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post #871 of 1149 Old 06-17-2014, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Not to mention...how many years did it take for a lot of high demand titles to finally arrive on Blu? You have to figure 5-7 years AFTER the format arrived in many cases. Same thing happened with DVD. There are so many Blu catalog titles which are using old 1080p transfers - I wonder if many of them will ever be transfer to 4K especially from stingy studios like Universal and Paramount.
Blu-ray arrived in 2006 and by 2009 there were quite a few "high demand titles" available from the major studios.

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post #872 of 1149 Old 06-17-2014, 08:11 PM
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So here's a fun little nugget I just pulled out of wikipedia for some perspective - the first HDTV's went on sale in 1998. Blu-Ray's first hit the market in 2006. You would have figured they would have learned from their mistakes. Guess not.
:P
I'd be interested on a couple of other time line points. For instance, when I bought my first HDTV in 2006, there was already some HD content in prime time on my cable channels .. but the same thing cannot be said for the UHD rollout today. So I had content that I could use to exploit the TV. I also had a Sony HD camcorder so I could capture and play my own HD content (the rationale for the purchase was my daughter's wedding). Even though there might have been BD players in 2006, there weren't any BD writable drives at the time (at least not that I could afford) so I made so with an Japanese AvelPlayer DVD unit which would overspin the platter in order to get the necessary data rate. It was an ok solution but didn't have BD capacity.

So, to draw another parallel, I see announcement of a Sony 'prosumer' 4k camcorder .. and today I saw an announcement for a Panasonic camera which is supposedly capable of 4k video for $900 .. so I guess that's somewhat analogous to my HD experience. But even if we get 4k BD this year, it will likely be many years before writable 4kBD is available .. although maybe that's not even desirable any more. I long ago moved to putting my own HD content on my NAS (instead of writable BD) and just streaming it with a PopcornHour box .. which is similar to the internet/streaming model that seems to be gaining in favor. I presume that's what I'll do with 4k too since my home network is gigabit and already handles 20 Mbps data rates.

I have also relied on the 'analog hole' and a Hauppage HD PVR for years which allowed me to capture any HD content I wanted .. and I'm guessing that this loophole is probably going to close with 4k even if Hauppage upgraded their A/D encoder. Anyone able to comment on that?
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post #873 of 1149 Old 06-17-2014, 08:51 PM
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Blu-ray arrived in 2006 and by 2009 there were quite a few "high demand titles" available from the major studios.
Too much crap was released the first couple of years IMO. Maybe I should have used different words. On the other hand, you did have Warner release some decent stuff on both formats.

I was thinking more of classic and epic titles originally as studios in most cases wait until a larger install/user base has grown before releasing these kind of titles.


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post #874 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 02:03 AM
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I'd be interested on a couple of other time line points. For instance, when I bought my first HDTV in 2006, there was already some HD content in prime time on my cable channels .. but the same thing cannot be said for the UHD rollout today. So I had content that I could use to exploit the TV. I also had a Sony HD camcorder so I could capture and play my own HD content (the rationale for the purchase was my daughter's wedding). Even though there might have been BD players in 2006, there weren't any BD writable drives at the time (at least not that I could afford) so I made so with an Japanese AvelPlayer DVD unit which would overspin the platter in order to get the necessary data rate. It was an ok solution but didn't have BD capacity.

So, to draw another parallel, I see announcement of a Sony 'prosumer' 4k camcorder .. and today I saw an announcement for a Panasonic camera which is supposedly capable of 4k video for $900 .. so I guess that's somewhat analogous to my HD experience. But even if we get 4k BD this year, it will likely be many years before writable 4kBD is available .. although maybe that's not even desirable any more. I long ago moved to putting my own HD content on my NAS (instead of writable BD) and just streaming it with a PopcornHour box .. which is similar to the internet/streaming model that seems to be gaining in favor. I presume that's what I'll do with 4k too since my home network is gigabit and already handles 20 Mbps data rates.

