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post #1171 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
So, having a good ideal of what 4K BD will bring, is it good to say the 4K Sony projectors are good enough to take full advantage of them? I know maybe not 4K broadcast. If they are, it looks like they will lose much value anyways being only able to support 4K movies in the upcoming years.
Re bluray 4K everything except the gamut if it's P3. Only the VW1x00 supports P3 with a filter (which induces a lumens loss). Not the 500ES or 600ES.
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post #1172 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 03:47 PM
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I've run the 1100 with the filter on, I could live with the reduced output in my setup.

This is great news in general! I like collecting media as is evident from my ridiculously large (and somewhat useless) laserdisc collection.
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post #1173 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I've run the 1100 with the filter on, I could live with the reduced output in my setup.

This is great news in general! I like collecting media as is evident from my ridiculously large (and somewhat useless) laserdisc collection.

Considering that not everything is not on Blu Ray yet, I'm guessing I'll be collecting disks and still transitioning from Blu Ray to 4K Blu Ray when I hit 70 years old at this rate ( I'm 58 now ) !

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post #1174 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Re bluray 4K everything except the gamut if it's P3. Only the VW1x00 supports P3 with a filter (which induces a lumens loss). Not the 500ES or 600ES.
If you keep the light source constant and increase the intensities of the red and green dichromatic filters to move the saturations to the locations for P3, you will reduce the light output similarly to the insertion mechanically of a yellow filter as is done in the 1000/1100ES,

If you widen the color space and want to keep the same lumens out you need a stronger light source or one with a different spectrum (such as LEDs) more towards those locations.i

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post #1175 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Considering that not everything is not on Blu Ray yet, I'm guessing I'll be collecting disks and still transitioning from Blu Ray to 4K Blu Ray when I hit 70 years old at this rate ( I'm 58 now ) !
I know there's been a lot of arguing about streaming vs. physical media. I'm from the old school. I pay for something, I have something in my hand. I can bring it to a friends house and watch it. Lend it to someone, etc. The irony is that I rip all digital content to a 20TB NAS and store my media in a safe location so my family doesn't destroy it.. but I still have it and that's the important part.

Go 4K BD!!
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post #1176 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I know there's been a lot of arguing about streaming vs. physical media. I'm from the old school. I pay for something, I have something in my hand. I can bring it to a friends house and watch it. Lend it to someone, etc. The irony is that I rip all digital content to a 20TB NAS and store my media in a safe location so my family doesn't destroy it.. but I still have it and that's the important part.

Go 4K BD!!

Screw streaming. Skyfall and Oblivion ( and similar top quality mastered Blu Rays - see the remastered version of Gladiator too ) look so good now, 4K Blu Ray has to be an entire step above that. I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done ( I'm optimistic )!


I like having a library where I can pull old favorites out every year or so and re-watch them with my movie loving friends. Always have. Plus, I always have the perfect wine to pull out of the cellar !
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post #1177 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Screw streaming. Skyfall and Oblivion ( and similar top quality mastered Blu Rays - see the remastered version of Gladiator too ) look so good now, 4K Blu Ray has to be an entire step above that. I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done ( I'm optimistic )!
Well they're pushing/spec-ing higher bit depths and wider gamut so I'm optimistic too

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1178 of 1244 Old 09-05-2014, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Re bluray 4K everything except the gamut if it's P3. Only the VW1x00 supports P3 with a filter (which induces a lumens loss). Not the 500ES or 600ES.

I think we can be pretty sure Sony will be introducing its 2015 updated vw600 to display the new UHD standards, as well as JVC finally for a true 4K machine. But just imagine what a DLP 3 chipper 4K, like Sims, would look like incorporating all the new 4K standards with reference 4K BR...I said imagine, because at its likely cost, most of us will only be able to do that.
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post #1179 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
If you keep the light source constant and increasethe intensities of the red and green dichromatic filters to move the saturations to the locations for P3, you will reduce the light output similarly to the insertion mechanically of a yellow filter as is done in the 1000/1100ES,

If you widen the color space and want to keep the same lumens out you need a stronger light source of one with a different spectrum such as LEDs more towards those locations.i
When did I say it can be achieved with UHP lamps without a lumens loss ? I was only correcting a few people who assumed that all the 4K sony models would support P3, which isn't true but caused by Sony claiming DCI compatibility even on the lower models, forgetting to say that it's only resolution wise and not gamut wise, and reminding that even on the vw1x00, this p3 compatibility had a cost in lumens which means that depending on each setup not everyone will be able to achieve it practically without a dimmer picture which might be out of specs (drop below 12-14fL) if they have a large screen or a unity/low gain/AT screen.

