Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 39 - AVS Forum
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post #1141 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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A short paper has been issued out of the ITU MPEG group meeting that approved the 2nd edition of H.265 (link below for the full paper in MS Word format).
http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/sites/d.../w14537_0.docx


Included is the following description related to HEVC:


At the 109th MPEGmeeting, the standard development work was completed for two importantextensions to the High Efficiency Video Coding standard (ISO/IEC 23008-2, also standardized by ITU-T as Rec. H.265).

The first of these are the scalability extensions of HEVC, known as SHVC, adding support for embedded bitstream scalability in which different levels of encoding quality are efficiently supported by adding or removing layered subsets of encoded data. The other are the multiview extensions of HEVC, known as MV-HEVC providing efficient representation of video content with multiple camera views and optional depth map information, such as for 3D stereoscopic and autostereoscopic video applications. MV-HEVC is the 3D video extension of HEVC, and further work for more efficient coding of 3D video is ongoing.

SHVC and MV-HEVC will be combined with the original content of the HEVC standard and also the recently-completed format range extensions (known as RExt), so that a new edition of the standard will be published that contains all extensions approved up to this time.

In addition, the finalization of reference software and a conformance test set for HEVC was completed at the 109th meeting, as ISO/IEC 23008-5 and ISO/IEC 23008-8, respectively. These important standards will greatly help industry achieve effective interoperability between products using HEVC and provide valuable information to ease the development of such products.
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post #1142 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 08:57 AM
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Thanks for publishing that in the equivalent to Greek. Perhaps somebody could dumb it down a bit.

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post #1143 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 09:48 AM
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Thanks for publishing that in the equivalent to Greek. Perhaps somebody could dumb it down a bit.
As I understand it, SHVC will allow to embed various layers so that depending on the player's capabilities you can get various levels of quality. Think DTS-HD with a core and a lossless extension, but with more than one extension (something like core, Level1, level2, etc). If the player isn't very powerful, it will reproduce the video at core quality. As players have more and more power, they will be able to "read" more levels and achieve better quality. This is more efficient than having one stream per quality as each level uses the info contained in the lower levels.

MV-HEVC is the 3D equivalent for h265 of MVC for h264, which what is used to encode 3D blurays in full quality. So 3D Blurays use MVC, 3D 4K Blurays will use MV-HEVC.
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post #1144 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Thanks for publishing that in the equivalent to Greek. Perhaps somebody could dumb it down a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As I understand it, SHVC will allow to embed various layers so that depending on the player's capabilities you can get various levels of quality. Think DTS-HD with a core and a lossless extension, but with more than one extension (something like core, Level1, level2, etc). If the player isn't very powerful, it will reproduce the video at core quality. As players have more and more power, they will be able to "read" more levels and achieve better quality. This is more efficient than having one stream per quality as each level uses the info contained in the lower levels.

MV-HEVC is the 3D equivalent for h265 of MVC for h264, which what is used to encode 3D blurays in full quality. So 3D Blurays use MVC, 3D 4K Blurays will use MV-HEVC.

SHVC could, for example, allow the main/core encoded layer to be 1080p/8-bit while the extension layer(s) could add the extra information to bring the resolution up to UHD or for increased bit depths, etc. The simpler codec used by for digital cinema does something similar where the main layer has 2K resolution and the extension adds the additional info bring it up to 4K. In this case the extension layer requires a much lower data rate to increase the resolution from 2K to 4K. This is done because most commercial cinemas still have 2K projectors while 4K is still rolling out. The same data source works with either 2K or 4K equipped cinemas.
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post #1145 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
SHVC could, for example, allow the main/core encoded layer to be 1080p/8-bit while the extension layer(s) could add the extra information to bring the resolution up to UHD or for increased bit depths, etc. The simpler codec used by for digital cinema does something similar where the main layer has 2K resolution and the extension adds the additional info bring it up to 4K. In this case the extension layer requires a much lower data rate to increase the resolution from 2K to 4K. This is done because most commercial cinemas still have 2K projectors while 4K is still rolling out. The same data source works with either 2K or 4K equipped cinemas.
But would it really be prudent to start with a 1080p layer? One would imagine you're buying a new UHD player and UHD discs to play 2160p content, wouldn't one?

I can see it for UHD video color gamut and/or bit depth because some older UHD's cannot support the upper level features.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1146 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
But would it really be prudent to start with a 1080p layer? One would imagine you're buying a new UHD player and UHD discs to play 2160p content, wouldn't one?

I can see it for UHD video color gamut and/or bit depth because some older UHD's cannot support the upper level features.
I did say "for example". Blu-ray UHD probably won't start with 1080p but perhaps some other distribution methods using SHVC might go that route.

