Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 1233 Old 09-06-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The more I read about the possible specs. for the first "4k" Blu-ray's... the less I like what I'm hearing. UHD with limited upgrades on a 50 GB disc?? That's truly pushing a point... don't they know this has to look great on larger TV's and projectors too in order to get anyone interested? 100 GB is cutting it thin as is.

Relax. You're still thinking in AVC terms. HEVC will be the codec used and it doesn't require as much bitrate for a UHD picture.


I speculate they will start with 50GB discs and ramp up from there to 66/100/120GB. Not every film requires that much space. The supplements will probably still be the same 480i SD ones we get today on standard Blu-ray.

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post #1202 of 1233 Old 09-06-2014, 04:01 PM
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Relax. You're still thinking in AVC terms. HEVC will be the codec used and it doesn't require as much bitrate for a UHD picture.


I speculate they will start with 50GB discs and ramp up from there to 66/100/120GB. Not every film requires that much space. The supplements will probably still be the same 480i SD ones we get today on standard Blu-ray.
But they won't be able to ramp up the quality of the discs and the players if they intend to improve the video specs. a little at a time. We'll be double and triple dipping on discs and players! And HEVC is only about 20-25% more efficient real-world vs. MPEG-4. It's not a magic bullet codec like MPEG is trying to make people believe.

It should have been started at a higher level and then the displays could play catch up, but the best quality is still on the same disc (and they should have started with 100 GB discs to make it happen). This is how Atmos works. One soundtrack on the same disc can be 5.1.4 up to 24.1.10. HEVC was recently outfitted with core+extension in order to facilitate such a thing on the video side. Instead, the BDA seems to be working at the low end of the scale first.
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post #1203 of 1233 Old 09-06-2014, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If confirmed by Zombie this would be pretty bad news (especially for Mark and his Snowmatte ). I was conservatively thinking 20-30%.


Zombie, thanks for offering to measure the lumens drop. Please make sure if at all possible that your measurements are not only with the filter engaged but after calibrating to P3, especially the white point (which should be set AFAIK to D55 for film content, not D65 as for rec709). Ideally the gamut set to the P3 targets as well, as each calibration step will likely drop more lumens (I don't know how much, depends how close the filter gets you).


And don't worry about the age of the lamp, what's interesting is the delta between filter on calibrated to P3-D55 / filter off calibrated to rec 709-D65(we'll need both numbers). The delta should be similar irrespective of lamp age.

Its my understanding that while movie film used 5500K color temp, Digital Cinema (DCI P3) allows 4 different color spaces, including D65, with D61 perhaps being the most common. The DCI spec states: "The peak luminance as shown in the transfer function equation is 52.37 cd/m2. The extra headroom is reserved to accommodate a range of white points including D55, D61 and D65, while still supporting the reference white luminance of 48 cd/m2 as specified in SMPTE 196E for Digital Cinema-Screen Luminance Level, Chromaticity and Uniformity."


The bottom line appears to be that the BDA could define use of DCI P3 D65 if they want to.
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post #1204 of 1233 Old 09-06-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Its my understanding that while movie film used 5500K color temp, Digital Cinema (DCI P3) allows 4 different color spaces, including D65, with D61 perhaps being the most common. The DCI spec states: "The peak luminance as shown in the transfer function equation is 52.37 cd/m2. The extra headroom is reserved to accommodate a range of white points including D55, D61 and D65, while still supporting the reference white luminance of 48 cd/m2 as specified in SMPTE 196E for Digital Cinema-Screen Luminance Level, Chromaticity and Uniformity."


The bottom line appears to be that the BDA could define use of DCI P3 D65 if they want to.
Thanks Ron.

So which white point do you suggest Zombie calibrates to for this experiment? D55 or D65? D55 is greener, so I would expect there would be less light loss than with D65, but I might be wrong. It all depends on the filter.

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post #1205 of 1233 Old 09-06-2014, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks Ron.

So which white point do you suggest Zombie calibrates to for this experiment? D55 or D65? D55 is greener, so I would expect there would be less light loss than with D65, but I might be wrong. It all depends on the filter.

I would keep it at D65 as that's my guess as to what the BDA will pick for Blu-ray UHD (but that's only a guess, but since it's allowed under DCI P3 and current BDs use D65 than why change it for BD UHD).

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post #1206 of 1233 Old 09-07-2014, 12:33 AM
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I would keep it at D65 as that's my guess as to what the BDA will pick for Blu-ray UHD (but that's only a guess, but since it's allowed under DCI P3 and current BDs use D65 than why change it for BD UHD).
Thanks Ron, so lets keep D65, I agree it makes more sense, as long as P3 is one of the supported fallback colorspaces if the spec is bt2020, as suggested by the BDA member from panasonic hollywood's lab in the CNET article.

