Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 1244 Old 07-07-2014, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
You're missing Samsung... If you want to see movies in 4K from Paramount or 20th Century Fox then you need to buy a Samsung pannel and their proprietary hard drive system.

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs-.../CY-SUC10SH/ZA

ohmigosh you're right and I even have a Samsung Galaxy Note 2 which I absolutely hate.
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post #932 of 1244 Old 07-07-2014, 05:24 PM
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I would agree with you if they had put HDMI 2.0b with HDCP 2.2, which was the established interim solution until now.


With the majority of the AVR industry deciding for HDMI 2.0a without HDCP 2.2, I -respectfully - disagree.


There is nothing to see at Cedia, if the AVR manufacturers make that move for their 2014/2015 models it will be the same shamble with displays as last year. If JVC come up with a 4K display this year, which isn't sure at all, it probably won't have HDCP 2.2 either. Why favour Sony's sale of content for one more year?


The earliest things can come together re 4K / UHD (if they ever will) is Cedia 2015. I agree with Kris that this is the earliest it can happen now.
For AVR's, there is Atmos. I have been anxiously waiting for this new feature. Granted, I wanted it all, (HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and Atmos) but it does not look like that is going to happen. I can't wait until CEDIA gets here so that I can hear what Atmos in the home will be like.

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post #933 of 1244 Old 07-07-2014, 05:57 PM
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Err. This is a video thread, you ought to be sharing your audio excitement in the relevant audio threads. There are many over there who share your excitement. Every year there is something new in audio for HT that redefines the world. I think most here are happy with 5.1 or 7.1. Most 4K guys will wait until the format and accompanying audio formats become more clear. The puck and the brick are 5.1 and so for the 4K streams. Artificial or synthesized processing to feed overhead speakers just doesn't excite me and right now there are no Atmos sources. Basically just another surround sound mode in a continuing saga of I gotta have true, really true, really really true audio to play back everything in a movie that already is artificial or even if real added after the shoot. Voices recorded after the shot in a studeo, canned sound effects, foley artists. I guess if I were rebuilding my theater like you are, I would certainly wire for Atmos whatever it turns out to be That probably means wiring for LCR , 2 front height speakers, 4 overheads (probably arranged to simulate an omni} 2 sides, 2 rears, and a rear center or two. Not all will be used. Plus multiple subs, at least 4. One must be prepared. Atmos is not the last word. In two years there will be the next gotta have. E-shift 5, whoops Atmost 2. Buy a new AVR now, maybe OK if you don't use it at all for video.

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post #934 of 1244 Old 07-07-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
For AVR's, there is Atmos. I have been anxiously waiting for this new feature. Granted, I wanted it all, (HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and Atmos) but it does not look like that is going to happen. I can't wait until CEDIA gets here so that I can hear what Atmos in the home will be like.
Aren't the AVR's that Onkyo announced going to have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2?
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post #935 of 1244 Old 07-07-2014, 06:27 PM
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Aren't the AVR's that Onkyo announced going to have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2?
I think it's supposed to be the limited bandwidth HDMI 2.0 variation.

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post #936 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 02:09 AM
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Yes at the moment it's either Onkyo with HDMI 2.0b and HDCP 2.2 or the others with HDMI 2.0a and NO HDCP 2.2.

Mike, Atmos at the home is pretty well defined. These models can support 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 depending on how much you want to waste on an already obsolete AVR from a video point of view to be able to play no content (as there are no atmos blurays yet).

As far as I understand the four overhead speakers replace the front wide/height speakers.

You can either achieve the height speakers with discrete height speakers or with dolby atmos front/back speakers which fire the heights channels toward the ceiling (and only of the ceiling is not treated).

Onkyo is the only choice to play 4K protected content with Atmos but like this year's Sony projectors, the bandwidth is limited, so only an option if you're ready to buy and throw.

Mark, the channels in Atmos are not artificial processing, they are synthetized from the audio objects defined during the Atmos mixing process. There are many more channels in the theatre version, but for home cinema it's quite exciting.

