Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 45 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1321 of 2108 Old 01-06-2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
There is no chance in hell that it is even close to ready now. CES has long had a history of empty case displays.
Why would you expect it to be ready when the specs have not even been announced and won't be until the summer of 2015 at best?


On another hand, from a hardware point of view, there is nothing in a Bluray 4K player which isn't already available. It's not as if there were inventing a new technology from the ground up. The BDXL drives they are going to use have been mass-produced for years, the HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 chipsets are already available, and the HEVC decoding chipsets are also available, so I really don't see why a prototype would be so impossible.


I'm not saying it's not an empty case, but it could be a prototype, as Bluray 4K is a very minor evolution from bluray (from a technological point of view).


If they had called it a final model and not a prototype, then I would agree with you.
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post #1322 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 04:14 AM
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Here's a nice condensed version about the prototype player Panasonic showed off at CES:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/uhd-bd-201501053979.htm
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post #1323 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I've updated my blog (link below) with what little info Victor Matsuda, Sony VP but with his Blu-ray Disc Association hat on, had to share about the next generation Blu-ray during yesterday'ss panel on 4K content at CES 2015.


http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...home-theaters/
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post #1324 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:00 AM
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Thanks Ron but I couldn't find anything from Masada re BDA/Bluray 4K. Where is it?
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post #1325 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:45 AM
 
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From reports, the Panny prototype is working playing a 4K or UHD disc encoded with H265.
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post #1326 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks Ron but I couldn't find anything from Masada re BDA/Bluray 4K. Where is it?

The last paragraph of the blog. I would summarize the very little info on 4K bluray but I think there is so much good info reported there by Ron on things besides 4K bluray, all here should click on the link and enjoy the great job Ron is doing.
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post #1327 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:53 AM
 
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Ron. You have two choices. Give me a like or send me a check.
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post #1328 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The last paragraph of the blog. I would summarize the very little info on 4K bluray but I think there is so much good info reported there by Ron on things besides 4K bluray, all here should click on the link and enjoy the great job Ron is doing.

Thanks Mark, found it now.


Very little that we didn't know already., although it's good that they don't seem to be pushing the timeline back.


I hope someone will be able to find out about chroma on UHD Bluray. That's the only missing bit of the specs really as everything else seems to be confirmed.
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post #1329 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 08:03 AM
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Format war is avoided ? #BluRay vs HD-DVD
I hope the Alliance will accelerate things and we will have have UHD by the end of the year.
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post #1330 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I've just added another bit of Ultra HD Blu-ray info to the end of my blog:


http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...home-theaters/

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post #1331 of 2108 Old 01-07-2015, 07:33 PM
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Ron,
I just saw your post on the Hisense pj. Did you see it? If so, what did it look like.

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post #1332 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 06:07 AM
 
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Ron is not in Vegas. He is in Florida. He gathers info, talks to manufacturers, talks to attendees and other reporters at the show, watches press conferences on his google machine, and reports offering critical insight. Projector wise there was little reason to haul one's ass to Vegas. Bluray wise, ditto. Its not a HT show at all. Its a panel show and Ron is a projector reporter. I wish I had gone because the weather in Vegas has been and is really nice now and its really cold for me where I live. Its a lot worse in many northern areas of the country.
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post #1333 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Ron is not in Vegas. He is in Florida. He gathers info, talks to manufacturers, talks to attendees and other reporters at the show, watches press conferences on his google machine, and reports offering critical insight. Projector wise there was little reason to haul one's ass to Vegas. Bluray wise, ditto. Its not a HT show at all. Its a panel show and Ron is a projector reporter. I wish I had gone because the weather in Vegas has been and is really nice now and its really cold for me where I live. Its a lot worse in many northern areas of the country.
Mark - I guess this is the coldest day of 2015, so far, for you in MD (for those that don't know, I also lived in the DC area for 33 years). Its cold here in FL today with low mid-40's high only 66, burrrrr (it's all relative, just remember that if you are in Minnesota today). It really does look like a very slow year at CES for HT equipment in general. Many years the new AVRs are announced there even if they don't start shipping until late summer. But this year it seems there is not much news even in that area, perhaps because the manufacturers are waiting for the 4K/UHD Blu-ray requirements to be finalized (so their can ensure compatibility) and the full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 w/HDPC 2.2 chips for AVRs to begin shipping (probably by mid-2015). I do see Denon is talking about HDMI 2.0 that offers an "upgrade path" to support HDCP 2.2 (requires a hardware upgrade) in their flagship AVR (AVR-X7200W) ,but that was already announced back in Nov. 2014 and it goes on sale this month.

