Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 37 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 109Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1081 of 1233 Old 08-02-2014, 10:50 PM
Member
 
bass excavator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
And you honetly think people who only needed to buy one thing (a 3D capable TV) are now going to completely renovate a room to install a whole slew of extra speakers to take advantage of Atmos in the home? If Dolby thinks average consumers are going to do this then they are naive and don't know the average consumer very well. If anything, "Atmos" is just a marketing catch phrase to get people to buy a new receiver even though 99% of them will never take advantage of the technology. 7.1 is still ultra rare what makes you think more channels is the answer to the slump in profits? Atmos is anything but the answer. We need something more easily obtainable. Higher bit depth, larger color spaces, larger screens, higher contrast/dynamic range, and higher resolution is the answer. The sum of those parts are visibly better than what we have now. It isn't something gimmicky like Atmos will be in the home.
Thank goodness for this sensible answer. DTS is claiming that with their object based metaengine they can do the object based thing without the need for additional speakers. Your last sentences from "Higher bit depth....." make the most sense Seegs. Atmos, as it is being marketed, will be a bust in the highest order with the general consumer market. In otherwords, a niche for the hardcore addicts that will be short lived.

Enter all at the strait gate and walk the narrow way.
"I am the way the truth and the life, no one enters the Fathers' Kingdom except through me."

Jesus is the strait gate.
bass excavator is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1082 of 1233 Old 08-02-2014, 11:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
Thank goodness for this sensible answer. DTS is claiming that with their object based metaengine they can do the object based thing without the need for additional speakers. Your last sentences from "Higher bit depth....." make the most sense Seegs. Atmos, as it is being marketed, will be a bust in the highest order with the general consumer market. In otherwords, a niche for the hardcore addicts that will be short lived.
Yep. People who are post here will love Atmos. I'm not trying to trivialize the technology. I'm sure it will definitely be better than what we have now (maximum of 8 discrete channels). But as I said, who among us have an 8 channel system? That's already less common among people who claim to have a "home theater setup". Also, I find that 5.1 and 7.1 setup's are convenient to setup. There are fairly strict guidelines on how many speakers to have and where to place the speakers. With Atmos it's a scalable technology. I feel that right there is going to scare a lot of people off. I can foresee dozens of convoluted forum posts on how many speakers one should have to get a proper "atmos experience". Not only that, but for a person to get the best experience they should be using dedicated speakers in the correct spots, many of which are ceiling positioned. I just think the difficulty in setup and price are going to push a lot of people away from even considering a speaker setup like this. I would like to see an honest poll of AVSForum members who have height and wide speakers (for Dolby Pro Logic IIz). I think that will give you an honest representation of how many people (who are already enthusiasts with their setups) who will actually do a proper Atmos speaker setup. And remember, this poll is like Inception. The ones who will have an Atmos setup are enthusiasts who are more enthusiastic than the normal enthusiasts. AKA the definition of niche. This is what Atmos will be.

