 as compared to 8-bit 4:2:0 and I doubt that the improved HEVC encoding efficiency with 16-bit 4:4:4 will be enough to make up for that factor of 8 for the raw video data rates.

HEVC's got nothing to do with this. The PDFs are talking about h264.

Please repeat with me, maybe that helps: Increasing the h264 encoding bit depth saves space. This is a fact. And that means that your whole raw data math is totally misleading.

(And btw, your math is incorrect. With 4:4:4 the chroma resolution is higher, but the luma resolution is not. 4:2:0 8bit has 12bits per pixel. 4:4:4 16bit has 48bits per pixel. So with 4:4:4 16bit the raw data size is 4x as large as with 4:2:0 8bit. It's not 8x as large.)
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post #812 of 1244 Old 04-11-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

No, they're not saying "not requiring a higher bit rate", they are actually saying with 10-bit encoding you need less bitrate than with 8-bit encoding. They also talk about 12bit and 14bit encoding, and about 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 encoding. Ron, no offense, but did you really read those PDFs? I get the impression you didn't, at least not thoroughly, because your whole argumentation is still based on the opposite of what those PDFs say.
How do we know their tests using their real time silicon encoder is representative of something like x264? How do we know it's as optimized as possible for each bit depth? They tested with interlaced video, does progressive video show the same results?

Have you tried this test with x264 8-bit and x264 10-bit on 1080p footage and duplicated their results?
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Please repeat with me, maybe that helps: Increasing the h264 encoding bit depth saves space. This is a fact.
I think you mean, In some cases increasing the h264 encoding bit depth saves space.
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post #813 of 1244 Old 04-11-2014, 08:45 PM
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This is getting to be like a thesis defense in front of a review board or whatever its called.

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post #814 of 1244 Old 04-11-2014, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

No, they're not saying "not requiring a higher bit rate", they are actually saying with 10-bit encoding you need less bitrate than with 8-bit encoding. They also talk about 12bit and 14bit encoding, and about 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 encoding. Ron, no offense, but did you really read those PDFs? I get the impression you didn't, at least not thouroughly, because your whole argumentation is still based on the opposite of what those PDFs say.
HEVC's got nothing to do with this. The PDFs are talking about h264.

.....

I have read the articles and I felt their analysis was too limited in its scope to really answer the questions at hand for Blu-ray 4K. The paper at the following link provided much more details than the other article:
http://ateme.com/Why-4-2-2-10-bit-video-compression

Some points are:

  • They are only considering h.264 AVC and not h.265 HEVC and since this thread is about Blu-ray 4K the subject of our discussion should be h.265 HEVC and not h.264
  • For the core of their analysis there is an underlying assumption the source video is using 4:2:2 with 10 bit depth
  • PSRN while one commonly used metric, is generally not accepted as the sole metric. Its my understanding that for past efforts of the ATSC and the BDA, visual ratings of transparency by trained experts was deemed essential. Also suitable test video material needs to be carefully selected to include video with high levels of fast motion as well as other difficult to encode sequences, such as moving water and sequences with lots of visible film grain. The article does mention encoding video with visible noise, but little is known about the video material they used for their evaluations and how this would compare to what the BDA may use for their evaluations.

The focus of the analysis in the referenced article was on the benefits of 10-bit 4:2:2 with h.264/AVC over either 8-bit 4:2:0 h.264 or MPEG 2 coding, while my original comment was on the comparison of the data rate required for using 4:4:4 at 16-bit with HEVC as compared to 4:2:0 at 8-bit using HEVC when the compression rate is adjusted to achieve an equivalent level of transparency (and not just by a PSRN metric). I feel that you are making a leap from the analysis in those referenced articles to draw specific conclusions as to what the results may turn out to be for using HEVC (or perhaps VP9) for Blu-ray 4K. I'm not saying that the higher fidelity formats will require a substantially higher bit rate, but the work to determine this has not yet be completed. We can speculate all we want to, but why don't we just wait and see what the BDA concludes.

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post #815 of 1244 Old 04-11-2014, 10:40 PM
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I just watched the Scott Wilkinson HT Geeks show summarizing the NAB show. They talked about the economic jockeying that was going on in the BDA and, the fact that there was no deadline unlike the Government imposing a deadline for broadcast HD, to force a decision. I reinterate that there is a better chance of freezing Lake Michigan solid in July than 4K bluray making it to market before 2015 and even in 2015 is optimistic.

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post #816 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

How do we know their tests using their real time silicon encoder is representative of something like x264? How do we know it's as optimized as possible for each bit depth? They tested with interlaced video, does progressive video show the same results?