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post #1147 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 06:33 PM
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Hi,


For those interested by HDR, HEVC v2, HDMI 2.0, Blu-Ray 4K, ultra HD in general, let me submit you that link to the most comprehensive existing article in French. Please note it's very long to read (but also very informative) and please forgive me for the imperfect taduction due to google because i not feel the courage to translate myself.


https://translate.google.fr/translat...t_141366_1.htm


Regards.
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post #1148 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As I understand it, ...

MV-HEVC is the 3D equivalent for h265 of MVC for h264, which what is used to encode 3D blurays in full quality. So 3D Blurays use MVC, 3D 4K Blurays will use MV-HEVC.

Hi Manni,


MV-HEVC also allow two UHD signals to pass for mutli viewing ( game application ). That is related to the next Display port 1.3 spécifications.


Regards.
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post #1149 of 1233 Old 08-18-2014, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safe91 View Post
Hi,


For those interested by HDR, HEVC v2, HDMI 2.0, Blu-Ray 4K, ultra HD in general, let me submit you that link to the most comprehensive existing article in French. Please note it's very long to read (but also very informative) and please forgive me for the imperfect taduction due to google because i not feel the courage to translate myself.


https://translate.google.fr/translat...t_141366_1.htm


Regards.
Extremely informative. Something I was looking for over the weekend. Looks like 10Gbps will be all we need for 4k BD. Hopefully that's true, so all the members with a 4k Sony projector can take full advantage of 4k BD

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post #1150 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 08:10 AM
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Found this in another thread but thought I would post it here since this seems to be the most active thread I have seen on 4K blu ray. I know things can still change but they certainly seem to point to 4K blu ray in 2015.

http://www.avforums.com/news/4k-ultr...med-2015.10665
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post #1151 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 08:15 AM
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And here are comments from the BDA's Victor Matsuda:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...s-2015-1264317
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post #1152 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 08:57 AM
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Everything I've heard points to what the article says as well. Announcements at CES with holiday 2015 roll out. 100GB discs, slightly higher bitrates than BD, 10-bit 4:2:0 and most likely a P3 colorspace (for now). Also heard the first generation will be a stop gap with a higher quality (HDR and more) due later (similar to the phases stuff we've seen before from the UHD camps).
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post #1153 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 08:59 AM
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And here are comments from the BDA's Victor Matsuda:

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/tel...s-2015-1264317
Yes!
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post #1154 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 09:03 AM
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Everything I've heard points to what the article says as well. Announcements at CES with holiday 2015 roll out. 100GB discs, slightly higher bitrates than BD, 10-bit 4:2:0 and most likely a P3 colorspace (for now). Also heard the first generation will be a stop gap with a higher quality (HDR and more) due later (similar to the phases stuff we've seen before from the UHD camps).
Great... now we will have to double dip within the life cycle of a single television standard. I doubt anyone will be up for 8k after this. 10 bit 4:2:0... that's lousy. Even sub-$2,000 consumer mirrorless cameras (like the GH4) can do 10 bit 4:2:2 at even Cinema DCI 4k resolution!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1155 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 09:13 AM
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Great... now we will have to double dip within the life cycle of a single television standard. I doubt anyone will be up for 8k after this. 10 bit 4:2:0... that's lousy. Even sub-$2,000 consumer mirrorless cameras (like the GH4) can do 10 bit 4:2:2 at even Cinema DCI 4k resolution!
Maybe so, but I get the feeling the way things are out there...BDA has a very short time window to meet and if it's not met, 4K blu is not coming. They've got to get it out there soon, or else we're stuck with 4K-lite streaming (no better than 1080p Blu) for who knows how long.

I'll take the 4K Blu compromises and eventual upgrades over living with the current alternatives forever.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Everything I've heard points to what the article says as well. Announcements at CES with holiday 2015 roll out. 100GB discs, slightly higher bitrates than BD, 10-bit 4:2:0 and most likely a P3 colorspace (for now). Also heard the first generation will be a stop gap with a higher quality (HDR and more) due later (similar to the phases stuff we've seen before from the UHD camps).
If true, that means the only thing current 4K TV's are lacking that would be needed to match the capabilities of 4K/UHD Blu-Ray phase1 (at least for 24p films) is support for P3 color space. My understanding is that most can already accept a 2160p24, 10 bit, 4:2:0 signal and are only required to drop down to 8 bit when the frame rate is pushed to 50/60 fps. Also, I believe the Sony 4K projectors already handle DCI P3 color space in addition to Adobe RGB and Rec 709. So, current owners should be good to go if all of this is true.
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http://www.avforums.com/news/4k-ultr...med-2015.10665

encouraging... not putting any stock in it until the players are on shelves.