I have also relied on the 'analog hole' and a Hauppage HD PVR for years which allowed me to capture any HD content I wanted .. and I'm guessing that this loophole is probably going to close with 4k even if Hauppage upgraded their A/D encoder. Anyone able to comment on that?
there are already smartphones that can record in 4k, aren't there? not super high qual or whatever but something?
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post #875 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
there are already smartphones that can record in 4k, aren't there? not super high qual or whatever but something?
There are some coming or may be out that have UHD type screens, though so small as to be woefully inadequate for the task. It's a marketing ploy. I don't know anything about built-in cameras with UHD capabilities.

As others have mentioned, a few "consumer grade" hybrid still/video cameras and camcorders have been released that can do Cinema 4k/UHD or just UHD resolutions albeit using Rec. 709 color spacing. One of the least expensive is a bridge zoom lens camera from Panasonic for under $1,000 (it does UHD rez at 30p). Panasonic's interchangeable lens GH4 hybrid camera does 24p (Cinema 4k) and 24p/30p (UHD) for $1,700 (just the body).

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #876 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Too much crap was released the first couple of years IMO. Maybe I should have used different words. On the other hand, you did have Warner release some decent stuff on both formats.

I was thinking more of classic and epic titles originally as studios in most cases wait until a larger install/user base has grown before releasing these kind of titles.


In December of 2009 Electronic House ran a story on the top 50 Blu-ray releases of 2009 that started off by saying:


"It’s safe to say that 2009 has been the year Blu-ray finally gained mainstream momentum."


web link for story: http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...eases_of_2009/


There were quite a few of the big name classic movies released from the studio's catalog on Blu-ray during 2009 as well as most of the new theatrical releases were put out on both DVD and Blu-ray.


If the first batch of Blu-ray 4K/UHD titles are released in late 2015 (we can hope) we may only have a couple hundred titles available by a year later and 2018 will probably be the year that a reasonable variety of UHD disc titles are available. When 1080p Blu-ray was introduced almost all movies were still shot on 35mm film and were thus good candidates for BD with its 1080p. However, today's catalog includes movies shot with 2K video and many more that were edited/distributed in 2K (even when shot with 4K cameras). Bottom line is that only a fraction of the more recent movies would benefit from the increased resolution if release on UHD discs while many of the earlier movies shot on 35mm film might benefit from release on something higher than 1080p. However, even those movies shot on 2K video may benefit from release on the next generation of Blu-ray discs if using 4:2:2, 12-bit depth, and wider CIE gamut, instead of the 4:2:0, 8-bit depth and rec. 709 gamut that is used with all current 1080p blu-ray discs.

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post #877 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
In December of 2009 Electronic House ran a story on the top 50 Blu-ray releases of 2009 that started off by saying:


"It’s safe to say that 2009 has been the year Blu-ray finally gained mainstream momentum."


web link for story: http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...eases_of_2009/


There were quite a few of the big name classic movies released from the studio's catalog on Blu-ray during 2009 as well as most of the new theatrical releases were put out on both DVD and Blu-ray.


If the first batch of Blu-ray 4K/UHD titles are released in late 2015 (we can hope) we may only have a couple hundred titles available by a year later and 2018 will probably be the year that a reasonable variety of UHD disc titles are available. When 1080p Blu-ray was introduced almost all movies were still shot on 35mm film and were thus good candidates for BD with its 1080p. However, today's catalog includes movies shot with 2K video and many more that were edited/distributed in 2K (even when shot with 4K cameras). Bottom line is that only a fraction of the more recent movies would benefit from the increased resolution if release on UHD discs while many of the earlier movies shot on 35mm film might benefit from release on something higher than 1080p. However, even those movies shot on 2K video may benefit from release on the next generation of Blu-ray discs if using 4:2:2, 12-bit depth, and wider CIE gamut, instead of the 4:2:0, 8-bit depth and rec. 709 gamut that is used with all current 1080p blu-ray discs.