Have you tried this test with x264 8-bit and x264 10-bit on 1080p footage and duplicated their results?

Do a google search for "x264 10bit vs 8bit" and read the first 10 links. Every single one of them explains how in real life x264 produces noticeably improved quality at 10bit compared to 8bit - at a noticeably smaller file size. Here's just one comment out of many many many from the first 10 google hits:

> The main thing that 10-bit helps with is specifically banding. Considering
> that it's also the most common artefact in anime encodes, it's a pretty huge
> thing. For some examples, you could check this 10-bit Steins;Gate NCED
> that Commie released and compare it to the 8-bit version. The 10-bit version
> is ~42% smaller and looks a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Some points are:
  • They are only considering h.264 AVC and not h.265 HEVC and since this thread is about Blu-ray 4K the subject of our discussion should be h.265 HEVC and not h.264
  • For the core of their analysis there is an underlying assumption the source video is using 4:2:2 with 10 bit depth
  • PSRN while one commonly used metric, is generally not accepted as the sole metric. Its my understanding that for past efforts of the ATSC and the BDA, visual ratings of transparency by trained experts was deemed essential. Also suitable test video material needs to be carefully selected to include video with high levels of fast motion as well as other difficult to encode sequences, such as moving water and sequences with lots of visible film grain. The article does mention encoding video with visible noise, but little is known about the video material they used for their evaluations and how this would compare to what the BDA may use for their evaluations.

I'm reading a lot of forums about video encoding/processing, and from what I remember, pretty much everyone doing actual compression work reports that encoding h264 at 10bit saves space (at the same or better transparency level) compared to encoding at 8bit. That refutes points 2 and 3 of your list. I've also read comments from compression experts involved with other codecs than h264 that encoding at 10bit is more efficient than encoding at 8bit. So I believe this is independent of the codec, as long as we're talking about lossy compression. E.g. read this link which confirms that also with HEVC, 10bit encoding produces better looking results at the same bitrate as an 8bit encoding of the same source:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/118667-next-gen-hd-video-draft-is-proof-we-need-to-fix-the-system-before-it-falls-apart

> If you’re interested in comparing the difference at 1500Kbps, here’s the
> 8-bit and 10-bit version of the same shot as above. There are far fewer
> visual artifacts visible in the 10-bit image, despite the fact that both are
> encoded at the same bitrate.

I've also found similar comments about VP9.
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post #817 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

With 4:4:4 the chroma resolution is higher, but the luma resolution is not. 4:2:0 8bit has 12bits per pixel. 4:4:4 16bit has 48bits per pixel. So with 4:4:4 16bit the raw data size is 4x as large as with 4:2:0 8bit. It's not 8x as large.

Correct :

UHD in 4:4:4 / 16bits / 24hz ( raw size )
=((3840*2160*48bits)*24hz)/8000000 = 1194MB/s

UHD in 4:2:0 / 8bits / 24hz ( raw size )
=(((3840*2160*8bits)+(1920*1080)*16bits)*24hz)/8000000 = 298MB/s

4 times rate difference.
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post #818 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I just watched the scott Wilkinson HT Geeks show summarizing the NAB show. The talked about the economic jockeying that was going on in the BDA and , the fact that there was no deadline unlike the Government imposing a deadline for broadcast HD I reinterate that there is a better chance of freezing Lake Michigan solid in July than 4K blury making it to market before 2015 and even 32015 is optimistic.

 

Mark, I agree 100% with your post and I'm not holding my breath for 4K BD.  But, maybe you want to use a different analogy.

 

As of yesterday, Friday, Lake Michigan still has something like 23% ice coverage.  The prediction here is the water temperature in Lake Michigan will be no more than 65° by June.  That's almost as close to freezing as it is to swimming temperature.  :)

 

 

 

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post #819 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Ron, thanks for adding the question mark to the title thread smile.gif

You have made I think a small typo towards the end of your last post "(or perhaps VP1)", you mean either VC1 or VP9, from the context I assume you meant VP9. Not quoting you so I can delete this post when you correct it.

Mark, I agree even 32015 is optimistic. I think Blury 4K is more likely to land in 32020. But let's stay on topic, this thread is about Bluray 4K smile.gif

Correct, it should have been VP9.

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post #820 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Ron, thanks for adding the question mark to the title thread smile.gif

You have made I think a small typo towards the end of your last post "(or perhaps VP1)", you mean either VC1 or VP9, from the context I assume you meant VP9. Not quoting you so I can delete this post when you correct it.