We really need to find out what's the standard and what the supported fallback modes are. In the article, he seemed to imply it was rec709 until the player detects a rec2020 compatible display. P3 wasn't mentioned as an option.

If all three are supported it makes sense to make them all share the same white point, if only to simplify calibration.
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post #1207 of 1233 Old 09-07-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
But they won't be able to ramp up the quality of the discs and the players if they intend to improve the video specs. a little at a time.
Have you been following the Sony FMP-X10 owners thread? The UHD content road appears to be real bumpy at this time. As to H.265, for the same PSNR H.265 appears to have about a 35% data usage advantage over H.264.


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post #1208 of 1233 Old 09-07-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Have you been following the Sony FMP-X10 owners thread? The UHD content road appears to be real bumpy at this time. As to H.265, for the same PSNR H.265 appears to have about a 35% data usage advantage over H.264.
If the industry can't get out of their own way and come to a mutually beneficial decision on UHD's future... it may not have one. This is ridiculous! It's basically a format war every time something new comes out.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1209 of 1233 Old 09-07-2014, 02:20 PM
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post #1210 of 1233 Old 09-08-2014, 08:15 PM
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Bill Hunt's take on 4K Blu.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...ts/090814_1530
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post #1211 of 1233 Old 09-08-2014, 08:28 PM
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Yup.

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post #1212 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 03:42 AM
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No matter what, I will be OK. I am getting way over 12/14 ft lamberts now. I will look for my meter and measure at rec 709 d65 and at P3 at various white temperatures. But I don't care. If I cared, I could get DCI feeds now and a DCI projector with a DCI server. If I could afford, I stil wouldn't do it because I just don't watch that many movies.

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post #1213 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 09:57 AM
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Yes this is great 4K Blu Ray will be available mid 2015.

So it's not worth buying a 4K projector or TV yet as the new specs for 4K BR are so much better!

BDA has confirmed that a 4K Blu-ray format will support not just 4K resolution, but also

- HDR (high-dynamic range): HDR will improve details in the very dark shadows and very bright scenes,

- 10-bit color: 10-bit color depth will improve color gradation and reduce color problems such as banding.

- Rec.2020 color gamut: It will allow movie producers to reproduce around 75% of the colors that they human eye is capable of seeing, compared to around 30-35% of today’s Rec.709 standard used for HD content. Rec.2020 is even wider than the color gamut utilized in movie theaters, but no TVs or projectors can reproduce the Rec.2020 color gamut yet.

The format will also support HFR (high frame rate) up to 60 frames per second in 4K, but reportedly not HFR of 120 fps and above.
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post #1214 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 10:02 AM
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yes this is great 4k blu ray will be available mid 2015.

So it's not worth buying a 4k projector or tv yet as the new specs for 4k br are so much better!

Bda has confirmed that a 4k blu-ray format will support not just 4k resolution, but also

- hdr (high-dynamic range): hdr will improve details in the very dark shadows and very bright scenes,

- 10-bit color: 10-bit color depth will improve color gradation and reduce color problems such as banding.

- rec.2020 color gamut: it will allow movie producers to reproduce around 75% of the colors that they human eye is capable of seeing, compared to around 30-35% of today’s rec.709 standard used for hd content. Rec.2020 is even wider than the color gamut utilized in movie theaters, but no tvs or projectors can reproduce the rec.2020 color gamut yet.

The format will also support hfr (high frame rate) up to 60 frames per second in 4k, but reportedly not hfr of 120 fps and above.
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post #1215 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 11:01 AM
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Thanks! A few more will be published there soon but after that you'll find my articles at Secrets. I left Sound and Vision this month.
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes this is great 4K Blu Ray will be available mid 2015.

So it's not worth buying a 4K projector or TV yet as the new specs for 4K BR are so much better!

BDA has confirmed that a 4K Blu-ray format will support not just 4K resolution, but also

- HDR (high-dynamic range): HDR will improve details in the very dark shadows and very bright scenes,

- 10-bit color: 10-bit color depth will improve color gradation and reduce color problems such as banding.

- Rec.2020 color gamut: It will allow movie producers to reproduce around 75% of the colors that they human eye is capable of seeing, compared to around 30-35% of today’s Rec.709 standard used for HD content. Rec.2020 is even wider than the color gamut utilized in movie theaters, but no TVs or projectors can reproduce the Rec.2020 color gamut yet.

The format will also support HFR (high frame rate) up to 60 frames per second in 4K, but reportedly not HFR of 120 fps and above.
The article you posted in the 300ES thread says "Up to Rec 2020 color gamut" so is it not yet confirmed 100% that Rec 2020 is the color gamut being used? Personally I'd rather them use P3. Are we 100% sure Sony's SXRD and JVC's DILA panels can even do Rec 2020 to it's full extent? It just seems like an easier conversion from the DCI master to keep it at P3.
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post #1217 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 12:04 PM
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I've been reading the "Bits" since it began in the late '90s. Bill has a very insightful view based on his firsthand experience with studios that spans over 16-17 years. But, I'd like to remind everyone that lasedisc was a format, too. Few places sold them & only specialty shops rented them. Yet, they they were produced & people who wanted quality, sought them.

