Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 01-09-2015, 08:43 AM
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I believe the UHDs will be a success. Maybe not a big success or even a moderate one. As long as the new hardware is backward compatible, I don't see a reason why there won't be a decent amount of player sales. Even if software sales are huge, I can still see the major movies being released in UHD. If sales were so bad, then Walmart would remove them and put something else on the racks.



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Are you following the lead of Bill Cosby? Ron had previously posted that he would not be attending CES but that he would have eyes and ears there through Art.
I did not see that on his blog and haven't read all of the posts here.

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Old 01-09-2015, 09:07 AM
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UHD will be a success as TV manufacturers will drop prices soon and with a year or two, most TVs will be 4k. Whether they add full support for the new Bluray spec any time soon is quite unclear, especially if it requires substantial investments. Also, I do not see the 4k Bluray as the major driving force. UHD Streaming (VOD, broadcast, downloads) will likely affect people's decisions more. Manufacturers are catering to the masses more so than before.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
... but how much do they really sell? There will be say some parents that will buy kids movies they can play again and again in a straightforward manner, including in the van. Where I live, DVD and Bluray rentals are disappearing more quickly than I expected... including these automated rental kiosks. I watch many movies or series just once and do not want to buy just for that (even used). While 4k bluray is certainly exciting, it will likely constitute less than 10% of what I will be watching in the next 5 years. I hope Bluray as a whole will remain a viable format (4K or not). I will be glad to be proven wrong.

Here are the sales numbers for Blu Ray and DVD's - http://www.the-numbers.com/home-mark...dia-sales/2014

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Old 01-09-2015, 10:54 AM
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Can PS3/PS4 read 4K Blu Ray ?
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Here are the sales numbers for Blu Ray and DVD's - http://www.the-numbers.com/home-mark...dia-sales/2014
The numbers on Frozen...wow!
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:10 AM
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Can PS3/PS4 read 4K Blu Ray ?
No. Just regular Blu-ray.

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Old 01-09-2015, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Here are the sales numbers for Blu Ray and DVD's - http://www.the-numbers.com/home-mark...dia-sales/2014
These may be impressive (?), though through my half empty glass, I see that on average each of these titles has been purchased by less than 1% of the US population. This may be sustainable... I hope it is.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:36 AM
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When you add up all of the titles (most of which not even listed), there is still A LOT of money being taken in by physical media sales...even if streaming is gaining market share.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:41 AM
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In the U.S., Frozen pulled in just over $400 million at the theaters - the Blu alone did $317 million. The DVD did almost $167 million.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
No. Just regular Blu-ray.
Are you sure about that Dan?


I was under the impression that it had a BDXL drive, and Ron Jones confirmed at the time that it had HDMI 2.0 (level B) and HDCP 2.2, if I remember correctly.


If this is correct, it could become a Trojan UHD bluray player with a simple f/w update, as it clearly has the CPU/GPU power to decode HEVC.


I don't have any confirmation for the above, but if you have a confirmation that it's not correct, I'd love to see it.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
UHD will be a success as TV manufacturers will drop prices soon and with a year or two, most TVs will be 4k. Whether they add full support for the new Bluray spec any time soon is quite unclear, especially if it requires substantial investments. Also, I do not see the 4k Bluray as the major driving force. UHD Streaming (VOD, broadcast, downloads) will likely affect people's decisions more. Manufacturers are catering to the masses more so than before.
I too think UHD will be successful. If 1080p TVs are replaced with 4K TVs, then they will not have much of a choice but to provide UHD content. Whether that be broadcast, sports, gaming, streaming, or 4k BD. It will be slow of course, since we are finally getting content in 1080p over the last year or two.
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Old 01-09-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I too think UHD will be successful. If 1080p TVs are replaced with 4K TVs, then they will not have much of a choice but to provide UHD content. Whether that be broadcast, sports, gaming, streaming, or 4k BD. It will be slow of course, since we are finally getting content in 1080p over the last year or two.

Of course they have a choice. Your 4K TV has no problem upscaling 720p. I doubt most people have much idea what the resolution of most cable channels is. That said, I'll take 4K source material if I can get it. The cable companies compress things so much now though, we're going to need more bandwidth !!

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Old 01-09-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Are you sure about that Dan?


I was under the impression that it had a BDXL drive, and Ron Jones confirmed at the time that it had HDMI 2.0 (level B) and HDCP 2.2, if I remember correctly.


If this is correct, it could become a Trojan UHD bluray player with a simple f/w update, as it clearly has the CPU/GPU power to decode HEVC.


I don't have any confirmation for the above, but if you have a confirmation that it's not correct, I'd love to see it.
It depends on the type of drive included. BDXL, at least in terms of current computer drives, seems to have meant the BDXL recordable media. 66 and 100 GB discs for Ultra HD are stamped.

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Old 01-09-2015, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It depends on the type of drive included. BDXL, at least in terms of current computer drives, seems to have meant the BDXL recordable media. 66 and 100 GB discs for Ultra HD are stamped.
It's like with bluray. If you get a bluray recorder, you can both record recordable media and read non recordable media.