Mark, I agree even 32015 is optimistic. I think Blury 4K is more likely to land in 32020. But let's stay on topic, this thread is about Bluray 4K smile.gif

Manni. I had a typo too. I did not mean 32015 of course, but 2015.

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post #821 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Manni. I had a typo too. I did not mean 32015 of course, but 2015.

I know, that's why I made a joke about it and the other typo (blury vs bluray) but you missed it smile.gif.
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post #822 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 08:59 AM
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Yes. I missed it.

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post #823 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I just watched the Scott Wilkinson HT Geeks show summarizing the NAB show. They talked about the economic jockeying that was going on in the BDA and, the fact that there was no deadline unlike the Government imposing a deadline for broadcast HD, to force a decision. I reinterate that there is a better chance of freezing Lake Michigan solid in July than 4K bluray making it to market before 2015 and even in 2015 is optimistic.

It is supposed to be an ElNinio year so you never no biggrin.gif
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post #824 of 1244 Old 04-12-2014, 11:29 PM
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For people confused about the 8-10 bit thing, here's an audio example.

I resampled a 44.1kHz file to 8k and 24k. Filesize is the same. Think of the first as 8-bit and the second as 10-bit. For the same size, a difference in quality.

8: https://mega.co.nz/#!XBR3EZRB!J_H5BTddD2R-dWEC4NS2MWkEOQBkh95hC5T60uiBepg

24: https://mega.co.nz/#!nZplhbZZ!3z22G83cWWdR8brJurzt7q3a6QBJ147GF0P0-Dl1liA
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post #825 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 04:06 PM
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The problem with 4K disc is that not everyone has even abandoned DVD at this point.

The market can support 2 formats but 4K is going to fail if it's competing with DVD and Blu-ray.

Let Blu-ray become the standard and after DVD is phased out then bring 4K to market.

All 4K is going to do is cause confusion in the market at this point. Especially if it's named with a Blu-ray branding moniker.

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post #826 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

The problem with 4K disc is that not everyone has even abandoned DVD at this point.

The market can support 2 formats but 4K is going to fail if it's competing with DVD and Blu-ray.

Let Blu-ray become the standard and after DVD is phased out then bring 4K to market.

All 4K is going to do is cause confusion in the market at this point. Especially if it's named with a Blu-ray branding moniker.

As with Blu-ray 3D, it's almost certain that Blu-ray 4K discs will come with a standard 1080p Blu-ray version as well.

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post #827 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

As with Blu-ray 3D, it's almost certain that Blu-ray 4K discs will come with a standard 1080p Blu-ray version as well.

The difference there is that the 3D encode has the 2D encode ( usually the left eye) on the disc not because it's some type of bonus content but because it's needed to present the film in 3D. Given the size of a 2D bluray is 25-30GB I doubt they'll have enough room on the same disc to include it. It would have to be on a separate disc included with the 4K version.

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post #828 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 05:36 PM
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The difference there is that the 3D encode has the 2D encode ( usually the left eye) on the disc not because it's some type of bonus content but because it's needed to present the film in 3D. Given the size of a 2D bluray is 25-30GB I doubt they'll have enough room on the same disc to include it. It would have to be on a separate disc included with the 4K version.

I'm sure he wasn't talking about them being on the same disc.
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post #829 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The difference there is that the 3D encode has the 2D encode ( usually the left eye) on the disc not because it's some type of bonus content but because it's needed to present the film in 3D. Given the size of a 2D bluray is 25-30GB I doubt they'll have enough room on the same disc to include it. It would have to be on a separate disc included with the 4K version.

I don't think there would be a 1080p Blu-ray included with the 4k version. With 3D they sometimes optimize the video for that format (usually they bump up the brightness to compensate for light loss due to the glasses) and so you need the 2D version optimized for 2D. If you're going to pay the extra premium for a 4k disc (and I'm sure there will be one since, like 3D, they want it to fail wink.gif ), they're going to imagine you can shell out for a new 4k player... even if it has to down-sample to 1080p.

But I do agree that DVD must be phased out and quickly.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #830 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think there would be a 1080p Blu-ray included with the 4k version. With 3D they sometimes optimize the video for that format (usually they bump up the brightness to compensate for light loss due to the glasses) and so you need the 2D version optimized for 2D. If you're going to pay the extra premium for a 4k disc (and I'm sure there will be one since, like 3D, they want it to fail wink.gif ), they're going to imagine you can shell out for a new 4k player... even if it has to down-sample to 1080p.

But I do agree that DVD must be phased out and quickly.