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post #1158 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 10:18 AM
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Yep! More 4K Blu ray news is coming in all over the place!

http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/1307...christmas-2015 "as early as September 2015." ???!!!!

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-xmas-201409053901.htm

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=14923

Guess that 4K projector can wait till next year
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post #1159 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 10:23 AM
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If true, that means the only thing current 4K TV's are lacking that would be needed to match the capabilities of 4K/UHD Blu-Ray phase1 (at least for 24p films) is support for P3 color space. My understanding is that most can already accept a 2160p24, 10 bit, 4:2:0 signal and are only required to drop down to 8 bit when the frame rate is pushed to 50/60 fps. Also, I believe the Sony 4K projectors already handle DCI P3 color space in addition to Adobe RGB and Rec 709. So, current owners should be good to go if all of this is true.
Correct. And also the reason I said that true 4K projectors aren't really a concern until next CEDIA and why I'll happily wait until then.

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post #1160 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 10:36 AM
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Good news ! It will be interesting to see this unfold.

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Guess I better start saving/planing to finally upgrade my Planar 8150. Maybe I should try and find one of those DC4 chips to make mine a Planar 8170 in the mean time

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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Yep! More 4K Blu ray news is coming in all over the place!

http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/1307...christmas-2015 "as early as September 2015." ???!!!!

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-xmas-201409053901.htm

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=14923

Guess that 4K projector can wait till next year
Interesting. Both the CNet and Pocket-lint articles indicate that they plan to use existing 50 GB discs (at least in the beginning), just with HEVC encoding. They specifically mention the possibility of reading the disc at up to 100 Mbps in order get the quality desired, which seems like it should be enough to deliver 4 times the detail without significant compression artifacts. However, by my math, if a movie actually utilizes that 100 Mbps bit rate and runs 90 minutes then it would take up 67.5 GB, which is more than the capacity of a single disc. So, either, the average bit-rate will be closer to 75 Mbps (which should still be adequate for most films) or they will need to store movies on two discs.
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4K Blu-ray discs arriving in 2015 to fight streaming media

Those who want movies with the very highest quality will be keen on 4K Blu-ray's better resolution, color, and dynamic range. Yet millions seem happy with streaming video, despite its shortcomings.

  • September 5, 2014 8:32 AM PDT

Blu-ray Disc Association BERLIN -- Much of the world is shifting to streaming video delivered over the Internet, but don't count out optical discs just yet.
The Blu-ray Disc Association is most of the way done defining a version of its optical disc technology that can handle high-resolution 4K imagery, the group said Friday at the IFA electronics trade show here. It will start licensing the technology in the spring or summer of 2015, and the first 4K Blu-ray players should arrive by the holiday-shopping season of that year, said Victor Matsuda, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association global promotions committee.


Using physical media instead of relying on fallible and often limited Internet connections means Blu-ray discs can provide the best possible image quality, he said. But there's more to 4K Blu-ray than just four times the number of pixels as in today's prevailing 1080p video, he added.


The new specification also will improve color gamut dramatically and offer a higher dynamic range so details in shadows and highlights are visible. The new format also will be able to show 4K video at 60 frames per second, he said.


"The packaged media and that enclosed, stable environment -- that's part of being the best of the best," Matsuda said.
It's not clear exactly now much of the market wants the best of the best, though: people have flocked to streaming services despite difficulties with bandwidth and image quality. With services from Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Google, and others, people can watch the video they want immediately rather than having leave the house to get a disc. And subscription services offer access to a library of titles so people can watch as much as they want -- and try new TV shows or movies without having to decide whether it's worth the per-show price tag.


Streaming media is also becoming more convenient with players from Apple, Roku, Amazon, and Google. As of the second quarter of 2014, 17 percent of Internet-connected households have streaming-media players, NPD Group said.


But Matsuda believes a lot of the world will continue to use optical discs. Blu-ray is a force to be reckoned with. In the US, 72 million households -- about 62 percent -- had a Blu-ray player of some sort in 2014, according to the Digital Entertainment Group. Many people move to new technology slowly, and outside the US, there's another lag of six to 12 months.
Format changes that offer better quality are often a pain for consumers -- especially those who pick the wrong one, as was the case when the Betamax videotape format famously lost out to VHS, or when HD DVD lost out to Blu-ray. Consumers don't have to worry so much about formats with streaming media.


