Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 33 - AVS Forum
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post #961 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 08:46 AM
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Sadly, many of us here will likely die before 8K physical media shows up.

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post #962 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 08:48 AM
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I doubt 8K physical media will ever happen. By that point in time, the infrastructure should be available for any kind of streaming - maybe even time travel.

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post #963 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Sadly, many of us here will likely die before 8K physical media shows up.

Given the pace of the industry, we might all die before 4K physical media shows up
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post #964 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 09:38 AM
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Manni01. Maybe its time to start a new bet on whether we will see 4K Bluray players and media by the end of 2015? Whether we will see an adopted standard by the end of 2014? By the end of 2015?

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post #965 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Manni01. Maybe its time to start a new bet on whether we will see 4K Bluray players and media by the end of 2015? Whether we will see an adopted standard by the end of 2014? By the end of 2015?

No way. I'm shipping your cigars and I'm never betting again about bluray 4K or any 4K related standard. After the last Denon/Pioneer twist, I'm not even sure it will happen anymore, and if it does I'm not sure it will use HDCP 2.2. That's how low my confidence is...


And I'm never betting with you anymore, I've learnt my lesson. I'll just do like everyone else and believe you're always right .
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post #966 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 01:05 PM
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Well, let's speculate on why there is no 4K bluray standard yet.


My guess a large part of the delay is display manufacturers wanting there voting representatives to stall. In theory, a standard might be high bar set with displays not being capable of using it to its fullest. This could result in multiple rounds of 4K bluray sales as the production end keeps reissuing with a wider color space, yada yada. But it would seem that the players would have to meet the bar initially even if the displays can't and surely the production chain can't at this point without substantial reinvestment.

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post #967 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Well, let's speculate on why there is no 4K bluray standard yet.


My guess a large part of the delay is display manufacturers wanting there voting representatives to stall. In theory, a standard might be high bar set with displays not being capable of using it to its fullest. This could result in multiple rounds of 4K bluray sales as the production end keeps reissuing with a wider color space, yada yada. But it would seem that the players would have to meet the bar initially even if the displays can't and surely the production chain can't at this point without substantial reinvestment.
I really don't believe its a stalling tactic. Rather there are a lot of different companies involved in the standards group with each wanting to best protect their company's financial interests (i.e., get their patented technologies used) as well as get the level of performance they believe will be necessary to result in a successful product. Both the movie studios as well as CE manufacturers are represented. Recall a decade ago a smaller set of Studios and CE companies working on developing HD optical media ended up at an impasse and decided to disagree and created two standards (Blu-ray and HD-DVD). At least this time there seems to be an agreement that we need one and not two competing standards. For a couple decades I was involved in creating international standards and in most cases the alternatives we debated were only technical in nature (rather than who might have a financial benefit). And even in these cases it generally took a few years to come to agreement where fairly complex technologies were concerned, especially where lab evaluations of alternative approaches or techniques were required. Bottom line from my experience is if the BD UHD standard is actually completed in 2015 then that's fairly quick considering the working group only got the go ahead to start working on it last year.

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post #968 of 1244 Old 07-12-2014, 01:45 PM
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You could be right, but it is hard to reach accord when the target really can't be set yet. 4K displays are in considerable flux at this point. And all marketing is focused on the resolytion and really nothing else, oh year, trying to make a demand for a curved panel as something desirable. Do you think the mass market doesn't already think the existing color space is more than wide enough? Going to P3 would quarantee more panel sales in the future and given present 4K panel prices wouldn't generate a lot of public anger. It cpould be marketed just like 4 times the clarity etc.

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post #969 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 08:29 AM
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Just found that the new Onkyos (1030, 3030 available this summer), on top of their limited HDMI 2.0b speed, only support HDCP 2.2 on one input (HDMI IN 3) and one output (MAIN HDMI OUT), so absolutely useless for switching more than one 4K protected source, or if you have more than one 4K display.


No interest vs using the dual output of your source if you have only one 4K protected source.