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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
I think we can be pretty sure Sony will be introducing its 2015 updated vw600 to display the new UHD standards, as well as JVC finally for a true 4K machine. But just imagine what a DLP 3 chipper 4K, like Sims, would look like incorporating all the new 4K standards with reference 4K BR...I said imagine, because at its likely cost, most of us will only be able to do that.
I'm sure that next year's model(s) will support HDMI 2.0a (and P3 if that's required for bluray 4K), but this year it's the new epson or the vw1x00 for now as far as P3 is concerned.

I'm hoping JVC comes up with an hdmi 2.0b, hdcp 2.2 and p3 compliant model this year. In my setup, I honestly don't care about 4K resolution or e-shift but I care about everything else.

We'll find out next week

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post #1180 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I've run the 1100 with the filter on, I could live with the reduced output in my setup.

This is great news in general! I like collecting media as is evident from my ridiculously large (and somewhat useless) laserdisc collection.
Hi zombie,

What is the lumens loss on the vw1100, in percentage, when the p3 filter is engaged and the unit is calibrated to P3?

That might help users to evaluate whether they can take the lumens drop or not.

You have a HP screen with a 2.4 or 2.8 gain (forgot which), so I'm sure you'll be fine even on your 142" diag behemoth!

If your screen had a lower gain, or if Mark's snowmatt unity gain screen was larger, you both might not be able to engage the P3 filter and get 12-14 fL or more at the same time.


Regarding collecting media, I would buy bluray 4K mastered at 12 bits 422, but at 10 bits 420 not so much as a double dip will soon be required...

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post #1181 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 01:55 AM
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The more I read about the possible specs. for the first "4k" Blu-ray's... the less I like what I'm hearing. UHD with limited upgrades on a 50 GB disc?? That's truly pushing a point... don't they know this has to look great on larger TV's and projectors too in order to get anyone interested? 100 GB is cutting it thin as is. It seems to be almost purposefully limited in scope. 10 bit 4:2:0 video can still have banding. They should have at least gone to 4:2:2.

The BDA sounds like it's a year late and $20 short.
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post #1182 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
BDA wants REC 2020, Hollywood wants P3 (they already have the masters for it). Plus the other issues with 2020 (no displays that support, perception issues from person to person) create other issues they don't want to deal with. The resolution will be UHD, not DCI 4K. From my sources, it will support triple layer BD (100 GB) but that will probably be on a title by title basis (like dual layer now). 10 bit 4:2:0 for color resolution. BT 1886 for gamma AFAIK, but we'll see.

Obviously none of this is set in stone, this is just what my inside source is saying, and he is rarely if ever wrong on this stuff. But he says they are still going back and forth and the delay has to do with everyone deciding on something and the BDA (CE companies) and studios are not seeing eye to eye.
Thanks a lot for sharing this insider info and for confirming the UHD res.


Have you noticed that in the CNET article linked above by imgEL http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/ the Panasonic guy mentions BT2020, not P3, and says that the players will be able to detect if the displays handles such gamut and make use of it?

This is interesting on two points.

First BT2020 would make more sense than P3 if the res. is UHD and not 4K. I'd say that 4K/P3 makes sense, UHD/BT2020 also, but UHD/P3 makes little sense. Do they crop the P3 master or do they scale it to fit the smaller UHD res? Neither is ideal, so I'd prefer 4K/P3 personally, at least we could make use of the 1.89:1 4K panels on the 4K Sony PJs. I'd love to replace my 16/9 screen by a 19/10 one to make use of that and get smaller black bars. That would be a good compromise for me between 2.35 and 1.78.

Second it would mean that no consumer display available currently or in the near future can take advantage of the larger gamut, unless they have a delivery mechanism in place to adapt to P3 as well as rec709. Also rec709 and rec2020 share the same D65 white point so it would make it much easier to switch between the two, while P3 has a different white point which a slight calibration hassle.

It would be interesting to find out more about this if your source is reachable .


EDIT: One last thing that would be interesting is if there is any support for 21/9, which is part of the HDMI 2.0 specs.

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post #1183 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The most troubling thing about the latest "official" announcements, coming out of IFA, about Blu-ray UHD is the mid-2015 date to have the spec. complete. The last "official" statement came about 6 months ago and at that time the schedule was to complete the spec. by the end of 2014. So over the past 6 months the schedule has slipped by 6 months. However, one glimmer of hope was one statement that the mid-2015 date would be to have both the spec. and the licensing package ready, and not just the spec.