Most 3D movies on Blu-ray are providing the 2D version on a separate disc, rather than on the same disc as the 3D version. I suspect the movie studios will go the same route for their 4K UHD releases by providing the 1080p version of the movie on a 2nd disc in the package. .I fact many of the Blu-ray 3D movies I have purchased over the past year come with either 3 or 4 discs in the package: Blu-ray 3D, regular Blu-ray, DVD, and digital copy.

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post #831 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 07:16 PM
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What movies have a 2D blu-ray version offered on a separate disc included with the 3D disc? The way a 3D Blu-ray is setup is that there are two M2TS files. The left eye is the "2D" version with audio muxed in and the second, much smaller M2TS file, is the right eye information which is just video information, no audio. To play the 2D version the player simply plays the main, left eye, M2TS file. I believe any separate discs included have things like the ultraviolet version, featurettes, interviews ect.

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post #832 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I don't think there would be a 1080p Blu-ray included with the 4k version. With 3D they sometimes optimize the video for that format (usually they bump up the brightness to compensate for light loss due to the glasses) and so you need the 2D version optimized for 2D. If you're going to pay the extra premium for a 4k disc (and I'm sure there will be one since, like 3D, they want it to fail wink.gif ), they're going to imagine you can shell out for a new 4k player... even if it has to down-sample to 1080p.

But I do agree that DVD must be phased out and quickly.

Yes, this is sometimes true that the 3D bluray has a different encode but more often than not, this isn't the case. In recent memory they did this with Gravity but there aren't a whole lot of blu-rays changed for the 3D version. Either way, you can always play a 2D version of the film, even if the encode is different than the separate standalone 2D blu-ray, off a the 3D blu-ray disc simply because there are separate M2TS files for each eye. This is why there is an option to watch the movie in 2D in the main menu of all 3D blu-rays.

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post #833 of 1244 Old 04-14-2014, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

What movies have a 2D blu-ray version offered on a separate disc included with the 3D disc? The way a 3D Blu-ray is setup is that there are two M2TS files. The left eye is the "2D" version with audio muxed in and the second, much smaller M2TS file, is the right eye information which is just video information, no audio. To play the 2D version the player simply plays the main, left eye, M2TS file. I believe any separate discs included have things like the ultraviolet version, featurettes, interviews ect.

Rest assured Seegs Ron is correct ;Ive got about 50 3d blurays and the vast majority have a separate 2d bd even the lesser titles like Immortals or The Three Musketeers smile.gif . A few early ones didnt like piranha 3d but many also are combos with ultraviolet copies and dvd versions thrown in too as mentioned ..
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post #834 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yes, this is sometimes true that the 3D bluray has a different encode but more often than not, this isn't the case. In recent memory they did this with Gravity but there aren't a whole lot of blu-rays changed for the 3D version. Either way, you can always play a 2D version of the film, even if the encode is different than the separate standalone 2D blu-ray, off a the 3D blu-ray disc simply because there are separate M2TS files for each eye. This is why there is an option to watch the movie in 2D in the main menu of all 3D blu-rays.

On some 3D movies there is an option to watch the 2D version (left eye) of the movie, but this option doesn't exist on many 3D movies, distributed as Ron said with at least 2 discs (one 3D bluray, one 2D bluray). This is especially the case for animation, where the movie is significantly different in 2D and in 3D, primarily because the depth of field used in many shots is different, and also because the resolution of the left eye picture on the 3D disc is lower (missing pixels) than on the 2D version, so it frequently doesn't fill the whole screen. In 2D, they use a shallower depth of field to isolate the subject from the background, while in well made 3D the depth of field is much deeper to achieve better results. For example, all Disney movies come with a separate disc for the 3D version which doesn't have any option to play the 2D version in the menu. The 2D version comes in a separate, 2D-only disc.

[Edit: for those interested in the subject, here is a great article byRobert Neuman, the stereoscopic supervisor of Disney's Bolt. Point 5 discusses specifically the use of depth of field, with pictures illustrating the difference between the proper 2D and left eye 3D version of the movie.]

Providing a separate 2D only disc along with a 3D version (even if it has an option to play an inferior version in 2D for compatibility) is in my experience the rule rather than the exception, especially over the last couple of years, particularly if the director cares about picture quality and has made different artistic choices for each version. The recent Titanic 3D edition has the 3D movie over 2 discs to keep the best possible quality, and still offers a separate 2D only bluray. Pacific Rim, Despicable Me, Legends of The Guardians, Dolphin Tale, even documentaries like Closer to the Edge all offer a separate 2D only bluray along with the 3D bluray.