Such a huge fail for ALL AVR manufacturers this year...


Keeping my Denon 3311 until they get their act together and offer HDCP 2.2 on all inputs / outputs and HDMI 2.0a speed.
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post #970 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
You could be right, but it is hard to reach accord when the target really can't be set yet. 4K displays are in considerable flux at this point. And all marketing is focused on the resolytion and really nothing else, oh year, trying to make a demand for a curved panel as something desirable. Do you think the mass market doesn't already think the existing color space is more than wide enough? Going to P3 would quarantee more panel sales in the future and given present 4K panel prices wouldn't generate a lot of public anger. It cpould be marketed just like 4 times the clarity etc.

I think its clear we will have different gamuts available with the various potential UHD sources. HDMI 2.0 allows for the exchange of gamut/colorspace info but the real question that must be decided is will the source device or the display device have the responsibility for colorspace conversions. I have seen one article where it is being proposed by the programming creators (e.g., movie studios) that the source device simply signal what colorspace was used to create that specific program and then it will be up to the display device to either display the program using the colorspace specified or to apply a conversion algorithm to modify the content to the nearest colorspace that can be supported by that display. That same industry group is planning on specifying this conversion algorithm(s). Now that sounds like a good long term solution but the near term issue that it introduces is that no current UHD TV nor projector has the capability to do this, still being developed, colorspace conversion. This is perhaps the biggest speed bump for today's rollout of UHD TVs and projectors. It will be interesting to see if the BDA takes above approach or decides that all BD UHD players must do the conversion of the colorspace to what can be supported by the connected display (either determined dynamically by what the display signals via HDMI 2.0 or perhaps manually set by the user in the player's setup menus).


There is no single authority that can dictate what all UHD sources and displays must be capable of. Having each display manufacturer make their own ad hoc decisions and each UHD source developer decide what they will support or not support is certainly not the ideal situation. ITU regulations apply to broadcast services and the FCC and equivalent national authorities work with the ITU for consistent use of the airwaves regionally and globally. The ITU and FCC cannot regulate services that are not using up rf spectrum and industry groups such as the BDA, CEA, etc. are useful and necessary for getting the CE manufacturers and programming suppliers together and forming a consensus solution. However this doesn't prevent a company such as Netflix, Youtube or Amazon from deciding what version of UHD that want to offer.

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post #971 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 12:11 PM
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This stuff is one reason why I was much more interested in finding a projector that could deliver more contrast/better black levels, vs more resolution.
I'm still much more interested in that than the addition of 4K resolution at this point.
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post #972 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 04:04 PM
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Just keep buying the latest JVC each year. They clearly spend their time making refinements and improvements that they simply couldn't have done a year earlier thus necessitating a yearly model flip by JVC fan boys. Of course you might refrain for one year but all the true fan boys know deep down that you are depriving yourself of JVC joy. If I owned a JVC, I would be flipping it each year too and thanking the JVC team for being able to improve so many things for the past year.

Meanwhile I am going on three years for my sony 1000/1100ES and Sony has not come out with anything better.. Pretty much got it right the first time although there are some things that could have been improved in the upgrade process. 4K sources are pretty much a joke now and in a few years things will settle down. Till then I keep on trucking watch 2K upscaled to 4K by my lumagen and displayed by the Sony. No complaints. I don't want anything better or even wish for anything better.
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post #973 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 04:19 PM
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Just keep buying the latest JVC each year. They clearly spend their time making refinements and improvements that they simply couldn't have done a year earlier thus necessitating a yearly model flip by JVC fan boys. Of course you might refrain for one year but all the true fan boys know deep down that you are depriving yourself of JVC joy. If I owned a JVC, I would be flipping it each year too and thanking the JVC team for being able to improve so many things for the past year.