I'm guessing that many catalog titles won't ever look better. The more of you that stream and don't buy Blu Rays means just that much less reason ( and less money ) for the studios to spend money re-mastering older titles. So, I guess if and when a UHD / 4K disk format becomes available, I'll have to find room for it in the rack along side the HD DVD player and my Oppo BDP103 !

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post #878 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
In December of 2009 Electronic House ran a story on the top 50 Blu-ray releases of 2009 that started off by saying:


"It’s safe to say that 2009 has been the year Blu-ray finally gained mainstream momentum."


web link for story: http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...eases_of_2009/


There were quite a few of the big name classic movies released from the studio's catalog on Blu-ray during 2009 as well as most of the new theatrical releases were put out on both DVD and Blu-ray.


If the first batch of Blu-ray 4K/UHD titles are released in late 2015 (we can hope) we may only have a couple hundred titles available by a year later and 2018 will probably be the year that a reasonable variety of UHD disc titles are available. When 1080p Blu-ray was introduced almost all movies were still shot on 35mm film and were thus good candidates for BD with its 1080p. However, today's catalog includes movies shot with 2K video and many more that were edited/distributed in 2K (even when shot with 4K cameras). Bottom line is that only a fraction of the more recent movies would benefit from the increased resolution if release on UHD discs while many of the earlier movies shot on 35mm film might benefit from release on something higher than 1080p. However, even those movies shot on 2K video may benefit from release on the next generation of Blu-ray discs if using 4:2:2, 12-bit depth, and wider CIE gamut, instead of the 4:2:0, 8-bit depth and rec. 709 gamut that is used with all current 1080p blu-ray discs.
But we didn't see titles like Lawrence of Arabia, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, classic horror, more Disney classic etc. etc. a slew of others that were restored until after 2009. After 2009 is when more 4K transfers started happening , as well along with more AVC encoding from just about every studio. Sure, there are a few examples especially by Warner in 2007-2009, but most 'grand' titles came after 2009. I would say 2010 - 2012 were the most pronounced years.

No format in history released most of its biggest guns in the first couple of years. It just doesn't happen.

35 mm catalog titles could benefit tremendously in most cases with new 4K scans, but unless deemed a good seller by the studio, unlikely to ever happen. I think a lot of catalog titles on Blu-ray will never get 4K treatment. There's still a number of DVDs that never got released on Blu-ray.


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post #879 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 09:51 AM
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They MUST get rid of the ridiculous Region locking (along with bloated, slow to load Java software and those damned forced previews and FBI warnings no one reads) if they do come out with UHD discs.

Many times classic and catalog films (especially foreign films) that never get released in the U.S. market show up overseas... and then you can't get them unless you spring for a hacked player. Or a title that's limited to 3,000 copies here gets a cheaper wide release in Europe (I'm talking to you, Twilight Time!!).

And they wonder why people turn to less than legal means to get their movies and TV shows...

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #880 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
But we didn't see titles like Lawrence of Arabia, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, classic horror, more Disney classic etc. etc. a slew of others that were restored until after 2009. After 2009 is when more 4K transfers started happening , as well along with more AVC encoding from just about every studio. Sure, there are a few examples especially by Warner in 2007-2009, but most 'grand' titles came after 2009. I would say 2010 - 2012 were the most pronounced years.

No format in history released most of its biggest guns in the first couple of years. It just doesn't happen.

35 mm catalog titles could benefit tremendously in most cases with new 4K scans, but unless deemed a good seller by the studio, unlikely to ever happen. I think a lot of catalog titles on Blu-ray will never get 4K treatment. There's still a number of DVDs that never got released on Blu-ray.
Of course not every classic movie was released on Blu-ray disc by 2009, or even by 2014. But enough new and classic titles had been released by the end of 2009 to encourage many consumers to adopt Blu-ray as the media of choice. During 2009 the US Blu-ray Disc sales grew to $1.1 Billion and the total number of US homes equipped with Blu-ray grew to 8 million (up from only 3 million at the end of 2008) - all data from a Reuters article from Jan. 5, 2010. The original question that I was attempting to answer was how many years did it take for Blu-ray Disc, as a format, to gain real momentum in the market place and it appears to me, and evidently to a number of industry observers at the time, that 2009 is where Blu-ray turned the corner, or about 3 years after it was initially introduced.