I feel a new 4K/UHD video format is FAR more reasonable to be "the next thing" because the (single) display itself will include the many enhancements that the new format dictates a display to have. The simplicity of owning and setting up a single tangible thing is FAR more appealing to the average consumer than Atmos is. This is my problem with Atmos. It's just too complex for the average consumer and this is why I think it will always be niche. That isn't to say the experience of a well setup Atmos system isn't indeed better or amazing. On the contrary, I'm sure it is, but I feel it's out of reach for the normal consumer in their living room whereas a 4K/UHD video format is easily obtainable because of it's "all-in-one-ness", just like a 3D television. This is the same issue 4K blu-ray is going to have. Is the simplicity of 4K streaming services going to be the demise of a quality video experience? Will surround audio formats take a step back due to simplicity? Anyone remember the CD to MP3 transition? If anything, history tells us the average consumer, aka the deciding factor, chooses simplicity over complexity. This is why I don't see Atmos going anywhere and also why I just can't see it as "the next thing" or some type of financial booster for Dolby. The only place I see this making money for Dolby is getting money for the rights of the format being included on mass market A/V receivers. Licensing fees will make them some cash, but I don't see the format actually taking hold.
nucky likes this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-03-2014 at 12:06 AM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1083 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 07:14 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 405
If you are buying a new system, there is not going to be much if any difference setting up mains with Atmos speakers built into them, compared to setting up a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Not even sure that it rates as a speed bump of a problem. A lot easier to set up than adding heights or wide speakers and I bet it is more impact full than heights or wide's. View this as Joe Blow buying a new system. The sales person shows him one system that is standard 5.1. He then shows him a system that is 5.2.1 with Atmos and tells the guy, that you set this up in the same way, with the mains bouncing the sound off of the ceiling. The added cool factor will be a big draw, so other than price, what is to keep the person from going with Atmos? Now if you have an existing system, it is expensive to consider changing mains and changing AVR's. Those are the guys that will have to think about going with ceiling speakers and will run into WAF. As for preference, I would much prefer an object based system.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #1084 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
There are the "simulated" atmos speakers, I realize that and that will make set up a little easier, but that isn't how you are supposed to properly set up the system. Ideally you want dedicated speakers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-03-2014 at 08:52 AM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1085 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 09:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 414 Post(s)
Liked: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
If you are buying a new system, there is not going to be much if any difference setting up mains with Atmos speakers built into them, compared to setting up a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Not even sure that it rates as a speed bump of a problem. A lot easier to set up than adding heights or wide speakers and I bet it is more impact full than heights or wide's. View this as Joe Blow buying a new system. The sales person shows him one system that is standard 5.1. He then shows him a system that is 5.2.1 with Atmos and tells the guy, that you set this up in the same way, with the mains bouncing the sound off of the ceiling. The added cool factor will be a big draw, so other than price, what is to keep the person from going with Atmos? Now if you have an existing system, it is expensive to consider changing mains and changing AVR's. Those are the guys that will have to think about going with ceiling speakers and will run into WAF. As for preference, I would much prefer an object based system.

Ever have a sound demo at Best Buy? Where exactly are salesmen going to do these demos? If you have a real theater set up, your ceiling is treated for the system you already have and if your ceiling is not treated properly already for your existing set up you are just buying for the sake of buying. If your ceiling is already treated, install mounted on the ceiling Atmos speakers if you want and be done with it. This will be the most cost effective approach and all an Atmos adopter needs to do is to cut some holes in his/her ceiling to match those in his/her head, pull some cheap spkr wires, and then patch and repaint.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #1086 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ericglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Just below the US in South Florida
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are the "simulated" atmos speakers, I realize that and that will make set up a little easier, but that isn't how you are supposed to properly set up the system. Ideally you want dedicated speakers.

And what are you basing this off of? Have you heard a demo with both ceiling and integrated speakers?
David Susilo likes this.

Call AVS For the Best Deals!!!


My new favorite game is Stop the Bots
Ericglo is offline  
post #1087 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:12 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Ever have a sound demo at Best Buy? Where exactly are salesmen going to do these demos? If you have a real theater set up, your ceiling is treated for the system you already have and if your ceiling is not treated properly already for your existing set up you are just buying for the sake of buying. If your ceiling is already treated, install mounted on the ceiling Atmos speakers if you want and be done with it. This will be the most cost effective approach and all an Atmos adopter needs to do is to cut some holes in his/her ceiling to match those in his/her head, pull some cheap spkr wires, and then patch and repaint.

Yes I agree with you regarding the dedicated rooms. I was taling Joe Blow, who has his system set up in his living room or den. Those are the guys that will have to buy for Atmos to make it and I was just saying, they can do this by bouncing the sound off of their untreated ceilings. Many will buy it for the coolness alone.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #1088 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
And what are you basing this off of? Have you heard a demo with both ceiling and integrated speakers?
Umm, I'm basing it off of the fact that one is simulated and the other isn't? I'm not really sure what you're asking.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-03-2014 at 09:13 PM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1089 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ericglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Just below the US in South Florida
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Umm, I'm basing it off of the facy that one is simulated and the other isn't? I'm not really sure what you're asking.
So, you haven't heard a demo? There have only been a couple of reports of people hearing demos to my knowledge. Andrew Jones seemed to prefer the upfiring approach. Scott Wilkinson mentioned liking the demo he heard. Until people hear both implementations or Dolby releases more info, it is speculation which is better.

As Mark said, Joe Blow will probably be happy with the Pioneer approach. Of course, that will dependent on the sales ability of the retailers and marketing mags.
David Susilo likes this.

Call AVS For the Best Deals!!!