Meanwhile I am going on three years for my sony 1000/1100ES and Sony has not come out with anything better.. Pretty much got it right the first time.
So true, Mark. The Sony 1000/1100 has certainly quenched my biannual JVC upgradeitasis, but if I give up my large Berkeley house and move into a smaller abode--that might necessitate a smaller screen--I might very well go back to a JVC since I might not need the higher brightness of the Sony (that I've enjoyed so much with my present large screen). Or I might just keep the Sony for another couple of yrs and go with a 1.0 gain screen like yours.
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post #974 of 1244 Old 07-13-2014, 05:01 PM
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That's one of the perks I would expect in paying for the bleeding edge: you are ahead of the curve and the lower cost models are playing catch-up for several years so it puts off the "upgraditus." Years after the introduction of the Sony 1000, JVC still isn't doing a native 4K panel, and still doesn't offer the brightness of the Sony, if they ever will.

Sometimes I want more brightness, other times I want deeper black levels. My black pit environment skews my criteria to black levels so I've continued to play "flip the JVC." ya picks yer poison.

I'm somewhat interested in what JVC will come out with this fall. A native 4K machine would be neat, but not lust-worthy to me given the state of 4K sources at this time. I felt sort of lackadaisical last year at this time because I didn't think I'd bother upgrading. It was only JVC doing the surprise introduction of a dynamic iris that compelled me to upgrade. I doubt anything similar will happen this year in terms of an advance in contrast, hence...I'm not as hyped. (With one exception perhaps - I really want to see the direction JVC goes in terms of brightness - and if there will be any significant increase in brightness I'd expect it to come from a native 4K model, so in a way I'm more interested in those type of changes over the actual 4K resolution itself).
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post #975 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 03:55 AM
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@Mark : Look what's on it's way to you...


They said they'll take the bands off and will mail them to you separately. Let us know when you get them, and please send us a nice smoke ring picture
Well done for winning this bet, the odds were always against me, but you were absolutely right all along.
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post #976 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 04:55 AM
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Thanks Manni01.

Rich. I too have a black pit. But I am pretty sure that the room environment is not the reason you favor projectors with high on/off contrast ratios (however achieved). High on off has substantial benefits regardless of the room.

In the old days the JVC mantra was native on/off which they led and still lead the world with chip wise. Of course in order to get the full benefits of the chip, light outputs had to be kept low. Long throw set up, clamp the iris down, and for next year's bump up reduce the light out even more.

Now JVC is a business, The market went high active or dynamic on/off ratio reporting. Native didn't matter in the market anymore. Besides its rather meaningless too. Its not the chip, its the entire light engine. And JVC marketed its chip, the differences in its LCOS vs their Lcos. The market started reporting very high DI assisted on/offs. And JVC couldn't compete advertising wise. So they joined the DI wave. And they and their ad boys could argue they did it better and year after year after year after year after year can keep improving the implementation. Bet your house that this year at Cedia they will have an II 2 that is substantially improved. No Sir, they will never be we got it right the first time. I am curious about their chip R&D branch. do they really discover ways to improve the chip every year and rush to implement it or do they at some point in time say here are a bunch of ways or tweaks to improve its performance. these can be implemented all at once during production or incrementally giving us a way every year of coming out with a better chip. Naw, slap my face, Its continuing R&D every year with implementation shortly after discovery. yea. That's it.

So what can we expect this year?


A new round of e-shift improvements. E-shift X.
Improved Mensa Iris, that's Intelligent Iris (II or DI for those who don't work for JVC).
Chip Improvements
and another 9 items of improvements. I'll add them later

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post #977 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 08:44 AM
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Mark,

Do you think the 2015 will end up being a worthy upgrade from a 2013 model (RS4810) even if one is not interested in using the DI? Will the chip improvement or something in the lens or light engine alone make it worth the upgrade? I know we are speculating here, but that's okay.

Edit: ooops, missed your post above - I see you basically answered it.