And Mike knows this is a 4K video thread, he's just trying to keep a few people excited about these new AVRs

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post #937 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 06:33 AM
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ohmigosh you're right and I even have a Samsung Galaxy Note 2 which I absolutely hate.
If you want to see movies from these studeos in 4K lite. And at 4:2:0 and 8 bit and rec 709 which isn't close to what you see in the commercial theaters. Who is kidding who here?

There really are no benefits to 4K sources at this point. I truly believe a really high quality 2K projector feed 2K will give one all the benefits at this point as a similar quality 2K projector. My Sony 1100ES is a very high quality machine. I can't separate the improvements I get from its basic quality vs the fact that it upscales to 4K especially on screens that aren't really big. I know the scaling on the Sony needs help because it rings and the Lumagen 4K no ring scaling is needed to deliver what this machine can do.

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post #938 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
If you want to see movies from these studeos in 4K lite. And at 4:2:0 and 8 bit and rec 709 which isn't close to what you see in the commercial theaters. Who is kidding who here?

There really are no benefits to 4K sources at this point. I truly believe a really high quality 2K projector feed 2K will give one all the benefits at this point as a similar quality 2K projector. My Sony 1100ES is a very high quality machine. I can't separate the improvements I get from its basic quality vs the fact that it upscales to 4K especially on screens that aren't really big. I know the scaling on the Sony needs help because it rings and the Lumagen 4K no ring scaling is needed to deliver what this machine can do.
forget the resolution - what about the color palette? surely that makes a difference.
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post #939 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 07:26 AM
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You ate not reading carefully. Note I listed rec 709 as a deficiency. Clearly, if one wants to replicate what a movie actually is, one needs DCI (PS3) space. That is possible with several consumer machines that have a switched in electro mechanical filter. But you need DCI sources and right now that means buying a theater machine with a packaged or separate server and getting DCI sources. The server is expensive but the sources are legally obtainable and for at lot less than one company is charging. A 2K commercial machine is expensive but nowhere as near expensive as a commercial 4K machine and for screen sizes say up to 12 feet wide, there is really no benefit in going to 4K. 4K has a great benefit for 20 ft wide and bigger screens. Commercial theater size screens. I am not a movie watching person for the most part and my screen is only 8 ft wide. When I move, I will go to a 10 ft wide. If I watched a lot of current movies, I would use my Sony and get a DCI server and buy the content for limited viewing. Not all that expensive.

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post #940 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 07:49 AM
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Apparently the first 4H UHD channels have got a greenlight (no date for start of broadcast though, so we're probably at least 1-2 years away from seeing anything). They would support up to 10 bits color depth (at 50p I assume as it's Europe [edit: apparently it will be up to 60p), so interim HDMI 20.b equipment would have to downsample to 8 bits if that bit depth was actually used in 50p/60p broadcasts. No indication on how compressed this 4K content will be.


Also they use a new HEVC spec which isn't compatible with existing UHDTV sets. I'm sure owners will be glad to hear they have to get an external box...


http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/u...ndard-approval


slightly more detailed article: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dvb-4k-201407043842.htm

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post #941 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes at the moment it's either Onkyo with HDMI 2.0b and HDCP 2.2 or the others with HDMI 2.0a and NO HDCP 2.2.

Mike, Atmos at the home is pretty well defined. These models can support 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 depending on how much you want to waste on an already obsolete AVR from a video point of view to be able to play no content (as there are no atmos blurays yet).

As far as I understand the four overhead speakers replace the front wide/height speakers.

You can either achieve the height speakers with discrete height speakers or with dolby atmos front/back speakers which fire the heights channels toward the ceiling (and only of the ceiling is not treated).

Onkyo is the only choice to play 4K protected content with Atmos but like this year's Sony projectors, the bandwidth is limited, so only an option if you're ready to buy and throw.

Mark, the channels in Atmos are not artificial processing, they are synthetized from the audio objects defined during the Atmos mixing process. There are many more channels in the theatre version, but for home cinema it's quite exciting.