Does them mean Blu-ray UHD will take 3 years to gain a foothold in the consumer market? Not really as the situation was substantially different in 2006 for the evolution of consumer HD. We had had HD broadcasts (1080i and 720p) available in major cities around the US for around 5 years and satellite (Directv) 1080i for a couple of years and there was already an installed base of HDTVs (but most limited to 1080i with component video analog inputs). This time for UHD there will be no broadcast alternatives and satellite UHD may arrive in the same timeframe as Blu-ray UHD. Of course we now also have UHD streaming services (of mediocre quality and only available to those with relatively high end broadband service). Blu-ray UHD will most likely require the UHD displays to have HDMI 2.0 inputs with HDCP 2.2 to provide the full resolution video and virtually all of the low priced UHD TVs (e.g., Seiki or TCL) and even many of the major brands sold thru mid-2014 will not be compatible. Some of these factors work toward a faster roll-out of Blu-ray UHD while other factors work against it. I do believe that having Blu-ray UHD available will be one essential element for the CE manufacturers to convince consumers to make the jump to UHD. As with any new format, the first few years for UHD roll-out will go slowly (remember we are already 2 years into the roll out of UHD TVs) and gain momentum over time. I had my first HD capable projector installed in my dedicated home theater in 1992 but had no HD sources for about a decade, so I'm certainly not the typical consumer, nor are most AVS members I suspect.

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post #881 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 10:48 AM
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That's why I continue to buy Blu Rays. I'm guessing it will be 2020. before this all settles out. In the mean time I'll continue to enjoy my Blu Ray library.
I'm buying more than ever myself now too, and I'm very glad I went for the X500 now instead of a 4k Sony for the time being.......
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post #882 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 10:58 AM
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I'm buying more than ever myself now too, and I'm very glad I went for the X500 now instead of a 4k Sony for the time being.......

Just the other day there were all sorts of great movies on Amazon's deals of the day for $ 4.99 each!
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post #883 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 11:38 AM
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Of course not every classic movie was released on Blu-ray disc by 2009, or even by 2014. But enough new and classic titles had been released by the end of 2009 to encourage many consumers to adopt Blu-ray as the media of choice. During 2009 the US Blu-ray Disc sales grew to $1.1 Billion and the total number of US homes equipped with Blu-ray grew to 8 million (up from only 3 million at the end of 2008) - all data from a Reuters article from Jan. 5, 2010. The original question that I was attempting to answer was how many years did it take for Blu-ray Disc, as a format, to gain real momentum in the market place and it appears to me, and evidently to a number of industry observers at the time, that 2009 is where Blu-ray turned the corner, or about 3 years after it was initially introduced.

And I don't disagree with that. I was merely trying to say, don't expect most of the big classic or huge blockbuster catalogs titles like Raiders of the Lost Ark within the first 2-3 years of the format. Yes, there will be a few exceptions, but the majority will not come until after.

And we don't even know for sure if there is going to be a 4K Blu format.

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post #884 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 11:48 AM
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For me, the real "turning point", is not so much when there's a large quantity of movies on a format, or even many really popular catalog titles. The real "interesting" point in a format's lifespan is when it's become standard for new releases to come out on that format. I don't really know when that happened with BD, but I know for 4K, when I can get any new release movie I'm interested in on the format, it will have "arrived".

This will be especially true with 4K because most movies look excellent on BD, so there's going to be very little incentive for me to rebuy them on 4K, especially things like Star Wars which were shot at 2K. At some point I'll be happy to buy a movie in 4K vs BD, but unless their my absolute favorite movies and they have some significant improvement (banding, gamut, etc) a rebuy will be a tough sell.