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post #1334 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 08:43 AM
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Mark - I guess this is the coldest day of 2015, so far, for you in MD (for those that don't know, I also lived in the DC area for 33 years). Its cold here in FL today with low mid-40's high only 66, burrrrr (it's all relative, just remember that if you are in Minnesota today). It really does look like a very slow year at CES for HT equipment in general. Many years the new AVRs are announced there even if they don't start shipping until late summer. But this year it seems there is not much news even in that area, perhaps because the manufacturers are waiting for the 4K/UHD Blu-ray requirements to be finalized (so their can ensure compatibility) and the full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 w/HDPC 2.2 chips for AVRs to begin shipping (probably by mid-2015). I do see Denon is talking about HDMI 2.0 that offers an "upgrade path" to support HDCP 2.2 (requires a hardware upgrade) in their flagship AVR (AVR-X7200W) ,but that was already announced back in Nov. 2014 and it goes on sale this month.
The Denon X7200W (already shipping) and the Marantz AV8802 (shipping in February) will both offer an upgrade for full HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2. Upgrade should be available in May.

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post #1335 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Consumer Reports has a article by James Willcox reporting from CES on UHD Blu-ray that says, in part:


"During a UHD TV panel that I moderated this morning, Blu-ray Disc Association spokesperson Dan Schinasi said that the new Blu-ray specification for 4K is now nearly complete. It's expected to be locked down this spring so that licensing and manufacturing could start in the summer. The first UHD Blu-ray players and discs could arrive by the holiday season—though we still don't have any idea how much they'll cost."

So it does appear there is a good chance we will have the first UHD Blu-ray players and discs by the end of 2015.


There was also a little more info provided on the technical details of UHD Blu-ray (see text below in bold):


We were able to learn a few technical details about the new players and discs.

One is that they'll use the HEVC codec, sometimes called H.265. This is the same codec (compression scheme) used by Netflix and many of the other streaming services, so almost all UHD TVs introduced within the last year support it.

HEVC is a more efficient way of delivering high-bandwidth video, such as 4K. But UHD Blu-ray will reportedly have transfer rates up to 100Mbps, which is super fast, especially compared with streaming. That should produce better-looking images.

In addition to higher 4K resolution, UHD Blu-ray will be able to support better color, both a wider color gamut and 10-bit up to 16-bit color, which allows for smoother transitions between colors, without banding.

It will also include support for high dynamic range, which is the difference between the brightest and darkest images. There's also built-in optional support for 3D, should a manufacturer want to include this.

To fit the extra detail and improvements, new dual- (66GB) and triple-layer (100GB) discs are being developed. That's why older Blu-ray players won't be able to play the new UHD discs
_______________________________________________
Assuming all of this info is correct and taken along with Panasonic is reporting and other statements made at CES 2014 from Victor Matsuda (BDA spokesperson) it appears that the new UHD Blu-ray format will:


- use dual layer 66 GB discs or triple layer 100 GB discs
- support multiple color spaces up to and including Rec. 2020 (and probably will also specifically identify rec. 709 and DCI-P3 as valid color spaces - my opinion)
- will use a nominal/minimum bit depth of 10-bit and the standard will allow for up to 16-bit depth to be used
- will support up to 100 Mbps data rate for the recordings
- will use H.265/HEVC and given the above max. allowed characteristics that means version 2 of H.265 (rather than ver. 1 used by the 4K streaming services)
- will support 3D as an option (basically what we have now with HD blu-ray players where entry level models are not required to support 3D)


It sounds like the one significant piece of missing technical info is which chroma sub-sampling schemes will be supported in addition to 4:2:0 (i.e., will support for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 be required for players and optional for for the encoding on the discs?).

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post #1336 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 12:21 PM
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Thanks a lot for all this info Ron. And yes, the chroma subsampling info is the last missing bit of the puzzle at this stage.
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post #1337 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 12:33 PM
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One is that they'll use the HEVC codec, sometimes called H.265. This is the same codec (compression scheme) used by Netflix and many of the other streaming services, so almost all UHD TVs introduced within the last year support it.
It's irrelevant whether the TV supports HEVC or not, since the decoder will be in the UHD BD player.

This is something that confuses a lot of people.

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post #1338 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 12:39 PM
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That is assuming one will use streaming services (Netflix, etc) as available on the player as opposed to plugging the TV directly to the network and using the TV app.
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post #1339 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 01:48 PM
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That is assuming one will use streaming services (Netflix, etc) as available on the player as opposed to plugging the TV directly to the network and using the TV app.
If they truly intend to improve the audio quality of streaming content and start supporting object-based audio using the Dolby+ codec, then you will likely be forced to use the streaming apps on your UHD Blu-Ray player/streaming device. I don't see how they would be able to bitstream it from the TV's built-in apps over SPDIF/HDMI ARC with how little bandwidth these connections currently support. They have to use lossy compression just to get 5.1 over them now. Without a new HDMI revision that includes a bump in the bandwidth given to the HDMI ARC channel or even more compression, you aren't going to get 7.1 or more channels from the TV to your sound bar/AVR/pre-pro. External streaming devices don't have to deal with this issue as they can use the full audio bandwidth of HDMI to transmit the audio to your surround sound system.
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post #1340 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 03:31 PM
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Curious of the upsampling rate and my guess that is the main final spec they are trying to nail down, but I am very impressed about what I hearing with UHD Blu-ray so far. There is no way streaming will be able to compete with it in terms of PQ with these kind of specs and really gives UHD Blu-ray a better chance of succeeding for the longer term (vs my fear of it ending up like D-VHS with overly-compressed streaming taking over all UHD content delivery).