And Mike knows this is a 4K video thread, he's just trying to keep a few people excited about these new AVRs
There will be choices above 7.1.4, but cost more money. I just brought up this, because you said there was nothing to look forward to at CEDIA. This is one thing I am looking forward to and there are always a couple of surprises.

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post #942 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
There will be choices above 7.1.4, but cost more money. I just brought up this, because you said there was nothing to look forward to at CEDIA. This is one thing I am looking forward to and there are always a couple of surprises.
Sure, I meant re the topic of this thread, ie bluray 4K, HDCP 2.2 and the video side of things .


I'm excited by Atmos too, but not to the point of buying an AVR unable to passthrough protected 4K content.


I've had bad experiences in the past with Onkyo (noisy, running hot, and even one that was defective OOTB) but if I'm desperate to upgrade this year one of the new Onkyos - like the TX-NR1030 - will be the only choice for me despite the lower 2.0b bandwidth. As I don't really care about 10 bits at 60p in 4K, it's a better compromise than no HDCP 2.2.
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post #943 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 11:06 AM
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Tough choices for those looking to invest early. At this point I almost wish Atmos held out another year bringing it closer to the launch (fingers crossed) of 4K Blu-ray. That way you don't get in this either or option. Though I don't use AVRs or processors for video switching so as long as my future 4K player has dual outputs like today's players, I should be good. I don't see myself upgrading to Atmos until later down the line. I'm picky about audio processors and I'm not jumping in early just to find out I want something more or better down the line. I want the roadmap fleshed out a bit more to find out what I may or may not want from Atmos or any other audio options coming down the pipe. I've spent too much money as it is being an early adopter only to find out I have to upgrade the next cycle (and the next, and the next.......).
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post #944 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 12:09 PM
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Tough choices for those looking to invest early. At this point I almost wish Atmos held out another year bringing it closer to the launch (fingers crossed) of 4K Blu-ray. That way you don't get in this either or option. Though I don't use AVRs or processors for video switching so as long as my future 4K player has dual outputs like today's players, I should be good. I don't see myself upgrading to Atmos until later down the line. I'm picky about audio processors and I'm not jumping in early just to find out I want something more or better down the line. I want the roadmap fleshed out a bit more to find out what I may or may not want from Atmos or any other audio options coming down the pipe. I've spent too much money as it is being an early adopter only to find out I have to upgrade the next cycle (and the next, and the next.......).
All good points and sound advice . I would stay put for a couple of years if I had an X700/rs57 like you do, but I really have to upgrade at least my projector (X30/rs45) by the beginning of 2015, hopefully for a model with true 4K support.


I'm hoping that the upcoming Radiance Pro - unlikely to arrive before next year - will have proper HDMI 2.0a in/out with HDCP 2.2, which means that it could be used to switch 4K protected video sources (what do you do with the dual output when you have more than one 4K protected source, say the Sony brick and a Bluray 4K player?).


That means I could keep my lowly 3311 for a couple more years until Atmos matures (and DTS competing format is also supported). An alternative would be to get a current mid-range Onkyo like the 636/737/838 just to get Atmos as they should get an Atmos firmware update in September. That way the Radiance Pro would do proper 4K with HDMI 2.2 video switching and the audio would go to the Atmos enabled AVR. The price of the 1030 in the UK is close to extortion (£2000!) so not an option for me.


Of course this is only a possible path if Lumagen manages to find enough of these elusive HDMI 2.0a chipsets with HDCP 2.2 to implement in its 2015 range...


As you said, it's unlikely all this will align until the end of next year at best.


We shall see what display/VP manufacturers (bar Sony) decide to support on their new range at Cedia/Berlin, that will be an indication. If like for the AVR guys there is still no HDCP 2.2 support (irrespective of the speed of the chipsets), it will confirm that the protection standard is already well and truly dead. Last year was just excusable, this year they have the 2.0b + HDCP 2.2 option, so if it's still not there something's definitely fishy...
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post #945 of 1244 Old 07-08-2014, 12:24 PM
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So what happens if an HDCP 2.2 compatible device (VP/Switch) splits to an HDCP 2.2 compatible display and HDCP 2.0 (or whatever is less than 2.2) audio processor? Will it work? Is the HDCP 2.2 chain broken?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Also, I guess at this point none of us know, but I'm curious if when you look at something like the Sony 600ES or 1100ES, do they risk being incompatible with 4k bluray, or simply being limited to the color depth and frame rate/frequency that the 10.2 bandwidth allows. Incompatible is a major issue. Not having the ultimate color depth that the format is capable of is probably of less concern other than when doing A/B tests or looking at screen shots side by side.
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post #947 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 12:38 PM
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manni, i'm a few days late catching up on this thread but thought the comment from the pioneer rep is interesting:

Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4).

