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post #1261 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 02:39 PM
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I remember the D-VHS copy of Alien looking amazing for the time period. much better than the original LD. the tech was ahead of it's time, people weren't ready yet for HD versions of movies in ~2002-2004.
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post #1262 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Manni01. I am getting a feeling that players and source material might not make it in 2015. The Bluray forum guy stated "may". Cigars again?

Certainly not. I myself believe that Bluray 4K might not make it at all. Given what recently happened to Sony, who knows what's going to happen with this.
In other words I'll believe it when I see it.


You should treasure these cigars I sent you, they represent the last bet I took and will ever take here.

I'm too often wrong to take that kind of risk, and you helped me realise it.


For that, I'm very grateful .
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post #1263 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I remember the D-VHS copy of Alien looking amazing for the time period. much better than the original LD. the tech was ahead of it's time, people weren't ready yet for HD versions of movies in ~2002-2004.

I remember a lot of people during that time on the forums arguing DVD was all that was needed.

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post #1264 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 03:25 PM
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I remember the advent of color TV being the end all and there was no discussion 9in person or in print) of the color limitations of rec 601. The vast majority of consumers think their current sets are not color deficient in any way.


Yesterday, my wife and I saw Into the Woods. I sat there and thought boy are the colors of red and yellow so different than red and green in my HT. There was no Atmos but the theater was Atmos. Disney movie. there was one scene however where sound came from the ceiling speakers. branches cracking overhead. The sound tracked the positioning of those singing on screen. blacks were gray. 4K added nothing I could see from mid theater. A lot of poorly done blue screen stuff that was very obvious.

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post #1265 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I remember a lot of people during that time on the forums arguing DVD was all that was needed.
And on a sort of similar note, I have cringed through many years of reading comments on this forum, and even from professional reviewers, that black levels are now "good enough." I've seen those comments for the last decade or so, since not long after flat panels came out. I'm always thinking "noooo, don't say that, this is no time to settle, we have so much further to go still." I still feel that even owning this year's JVC projector.
(Though now that OLED is here, I suppose I can finally grant that claim some credence for that display type).
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post #1266 of 2607 Old 12-26-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
....
(Though now that OLED is here, I suppose I can finally grant that claim some credence for that display type).
But are we ever going to having OLED screens, or tvs, that are 12 ft wide?
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post #1267 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 05:25 AM
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But are we ever going to having OLED screens, or tvs, that are 12 ft wide?
even if you did, they would have to be multi-panel construction most people can't get a device that big into their house.
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post #1268 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
even if you did, they would have to be multi-panel construction most people can't get a device that big into their house.
Not to mention front projection (especially lcos) just has a very natural, cinematic 'look' to it that cannot be captured on any flat panel - including OLED despite its ultimate contrast and blacks.

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post #1269 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 06:30 AM
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David. I don't get the natural look of front projection at all. I think front projection can duplicate and better at home what one sees at a commercial movie theater. Is that natural? Now cinematic means what? 24 fps P3 2.39. The industry is changing the look of cinematic. Its just a matter of time that cinematic is improved. HFR HDR Most movies are watched today on a flat panel. the size can range from phone screen size to about 80 inches. Where the median or mean is I don't know but I would guess around 42 inches. If you define cinematic as what you would see at a decent cinema. then true you need a FP and a screen. But that could be a large panel. Turn the contrast down, sit close and install a good multi channel ss system.