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post #978 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 09:03 AM
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Interesting thoughts Mark but I don't know if I agree completely. I think the last few years JVC have released products that could easily last 3 years for any user and be completely happy. And I think there are definitely areas that Sony could improve (their DI being probably one of the biggest, along with their native contrast). I think what your missing is expectation. No one expects Sony to release something new every year because Sony has always had a rather slow upgrade approach to their projector cycle wheras JVC seems to allows be fine tuning and releasing new projectors every year; sometimes with pretty substantial upgrades and sometimes with mainly refinements. JVC is far from perfect and there are a handful of items that need some drastic improvement (especially HDMI handshake times) but it isn't like the 1000/1100ES is perfect so Sony hasn't needed to update it. There is plenty of room for improvement. Honestly the only really cutting edge feature it brings is native 4K (which at the moment and for the last three years essentially gives you NOTHING) and high brightness. Its contrast performance is good, but it is about what the average JVC has delivered without a DI for the last few years. It is still a phenominal projector but we're in a golden era of projectors where there are a lot of superb offerings at all kinds of price points.

I'm happy to see Sony push technology to keep the ball moving but I'm also happy to see JVC constantly try and improve a design that is already ahead of the curve in so many areas. My biggest fear is that JVC will stop trying to improve in native contrast because of the DI, which is what Sony seemed to do and I think it hurts the overall performance of their projector. I'll get into this more in my upcoming review of the 1100ES which I'm wrapping up now.

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post #979 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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Interesting thoughts Mark but I don't know if I agree completely. I think the last few years JVC have released products that could easily last 3 years for any user and be completely happy. And I think there are definitely areas that Sony could improve (their DI being probably one of the biggest, along with their native contrast). I think what your missing is expectation. No one expects Sony to release something new every year because Sony has always had a rather slow upgrade approach to their projector cycle wheras JVC seems to allows be fine tuning and releasing new projectors every year; sometimes with pretty substantial upgrades and sometimes with mainly refinements. JVC is far from perfect and there are a handful of items that need some drastic improvement (especially HDMI handshake times) but it isn't like the 1000/1100ES is perfect so Sony hasn't needed to update it. There is plenty of room for improvement. Honestly the only really cutting edge feature it brings is native 4K (which at the moment and for the last three years essentially gives you NOTHING) and high brightness. Its contrast performance is good, but it is about what the average JVC has delivered without a DI for the last few years. It is still a phenominal projector but we're in a golden era of projectors where there are a lot of superb offerings at all kinds of price points.

I'm happy to see Sony push technology to keep the ball moving but I'm also happy to see JVC constantly try and improve a design that is already ahead of the curve in so many areas. My biggest fear is that JVC will stop trying to improve in native contrast because of the DI, which is what Sony seemed to do and I think it hurts the overall performance of their projector. I'll get into this more in my upcoming review of the 1100ES which I'm wrapping up now.
One aspect of the 1100/1000ES that is very important for my arrangement is its very short min throw ratio, ~1.27 (JVC's are 1.4, as I think many others also are). This is presumably due to its excellent lens, and makes it possible for me to use the large screen size I prefer (and still get the projector in the room!).
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Sony has a fantastic lens on the 1100 in every regard.

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post #981 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 10:07 AM
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Does the 1100 ES have as much lens shift as the JVC?

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Yep, skipping 4K to wait on 8K is going to be a long, long wait. I would expect some of your current equipment will die long before 8K physical media shows up.
Obsolescence -- be it natural or induced -- is occurring at an ever-quickening pace. That being the case, 8K may well first emerge in 2017 and be in full-swing by 2020. Of course, you'll need an HDMI 3.1 cable. If this forum still exists at that time, one of us gets to say "I told you so..."
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Obsolescence -- be it natural or induced -- is occurring at an ever-quickening pace. That being the case, 8K may well first emerge in 2017 and be in full-swing by 2020. Of course, you'll need an HDMI 3.1 cable. If this forum still exists at that time, one of us gets to say "I told you so..."
well and for those who are badmouthing 4k for having no tangible benefit over 1080p - what would they say about 8k?
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post #984 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 02:29 PM
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Obsolescence -- be it natural or induced -- is occurring at an ever-quickening pace. That being the case, 8K may well first emerge in 2017 and be in full-swing by 2020. Of course, you'll need an HDMI 3.1 cable. If this forum still exists at that time, one of us gets to say "I told you so..."
By full swing, I would take that as 8K BD available for all new movies coming out by 2020. In other words, I could go to Walmart and buy a 4K copy of a movie. I think I like that bet. CEDIA 2011 is when the VW1000ES came out and 4K BD may be a year or two away from being introduced, much less mainstream. I don't think 8K will be any faster. I guess we will have a better idea in 2017.