The new format works on existing Blu-ray discs with 50GB capacity, said Ron Martin, vice president of Panasonic's Hollywood lab and a member of the Blu-ray Association's task for for next-generation Blu-ray development. It stores data in a different way, though, moving from the H.264/AVC (Advanced Video Coding) compression technology to the newer H.265/HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) successor. HEVC takes more processing to use when encoding videos but compresses them more compactly -- or alternatively viewed, lets more pixels be sent across a given amount of data-transfer capacity.


The new 4K Blu-ray drive players will be able to extract data from discs at a rate of 50 or 60 megabits per second, and perhaps up to 100Mbps, Martin said. "That's roughly double the current Blu-ray," he said. Doubled data-transfer rates plus doubled compression efficiency means the new technology will be able to handle the quadrupled pixels required moving from 1,920x1,080 pixels to 3,820x2,160 pixels.
The new technology also will get updated digital rights management (DRM) technology for preventing unauthorized copying, Matsuda said.


Although 4K Blu-ray doesn't require larger disc capacity, they would benefit from it -- and that's something else the association is working on. "The roadmap says we have the capability to do that -- to increment to 66GB or maybe 100GB. those things are under study," Martin said.


For each frame of 4K Blu-ray video, the association expects significant image-quality improvements. Many experts are skeptical that people watching TV at ordinary TV viewing distances have sharp enough vision to tell the difference between today's 1080p HD video and 4K video -- also called Ultra HD or UHD. Matsuda, though, believes he can based on side-by-side comparisons, and certainly the TV industry is gradually moving that direction.


Matsuda and Martin expect other improvements than in spatial resolution, though. First is better dynamic range. The 4K format will increase the bit depth for each pixel from 8 to 10, meaning that a greater range between bright and dark can be recorded for video that's been produced to take advantage of that.



Currently, "with fireworks or flashbulbs or looking at the sun, you get the level of brightness as with anything else white in the scene," Martin said. "Now we have 100 percent more signal range to capture those highlights to make a visible difference."


Second is a broader range of colors. A new color-recording technology called BT.2020 allows a wider gamut, Martin said.
"The existing 709 color encoding system shows 30-35 percent of the visual color spectrum," Martin said. BT.2020 can "render about 70-80 percent. As TVs migrate you'll be able to detect those colors," he said. Blu-ray players will be able to detect BT.2020 support and use the better color gamut if it's available, but today's TVs don't yet have the feature, he said.


The Blu-ray contingent has one more advantage on its side, too: Hollywood. Consumers who've bought copies of the same movie in VHS, DVD, and Blu-ray aren't necessarily going to buy another version in Blu-ray 4K, and movie studios aren't necessarily going to go to the trouble of remastering existing movies to take full advantage of the new format. But for new movies, already often produced in 4K versions, the decision to support the format is a lot easier.


The Blu-ray Disc Association counts big studios as board members, including Disney, Warner, Fox, and Sony -- which makes both Blu-ray players and runs its Sony Entertainment studio. Also members of the association are Lionsgate, Universal, and Paramount.


"At one level or another all Hollywood is on board," Matsuda said.
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post #1164 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 11:16 AM
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If true, that means the only thing current 4K TV's are lacking that would be needed to match the capabilities of 4K/UHD Blu-Ray phase1 (at least for 24p films) is support for P3 color space. My understanding is that most can already accept a 2160p24, 10 bit, 4:2:0 signal and are only required to drop down to 8 bit when the frame rate is pushed to 50/60 fps. Also, I believe the Sony 4K projectors already handle DCI P3 color space in addition to Adobe RGB and Rec 709. So, current owners should be good to go if all of this is true.
Only the VW1x00 handles P3/DCI thanks to a filter. This filter isn't present in the 500ES and 300ES, therefore they can't display P3. They claim DCI compatibility as well, but it's only because the panels have true 4K resolution, not because they can support the DCI gamut (P3).

Only the new Epson laser with eshift (so no true 4K panels) seems to be able to support a P3 gamut as well. I can't think of another consumer projector at this stage that does.


I'm very disappointed with the 10 bits 4:2:0, and the P3 doesn't make much sense.


I also wonder if the pixel resolution will be true 4K (which would make sense with P3) or UHD.


4K 12 bits 422 P3 with a mechanism to scale down to whatever the device supports, say UHD 10 bits rec-709 for most, makes sense.


UHD 10 bits 420 rec 709 to make sure stage 1 is compatible to the widest possible user base makes sense (even if it's disappointing).


It really feels like a hybrid let down, probably due to the very limited storage space on BDXL (100Gb for now).


I'm curious to hear how they will convert to rec-709 for the large majority of displays which can't support P3, if that's the gamut selected.