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post #1270 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 07:35 AM
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There was no Atmos but the theater was Atmos. Sony movie.
According to the IMDb, ITW is a Disney movie.
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post #1271 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 07:41 AM
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Internet connectivity: (required for some 4K/UHD disc titles due to copyright management requirements)
Sure hope this does not come to pass, BDA should have learned from MS and the XBox One. I have internet but I resent having to have a connection to view a physical disc that I have purchased.
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post #1272 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Sure hope this does not come to pass, BDA should have learned from MS and the XBox One. I have internet but I resent having to have a connection to view a physical disc that I have purchased.
Yeah, I hope they remember DIVX, and that there's a strong pushback from the community if they try to push this online authentication BS.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1273 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 08:00 AM
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An industry professional told me several weeks ago that we can expect announcements on hardware at CES. Manufacturers need a new source of revenue now that you can buy Sony Blu-Ray players for as little as $69, and grocery stores routinely have dozens of fairly recent titles on sale for $5. They will push the next generation players as a "must-have" in order to bring out the best in that new UHD TV you purchased over the holidays. By the way, pricing on UHD displays with HDMI 2.0 capability have dropped so low in just the last few weeks that purchasing a comparable 1080p set seem like a waste of money; despite being erroneously described by Brandsmart USA as having a resolution of 1920 x 1080, these two reportedly are true 3840 x 2160 displays per their manufacturer's spec sheets:

http://www.brandsmartusa.com/Polaroi...D+LED+HDTV.htm

http://www.brandsmartusa.com/Quasar/...HDTV.htm#specs
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post #1274 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
David. I don't get the natural look of front projection at all. I think front projection can duplicate and better at home what one sees at a commercial movie theater. Is that natural? Now cinematic means what? 24 fps P3 2.39. The industry is changing the look of cinematic. Its just a matter of time that cinematic is improved. HFR HDR Most movies are watched today on a flat panel. the size can range from phone screen size to about 80 inches. Where the median or mean is I don't know but I would guess around 42 inches. If you define cinematic as what you would see at a decent cinema. then true you need a FP and a screen. But that could be a large panel. Turn the contrast down, sit close and install a good multi channel ss system.
I agree home front projection does improve than what is at the theater (especially in terms of contrast and blacks) but I am talking about the differences of how film looks projected versus on a flat panel. I watch nothing but Blu-ray movies on my FP set up (RS4810 and Stewart ST100 screen). A well mastered Blu-ray that is sourced from analog film looks like watching a clean 35 mm print on a good FP set-up. It does not even look "digital" or electronic. It has a very organic, analog look to it.

I watched the remastered Blu version of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly yesterday afternoon. It was a very good example to what I am referring. Now, this disc would still look excellent on a high quality flat panel which would have a lot more ansi contrast and brightness, but it does not take on the look of projection - that includes OLED. Nowadays I realize commercial theaters no longer even project with analog film and most movies are filmed digitally to my knowledge (and still can look excellent), but I'm talking within this context here. I used to own a Panasonic 65" VT60 plasma which many experts say is on par with the mighty Pioneer Kuro plasma. I currently own a Samsung plasma which is excellent, but none of them have the 'look' I am talking about in comparison to an excellent FP set-up...or at least to the same degree.


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post #1275 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
According to the IMDb, ITW is a Disney movie.

You are correct. I have corrected my post.. Thanks.

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post #1276 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
David. I don't get the natural look of front projection at all. I think front projection can duplicate and better at home what one sees at a commercial movie theater. Is that natural? Now cinematic means what? 24 fps P3 2.39. The industry is changing the look of cinematic. Its just a matter of time that cinematic is improved. HFR HDR Most movies are watched today on a flat panel. the size can range from phone screen size to about 80 inches. Where the median or mean is I don't know but I would guess around 42 inches. If you define cinematic as what you would see at a decent cinema. then true you need a FP and a screen. But that could be a large panel. Turn the contrast down, sit close and install a good multi channel ss system.
I agree home front projection does improve than what is at the theater (especially in terms of contrast and blacks) but I am talking about the differences of how film looks projected versus on a flat panel. I watch nothing but Blu-ray movies on my FP set up (RS4810 and Stewart ST100 screen). A well mastered Blu-ray that is sourced from analog film looks like watching a clean 35 mm print on a good FP set-up. It does not even look "digital" or electronic. It has a very organic, analog look to it.