Another reason was the lack of HDCP 2.2 source hardware. The only piece I am aware of is the Sony 4K server which also does additional checks to make sure it is connected to a Sony TV in order to work

I was mainly interested in their new sub eq and thought about an update but no way until this all shakes out, hopefully by this time next year.

Where is this unprotected 4:4:4 content going to come from?


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post #948 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 12:48 PM
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manni, i'm a few days late catching up on this thread but thought the comment from the pioneer rep is interesting:

Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4).

Another reason was the lack of HDCP 2.2 source hardware. The only piece I am aware of is the Sony 4K server which also does additional checks to make sure it is connected to a Sony TV in order to work

I was mainly interested in their new sub eq and thought about an update but no way until this all shakes out, hopefully by this time next year.

Where is this unprotected 4:4:4 content going to come from?
Nowhere.

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post #949 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 12:52 PM
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All good points and sound advice . I would stay put for a couple of years if I had an X700/rs57 like you do, but I really have to upgrade at least my projector (X30/rs45) by the beginning of 2015, hopefully for a model with true 4K support.


I'm hoping that the upcoming Radiance Pro - unlikely to arrive before next year - will have proper HDMI 2.0a in/out with HDCP 2.2, which means that it could be used to switch 4K protected video sources (what do you do with the dual output when you have more than one 4K protected source, say the Sony brick and a Bluray 4K player?).


That means I could keep my lowly 3311 for a couple more years until Atmos matures (and DTS competing format is also supported). An alternative would be to get a current mid-range Onkyo like the 636/737/838 just to get Atmos as they should get an Atmos firmware update in September. That way the Radiance Pro would do proper 4K with HDMI 2.2 video switching and the audio would go to the Atmos enabled AVR. The price of the 1030 in the UK is close to extortion (£2000!) so not an option for me.


Of course this is only a possible path if Lumagen manages to find enough of these elusive HDMI 2.0a chipsets with HDCP 2.2 to implement in its 2015 range...


As you said, it's unlikely all this will align until the end of next year at best.


We shall see what display/VP manufacturers (bar Sony) decide to support on their new range at Cedia/Berlin, that will be an indication. If like for the AVR guys there is still no HDCP 2.2 support (irrespective of the speed of the chipsets), it will confirm that the protection standard is already well and truly dead. Last year was just excusable, this year they have the 2.0b + HDCP 2.2 option, so if it's still not there something's definitely fishy...
That all sounds good, but in two years, when you are ready to get matured Atmos, something new will be on the horizon, there always is.

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post #950 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
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manni, i'm a few days late catching up on this thread but thought the comment from the pioneer rep is interesting:

Regarding HDCP 2.2, none of our AVR's support it this year. Pioneer (As well as Denon and Yamaha) opted for full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18gbps) so that we can support 4:4:4 content as well as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut signals which require more that 10.2gbps. There currently is not a single chip solution that offers both 18gbps and HDCP 2.2. Onkyo decided to go with HDCP 2.2 by using a different brand HDMI repeater, however there HDMI 2.0 solution only offers 10.2gbps of bandwidth (Same has HDMI 1.4).

Another reason was the lack of HDCP 2.2 source hardware. The only piece I am aware of is the Sony 4K server which also does additional checks to make sure it is connected to a Sony TV in order to work

I was mainly interested in their new sub eq and thought about an update but no way until this all shakes out, hopefully by this time next year.

Where is this unprotected 4:4:4 content going to come from?