On the technical side, if what Kris is hearing in correct, then it seems to me that the first generation of Blu-ray UHD will be too dumbed down with only 4:2:0 and 10-bit depth. I would have hoped for at least DCI P3 colorspace, 4:2:2 and the option for either 10-bit or 12-bit depths for 24Hz material (since this is what the movie studios are already working with). Hopefully those within the BDA technical working group will listen to those members pushing for the higher quality formats. I would expect the spec. to place a burden on the player to adapt the UHD output to what the display can support, as long as the display meets certain minimum requirements, such as Rec. 709, 4:2:0 and 8-bit depth and having a HDMI 2.0 input with HDCP 2.2.
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post #1184 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 08:01 AM
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I don't agree with this completely. For one, it is FAR more convinient to watch a movie streaming than having to go buy it, especially on an impulse. Another thing is the quality of the display. I have a 65" VT50 plasma from Panasonic in my family room. I still about 10-12 feet back from it at a minimum where my couches are. If I stream from Vudu at 720p (HD not HDX) it looks fine. Resolution isn't the issue I notice, it is banding or compression artifacts; and these typically only crop up in darker areas of the image. But I'm a picky bastard. My wife never says a word and I'd say she is more of an average consumer. We here at AVS live in a bubble and the average joe or jane isn't even close to our demands or quibbles. If I stream HDX on my plasma it is almost indistinguishable from Blu-ray with brighter content (blacks still have banding and compression issues from time to time). I have VERY good bandwidth at home for internet (about 50mbps average) so streaming from Apple, Netflix or Vudu usually looks more the acceptable from normal person standards. I would much rather watch Blu-ray in my theater room but I can completely understand why the general public would be fine with what I see downstairs, whether I like it or not.

If I try to do even Vudu HDX in my theater room on my 120" projection screen, it looks bad and a far cry from Blu-ray regardless of what I'm watching.
My CIH screen is 130" dia so I was thinking of 720P PQ on that not being all that great... especially @ $8. 720P isn't bad on smaller screens. And, your right; "average joe or jane" probably couldn't tell the difference anyway.

BTW - I always look forward to reading your reviews over at S&V.
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post #1185 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
The most troubling thing about the latest "official" announcements, coming out of IFA, about Blu-ray UHD is the mid-2015 date to have the spec. complete. The last "official" statement came about 6 months ago and at that time the schedule was to complete the spec. by the end of 2014. So over the past 6 months the schedule has slipped by 6 months. However, one glimmer of hope was one statement that the mid-2015 date would be to have both the spec. and the licensing package ready, and not just the spec.


On the technical side, if what Kris is hearing in correct, then it seems to me that the first generation of Blu-ray UHD will be too dumbed down with only 4:2:0 and 10-bit depth. I would have hoped for at least DCI P3 colorspace, 4:2:2 and the option for either 10-bit or 12-bit depths for 24Hz material (since this is what the movie studios are already working with). Hopefully those within the BDA technical working group will listen to those members pushing for the higher quality formats. I would expect the spec. to place a burden on the player to adapt the UHD output to what the display can support, as long as the display meets certain minimum requirements, such as Rec. 709, 4:2:0 and 8-bit depth and having a HDMI 2.0 input with HDCP 2.2.
Thanks Ron. That's my sentiment exactly, and it's nice not to be alone .
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post #1186 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DERG View Post
My CIH screen is 130" dia so I was thinking of 720P PQ on that not being all that great... especially @ $8. 720P isn't bad on smaller screens. And, your right; "average joe or jane" probably couldn't tell the difference anyway.

BTW - I always look forward to reading your reviews over at S&V.
Thanks! A few more will be published there soon but after that you'll find my articles at Secrets. I left Sound and Vision this month.

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post #1187 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 08:37 AM
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The best of luck in your switch.
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The best of luck in your switch.


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post #1189 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 10:16 AM
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Thanks! A few more will be published there soon but after that you'll find my articles at Secrets. I left Sound and Vision this month.
Good luck
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post #1190 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! A few more will be published there soon but after that you'll find my articles at Secrets. I left Sound and Vision this month.
I also want to add good luck with the new job. Will you be a CEDIA? If so how about meeting up with the other AVS members that are coming to the CEDIA After Hours Party on Thurs. night at the convention center.

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post #1191 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 10:51 AM
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Looks as if 4:2:2 at 12 bits will be what 4K BD will end up with at the max and 10Gbps is all it will require at 24hz. Personally, I would be satisfied with a JVC or Sony that only have hdmi 2.0 at 10Gbps. When or if they ever do broadcast in 4K and need the full 18Gbps, I would want a DLP for sports that and gaming too. I have really grown to love the DLP look. So, bring on 4K. Too bad we won't have 4K 3D anytime soon.
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post #1192 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 10:56 AM
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Looks as if 4:2:2 at 12 bits will be what 4K BD will end up with at the max and 10Gbps is all it will require at 24hz. Personally, I would be satisfied with a JVC or Sony that only have hdmi 2.0 at 10Gbps. When or if they ever do broadcast in 4K and need the full 18Gbps, I would want a DLP for sports that and gaming too. I have really grown to love the DLP look. So, bring on 4K. Too bad we won't have 4K 3D anytime soon.
The spec as talked about was listed as 10 bit 4:2:0. Not good enough in my book.