I watched the remastered Blu version of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly yesterday afternoon. It was a very good example to what I am referring. Now, this disc would still look excellent on a high quality flat panel which would have a lot more ansi contrast and brightness, but it does not take on the look of projection - that includes OLED. Nowadays I realize commercial theaters no longer even project with analog film and most movies are filmed digitally to my knowledge (and still can look excellent), but I'm talking within this context here. I used to own a Panasonic 65" VT60 plasma which many experts say is on par with the mighty Pioneer Kuro plasma. I currently own a Samsung plasma which is excellent, but none of them have the 'look' I am talking about in comparison to an excellent FP set-up...or at least to the same degree.
Fully agree! I have a JVC X35 with an Isco II lens and a 21:9 screen. Got the Spielber Blu Ray box for christmas and were warching Duell, Sugarland Express and Jaws already over christmas. Gorgeous celluloid like picture. Don't think the films looked that good in the cinema back un the days.
I had a look at all Sony 4k projectors over the last 12 months and even though their general picture was quite inpressive I found them to 'digital' for my taste. I still find the JVC picture the most film like looking.
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post #1277 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I agree home front projection does improve than what is at the theater (especially in terms of contrast and blacks) but I am talking about the differences of how film looks projected versus on a flat panel. I watch nothing but Blu-ray movies on my FP set up (RS4810 and Stewart ST100 screen). A well mastered Blu-ray that is sourced from analog film looks like watching a clean 35 mm print on a good FP set-up. It does not even look "digital" or electronic. It has a very organic, analog look to it.

I watched the remastered Blu version of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly yesterday afternoon. It was a very good example to what I am referring. Now, this disc would still look excellent on a high quality flat panel which would have a lot more ansi contrast and brightness, but it does not take on the look of projection - that includes OLED. Nowadays I realize commercial theaters no longer even project with analog film and most movies are filmed digitally to my knowledge (and still can look excellent), but I'm talking within this context here. I used to own a Panasonic 65" VT60 plasma which many experts say is on par with the mighty Pioneer Kuro plasma. I currently own a Samsung plasma which is excellent, but none of them have the 'look' I am talking about in comparison to an excellent FP set-up...or at least to the same degree.
I'm kind of with Mark on this in that I really don't know what the "look" of film is any more.

I do know I prefer to watch a movie in our home vs. going to a commercial theater for both the visual experience and especially the audio even though our screen is only 120" wide. With perhaps a small discount to black levels I do prefer the "look" of DLP projection over any of the current JVC's or Sony's including the 4K's and the Samsung OLED panels that I have seen produce a picture that I would trade our Kuro for.

We recently went to see "INTERSTELLAR" at the Henry Ford IMAX in Dearborn, Michigan where "INTERSTELLAR" is being shown in 70MM film. I'm disappointed to say that some scenes or parts of this film looked just horrible on the big IMAX screen and I will look forward to see if this is "cleaned up" in the digital conversion for Blu-ray.
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post #1278 of 2607 Old 12-27-2014, 09:51 AM
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I'm kind of with Mark on this in that I really don't know what the "look" of film is any more.

I do know I prefer to watch a movie in our home vs. going to a commercial theater for both the visual experience and especially the audio even though our screen is only 120" wide. With perhaps a small discount to black levels I do prefer the "look" of DLP projection over any of the current JVC's or Sony's including the 4K's and the Samsung OLED panels that I have seen produce a picture that I would trade our Kuro for.

We recently went to see "INTERSTELLAR" at the Henry Ford IMAX in Dearborn, Michigan where "INTERSTELLAR" is being shown in 70MM film. I'm disappointed to say that some scenes or parts of this film looked just horrible on the big IMAX screen and I will look forward to see if this is "cleaned up" in the digital conversion for Blu-ray.