Bill mentions only a few people have bought into 4k. Well, with sets ranging from $3k to $25k, few actual 4k programs available, no OTA broadcast & the ever changing equipment requirements that make these sets obsolete in a year- who could blame them?

Time will tell but UHD Blu-ray is a step in the right direction. But, to push it over the top UHD needs full support from broadcasters (especially sports) & full support from cable & satellite providers. Until that happens it will be a niche format.
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post #1218 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes this is great 4K Blu Ray will be available mid 2015.

So it's not worth buying a 4K projector or TV yet as the new specs for 4K BR are so much better!

BDA has confirmed that a 4K Blu-ray format will support not just 4K resolution, but also

- HDR (high-dynamic range): HDR will improve details in the very dark shadows and very bright scenes,

- 10-bit color: 10-bit color depth will improve color gradation and reduce color problems such as banding.

- Rec.2020 color gamut: It will allow movie producers to reproduce around 75% of the colors that they human eye is capable of seeing, compared to around 30-35% of today’s Rec.709 standard used for HD content. Rec.2020 is even wider than the color gamut utilized in movie theaters, but no TVs or projectors can reproduce the Rec.2020 color gamut yet.

The format will also support HFR (high frame rate) up to 60 frames per second in 4K, but reportedly not HFR of 120 fps and above.
Don't know where you're getting this data. It won't be mid-2015 it will be holiday 2015. HDR most likely won't be in the initial spec and REC 2020 is doubtful at best.

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post #1219 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 01:38 PM
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Don't know where you're getting this data. It won't be mid-2015 it will be holiday 2015. HDR most likely won't be in the initial spec and REC 2020 is doubtful at best.
I agree. Rec. 2020 is most likely not going to be used. I think P3 fits the bill better. It's less work and money for movie studios to use P3. Most displays out there can't even do REC.2020. I also think REC. 2020 won't be used because this means that the consumer format will have something better than it's commercial counterpart. When has that ever happened in the consumer video world?
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post #1220 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 02:35 PM
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Plus it's supposedly only 10 bit 4:2:0. Why it can't be at least 4:2:2 is anyone's guess.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1221 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 05:45 PM
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Don't know where you're getting this data. It won't be mid-2015 it will be holiday 2015. HDR most likely won't be in the initial spec and REC 2020 is doubtful at best.
I don't know about mid-2015, everything I've read says the licensing will be ready then with products for holiday 2015, but as fro Rec 2020, I think that's from here:
http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/
""The existing 709 color encoding system shows 30-35 percent of the visual color spectrum," Martin said. BT.2020 can "render about 70-80 percent. As TVs migrate you'll be able to detect those colors," he said. Blu-ray players will be able to detect BT.2020 support and use the better color gamut if it's available, but today's TVs don't yet have the feature, he said."

Apparently that's from "Ron Martin, vice president of Panasonic's Hollywood lab and a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association's task for for next-generation Blu-ray development"

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Most displays out there can't even do REC.2020.
Most TVs can't do P3 either.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #1222 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 05:53 PM
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I don't know about mid-2015, everything I've read says the licensing will be ready then with products for holiday 2015, but as fro Rec 2020, I think that's from here:
http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/
""The existing 709 color encoding system shows 30-35 percent of the visual color spectrum," Martin said. BT.2020 can "render about 70-80 percent. As TVs migrate you'll be able to detect those colors," he said. Blu-ray players will be able to detect BT.2020 support and use the better color gamut if it's available, but today's TVs don't yet have the feature, he said."

Apparently that's from "Ron Martin, vice president of Panasonic's Hollywood lab and a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association's task for for next-generation Blu-ray development"


Most TVs can't do P3 either.
What I mean is that the panels/micro-displays themselves aren't actually capable for REC. 2020. Any LED TV, Plasma TV, and most current 1080p projectors are actually more than capable of doing P3 in their native gamut. Though, at the current time most of these devices don't give you access to the native gamut or an option to use/calibrate for P3. With that said, the native gamut for most of these devices is much smaller than REC. 2020. So with firmware updates or just giving us a new option on upcoming devices, P3 should be no problem.

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post #1223 of 1233 Old 09-09-2014, 06:42 PM
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REC 2020 is HUGE even compared to P3:





Even my latest LED projector (Runco LS-1000D) couldn't do Rec 2020 in it's native (largest) gamut:



A lot of green, blue, and yellow aren't included in the native gamut that REC 2020 would require.
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post #1224 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 06:56 AM
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So this is a good thing and a bad thing for the blu-ray industry.