Looks to me that the 4K content that we are waiting for is 4K BD and you will need HDCP 2.2 to play that. Seems to me Onkyo's choice is a better one. Better to be able to play the content and get 95% out of it, than not be able to play it at all.

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post #951 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 01:11 PM
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The Pioneer comments make little sense to me. Maybe it is a numbers game saying they support a bunch if stuff that sounds cool but doesn't even exist (and frankly won't with the HDCP they ommited). Has me completely baffled. I think Onkyo made a far smarter play that will be a safer bet for any near term content if you are using it for switching.
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The Pioneer comments make little sense to me. Maybe it is a numbers game saying they support a bunch if stuff that sounds cool but doesn't even exist (and frankly won't with the HDCP they ommited). Has me completely baffled. I think Onkyo made a far smarter play that will be a safer bet for any near term content if you are using it for switching.
Exactly, a much better compromise. Pioneer's explanation doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Unfortunately the ludicrous price of the Onkyo range in the UK rules these out for now. I might have considered Onkyo if they had been 2.0a, but I'm not ready to put £2000 in a 2.0b AVR which is likely to be limited in 1-2 years. This (outrageous UK prices) is also the reason why I didn't upgrade my X30 to an X700. But this is OT here

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post #953 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 01:41 PM
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Looks to me that the 4K content that we are waiting for is 4K BD and you will need HDCP 2.2 to play that. Seems to me Onkyo's choice is a better one. Better to be able to play the content and get 95% out of it, than not be able to play it at all.
Is the current content going to movie theaters (DCI) mastered at 12 bit 4:4:4?

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post #954 of 1244 Old 07-09-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the current content going to movie theaters (DCI) mastered at 12 bit 4:4:4?

The Digital Cinema Distribution Master (DCDM) format is specified to use a image track in a TIFF file format where (taken directly from the 2012 Digital Cinema System Specification):


16 bits each per X', Y', and Z' channel, stored in the nominal TIFF R, G and B channels.

The DCDM gamma-encoded X', Y' and Z' color channels are represented by 12-bit unsigned integer code values. These 12 bits are placed into the most significant bits of 16-bit words, with the remaining 4 bits filled with zeroes.

The image orientation shall place the first pixel in the upper left corner of the image.

The DCDM picture file shall contain only the active pixels in the image. In other words, it is not allowed to pad the picture to the full size of the DCDM container.
.

Bottom line appears to be it is distributed to theaters as 12-bit RGB video (equivalent to 12-bit 4:4:4). Also the video is compressed, using a wavelet compression scheme, for distribution.


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post #955 of 1244 Old 07-11-2014, 01:11 PM
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If you knew that 8k was going to roll out in 2017, would you invest in 4K now? 4K just offers more pixels. 8K will have more pixels, more color, and more contrast. If the screen size and seating distance are properly planned, one should notice very little difference between 2k and 4k (other than projected 4k images tend to be softer looking). The additional color space and contrast of 8K should be very noticeable.
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post #956 of 1244 Old 07-11-2014, 01:22 PM
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4K Blu-Ray will already come with a wider gamut and higher bitdepth, maybe also with a wider dynamic range. No need to wait for 8K for that. Furthermore, 8K is not going to come anywhere near 2017, at least not on a physical disc. Maybe you're talking about EBU/Japan broadcasting plans? But that's not the topic of this thread. Furthermore I believe that 8K broadcasting is coming when I see it, not before. Creating paper specs for 8K broadcasting is different to actually building a whole 8K recording, processing, broadcasting and playback pipeline.

"Contrast" is a property of the display technology (on/off contrast = measured ratio of white/black), and not a property of the content encoding.
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post #957 of 1244 Old 07-11-2014, 03:04 PM
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"Contrast" is a property of the display technology (on/off contrast = measured ratio of white/black), and not a property of the content encoding.
I wouldn't argue the first part of your statement, but according to the UHD roadmap (ITU-R UHD 2012) -- to which about 200 countries are signatories -- gamma becomes EOTF and the ITU published a spec to a higher standard than is currently in vogue, so contrast will look better if you have the 8k equipment to render it.