Especially if I can't load them onto my media server so I can pick them on screen with a remote.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #885 of 1149 Old 06-18-2014, 11:51 AM
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Plus BD consumers have gotten used to low prices. It's going to be a hard up sell for the CE makers and content providers. We saw $35 BD and 3DBD titles languish on shelves for years. 4K is only going to appeal to those that have to have best. For me I am starting to be a hypocrite. BD is good enough for me. Now if 4K becomes cheap at some point then I may change my tune, but I just don't see 4K BD taking off.
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post #886 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 06:13 AM
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Plus BD consumers have gotten used to low prices. It's going to be a hard up sell for the CE makers and content providers. We saw $35 BD and 3DBD titles languish on shelves for years. 4K is only going to appeal to those that have to have best. For me I am starting to be a hypocrite. BD is good enough for me. Now if 4K becomes cheap at some point then I may change my tune, but I just don't see 4K BD taking off.
I feel like we are at a crossroads in our culture where if you want video quality, you're going to have to pay dearly for it.
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post #887 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 06:21 AM
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I feel like we are at a crossroads in our culture where if you want video quality, you're going to have to pay dearly for it.
I'm hoping that we will be able to get quality at all. The storm cloud on the horizon points to convenience supplanting quality not coexisting with it.


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post #888 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 06:34 AM
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I'm hoping that we will be able to get quality at all. The storm cloud on the horizon points to convenience supplanting quality not coexisting with it.


Art

see.... and in most instances I'm fine with that. On my phone? don't care. tablet - fine. Even on a 30 or 40" TV I can deal with "convenience".

But when I want to blast a 10' wide image it better look frigging fantastic or everyone is going to know.
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post #889 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 06:38 AM
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What's even more insulting is that it (whatever it is) will be hyped and marketed as being high in quality. Just like the real thing.

Its sad even today that curved smallish screen (big flat panels) are hyped as being desirable because they are curved. when the only reason they are curved is to obtain adequate production yields.
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post #890 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 07:00 AM
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I'm hoping that we will be able to get quality at all. The storm cloud on the horizon points to convenience supplanting quality not coexisting with it.Art
Art, your theater is very nice great job! What was the cost of the room? Did you do it yourself?
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post #891 of 1149 Old 06-22-2014, 10:56 PM
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The 4K Blu-ray format could be dead in the water

Interesting...

http://www.techradar.com/news/video/...-water-1246497
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post #892 of 1149 Old 06-23-2014, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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This story appears to be another case where the author took Sony's statement about their loss of revenue from their disc manufacturing operations worldwide and then incorrectly jumping to the conclusion that Blu-ray is to blame. Sony's disc manufacturing operation has lost sales primarily from the collapse of the CD market and the declining DVD sales. I don't know what has happened to Sony share of the Blu-ray manufacturing market as other companies have come online to manufacturer the discs for the non-Sony studios, but overall Blu-sales were up 4.2% in 2013 vs. 2012 but DVD sales were down 13.6% over that same period. Total disc sales were down due to the decline in DVD sales. Note for the past several years DVD sales have been in decline while Blu-ray sales were increasing each year. Revenue from disc sales is still about 3 times that from streaming services. However, total disc sales (DVD + Blu-ray) will probably continue to decline over the next several years even if Blu-ray sales continue to show modest growth. People tend to think that Sony is still only company that matters for the future of Blu-ray, but today Sony is no longer the dominate player within the BDA and one reason the Blu-ray UHD standard is taking so long to complete is there are now dozen of companies that are actively involved.
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post #893 of 1149 Old 06-23-2014, 06:54 AM
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I wonder why Manni hasn't been posting in this thread recently?


Flash. My tracker of cell phone locations indicates Manni is out cigar shopping.

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post #894 of 1149 Old 06-23-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I wonder why Manni hasn't been posting in this thread recently?


Flash.y trsacker of cell phone locations indicates Manni is out cigar shopping.

I haven't been posting in any thread really since I left the JVC thread a few months ago. Lost the will to contribute, given the way a few loud members always want to have the last word, so I'm just lurking in a few threads keeping silent. Much less time consuming, less wasted bandwidth and everyone seems happier!