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post #985 of 1244 Old 07-14-2014, 03:32 PM
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Chris. What bothers me is yearly replacing models and a company plugging the replacement models as being a significant improvement. In essence they are competing against themselves. And they are indeed somewhat dependent on selling to the same customer over and over again. Sales jobs at JVC depend on this model and I truly believe JVC deliberately holds back so they actually have meaningful improvements every year. Its now almost August. JVC new models will ship in quantity by December. Would you buy a 2014 model now (the present model year) or would you wait? A salesman says if you wait, you will always be waiting. Its damn good now only tiny improvements are expected, buy now. When the new models ship, the tune MUST change.

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Chris. What bothers me is yearly replacing models and a company plugging the replacement models as being a significant improvement. In essence they are competing against themselves. And they are indeed somewhat dependent on selling to the same customer over and over again. Sales jobs at JVC depend on this model and I truly believe JVC deliberately holds back so they actually have meaningful improvements every year. Its now almost August. JVC new models will ship in quantity by December. Would you buy a 2014 model now (the present model year) or would you wait? A salesman says if you wait, you will always be waiting. Its damn good now only tiny improvements are expected, buy now. When the new models ship, the tune MUST change.
With JVC, it makes sense to me to skip a year between 'upgrades'. I had a RS1 for 2 yrs, then a RS20 for 2 yrs, and have now (thanks to your encouragement) gone with a Sony1000/1100 for 3 yrs, and may hold on to it for another yr or two. I liked JVC, but the brightness, in particular, of the Sony really trumps it for a large screen. Will be interesting to see how much longer the 1000/1100 hangs in. (Hope to see you at CEDIA.)
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post #987 of 1244 Old 07-15-2014, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Chris. What bothers me is yearly replacing models and a company plugging the replacement models as being a significant improvement. In essence they are competing against themselves. And they are indeed somewhat dependent on selling to the same customer over and over again. Sales jobs at JVC depend on this model and I truly believe JVC deliberately holds back so they actually have meaningful improvements every year. Its now almost August. JVC new models will ship in quantity by December. Would you buy a 2014 model now (the present model year) or would you wait? A salesman says if you wait, you will always be waiting. Its damn good now only tiny improvements are expected, buy now. When the new models ship, the tune MUST change.
If I was going to give advice on a projector for purchase and whether someone should upgrade a JVC to this year's model, it would all depend on the customer. I've said for quite some time now that no one should be buying ANY projector right now if they are looking for a "future proof" solution to 4K content. I've seen quite a few people justifying the higher prices of the Sony as a way of future proofing for 4K coming down the pipe. I see nothing but regret coming from that decision. If you're buying a Sony 4K projector you should be buying it for the performance it is offering you with content now, not what may or may not be available later. Thankfully you'll still have an outstanding projector. With JVC updates it all comes down to what is or isn't bothering you about your current projector. I know in the past I've had a few JVC projectors that I thought were terrific except for item X and when that was fixed I jumped. That is what happened last year when I upgraded my long in the tooth RS35 to the X75. The ONLY reason I upgraded to my current X700 from the X75 was because of the deal I got on the X700 and a buyer that was interested in my X75. It was WAY too good of a deal to pass up. Otherwise I would have stuck with my X75. With the timeline that is playing out for 4K Blu-ray, I honestly think most people can wait until CEDIA next year to see what is coming from Sony and JVC. This year will no doubt have improvements and maybe even native 4K from JVC but with no content, what's the rush?? If you're buying for 4K I would most likely wait until next CEDIA or even the CEDIA after that. Even if 4K Blu-ray launches holiday 2015 it is going to take quite a bit of time for a substantial library to build so maybe it will be worth waiting until CEDIA 2016. By then Sony will probably have a new 600ES replacement plus a lower cost 4K model. JVC will most likely be in their second if not third variation of native 4K.