Good being better specs/better overall PQ.

Bad being people may delay actual buying blu-ray disks and/or blu-ray playback devices until they can get the 4k spec ones.....

I for one will take a hard look at my future blu-ray intended purchases and really dial them back, possible rent only via redbox ... till Holiday 2015 then hopefully 4k....of course the Q of premium pricing for 4k blu-rays vs 2k blu-rays will come up....if so that will kill/hasten adoption....

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post #1225 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 07:04 AM
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That strategy of delaying until XMAS 2015 might work for purchases of new releases but it will take years for 4K versions of old movies to be issued. It took years for the conversion of the catalog of much of DVD releases to get on Bluray.

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Quote:
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I don't know about mid-2015, everything I've read says the licensing will be ready then with products for holiday 2015, but as fro Rec 2020, I think that's from here:
http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/
""The existing 709 color encoding system shows 30-35 percent of the visual color spectrum," Martin said. BT.2020 can "render about 70-80 percent. As TVs migrate you'll be able to detect those colors," he said. Blu-ray players will be able to detect BT.2020 support and use the better color gamut if it's available, but today's TVs don't yet have the feature, he said."

Apparently that's from "Ron Martin, vice president of Panasonic's Hollywood lab and a member of the Blu-ray Disc Association's task for for next-generation Blu-ray development"


Most TVs can't do P3 either.
Getting displays that can do P3 will be far easier and more realistic than 2020 any time in the near future. And as I've mentioned before, the CE companies want 2020 because of the perception. Hollywood wants P3, 2020 is nearly impossible to master to and it would now mean they are doing at least 3 different color masters for every movie. Now given who provides the movies which do you think will ultimately find its way to your disc?

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post #1227 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 07:15 AM
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Mark - I bought a Canon 70D 4 months ago, it's got newest version of crop sensor, what color space does that shoot in?

I looked at the specs and all it says is
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consum...Specifications
Quote:
Color Space
sRGB, Adobe RGB
This talk of color space goes thru the whole food chain of visual devices then; cameras, display, printers, smartphones, ......

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post #1228 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 07:26 AM
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Photography is indeed one of my primary hobbies. Wildlife photography mainly. And I have been waiting years for a replacement for my Nikon D200. The now discontinued Nikon D300 was not enough of an upgrade to warrant a replacement then.

there are indeed many color spaces and you could indeed create your own. the two you cited are indeed color spaces, though bigger than what we use now in HT, rec 709.

For purposes of home theater, we are mainly concerned with the color space of the source material, the ability of the source player to output that space, and the ability of the display to reproduce that space. Then we get into such things as the chroma subsampling that the source material is stored with and the bit length. The concepts are not easy to completely understand and we tend to want all the numbers and spaces to be as big as possible. This unfortuntely costs lots of bandwidth and this is limited by technology and economics.

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post #1229 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Getting displays that can do P3 will be far easier and more realistic than 2020 any time in the near future. And as I've mentioned before, the CE companies want 2020 because of the perception. Hollywood wants P3, 2020 is nearly impossible to master to and it would now mean they are doing at least 3 different color masters for every movie. Now given who provides the movies which do you think will ultimately find its way to your disc?
The P3 color space is what we will get at the start of our 4k blu-ray adventure/jaunt but hopefully the rec 2020 color space will be adopted now and used as time goes by. The ITU, the body responsible for recommending the rec 2020 standard are not fools and would seem to be looking at the long term future rather than what Hollywood is currently able to supply. Whilst DCI P3 is a nice improvement over rec 709 it is still only approx. 45 -55 % of the total visible color space, depending how that is calculated.

It is better, IMO, to adopt a high standard now and gradually grow into it rather than adopt only a small improvement which will become a limitation in 5-10 years. 720p and 1080i have quickly become limitations, it would have been better from the start if 1080p was required so everyone involved in the chain knew what they needed to aim for.

Standards set now should not compromise clearly foreseeable future technological changes, they should be broad enough to encompass them, IMO.

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post #1230 of 1233 Old 09-10-2014, 08:33 AM
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That strategy of delaying until XMAS 2015 might work for purchases of new releases but it will take years for 4K versions of old movies to be issued. It took years for the conversion of the catalog of much of DVD releases to get on Bluray.
Also, I think it is unlikely that we will see 3D4K any time soon. So, as long as they offer a 4K disc only and/or 4K disc + 4K digital copy purchasing option when 4K Blu-Ray arrives, it should be safe to purchase whatever 3D movies you wish to for the next few years as they will not be directly replaced. It will be interesting to see how many people choose to watch 2D 4K Blu-Ray over 3D 2K Blu-Ray and whether or not they purchase one or both.

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