Nothing new really here, we know it's very unlikely I'll win this bet (but we already knew that when I made it). Unfortunately until the 31st of December at midnight you won't get a shipping confirmation for your cubanos .
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post #895 of 1149 Old 06-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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As a great American, I am pleased to set the clock at midnight US eastern standard time rather than the five hours earlier in your country.


And many miss your very cogent and informational posts plus your sense of humor. Don't let the actions of a few prevent the many from enjoying and learning from your posts.

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post #896 of 1149 Old 06-23-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
As a great american, I am pleased to set the clock at midnight US eastern standard time rather than the five hours earlier in your country.
Much appreciated, but as a citizen of the world I believe GMT should be used for a bet of this importance. Only fair to use the reference.
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post #897 of 1149 Old 07-06-2014, 02:25 AM
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Ron, have you followed the very surprising move by most mainstream AVRs manufacturers (Denon/Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha) to support full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth (18Gbs) in their 2014/15 models WITHOUT HDCP 2.2? Onkyo seems to be the only manufacturer to have chosen HDMI 2.0b (10.2 Gb modified 1.4 chipsets) with HDCP 2.2, same as on the Sony 500/600/1100ES. Apparently even for models released at the end of this year it is still not possible to get HDMI 2.0 chipsets with HDCP 2.2, one has to chose between full bandwidth or HDCP 2.2 support. What is this madness???


The explanation given by Pioneer for this move) see Pioneer SC LX88 - 9.2 ch, Dolby Amos, HDMI 2.0) seems quite laughable, but it raises a few questions:


- Does this mean that availability of full HDMI 2.0a chipset with HDCP 2.2 is still limited, and won't happen this/next year either? Apparently the Panasonic UHDTV set that supported HDMI 2.0a this year speed wasn't supporting HDCP 2.2 either. Are such chipsets indeed coming as far as you know, or has something changed in the industry strategy / acceptation of this as the next standard?
- Do you believe that competing manufacturers are trying to deprive Sony of their advantage (Sony is still the only one providing 4K commercial content and HDCP 2.2 protected sources). Is this a move to protect the sales of their devices until Bluray 4K (a global standard, not a Sony exclusive one) is released (if it ever is)?
- Does this side move mean that HDCP 2.2 could be a dead-end as seen as too Sony-centric? And that buying HDCP 2.2 supporting equipment could be a poor way to future-proof our investments?
- Some users are raising backwards compatibility issue of HDCP 2.2 with earlier versions (not established, just fear), meaning possible issues with older equipment non HDCP 2.2 compatible. As users without an HDCP 2.2 AVR (the majority) have to connect HDCP 2.2 sources directly to their HDCP 2.2 display, there are few ways to test for this until HDCP 2.2 AVRs with only HDMI 2.0 in/outs with HDCP 2.2 are released, like the new Onkyos. What is your take on that? Could going for an HDCP 2.2 model (like the Onkyos) cause such issues?


I was honestly baffled when I realised that the latest AVRs from Pioneer had 8 HDMI 2.0 inputs and 3 HDMI 2.0 outputs but no HDCP 2.2. I thought HDCP 2.2 was part of the specs for HDMI 2.0 (which was why for example the Sony 500/600/1100ES could claim HDMI 2.0 support but not the latest JVC range which had exactly the same bandwidth/features limitations but didn't support HDCP 2.2).


I'd be really interested to find out what you (and others with insider knowledge of this suicidal industry) are making of this.

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post #898 of 1149 Old 07-06-2014, 03:47 AM
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It will be interesting to see if Sony comes up on the losing end again. I think some companies are sick and tired of them throwing their weight around. The fact is that Sony is not what it once was. Lets see what Samsung does with this. If enough companies don't support HDCP 2.2 then it will never take off. There have been quite a few UHD sets sold this year and customers will scream if they discover that any new 4K Blu-Ray standard will not be playable on their sets. With Samsung pushing Netflix streaming ability I wonder if 4K Blu-Ray will ever take off. Cinavia is another example of Sony's folly of trying to push their paranoia onto others.