My new favorite game is Stop the Bots
Ericglo is offline  
post #1090 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 08:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David Susilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Markham, Canada
Posts: 9,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 303 Post(s)
Liked: 414
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There are the "simulated" atmos speakers, I realize that and that will make set up a little easier, but that isn't how you are supposed to properly set up the system. Ideally you want dedicated speakers.
These so-called "simulated" speakers ARE dedicated speakers. They have their own speaker input terminals separate from the main speaker input terminals.

It is typical of too many AVS members. Never experienced it but very vocal against it (the same goes with 4K, curved TV, the list goes on)
stef2, docevil and Andreas21 like this.

follow my A/V tweets @davidsusilo

ISF, THX, CEDIA, Control4 & HAA certified
Reviewer for TED, QAV, AUVI & DownUnder Audio Magazine


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

David Susilo is online now  
post #1091 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 09:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
These so-called "simulated" speakers ARE dedicated speakers. They have their own speaker input terminals separate from the main speaker input terminals.

It is typical of too many AVS members. Never experienced it but very vocal against it (the same goes with 4K, curved TV, the list goes on)
Obviously they're speakers, but they're used to directionalize the sound and it has to be bounced off of another surface. This is hardly the ideal solution. What if you have a treated room?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1092 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 09:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 414 Post(s)
Liked: 463
Its the AV Science Forum two out of three monkeys approach. One monkey is blind (never saw it), one monkey is deaf (never heard it), and the last monkey can't speak. Posting is speaking.
David Susilo and dandiego like this.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #1093 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 09:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Mark, I'm not against Atmos. I think some people are taking my comments out of context. My initial post was about someone saying that Atmos was a means for Dobly to get ahead financially in that Atmos was going to revolutionize the A/V community. I was simply saying that a 4K/UHD standard is something that is far easier to obtain and most people (who already don't have a surround sound setup) will see the single, easy to place/setup, device as the more logical choice when spending money. I just don't see Atmos catching on with great popularity. I'm not knocking the technology from a theoretical or real world experience point of view. I'm sure it sounds great. I just don't see it as something most will actually install. I just don't think this is what's going to catch popularity in the coming next few years.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1094 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 11:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
David Susilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Markham, Canada
Posts: 9,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 303 Post(s)
Liked: 414
How many people have their ceilings treated? For people with that "problem"...just add ceiling speakers! The industry don't have time to cater to the 0.01% of the population.

follow my A/V tweets @davidsusilo

ISF, THX, CEDIA, Control4 & HAA certified
Reviewer for TED, QAV, AUVI & DownUnder Audio Magazine


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

David Susilo is online now  
post #1095 of 1233 Old 08-03-2014, 11:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
How many people have their ceilings treated? For people with that "problem"...just add ceiling speakers! The industry don't have time to cater to the 0.01% of the population.
Again, you're taking my comments out of context. You're basing your comments on my issue with Atmos as "the next big thing". I have no issue with Atmos as a technology. You're responding to my comments as if I think Atmos is terrible or something. You also seem to have a problem with me saying that dedicated speakers are better for Atmos? Can we agree on that at least? I know there is an easier solution by using a speaker that can simulate a dedicated speaker by bouncing the sound off of another surface, but using a dedicated speaker is the better solution. That's all I'm saying. Am I incorrect?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1096 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 12:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,375
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Again, you're taking my comments out of context. You're basing your comments on my issue with Atmos as "the next big thing". I have no issue with Atmos as a technology. You're responding to my comments as if I think Atmos is terrible or something. You also seem to have a problem with me saying that dedicated speakers are better for Atmos? Can we agree on that at least? I know there is an easier solution by using a speaker that can simulate a dedicated speaker by bouncing the sound off of another surface, but using a dedicated speaker is the better solution. That's all I'm saying. Am I incorrect?
Yes in my opinion you are incorrect because most of the people who have heard the two home solutions (ceiling speakers vs dolby speakers with dedicated drivers firing upwards, there is no simulation) actually preferred the dolby speakers option (provided their ceiling is within 8-12 feet high and isn't treated in the area where the sound is reflected, which doesn't mean the ceiling can't be treated at all).


This include people with much more experience and knowledge on speaker design and implementation than you and I, some with an agenda as they designed some of the said speakers (and in the past designed some of the best conventional speakers, so they know what they are doing and speaking about) and some simply experienced people who were lucky enough to get a demo. Most of these were expecting to be disappointed by the Atmos speakers solution, and were genuinely surprised by the result, often preferring it when compared in the same room with ceiling speakers.


