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post #91 of 1244 Old 09-12-2013, 03:38 PM
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Couldn't care less. Sony will put the licensing fee so high for third party mfgs for their first 24 months worth of 4k Blu-Ray offerings that retail discs will come in at $44.95...or higher. Rediculous. Damn things are going to be as high as an Xbox/PS4 game soon...

Until cable/satellite make the switch to 50%+ of their channel lineups in native 4k, it's a technology best served for early adopters with little discipline and money to burn.
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post #92 of 1244 Old 09-12-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako88888 View Post

Until cable/satellite make the switch to 50%+ of their channel lineups in native 4k, it's a technology best served for early adopters with little discipline and money to burn.

Hey, I resemble that remark, Jack! biggrin.gif Not really, on either count; just more cheerful and optimistic about the subject. wink.gif
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post #93 of 1244 Old 09-12-2013, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

For screen sizes over 50" 4K will show a big improvement in PQ and I wonder how you can comment on 4K BD when it is not out on the market yet? I heard the same arguments when HD DVD and BD came out that it would not make any difference on smaller screens, but it was wrong then and it is wrong now. And it took many years for BD to make a hit in the masses, and still DVD has a bigger marked share world wide. But of corse in the beginning 4K will be an enthusiast format just as HD DVD and BD was, but to say it will not show any perceived difference on most screens is wrong. I was at IFA this weekend and there was several 1080p and 4K screens side by side and at normal sizes around 55" and the 4K screens was noticably better.
I have tested alot with the VW1000 with 1080p upscaled and 4K native and 1080p upscaled with RC is very close to 4K, but it is also alot better than normal 1080p. And what is also important is that the 4K I have seen is very early material and I am shure it will evolve just like 1080p has since it vas launched in 2006.

And streaming is not for people with quality in mind.

I've seen a demo of 4K(?) vs. 1080p on two 60" screens. There was a quality difference in favour of 4K(?), but nothing like 1080p vs. 480p. Personally I'm not going to rush into 4K(?).
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post #94 of 1244 Old 09-12-2013, 05:16 PM
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I just don't see 4k being a big difference compared to 2K, like DVD (480p) to blu ray (1080p). I hope it does though
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post #95 of 1244 Old 09-12-2013, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I've seen a demo of 4K(?) vs. 1080p on two 60" screens. There was a quality difference in favour of 4K(?), but nothing like 1080p vs. 480p. Personally I'm not going to rush into 4K(?).


You would rush in like water filling a valley from a breached dam if the price was the same as your present projector. smile.gif

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post #96 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You would rush in like water filling a valley from a breached dam if the price was the same as your present projector. smile.gif
I thought this thread was related to distribution format, not display devices? And why would one jump to 4K just because of price? Are you saying a 4K Seiki TV bests a 1080p Panasonic?
What makes the current good 4K devices great are a lot of other factors than just their 4K resolution.

But for the sake of the argument. Everything else being equal. Same price. 1080p to 4K on my 106 inches. Id eventually upgrade, but I still wouldnt rush.

Everything isnt equal though and Im looking to get a VW500 this coming winter. And Im proud to say, ill be watching netflix and 720p tv shows. smile.gif
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post #97 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:22 AM
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I am not saying the difference will be as big as BD is to DVD, but there is and will be a major difference.

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post #98 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:41 AM
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I think the major difference will be do to the display being 4K rather than the source being 4K. my gut feeling is that there will be little difference between a high quality 1080p transfer scaled by the Sony to UHD and a UHD source, even one shot in 4K. Of course if the UHD source is 10 or 12 bit and a wider color space than rec 709 then my prediction would change. the larger the screen the more apparent the source difference but for small screens (any below10ft in width) the difference in PQ qill be small based on the source rather than display resolution.

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post #99 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

but there is and will be a major difference.
This sentence has no meaning so long you leave screen size out. But sub 10ft, you`d be wrong. Or we define "major" differently.
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post #100 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

This sentence has no meaning so long you leave screen size out. But sub 10ft, you`d be wrong.

No, Ballis I am not wrong about that. I have the VW1000 and have tested alot with 4K and I was at IFA last weekend together with Didrik and we saw alot of 4K TV´s in smaller sizes and the difference is significant, but you are clearly negative to 4K and I don´t know why. So I suggest you keep your 1080p and let others enjoy 4K when it comes.smile.gif

And if you are interested I suggest you come over to me toghether with Didrik in the near future and we can see toghether what Didrik and I am seeing.cool.gif

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post #101 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 01:57 AM
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The 4k displays use different internals, panels, and optics due to the smaller pixels (for TV's and projectors), so I don't see how can compare "resolution" by comparing a 4k display to a 1080p display, you would need to compare 1080p master re-sampled cleanly to 4k (a perfect scale) on the same display to a native 4k on the same display watching the same content in A/B.
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post #102 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I think the major difference will be do to the display being 4K rather than the source being 4K. my gut feeling is that there will be little difference between a high quality 1080p transfer scaled by the Sony to UHD and a UHD source, even one shot in 4K. Of course if the UHD source is 10 or 12 bit and a wider color space than rec 709 then my prediction would change. the larger the screen the more apparent the source difference but for small screens (any below10ft in width) the difference in PQ qill be small based on the source rather than display resolution.