I had a DLP that I recently sold and I miss the DLP look. Since I will be going with a 10ft+ wide screen in less than a year, I decided to sell the 600 lumen LED DLP. Really hoping in the next two years, I can pull off a 4k JVC/Sony and 4K DLP.
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post #1279 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 10:27 AM
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Leading Hollywood studios, consumer electronics brands, content distributors, post-production and technology companies announced today the launch of the UHD (Ultra High Definition) Alliance

http://www.advfn.com/news_Hollywood-..._64985886.html
http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/5/749...e-uhd-ces-2015

"The UHD Alliance will set standards for 4K content"

Interesting, but no technical details so far...
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post #1280 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I've started my CES 2015 blog - link below. Biggest news so far is Panasonic has announced a Blu-ray 4K/UHD player (photo shown in press conference but no other info yet).



http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...home-theaters/
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post #1281 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 10:54 AM
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Panasonic Exhibits Prototype Of World's First(1) Next Generation Blu-ray Disc Player At CES 2015

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300015515.html

- 3,840 x 2,160 pixel
- 60p
- 10-bit
- BT.2020
- high dynamic range (1,000-10,000 nit)
- h265 @ 100Mbps

No word on chroma format, release dates, prices, etc.
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post #1282 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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They did? Must have missed it. Did they say anything about it at all?
They did - but it was mixed with the many other things being talked about and there was no further info. Perhaps the Panasonic press kit will have more info when it is posted, perhaps within the next few hours. I also expect Sony and/or Samsung to introduce Blu-ray 4K/UHD players during their press conferences later today.

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post #1283 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Panasonic Exhibits Prototype Of World's First(1) Next Generation Blu-ray Disc Player At CES 2015

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300015515.html

- 3,840 x 2,160 pixel
- 60p
- 10-bit
- BT.2020
- high dynamic range (1,000-10,000 nit)
- h265 @ 100Mbps

No word on chroma format, release dates, prices, etc.

Thanks Madshi, I'm really happy to see that they went all the way up to rec2020 for the gamut. Does anyone know which BDXL size the 100Mb/s refers to? They don't seem to mention capacity yet.


Re chroma format they announced 420 last summer.
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post #1284 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Panasonic Exhibits Prototype Of World's First(1) Next Generation Blu-ray Disc Player At CES 2015

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300015515.html

- 3,840 x 2,160 pixel
- 60p
- 10-bit
- BT.2020
- high dynamic range (1,000-10,000 nit)
- h265 @ 100Mbps

No word on chroma format, release dates, prices, etc.

From above...


The next generation Blu-ray Disc standards are being formulated by the Blu-ray Disc Association and have not yet been finalized. The technology to be adopted may change in the future.


I was hoping for a standard to be set so we could see models by spring/early summer but, with out a standard, we could be a long way away....or we could see "beta" devices hit that might not be upgradable to the final.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Windows Media Center specialist - MVP and Certified Home Theater specialist

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post #1285 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:30 AM
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Does anyone know which BDXL size the 100Mb/s refers to? They don't seem to mention capacity yet.
I'm not sure if there has to be any direct connection between size/capacity and bandwdith. E.g. you can spin 50GB discs faster to get more bandwidth.

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Re chroma format they announced 420 last summer.
Do you happen to have a link? I don't think I remember having read that yet.
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post #1286 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:47 AM
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Thanks Madshi, I'm really happy to see that they went all the way up to rec2020 for the gamut. Does anyone know which BDXL size the 100Mb/s refers to? They don't seem to mention capacity yet.


Re chroma format they announced 420 last summer.

100mb/s is the max bitrate for the encoding spec. It will be VBR up to 100mb/s. This number makes sense. They claim a 2x encoding efficiency by switching to HEVC H.265 and then adding double the bitrate potential helps because the resolution is much higher. Though as the resolution gets higher, in general, the encoder typically needs less of a bitrate to retain as transparent of an encode to the source as possible. This gives us plenty of headroom. If this was an official announcement from the BDA it would tell companies what to base their decoding hardware around. They'd know not to over design a decoding chipset/processor. In the end it tells them what to expect in terms of IPC power needed to decode the video. There's obviously more to it then just bitrate but that's a good starting point.