Atmos speakers ARE DEDICATED SPEAKERS. They have discrete channels and drivers for the Atmos channels. They are NOT simulated. Using the ceiling to reflect the atmos speakers sound might in fact produce a more effective overhead effect because the sound is diffused instead of the source being exactly positioned. I personally have no idea because I haven't had a chance to hear any of the home solutions, so I keep an open mind.


Like most of us here, you haven't experienced either home solution, so while you are free to have an opinion about the way the technology will succeed or not vs 4K bluray, please do not state as facts things you have obviously not researched enough.


You seem to consider that Atmos speakers are like a sound bar which simulates a surround sound with only two channels playing on delay times. It's simply not the case.


So please do more research, and ideally get some first hand experience, before letting us know what you think. That would be really valuable, as your first hand experience is usually correct. Otherwise, it's just your opinion, and everyone has a right to - respectfully - disagree with you .

Now as this is a 4K bluray thread, please could we get at least a little bit back on topic? I know I contributed to raise the AVR issue due to the lack of proper HDMI 2.0 implementation in the new models, but I was trying to remain on topic . I'm starting to feel sorry for Ron's thread and for those who are going to come here to get info on 4K bluray.

Last edited by Manni01; 08-04-2014 at 12:37 AM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1097 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 01:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes in my opinion you are incorrect because most of the people who have heard the two home solutions (ceiling speakers vs dolby speakers with dedicated drivers firing upwards, there is no simulation) actually preferred the dolby speakers option (provided their ceiling is within 8-12 feet high and isn't treated in the area where the sound is reflected, which doesn't mean the ceiling can't be treated at all).


This include people with much more experience and knowledge on speaker design and implementation than you and I, some with an agenda as they designed some of the said speakers (and in the past designed some of the best conventional speakers, so they know what they are doing and speaking about) and some simply experienced people who were lucky enough to get a demo. Most of these were expecting to be disappointed by the Atmos speakers solution, and were genuinely surprised by the result, often preferring it when compared in the same room with ceiling speakers.


Atmos speakers ARE DEDICATED SPEAKERS. They have discrete channels and drivers for the Atmos channels. They are NOT simulated. Using the ceiling to reflect the atmos speakers sound might in fact produce a more effective overhead effect because the sound is diffused instead of the source being exactly positioned. I personally have no idea because I haven't had a chance to hear any of the home solutions, so I keep an open mind.


Like most of us here, you haven't experienced either home solution, so while you are free to have an opinion about the way the technology will succeed or not vs 4K bluray, please do not state as facts things you have obviously not researched enough.


You seem to consider that Atmos speakers are like a sound bar which simulates a surround sound with only two channels playing on delay times. It's simply not the case.


So please do more research, and ideally get some first hand experience, before letting us know what you think. That would be really valuable, as your first hand experience is usually correct. Otherwise, it's just your opinion, and everyone has a right to - respectfully - disagree with you .

Now as this is a 4K bluray thread, please could we get at least a little bit back on topic? I know I contributed to raise the AVR issue due to the lack of proper HDMI 2.0 implementation in the new models, but I was trying to remain on topic . I'm starting to feel sorry for Ron's thread and for those who are going to come here to get info on 4K bluray.

Ouch, I think I might cry. I also never said they work like sound bars. I used the word simulated because they SIMULATE a speaker that's placed elsewhere. That's great if you disagree with me that it isn't going to be the next big thing. We'll see what happens in the next couple years and see how much Atmos catches on in the home. How's that bet with Mark going?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-04-2014 at 01:17 AM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1098 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 01:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,375
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Ouch, I think I might cry. I also never said they work like sound bars. I used the word simulated because they SIMULATE a speaker that's placed elsewhere. That's great if you disagree with me that it isn't going to be the next big thing. We'll see what happens in the next couple years and see how much Atmos catches on in the home. How's that bet with Mark going?
I lost that bet - although technically I'll only have lost it on the 31st of December, but I am able to accept when I'm wrong which is good as it's often the case - and have sent 3 cubanos -Romeo y Julietta Churchills, his favourite in case you'd like to surprise him - to Mark.