I certainly won't buy many 4K blurays with these specs unless there is a real visible difference with upscaled bluray, which I doubt.

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post #1165 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 11:22 AM
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I think the title of CNet's article shows a lack of understanding for how the real world works. They make it sound like physical and internet delivery methods are locked in some sort of battle to determine a supreme victor with the loser being eliminated alla Highlander "There can be only one!"

That's not true. The arrival of a physical delivery method for 4K content will be a boon to 4K streaming services as it will drive more people to purchase 4K sets, who wouldn't have otherwise. In turn, these people will almost certainly try out some of the 4K streaming services. HD streaming wouldn't exist today without 1080p Blu-Ray. And UHD/4K streaming will benefit greatly from the addition of a larger potential consumer base, as a result of 4K Blu-Ray. It's a win, win.
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post #1166 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 11:59 AM
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A little OT but by moving to the country I've learned the hard way how important high speed internet is. We're lucky to get 5mbs DSL & there's no prospect for anything better in the near future (7mbs seems to be the minimum for HD). One wonders why anyone would pay $8 to stream a 720P movie anyway, but they do. They must not care about PQ.

"Simple. Get 15mbs from satellite providers", you say. Well, satellite providers limit data usage (unless you're willing to pay through the nose for it) & video uses tons of data.

My point is streaming video isn't an option for 50% of the country so it will never replace disc media. I'm glad to hear 4K Blu-ray IS coming. I hope they can settle on standards & not delay the launch.
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post #1167 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 12:18 PM
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A little OT but by moving to the country I've learned the hard way how important high speed internet is. We're lucky to get 5mbs DSL & there's no prospect for anything better in the near future (7mbs seems to be the minimum for HD). One wonders why anyone would pay $8 to stream a 720P movie anyway, but they do. They must not care about PQ.

"Simple. Get 15mbs from satellite providers", you say. Well, satellite providers limit data usage (unless you're willing to pay through the nose for it) & video uses tons of data.

My point is streaming video isn't an option for 50% of the country so it will never replace disc media. I'm glad to hear 4K Blu-ray IS coming. I hope they can settle on standards & not delay the launch.

Especially when you can buy a Blu Ray on sale for $ 10 - $ 14 if you wait a little while. I've bought some for as little as $ 5.00 new!! Black Friday sales week is just around the corner !!
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post #1168 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 12:24 PM
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BDA wants REC 2020, Hollywood wants P3 (they already have the masters for it). Plus the other issues with 2020 (no displays that support, perception issues from person to person) create other issues they don't want to deal with. The resolution will be UHD, not DCI 4K. From my sources, it will support triple layer BD (100 GB) but that will probably be on a title by title basis (like dual layer now). 10 bit 4:2:0 for color resolution. BT 1886 for gamma AFAIK, but we'll see.

Obviously none of this is set in stone, this is just what my inside source is saying, and he is rarely if ever wrong on this stuff. But he says they are still going back and forth and the delay has to do with everyone deciding on something and the BDA (CE companies) and studios are not seeing eye to eye.
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post #1169 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 12:31 PM
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One wonders why anyone would pay $8 to stream a 720P movie anyway, but they do. They must not care about PQ.
I don't agree with this completely. For one, it is FAR more convinient to watch a movie streaming than having to go buy it, especially on an impulse. Another thing is the quality of the display. I have a 65" VT50 plasma from Panasonic in my family room. I still about 10-12 feet back from it at a minimum where my couches are. If I stream from Vudu at 720p (HD not HDX) it looks fine. Resolution isn't the issue I notice, it is banding or compression artifacts; and these typically only crop up in darker areas of the image. But I'm a picky bastard. My wife never says a word and I'd say she is more of an average consumer. We here at AVS live in a bubble and the average joe or jane isn't even close to our demands or quibbles. If I stream HDX on my plasma it is almost indistinguishable from Blu-ray with brighter content (blacks still have banding and compression issues from time to time). I have VERY good bandwidth at home for internet (about 50mbps average) so streaming from Apple, Netflix or Vudu usually looks more the acceptable from normal person standards. I would much rather watch Blu-ray in my theater room but I can completely understand why the general public would be fine with what I see downstairs, whether I like it or not.

If I try to do even Vudu HDX in my theater room on my 120" projection screen, it looks bad and a far cry from Blu-ray regardless of what I'm watching.

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post #1170 of 1233 Old 09-05-2014, 12:36 PM
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So, having a good ideal of what 4K BD will bring, is it good to say the 4K Sony projectors are good enough to take full advantage of them? I know maybe not 4K broadcast. If they are, it looks like they will lose much value anyways being only able to support 4K movies in the upcoming years.
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