As for 4K Blu-ray having wider gamut, that may be true, but 4K TV spec doesn't accommodate it.
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post #958 of 1244 Old 07-11-2014, 03:51 PM
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I wouldn't argue the first part of your statement, but according to the UHD roadmap (ITU-R UHD 2012) -- to which about 200 countries are signatories -- gamma becomes EOTF and the ITU published a spec to a higher standard than is currently in vogue, so contrast will look better if you have the 8k equipment to render it.
Ok, yes. This is commonly refered to as "increased dynamic range" or "increased peak white", though, not "increased contrast". When looking at the source encoding, black is by definition supposed to be perfect black. So if you have a display with a perfect black level (e.g. OLED), DVD, Blu-Ray and broadcast playback should produce infinite contrast today. What UHD plans to improve is the peak white level. Peak white has an affect on contrast, but only if the display's black level isn't black but dark gray. But I guess I'm starting to split hairs here. I think we both mean the same thing.

BTW, from what I've heard we might also get increased dynamic range / peak white for 4K Blu-Ray already. Not sure, though.

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As for 4K Blu-ray having wider gamut, that may be true, but 4K TV spec doesn't accommodate it.
Look here:

UHD Rollout Timetable at NAB 2014

There's UHD-1 phase 1, UHD-1 phase 2 and UHD-2. And UHD-1 phase 2 supports 4K with a wider gamut.
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post #959 of 1244 Old 07-11-2014, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't argue the first part of your statement, but according to the UHD roadmap (ITU-R UHD 2012) -- to which about 200 countries are signatories -- gamma becomes EOTF and the ITU published a spec to a higher standard than is currently in vogue, so contrast will look better if you have the 8k equipment to render it.

As for 4K Blu-ray having wider gamut, that may be true, but 4K TV spec doesn't accommodate it.

It is ITU rec. 2020 that defines the overall technical capabilities for both 4K/UHD and 8K systems and they both have the same gamut spec. Also the available bit depths and ultimately the potential dynamic range are also the same. However, these are recommendations and the actual implementations of 4K and 8K sources and more importantly displays will be limited by the available technologies and how cost effective they are. You can specify a 4K or 8K system (program creation, recording, distribution and display) capable of handling signals with a 1,000,000:1 dynamic range (such as the High Dynamic Range - HDR system proposed by Dolby) but that doesn't mean actual displays will be able to support that number any time soon. While some projectors may claim such a high number for their on/off contrast ratio (e.g., using a dyamic iris), even the best projectors typically have under 1,000:1 ANSI contrast ratio and that is limited by the optics and I don't see that having a radical improvement for the foreseeable future. OLED flat panel displays probably come the closest but the current generation do not offer the peak light output levels proposed by Dolby for HDR.


As for 8K in 2017, that will only be limited broadcasts the appear to be intended as essentially a demonstration or trial. I saw HDTV satellite broadcasts in Japan back in the early 1990's (the MUSE system) and there were several CRT projectors that could handle these (I saw it displayed with a Sony projector). The US ATSC HD system had initial demonstration/trials broadcasts in Charlotte NC and in Washington DC back in the late 1990s. However, that doesn't mean you could run down to a Circuit City or Best Buy back in the 1990s and buy a HDTV as they weren't available until a several years after the first US broadcasts and the first 1080p sources and displays/projectors only come out about 8 years after those initial US broadcasts. When I was back in Japan about a decade after I first saw the HDTV demo, there were several flat panel HDTVs available in the better electronics stores starting at about $10,000 (converted from yen to dollars) for a 42 inch model plasma. So if you have perhaps a decade or two to wait on 8K large screen UHDTVs or projectors that can display the wide gamut defined by ITU plus display high dynamic range as envisioned by companies such as Dolby, then that's about the time frame they may become available at a reasonable price.