It cost me dearly - although I enjoy indulging Mark's guilty pleasure - that's why I stopped making silly predictions when I have no fact and no reliable crystal ball.


I never said Atmos is going to be the next big thing or not, I just disagree when you call Atmos speakers simulated and conclude without having listened to either solution that one has to be better than the other, which goes against the feedback we have now from people who have actual experience of both solutions.
David Susilo and Andreas21 like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 08-04-2014 at 01:29 AM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1099 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 01:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
What word would you use to describe what the Dolby speakers do then?

Maybe I'll learn my lesson one day. My opinoon is based upon tons of polls and statistical information. 5.1 only caught on in the home in large numbers because of mass market HTIB speaker/receiver sets. People who post and visit this website are an amazingly small portion of what normal consumers represent. I'm not using a crystal ball but rather using what happened in the past with surround sound to create my opinion on the subject I'm not saying Atmos isn't better and I never have, I'm just saying most don't have a surround sound setup, an even smaller portion have non-HTIB surround setups, even fewer have it set up properly in a sound treated room, and an even smaller amount have an appropriate room setup and more than 8 channels (to take advantage of PLIIz). All the evidence that more dedicated speakers/channels or, if you get the Dolby speakers, a new set of speakers is probably not going to catch on and be the new big thing in home theater. To get back to original point of this thread, a UHD standard and display devices to show off that standard are what I think is going to be the next big thing and THAT was the entire point of me getting into the atmos discussion in this thread to begin with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1100 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 01:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I never said Atmos is going to be the next big thing or not, I just disagree when you call Atmos speakers simulated and conclude without having listened to either solution that one has to be better than the other, which goes against the feedback we have now from people who have actual experience of both solutions.
Right, and my posts weren't meant to be for you. My posts about this started with someone saying Dolby Atmos was going to be a big deal or at least Dolby thinks it's going to be a big deal. From there it snowballed into people commenting on certain portions of that initial post and snippets from the posts thereafter. It's really gotten convoluted. But, me not knowing every intricate detail of the technology has nothing to do with my opinion on why I don't think it's going to be huge in the home. I don't have to be an expert or listen to it first hand to think that it won't be successful. If you're upset or don't agree with what I'm saying that's fine, but make sure you understand the context of my posts first.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-04-2014 at 01:51 AM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1101 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 04:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 19,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 414 Post(s)
Liked: 463
It simply won't be a big deal. Most people think 5.1 is good enough for them and many think a sound bar and sub fills that ticket.

Where do we see 7.1 etc, in dedicated rooms and dedicated HT. Commercial theaters use discrete Atmos speakers in the ceiling and where I have seen it, it is an array positioned about 1.3 the length from the screen to the back wall. You simply can't use reflection over a long distance from the radiator (speaker) to the reflector (ceiling) to the listener that would be normal in a commercial theater.


The concept of using a reflector to send sound to a listener so that with other sources of sound the listener can pinpoint where an object is (say a drone overhead) is inane because of the diffuse character of the reflected sound. Reflectors will be different. Maybe we should come out with an AVS standardized Atmos ceiling reflector. Its almost like the old Bose 901 approach. Aim some speakers at the ceiling and you will hear sound coming from the ceiling. Wow. The whole ceiling is a speaker and by choosing what part of the sound we send there and what part to other radiators (direct in most cases). But shoot it at the ceiling as long as its not an absorber and it will work and maybe even better than direct radiators placed in the ceiling. Who placed them? What kind? Omni's? I think direct ceiling radiators, the type and location will be determinative and this will develop over time. Shoot em up on the ceiling, three minutes, buy a new set of speakers and there you go. Sounds great.

My prediction? Atmos will not be widespread adopted. Most just don't care enough about sound and where they do, its more subs and bigger and bigger ones.
bass excavator and Seegs108 like this.

Mark Haflich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

call me at: 240 876 2536

Last edited by mark haflich; 08-05-2014 at 07:22 AM.
mark haflich is offline  
post #1102 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 08:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ericglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Just below the US in South Florida
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What word would you use to describe what the Dolby speakers do then?
.
They are no more simulated than ceiling speakers or maybe I don't understand Atmos. From my understanding, Atmos creates a three dimensional soundfield with an object oriented system. This means it can put an object anywhere in that soundfield or hemisphere. The way I see it is that four ceiling speakers may be to directional to create a large soundfield. With 34 speakers and 10 of those being in the ceiling, I could see Atmos creating a truly excellent soundfield. Of course this is my belief with my limited knowledge and no experience with Atmos. Hopefully Cedia will be enlightening and give plenty of information on the best ways to achieve an excellent Atmos implementation.