Thats exactly what I said earlier that the display would be the difference. Its like saying a $700 1080p projector will perform the same as or close to a Lumis with the same content. I'm sure when 4K display prices comes down, cheaper components will be put into them, and they will not rival a Sony 1000ES.
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post #103 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 12:29 PM
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I am really impressed that your knowledge has advanced to the point where you agree with me. Keep up the good work. smile.gif

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post #104 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 12:47 PM
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I am really impressed that your knowledge has advanced to the point where you agree with me. Keep up the good work. smile.gif

Thank you biggrin.gif
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post #105 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 02:23 PM
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I think may here will benefit, specially those who view closer than 1.5 screen widths.......tangeble benefits in the projection world, however not so sure in the direct display arena, unless sets become 100" plus.

Good to see 4K disks becoming a reality......till internet speed soars!

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post #106 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 02:36 PM
 
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I think people claiming you can't tell the difference unless your 6ft away or closer, or if the 4K set is 100" or bigger, are full of S.

I've seen multiple 55" 4K displays running native 4K content and the difference is very obvious to me even at 10+ft away. They showed some scenes from Total Recall that were stunning. One scene in particular that showed the city with all the lights and buildings, was way better than anything I've ever seen before. The amount of detail was insane.
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post #107 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by RexHarrison View Post

I think people claiming you can't tell the difference unless your 6ft away or closer, or if the 4K set is 100" or bigger, are full of S.

I've seen multiple 55" 4K displays running native 4K content and the difference is very obvious to me even at 10+ft away. They showed some scenes from Total Recall that were stunning. One scene in particular that showed the city with all the lights and buildings, was way better than anything I've ever seen before. The amount of detail was insane.

They claim 140in and bigger to see the difference. Of course, we hope that's not true
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post #108 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 03:25 PM
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Once again we are taking source resolution, not display resolution. There is no question that a 4K display resolution looks dramatically better. The 10 ft wide for source resolution was based on film industry professions trying to discern differences and work flow errors.

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post #109 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 03:37 PM
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Source resolution>Display resolution>Visual Acuity>Viewing distance/angle.

From certian distances UHD will be indistinguisable from HD on the same sized display........ smile.gif


Simulation


One is 2 x the horizontal source resolution than the other....from close up easy to see the increase, but move back and the difference dissappears




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post #110 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

For those bragging about Blu-ray sales...

The Blu-ray gains were largely offset by declining sales of standard DVDs, though; when DVD and Blu-ray sales are combined, the total spending on physical discs was up only 2 percent in the quarter.

Streaming was up roughly 51%. Of course as more hardware supports Blu-ray it will eat into DVD sales. Not adding revenues rather replacing them at best. Heck I think at times my local Fry's sells them for less. On their site there is over 500 Blu-rays at $6.99 or less (20,000 DVDs versus 6,000 Blu-rays)... many at a buck or two. If demand was there I'm guessing this pricing wouldn't be.

This is one of my issues. Blu-ray hasn't come close to replacing DVDs (yet) and you expect another change to makes things better. It just causes more confusion to a large degree. Perhaps even hurting the current adoption rate. Again what is the demand for 3D versus UHD? I can almost count the number of 3D titles they have in my head.

Sure, who doesn't want a better format... I think everyone does. But to say streaming isn't taking over the world and up to now Blu-ray has been a success (on a mainstream level) pretty much requires blue colored glasses.

Whatever about bragging about BD sales. Facts don't lie. It's a successful format.

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post #111 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Source resolution>Display resolution>Visual Acuity>Viewing distance/angle.

From certian distances UHD will be indistinguisable from HD on the same sized display........ smile.gif

"Cry" all you want, but the Industry will push 4K to consumers no matter what !

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post #112 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 07:33 PM
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Ya, they will simply stop making 2K like in the case of CRT TVs and leave us with no choice. Hopefully with economy of scale we can have affordable 4K. smile.gif
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post #113 of 1244 Old 09-13-2013, 07:35 PM
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"Cry" all you want, but the Industry will push 4K to consumers no matter what !

No doubt........hence their push for larger displays....they already realise that consumers won't see the difference with current TV sizes viewed from current viewing ratios/distances.