So offering a separate 1080p bluray version of a 4K movie is more than likely (and even a DVD and digital one), so that people can play the movie on the move (in cars, laptops, etc) or on smaller screens with no HDCP 2.2 compatibility. The bluray 4K player could easily downconvert it, the issue is being able to play the movie on non 4K displays with non HDCP 2.2 players for convenience, without having to buy the movie again.
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post #835 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

The problem with 4K disc is that not everyone has even abandoned DVD at this point.

The market can support 2 formats but 4K is going to fail if it's competing with DVD and Blu-ray.

Let Blu-ray become the standard and after DVD is phased out then bring 4K to market.

All 4K is going to do is cause confusion in the market at this point. Especially if it's named with a Blu-ray branding moniker.

Maybe I am wrong, but I envision 4K Blu to end up something like laser disc did. Most certainly larger than that, but certainly not as mainstream as Blu-ray.

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post #836 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

So offering a separate 1080p bluray version of a 4K movie is more than likely (and even a DVD and digital one), so that people can play the movie on the move (in cars, laptops, etc) or on smaller screens with no HDCP 2.2 compatibility. The bluray 4K player could easily downconvert it, the issue is being able to play the movie on non 4K displays with non HDCP 2.2 players for convenience, without having to buy the movie again.

That's actually what I was talking about. I'm saying a 1080p version would most likely be on a separate disc, not on the same disc as the 4K transfer. Regarding the 3D Blu-rays; I'm simply saying, based on how they are written to the disc, there is ALWAYS an option for 2D playback. I should specify that more as I'm an avid HTPC user and advocate so this makes my experience on the matter quite different compared to the very linear and directed experience of those who only use blu-ray disc players in that , if you have an HTPC, there are no limitations to playback. This means you can choose to play the left eye M2TS file as a 2D version even if it isn't the same encode as the separate standalone 2D blu-ray. My post had nothing to do with quality or directorial integrity of a 2D transfer but simply a technical caveat of how 3D BDs are written to discs.

What I find strange is that I have probably 4 or 5 dozen 3D BDs and almost all of them have an option in the main menu to choose either a 2D or 3D playback iteration of the film. My experience doesn't match what some are claiming.

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post #837 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

What movies have a 2D blu-ray version offered on a separate disc included with the 3D disc? The way a 3D Blu-ray is setup is that there are two M2TS files. The left eye is the "2D" version with audio muxed in and the second, much smaller M2TS file, is the right eye information which is just video information, no audio. To play the 2D version the player simply plays the main, left eye, M2TS file. I believe any separate discs included have things like the ultraviolet version, featurettes, interviews ect.

Just go the Amazon link below and you will see most of the major movies are listed as having (Blu-ray 2D + Blu-ray), or both the 3D disc and the 2D disc and many also include the DVD (+DVD).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_10?url=search-alias%3Dmovies-tv&field-keywords=blu-ray%203d&sprefix=Blu-ray+3D%2Cmovies-tv%2C219&rh=i%3Amovies-tv%2Ck%3Ablu-ray%203d

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post #838 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Maybe I am wrong, but I envision 4K Blu to end up something like laser disc did. Most certainly larger than that, but certainly not as mainstream as Blu-ray.

If you envision 4K UHD Blu ray to be like LaserDisc then UHD 4K TV sets will be as well & i don't see that happening. All the UHDTV manufacturers what to sell UHDTV's. Very limited Netflix 4K, Sony Hockey Puck 4K, etc. is not going to sell UHDTV's. Right now to really sell UHDTV's that makes since to consumers is to persons who buy 4K camcorders which is not much.
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post #839 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by img eL View Post

If you envision 4K UHD Blu ray to be like LaserDisc then UHD 4K TV sets will be as well & i don't see that happening. All the UHDTV manufacturers what to sell UHDTV's. Very limited Netflix 4K, Sony Hockey Puck 4K, etc. is not going to sell UHDTV's. Right now to really sell UHDTV's that makes since to consumers is to persons who buy 4K camcorders which is not much.

My somewhat comparing it to laser disc is probably not a good one, but I have a hard time envisioning 4K Blu being so widespread. However, hopefully I'm wrong as I want to see it flourish as much as anyone as I am not a fan of downloading/streaming movies.

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post #840 of 1244 Old 04-15-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

My somewhat comparing it to laser disc is probably not a good one, but I have a hard time envisioning 4K Blu being so widespread. However, hopefully I'm wrong as I want to see it flourish as much as anyone as I am not a fan of downloading/streaming movies.

Your logic makes sense imo ; it's analogous to people being happy enough playing dvd's on all those 2k sets out there sadly ; the latest impression from NAB is that 4k bd is at least a year probably more away - that compounds things possibly depending on hdmi standards for present uhdtv's and what the bda settle on I was thinking wink.gif
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