On the wide spread adoption, I think it may be harder just for the fact that it is not called Atmos in all of the theaters that are using it. I believe AMC calls it ETX or something. Kind of hard for the general public to get excited about hearing something in the theater called one thing and then having to be told it is actually named something else.
Dan Hitchman likes this.

Call AVS For the Best Deals!!!


My new favorite game is Stop the Bots
Ericglo is offline  
post #1103 of 1233 Old 08-04-2014, 09:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
They are no more simulated than ceiling speakers or maybe I don't understand Atmos. From my understanding, Atmos creates a three dimensional soundfield with an object oriented system. This means it can put an object anywhere in that soundfield or hemisphere. The way I see it is that four ceiling speakers may be to directional to create a large soundfield. With 34 speakers and 10 of those being in the ceiling, I could see Atmos creating a truly excellent soundfield. Of course this is my belief with my limited knowledge and no experience with Atmos. Hopefully Cedia will be enlightening and give plenty of information on the best ways to achieve an excellent Atmos implementation.

On the wide spread adoption, I think it may be harder just for the fact that it is not called Atmos in all of the theaters that are using it. I believe AMC calls it ETX or something. Kind of hard for the general public to get excited about hearing something in the theater called one thing and then having to be told it is actually named something else.
A dedicated speaker is just that, dedicated to one spot/orientation where as the Dolby speaker simulates what that dedicated speaker will sound like from that spot. Let's stop talking in semantics and call it what it is. This is in no way trivializing what the Dolby speaker sounds like. I have no context for either setup, but for some reason people have an issue with me saying one is a dedicated speaker and the other is simulating what that speaker would sound like by directionalizing sound to bounce off that same spot. I'll say it again, if someone has an issue with the word "simulated" please, by all means, give me a better word to use and I'll use it. Simulated fits best because it's imitating what a real speaker in that spot would sound like.
Dan Hitchman likes this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by DrDon; 08-05-2014 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Condescending remarks removed
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1104 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 05:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
HockeyoAJB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
A dedicated speaker is just that, dedicated to one spot/orientation where as the Dolby speaker simulates what that dedicated speaker will sound like from that spot. Let's stop talking in semantics and call it what it is. This is in no way trivializing what the Dolby speaker sounds like. I have no context for either setup, but for some reason people have an issue with me saying one is a dedicated speaker and the other is simulating what that speaker would sound like by directionalizing sound to bounce off that same spot. I'll say it again, if someone has an issue with the word "simulated" please, by all means, give me a better word to use and I'll use it. Simulated fits best because it's imitating what a real speaker in that spot would sound like.
Atmos enabled speakers don't attempt to simulate actual speakers in your ceiling. They attempt to simulate objects in a 3-dimensional space, just as in-ceiling speakers do. If your in-ceiling speakers are at a 45 degrees angle from center, measured in the x-y plane, approx. 6 feet away from you, and your system is trying to reproduce a sound that comes from 30 degrees off center at a distance of 20 feet from you then the system will have to use a combination of speakers and HRTF to make it sound like the object is coming from where it is supposed to instead of where your speakers actually are. Unless the position of one of your speakers perfectly matches the position of the object it is trying to replicate, then it too is simulating a source of sound coming from a different location. Some would argue that the entire purpose of any speaker is to simulate sounds created by something else.

When it comes to Atmos enabled speakers w/ upfiring drivers, the only things I would worry about are...

1) Does it have the proper directional characteristics needed in order to reproduce fairly directional sound from the driver, up to the ceiling, and back down to you?
2) Is your ceiling capable of reflecting the required frequencies without significant distortion?
3) Are the head-related transfer functions that are needed to fool you into believing that the sound is coming from where it should be up to snuff?
HockeyoAJB is online now  
post #1105 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 05:32 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
A dedicated speaker is just that, dedicated to one spot/orientation where as the Dolby speaker simulates what that dedicated speaker will sound like from that spot. Let's stop talking in semantics and call it what it is. This is in no way trivializing what the Dolby speaker sounds like. I have no context for either setup, but for some reason people have an issue with me saying one is a dedicated speaker and the other is simulating what that speaker would sound like by directionalizing sound to bounce off that same spot. I'll say it again, if someone has an issue with the word "simulated" please, by all means, give me a better word to use and I'll use it. Simulated fits best because it's imitating what a real speaker in that spot would sound like.