I think the roadmaps put out by several different organizations all assume an evolutionary approach where we only get some of the 4K UHD features first followed by some of the more technically challenging features of 4K and that will require the rest of this decade to get into place. For the over the air broadcast industry the transition to any new technology will be very difficult and expensive. It will be comparable to the analog SD transition of digital HD and that took about a decade to complete in the USA. There seems to be some feeling within the broadcast industry and the FCC (and equivalent organizations in other countries and regions) that perhaps that industry segment should so directly from HD (720p and 1080i) to 8K UHD. I have seen some info from the ongoing ATSC efforts in the USA that the target for the first routine UHD broadcasts (i.e., not just trials/demos) sometime after 2020 so perhaps it would be in the mid-2020's before we might have nationwide 8K UHD broadcasts, and that's probably optimistic. Satellite 4K and 8K UHD distribution may come before over the air broadcasts. Directv has talked about possibly offering a few 4K UHD channels starting the end of 2015 but I wouldn't expect to see them offer 8K until after there are at least several hundred thousand 8K UHDTVs in the homes of Americans and that probably after 2020.

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post #960 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 08:36 AM
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It is ITU rec. 2020 that defines the overall technical capabilities for both 4K/UHD and 8K systems and they both have the same gamut spec. Also the available bit depths and ultimately the potential dynamic range are also the same. However, these are recommendations and the actual implementations of 4K and 8K sources and more importantly displays will be limited by the available technologies and how cost effective they are. You can specify a 4K or 8K system (program creation, recording, distribution and display) capable of handling signals with a 1,000,000:1 dynamic range (such as the High Dynamic Range - HDR system proposed by Dolby) but that doesn't mean actual displays will be able to support that number any time soon. While some projectors may claim such a high number for their on/off contrast ratio (e.g., using a dyamic iris), even the best projectors typically have under 1,000:1 ANSI contrast ratio and that is limited by the optics and I don't see that having a radical improvement for the foreseeable future. OLED flat panel displays probably come the closest but the current generation do not offer the peak light output levels proposed by Dolby for HDR.


As for 8K in 2017, that will only be limited broadcasts the appear to be intended as essentially a demonstration or trial. I saw HDTV satellite broadcasts in Japan back in the early 1990's (the MUSE system) and there were several CRT projectors that could handle these (I saw it displayed with a Sony projector). The US ATSC HD system had initial demonstration/trials broadcasts in Charlotte NC and in Washington DC back in the late 1990s. However, that doesn't mean you could run down to a Circuit City or Best Buy back in the 1990s and buy a HDTV as they weren't available until a several years after the first US broadcasts and the first 1080p sources and displays/projectors only come out about 8 years after those initial US broadcasts. When I was back in Japan about a decade after I first saw the HDTV demo, there were several flat panel HDTVs available in the better electronics stores starting at about $10,000 (converted from yen to dollars) for a 42 inch model plasma. So if you have perhaps a decade or two to wait on 8K large screen UHDTVs or projectors that can display the wide gamut defined by ITU plus display high dynamic range as envisioned by companies such as Dolby, then that's about the time frame they may become available at a reasonable price.


I think the roadmaps put out by several different organizations all assume an evolutionary approach where we only get some of the 4K UHD features first followed by some of the more technically challenging features of 4K and that will require the rest of this decade to get into place. For the over the air broadcast industry the transition to any new technology will be very difficult and expensive. It will be comparable to the analog SD transition of digital HD and that took about a decade to complete in the USA. There seems to be some feeling within the broadcast industry and the FCC (and equivalent organizations in other countries and regions) that perhaps that industry segment should so directly from HD (720p and 1080i) to 8K UHD. I have seen some info from the ongoing ATSC efforts in the USA that the target for the first routine UHD broadcasts (i.e., not just trials/demos) sometime after 2020 so perhaps it would be in the mid-2020's before we might have nationwide 8K UHD broadcasts, and that's probably optimistic. Satellite 4K and 8K UHD distribution may come before over the air broadcasts. Directv has talked about possibly offering a few 4K UHD channels starting the end of 2015 but I wouldn't expect to see them offer 8K until after there are at least several hundred thousand 8K UHDTVs in the homes of Americans and that probably after 2020.
Yep, skipping 4K to wait on 8K is going to be a long, long wait. I would expect some of your current equipment will die long before 8K physical media shows up.

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