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post #1341 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 07:11 PM
 
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What you guys don't seem to get is the vast vast majority of the potential market for 4K material doesn't give a damn about superior PQ. They care about instant gratification. They want content as soon as its released and they want to pay only a few dollars for it. They want price over quality and display size over PQ. They are oblivious to the geometrical distortion in curved sets. BTW DVD is now 20 years old.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Ron is not in Vegas. He is in Florida. He gathers info, talks to manufacturers, talks to attendees and other reporters at the show, watches press conferences on his google machine, and reports offering critical insight. Projector wise there was little reason to haul one's ass to Vegas. Bluray wise, ditto. Its not a HT show at all. Its a panel show and Ron is a projector reporter. I wish I had gone because the weather in Vegas has been and is really nice now and its really cold for me where I live. Its a lot worse in many northern areas of the country.

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post #1343 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 08:58 PM
 
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Are you following the lead of Bill Cosby? Ron had previously posted that he would not be attending CES but that he would have eyes and ears there through Art.
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post #1344 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:15 PM
 
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BTW Mark Henninger has reported in the Panasonic new TVs thread that the Panny box was non functional.

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post #1345 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
What you guys don't seem to get is the vast vast majority of the potential market for 4K material doesn't give a damn about superior PQ. They care about instant gratification. They want content as soon as its released and they want to pay only a few dollars for it. They want price over quality and display size over PQ. They are oblivious to the geometrical distortion in curved sets. BTW DVD is now 20 years old.
This is very true and indeed a really sad state of affairs.
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post #1346 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:37 PM
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I wish I had gone because the weather in Vegas has been and is really nice now and its really cold for me where I live. Its a lot worse in many northern areas of the country.
Consider yourself lucky, Mark. On Wednesday I woke up to -20 degrees Celsius and -30 degrees Celsius with windchill. But we're used to this kind of weather and don't complain. Perfect weather to cuddle and warm up by the 1100ES projector.
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post #1347 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:40 PM
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DVD is still the #1 format for consumers lol.... Blu-Ray will be with us for awhile which is fine.. it is a great format.. 4k Blu I just don't see it really coming to fruition until the quality is truly there... I would imagine 2017 or maybe a little bit afterwards until we get good quality stuff.. work on the quality aspect.. don't rush it !! I think the basic specs they are talking about sounds promising.. I just don't think they will rush this out.. at least it doesnt sound like it.. by the time they get all of the maufactueres and hollywood studios on board etc.. it might be a while and thats ok.. i would rather they not rush it.. until then we will have 4k TVs upscaling BD's which is cool..... and I still have my GT50 Panny Plasma looking great with my BD's!
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post #1348 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
What you guys don't seem to get is the vast vast majority of the potential market for 4K material doesn't give a damn about superior PQ. They care about instant gratification. They want content as soon as its released and they want to pay only a few dollars for it. They want price over quality and display size over PQ. They are oblivious to the geometrical distortion in curved sets. BTW DVD is now 20 years old.
Mark,
The same thing happened back in the VHS/Beta war.
People chose VHS as the VCR's were 1/3rd the price of a beta deck, never mind that Beta had better resolution and less picture noise than VHS.
Sony just priced themselves out of the VCR market.
Why buy a $1200 Beta deck when you could get a VHS for around $300.
There was much more software available for VHS also.
I went with Beta which at the time made a great picture. VHS looked so pasty, don't see how anyone could stand watching it.
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post #1349 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 09:43 PM
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Mark,
The same thing happened back in the VHS/Beta war.
People chose VHS as the VCR's were 1/3rd the price of a beta deck, never mind that Beta had better resolution and less picture noise than VHS.
Sony just priced themselves out of the VCR market.
Why buy a $1200 Beta deck when you could get a VHS for around $300.
There was much more software available for VHS also.
I went with Beta which at the time made a great picture. VHS looked so pasty, don't see how anyone could stand watching it.
VHS was garbage, but it won that fight... I had to quickly move to Laserdisc for my widescreen fix and at least stable looking video that wouldn't deteriorate (unless you, unfortunately, bought a disc that would eventually rot on you).
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post #1350 of 2108 Old 01-08-2015, 11:58 PM
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The Hollywood Reporters take on UHD Bluray...


http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...blu-ray-761728


"It will begin rolling out the technical specification to licensees in mid-2015, and the first titles are expected to be on the market before the end of the year."
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