In an object based system, they do not use one speaker to pinpoint the sound, unless that sound was supposed to come from that exact location. Two or more speakers would be used to precisely pinpoint (triangulate) the location that the sound is coming from. This is why the speakers do not have to be in an exact location, but they do have to be spread out enough to cover the whole area. Some of the high end audio processors have been doing this for a couple years for 5.1 and 7.1 material.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #1106 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 06:24 AM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 6,725
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 372 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Whoa so much opinions, it would be interesting to know those who speak with experience and have actually heard both Atmos in the home:

One with dedicated in ceiling the other with reflecting speakers, only then should you express your opinion! Maybe a poll is in order?

My humble Cinema
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wse is offline  
post #1107 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 06:35 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Whoa so much opinions, it would be interesting to know those who speak with experience and have actually heard both Atmos in the home:

One with dedicated in ceiling the other with reflecting speakers, only then should you express your opinion! Maybe a poll is in order?
If you are referring to me, I did not express an opinion. I just stated how an object based system works. As for hearing Atmos in the home, it would be a very lopsided poll. After CEDIA, then, I would expect, there should be several people that will be able to report on it.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #1108 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 06:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 4,104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Mike, I still think this comes down to semantics. The very fact that one system has to rely on a reflection of sound, even if that sound doesn't have a location specific sound characteristic to it, doesn't change that the reflection point is the same location the dedicated speaker would normally be placed, or at least in the same area. I suppose you could argue, because it's going to "triangulate the sound" the reflection location can vary as long as the sound still sounds the same when met with the other speakers' sound but it would still be simulating sound from a different vantage point because of the very nature of how the Dolby system works (reflection of sound). Mark also brings up a few very good reasons why room size/treatments and seating locations might be an issue with the Dolby based speakers.

I have no first hand knowledge and my aim here isn't to put one system above or below the other. I personally don't plan on owning an Atmos system for quite some time. My only aim here is to get one person to say that the two systems are at least different in their approach, not that one is better or worse than the other. I think people are mistaking my posts by thinking I'm trivializing the Dolby speakers. I'm not. I'm trying to explain that the two are simply different.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Seegs108; 08-05-2014 at 06:51 AM.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #1109 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 06:47 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,602
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Mike, I still think this comes down to semantics. The very fact that one system has to rely on a reflection of sound, even if that sound doesn't have a location specific sound characteristic to it, doesn't change that the reflection point is coming from the same location the dedicated speaker would normally be placed, or at least in the same area. Mark also brings up a few very good reasons why room size/treatments and seating locations might be an issue with the Dolby based speakers.
Room size and treatments will make a big difference. There is a ceiling height limit, if using the reflected sound method and ceiling treatments at reflection points are a definite no no. I think the reflection method was brought out as a simple, clever way to add Atmos to many existing rooms, without requiring pulling wires to the ceiling. I will add, if I add Atmos to my room, I will not be using the reflection method.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Brands we sell: 
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
Call for B-stock projectors
Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI, Falcon & many more.
RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.
AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #1110 of 1233 Old 08-05-2014, 06:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
HockeyoAJB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Whoa so much opinions, it would be interesting to know those who speak with experience and have actually heard both Atmos in the home:

One with dedicated in ceiling the other with reflecting speakers, only then should you express your opinion! Maybe a poll is in order?
The whole topic of Atmos belongs in a different thread. This thread is supposed to be about 4K Blu-Ray. The only connection between the two is that some 4K Blu-Ray discs are likely to have Atmos soundtracks. Then again, Atmos soundtracks are certainly not being limited to only 4K Blu-Ray, so there is really no reason to be discussing it here when there are already a dozen other threads on the topic.

At present, I wouldn't bother posting a poll asking for people's opinions about in-ceiling speakers vs. Atmos-enabled upfiring speakers as only a handful of people have had the opportunity to hear the home version of either one. I'd wait until the equipment and content has been out for at least a couple months to post that poll.
HockeyoAJB is online now  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off