Right now JVC has a few things that need improvement. HDMI stability and speed is probably the biggest issue. Refinement to their DI would be great too. Other than that, they're sitting pretty solid right now if the light output is good enough. Maybe they'll up that at some point, maybe not. Sony really needs to start looking to improve their native contrast because while their iris works great with a full blackout, add even a single white object to that image and the black floor raises significantly. But its light output is exceptional, HDMI implementation is flawless and it throws a razor sharp image.

Ultimately with ALL HT equipment I tell people to be honest with themselves and sit down and watch content and ask themselves what they feel is lacking (if anything). Is there something in your system that is actually nagging on you? Forget about being at the bleeding edge, fix things that actually bother you. There is a reason I have a pre-pro that has been around for years and years now, it doesn't leave ANYTHING to be desired in audio performance. I try and limit my upgrades to fixing things that I find lacking and nag on me. After that I have to upgrade to keep up with new tech because I have to be able to evaluate it for reviews. Its fun being on the cutting edge, but right now that cutting edge is still a few ways away from being valid IMHO because with no content what's the point? I'd rather hold off for content and let the hardware that plays it mature and then get in on it. It will only be better and most likely cheaper.
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post #988 of 1244 Old 07-15-2014, 09:50 AM
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I think many people who replace an already great projector are often disappointed with there purchase as not delivering a large jump in image quality. They end up returning the machine. Some just like to play hoping against hope to see a great improvement. Once a cheap machine gets long in the tooth, a new projector will indeed show substantial improvements in overall image quality. But yearly increments are rather small and unless one eliminates something deficiency wise such as not enough 3D light or substantially reduced lag for gamers are probably not worth the expense. But if its a hobby and if you can afford a new model why not? If one is constantly on the forum, the hobby aspect is more important than actual viewing unless you can multitask and watch content deeply while you post drivel, you are a hobbyist first. Its the road trip rather than the destination.

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post #989 of 1244 Old 07-15-2014, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I think many people who replace an already great projector are often disappointed with there purchase as not delivering a large jump in image quality. They end up returning the machine. Some just like to play hoping against hope to see a great improvement. Once a cheap machine gets long in the tooth, a new projector will indeed show substantial improvements in overall image quality. But yearly increments are rather small and unless one eliminates something deficiency wise such as not enough 3D light or substantially reduced lag for gamers are probably not worth the expense. But if its a hobby and if you can afford a new model why not? If one is constantly on the forum, the hobby aspect is more important than actual viewing unless you can multitask and watch content deeply while you post drivel, you are a hobbyist first. Its the road trip rather than the destination.
I look for small improvements and it is definitely a hobby for me. I am building new LCR's for my system and I expect them to perform better, but what I had was very good, so improvement will be incremental, especially for the time and effort involved.

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post #990 of 1244 Old 07-15-2014, 10:09 AM
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Mark and Kris, I think you guys are very much on the same page with your last two posts; very sensible analyses.

For me, the only thing that would make me want to replace my Sony 1000/1100 is a unit with much higher native CR, but which retains all its present strong attributes (brightness, lens quantity, etc.) that Kris noted--could be either a Sony or JVC. But I realize that this is unlikely. JVC has not significantly increased the light output of their pj's since the RS1, and for many people it is sufficient. And though Sony's native CR is very good, they haven't made any progress in keeping up with JVC in this regard. Without some new technology, it may simply be that very high brightness and native CR are mutually exclusive.
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