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post #899 of 1149 Old 07-06-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Ron, have you followed the very surprising move by most mainstream AVRs manufacturers (Denon/Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha) to support full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth (18Gbs) in their 2014/15 models WITHOUT HDCP 2.2? Onkyo seems to be the only manufacturer to have chosen HDMI 2.0b (10.2 Gb modified 1.4 chipsets) with HDCP 2.2, same as on the Sony 500/600/1100ES. Apparently even for models released at the end of this year it is still not possible to get HDMI 2.0 chipsets with HDCP 2.2, one has to chose between full bandwidth or HDCP 2.2 support. What is this madness???


The explanation given by Pioneer for this move) see Pioneer SC LX88 - 9.2 ch, Dolby Amos, HDMI 2.0) seems quite laughable, but it raises a few questions:


- Does this mean that availability of full HDMI 2.0a chipset with HDCP 2.2 is still limited, and won't happen this/next year either? Apparently the Panasonic UHDTV set that supported HDMI 2.0a this year speed wasn't supporting HDCP 2.2 either. Are such chipsets indeed coming as far as you know, or has something changed in the industry strategy / acceptation of this as the next standard?
- Do you believe that competing manufacturers are trying to deprive Sony of their advantage (Sony is still the only one providing 4K commercial content and HDCP 2.2 protected sources). Is this a move to protect the sales of their devices until Bluray 4K (a global standard, not a Sony exclusive one) is released (if it ever is)?
- Does this side move mean that HDCP 2.2 could be a dead-end as seen as too Sony-centric? And that buying HDCP 2.2 supporting equipment could be a poor way to future-proof our investments?
- Some users are raising backwards compatibility issue of HDCP 2.2 with earlier versions (not established, just fear), meaning possible issues with older equipment non HDCP 2.2 compatible. As users without an HDCP 2.2 AVR (the majority) have to connect HDCP 2.2 sources directly to their HDCP 2.2 display, there are few ways to test for this until HDCP 2.2 AVRs with only HDMI 2.0 in/outs with HDCP 2.2 are released, like the new Onkyos. What is your take on that? Could going for an HDCP 2.2 model (like the Onkyos) cause such issues?


I was honestly baffled when I realised that the latest AVRs from Pioneer had 8 HDMI 2.0 inputs and 3 HDMI 2.0 outputs but no HDCP 2.2. I thought HDCP 2.2 was part of the specs for HDMI 2.0 (which was why for example the Sony 500/600/1100ES could claim HDMI 2.0 support but not the latest JVC range which had exactly the same bandwidth/features limitations but didn't support HDCP 2.2).


I'd be really interested to find out what you (and others with insider knowledge of this suicidal industry) are making of this.
Enjoyed your post Manni01. I think you've highlighted the variables at this point in time and I believe the only sane, rational arguement for now is that 4K is not ready for prime time. Sure, if you have a 4K display device, you may enjoy some benefit from up-scaling 1080, but little more.

IMHO until additional studios other than Sony get on board, the implication of 4K and HDCP 2.2 will be a crapshoot. CE companies, one again, are pushing product that may or may not fully support what the final implication may become. It seems likely that what ever you may purchase today will most like become a regret a few months from now. Caveat emptor.
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post #900 of 1149 Old 07-06-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Ron, have you followed the very surprising move by most mainstream AVRs manufacturers (Denon/Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha) to support full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth (18Gbs) in their 2014/15 models WITHOUT HDCP 2.2?
What??

That's news to me. Very disappointing. It's really time we got some interface which can be software upgraded to include new features. Ok, higher bandwidth probably can't be achieved by a new firmware, but things like support for a different encryption or new audio/video formats (e.g. support for 4:2:0 transport) etc should be possible to add back in without having to buy a whole new receiver or projector. In the past couple of years we practically had to upgrade to a new receiver every other year, just because the HDMI version got outdated. That's seriously messed up...

/rant off
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