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post #1193 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:05 AM
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I guess we'll have to see for ourselves in only 14 short months..

some of the 4K content I've seen on the VW1100 looks remarkable and is far from ideal on the specs, I'm still looking forward to seeing what they come up.


edit: @ Manni, this weekend I'll try to get some lumen measurements with the filter on. My lamp has less than 200 hours and is still performing like new so it should give some insight.
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post #1194 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:12 AM
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No word about firm commitment from Hollywood on content.

The studios being on the BDA is no guarantee that they'll ramp up releases of titles to coincide with availability of players.

Sales of packaged media has flatlined (at best) by now? I would like to think there is a big enough market for PQ but if the streaming services get reliability and pricing right, that may be too much of an obstacle.


If they want to try to entice some consumers, they'll get rid of all the Java stuff that makes discs take too long to load. And BD-I bombed so they might as well get rid of that too.
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post #1195 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:13 AM
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The spec as talked about was listed as 10 bit 4:2:0. Not good enough in my book.
Some said they are transitioning to higher specs. Either way, anything better than currently is a plus for me. I seen some BD that looks phenomenal and I can't see them looking better. So, us getting a chance to see better, I'm done for that.
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post #1196 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:14 AM
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I guess we'll have to see for ourselves in only 14 short months..

some of the 4K content I've seen on the VW1100 looks remarkable and is far from ideal on the specs, I'm still looking forward to seeing what they come up.


edit: @ Manni, this weekend I'll try to get some lumen measurements with the filter on. My lamp has less than 200 hours and is still performing like new so it should give some insight.
If I remember correctly the filter takes away about 50%...

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post #1197 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Some said they are transitioning to higher specs. Either way, anything better than currently is a plus for me. I seen some BD that looks phenomenal and I can't see them looking better. So, us getting a chance to see better, I'm down for that.
However, a 50 GB disc is not what I would consider a good delivery platform. Too much compression is the bane of any video technology.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1198 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 11:19 AM
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1080p Blu-Ray has 25GB or 50GB discs. If 4K Blu-Ray has 50GB or 100GB discs, that's just fine with me. Those 50GB discs would only be used for short movies, or they would split longer movies on 2 discs. Maybe 100GB discs could be hard to produce in the beginning. The same was true for 50GB when 1080p Blu-Ray was introduced. I'm more worried about bitrate than capacity.
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post #1199 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
1080p Blu-Ray has 25GB or 50GB discs. If 4K Blu-Ray has 50GB or 100GB discs, that's just fine with me. Those 50GB discs would only be used for short movies, or they would split longer movies on 2 discs. Maybe 100GB discs could be hard to produce in the beginning. The same was true for 50GB when 1080p Blu-Ray was introduced. I'm more worried about bitrate than capacity.
Bitrate and data storage capacity go hand in hand. Plus, how many discs have been "Superbit" with high bitrates and no extras taking up space right out of the gates? They won't split up movies to two discs unless they're super long (like LOTR Extended, Cleopatra, 10 Commandments, etc.). They didn't do it with Blu-ray even when some of the movies should have been (like the Dances With Wolves extended cut) and I doubt they'll start now.

Be careful of what you wish for because you might just get it.

They should have at least started with a 100 GB disc and higher video standards (I doubt the audio standards will change much except for the inclusion of at least Atmos) that can be adjusted downward if need be depending on the display. As of right now, we'll have to double or even triple dip titles and buy even newer UHD players yet again later on since they want to do a staged rollout. About the dumbest thing they could do. The market is on pins and needles as it is.
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Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 09-06-2014 at 12:17 PM.
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post #1200 of 1244 Old 09-06-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
If I remember correctly the filter takes away about 50%...
If confirmed by Zombie this would be pretty bad news (especially for Mark and his Snowmatte ). I was conservatively thinking 20-30%.


Zombie, thanks for offering to measure the lumens drop. Please make sure if at all possible that your measurements are not only with the filter engaged but after calibrating to P3, especially the white point (which should be set AFAIK to D55 for film content, not D65 as for rec709). Ideally the gamut set to the P3 targets as well, as each calibration step will likely drop more lumens (I don't know how much, depends how close the filter gets you).


And don't worry about the age of the lamp, what's interesting is the delta between filter on calibrated to P3-D55 / filter off calibrated to rec 709-D65(we'll need both numbers). The delta should be similar irrespective of lamp age.

Last edited by Manni01; 09-06-2014 at 03:47 PM.
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