Bigger displays or sit closer......doubt folks would be willing to rearrange the furniture...to suit the dispaly

I expect to see 50" 4K PC monitors soon.

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post #114 of 1244 Old 09-15-2013, 05:49 AM
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Anyone know if they plan to combine 4k with 3d, or is it only one or the other?
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post #115 of 1244 Old 09-15-2013, 07:03 AM
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Sorry for not reading the entire thread.

But, are you guys seriously debating if you will see the difference with 4k content on a 4k display? Got to a Best Buy and check out the 4K demo on the Sony 65" I was about 6 feet away and was AMAZED at how much better it looked. The best way to describe it would be like watching 3D but without the glasses and light loss, etc. The image popped off the screen, and was the most realistic and three dimensional picture I've seen on a display.

Now I sit around 8 feet from my 110" so I can only imagine how amazing a 4k image will look at that size. biggrin.gif

As for upscaled looking nearly as good as true 4k content? I don't buy that unless we are reaching a limitation on FILM transfers and film simply doesn't have enough information to make a major difference from 2k to 4k, but anything shot at 4k native (RED) should be a huge difference. You are getting 4 times the amount of information and that should be clearly visible. I think anything thats been shot on 4K digital will look amazing. Tooo many variables with film transfers.....
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post #116 of 1244 Old 09-15-2013, 07:05 AM
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Anyone know if they plan to combine 4k with 3d, or is it only one or the other?

4K 3D is supported, but only at 24hz mad.gif

Forget about the Hobbit or any other movies shot at 48fps or possibly 60fps in the future (Avatar sequels)
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post #117 of 1244 Old 09-15-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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4K 3D is supported, but only at 24hz mad.gif

Forget about the Hobbit or any other movies shot at 48fps or possibly 60fps in the future (Avatar sequels)

I'm hoping the HDMI 2.0 spec. and the upcoming Blu-ray update will, in addition to the 4K related capabilities, also add support for 1080p 3D at up to 60Hz. That would at least offer the choice of viewing high frame rate movies in either 4K @ 24Hz or 1080p @ up to 60Hz. It's my understanding that The Hobbit for the HFR presentations was shown in theaters at 4K @ 48Hz for 2D but for 3D it was at 2K resolution.

Since HDMI 2.0 supports up to 18 Gbps let's do a little math to see how much 4K requires:

First remember that HDMI video information that has already been decoded that can be bit-for-bit displayed. In the worst case (i.e., with sRGB format or YCbCr with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling), when we talk about 8-bit color depth that is 24 bits total per pixel to convey the full color information. Likewise for 10-bit color depth that is actually 30 bits per pixel and for 12-bit color depth that is actually 36 bits per pixel.

For 4K resolution (actually 3840 x 2160 pixels) video at 60Hz the worst case data rate required to just convey the bit mapped image information (not including any data headers, digital audio, or anything else) is:

8-bit color depth:
3840x2160x24x60 = 11.044 Gbps

10-bit color depth:
3840x2160x30x60 = 14.930Gbps

12-bit color depth
3840x2160x36x60 = 17.916Gbps

So as you can see 4K can be very demanding in terms of bandwidth when you are using a 60Hz refresh. At 30Hz all of the above total Gbps would be cut by 50% and at 24Hz these number would be reduced by 60%. Also using other than 4:4:4 chroma subsampling will reduce the data rate at the expense of chroma (i.e., color) resolution.

I still have not seen specific details as to what bit depths and chroma subsampling types HDMI 2.0 supports at 4K resolution when operating at 24Hz, 30Hz, 48Hz, 50Hz, and 60 Hz


.
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post #118 of 1244 Old 09-15-2013, 12:00 PM
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It's my understanding that The Hobbit for the HFR presentations was shown in theaters at 4K @ 48Hz for 2D but for 3D it was at 2K resolution.
The Hobbit was only shown in HFR ~2K 3D at a limited number of cinemas.

No 4K ~2D or HFR ~ 2D was made of The Hobbit.............yet.
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post #119 of 1244 Old 10-03-2013, 07:07 AM
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I think the bit depth will set at 10 bit to meet Rec2020 minimal requirements.
But what chroma subsampling will they choose ? 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 ?
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post #120 of 1244 Old 10-07-2013, 08:38 AM
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The Hobbit was only shown in HFR ~2K 3D at a limited number of cinemas.

No 4K ~2D or HFR ~ 2D was made of The Hobbit.............yet.

Correct. The Hobbit: AUJ was NOT finished at 4K, either flat or stereo or HFR, and I don't think that's changing for the next one. Heck, 4K 3D isn't part of the official DCI specs at the moment, AFAIK.
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