There was an official announcement that 420 was going to be used? I know REC2020 is better, but I would have liked to see P3 used instead. This just means there's more for studios to mess up. If you think about it, the director and DP spend a ton of time color grading for P3. The blu-ray release doesn't guarantee that the DP or director will okay the color grading done to bring it out to REC2020. Also, the question of how will they make the REC2020 version comes up. Will they make a new master from source material for this gamut or will they use the P3 master and simply move color points out? If the latter is done, especially if the DP and director aren't involved, it's no better in terms of color accuracy than REC709.

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post #1287 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
100mb/s is the max bitrate for the encoding spec. It will be VBR up to 100mb/s. This number makes sense. They claim a 2x encoding efficiency by switching to HEVC H.265 and then adding double the bitrate potential helps because the resolution is much higher. Though as the resolution gets higher, in general, the encoder typically needs less of a bitrate to retain as transparent of an encode to the source as possible. This gives us plenty of headroom. If this was an official announcement from the BDA it would tell companies what to base their decoding hardware around. They'd know not to over design a decoding chipset/processor. In the end it tells them what to expect in terms of IPC power needed to decode the video. There's obviously more to it then just bitrate but that's a good starting point.
Wasn't 100 Mb/s max for 66 GB discs and a little more for 100 GB discs?

I don't think we'll see working prototypes until the specs. are ratified by the BDA... maybe during Asian or European electronics expos in late spring or summer.

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post #1288 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Wasn't 100 Mb/s max for 66 GB discs and a little more for 100 GB discs?

I don't think we'll see working prototypes until the specs. are ratified by the BDA... maybe during Asian or European electronics expos in late spring or summer.
I'm just going off of the information that Madshi posted. Manni wanted to know what that number represented. Nothing is official yet until the BDA announce it. So for right now, this is just a prototype player and doesn't indicate what the final specs are going to be.
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post #1289 of 2607 Old 01-05-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure if there has to be any direct connection between size/capacity and bandwdith. E.g. you can spin 50GB discs faster to get more bandwidth.


Do you happen to have a link? I don't think I remember having read that yet.
Yes there is a direct connection, I looked for the original article from last summer and this is where I read it:


http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/


82Mb/s for 50Gb discs
108Mb/s for 66Gb discs
and 128Mb/s for 100Gb discs.


So it looks like it would be limited to 50Gb discs, unless it announces the bandwidth for the first capacity to be expected for the media (50Gb).


I think that it's very difficult to sourece non BDXL bluray drives these days, and I don't think the price difference between a 50GB BD drive and a BDXL drive is significant, so hopefully they put a BDXL drive ready to grow with the future media capacity, otherwise it's a dead-end.


Unfortunately the 420 reference wasn't in this article, but I remember being disappointed by it, so I'll try to find the source.
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes there is a direct connection, I looked for the original article from last summer and this is where I read it:


http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...reaming-media/


82Mb/s for 50Gb discs
108Mb/s for 66Gb discs
and 128Mb/s for 100Gb discs.


So it looks like it would be limited to 50Gb discs, unless it announces the bandwidth for the first capacity to be expected for the media (50Gb).


I think that it's very difficult to sourece non BDXL bluray drives these days, and I don't think the price difference between a 50GB BD drive and a BDXL drive is significant, so hopefully they put a BDXL drive ready to grow with the future media capacity, otherwise it's a dead-end.


Unfortunately the 420 reference wasn't in this article, but I remember being disappointed by it, so I'll try to find the source.
I don't see them going to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 sampling until phase 2 or 3 in the UHD road map. I'm amazed they even included 10 bit or Rec. 2020 and wide dynamic range video specs. this time around. However, I don't think we'll see anything greater than a DCI-P3 gamut for the foreseeable future.

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