With BDXL, if you have a recorder you can record recordable media - and read non-recordable one - but if it's a simple reader nothing prevents you from reading non-recordable media.


I have no idea whether the drive in the PS4 is able to record or not, but I heard it was a BDXL model, which means the PS4, potentially, could become a UHD bluray reader (possibly with some limitations, like the initial PS3 had vs a dedicated bluray player).


I'm only saying this so that the PS4 is not written off too quickly as not having the potential to be a Trojan UHD bluray player.

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Old 01-09-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I had a DLP that I recently sold and I miss the DLP look. Since I will be going with a 10ft+ wide screen in less than a year, I decided to sell the 600 lumen LED DLP. Really hoping in the next two years, I can pull off a 4k JVC/Sony and 4K DLP.
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Of course they have a choice. Your 4K TV has no problem upscaling 720p. I doubt most people have much idea what the resolution of most cable channels is. That said, I'll take 4K source material if I can get it. The cable companies compress things so much now though, we're going to need more bandwidth !!
I really got tired of watching how bad my cable looked with Directv. Some stations looked good but some are awful. I found myself watching a tv show on Netflix through my Oppo because it was a Netflix show not available on TV and I could not believe how much better it looked. I subscribed to Hulu plus and Netflix both for a small price and got rid of my $130 a month cable bill. If 4K streaming just looks a tad bit better, I'll be sold.
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Old 01-09-2015, 12:08 PM
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Some shows on Netflix, like Marco Polo, just look great on my VW300 - even though I cannot stream it in 4k yet (though it is available in 4k now).


Here is a good article on trends on bluray sales up to now - not too bad but declining year over year:


http://www.digital-digest.com/blog/D...december-2014/
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Old 01-09-2015, 12:17 PM
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I know this is more about software than hardware, but ... 4K direct view displays will begin to benefit from the significant development and production for video production and post production. I tend to think that the prices will come down on the displays, PQ will grow, as will demand. I suspect that will drive more content, and if streaming can't deliver enough UHD soon, discs will come to bridge that.

And manufacturers do eventually respond to our PQ desires. Maybe you've forgotten how tough it used to be to get to the controls to calibrate a display. They are now there in spades right in the user menus! That's a change I never thought we'd see.
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Old 01-09-2015, 12:46 PM
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There is no doubt in my mind that physical media will succeed. Streaming is convenient but it will always have issues.

For example: my household has a fairly quick (but overpriced) internet connection through Comcast. However, it would be nearly impossible for me to maintain a UHD stream, why? As I type this, there are at least 10 plus Wifi devices connected to my router. An iPad streaming YouTube + A PS4 playing Destiny + Laptops surfing the Web = not enough bandwidth left for 4K and barley enough left for 1080p.

This scenario doesn't happen with physical media. In fact, my ISP could be down for service and a 4K Bluray would still play just fine. Not to mention, there is still a large number of households that don't have access to high speed internet. In the end, the only thing that will really hold back 4K Bluray is the price. They have to find a way to keep the players and disk cheap.
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Old 01-09-2015, 01:16 PM
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There is no doubt in my mind that physical media will succeed. Streaming is convenient but it will always have issues.

For example: my household has a fairly quick (but overpriced) internet connection through Comcast. However, it would be nearly impossible for me to maintain a UHD stream, why? As I type this, there are at least 10 plus Wifi devices connected to my router. An iPad streaming YouTube + A PS4 playing Destiny + Laptops surfing the Web = not enough bandwidth left for 4K and barley enough left for 1080p.

This scenario doesn't happen with physical media. In fact, my ISP could be down for service and a 4K Bluray would still play just fine. Not to mention, there is still a large number of households that don't have access to high speed internet. In the end, the only thing that will really hold back 4K Bluray is the price. They have to find a way to keep the players and disk cheap.
The trouble is: I don't think they'll keep these discs "cheap." The price some of these studios want for digital UHD downloads on their proprietary services that are far less capable than the proposed 4k Blu-ray standards is outrageous and that's with no packaged media included.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 01-09-2015, 01:30 PM
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The trouble is: I don't think they'll keep these discs "cheap." The price some of these studios want for digital UHD downloads on their proprietary services that are far less capable than the proposed 4k Blu-ray standards is outrageous and that's with no packaged media included.
The price should be interesting. I am speculating $20-30 each street price from Amazon initially.
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Old 01-09-2015, 02:53 PM
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UHD Discs Announced

Ultra HD Blu-ray Spec at CES 2015

sounds pretty good! Now the real question... will my VW600ES be able to use these discs???
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Old 01-09-2015, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The trouble is: I don't think they'll keep these discs "cheap." The price some of these studios want for digital UHD downloads on their proprietary services that are far less capable than the proposed 4k Blu-ray standards is outrageous and that's with no packaged media included.
If it's anything like games, you can get media on sale whereas downloads don't seem to have sales to the same extent.

That and of course, you can always re-sell media.
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Old 01-09-2015, 05:02 PM
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The price should be interesting. I am speculating $20-30 each street price from Amazon initially.

That might drive down the price of Blu Rays, for those people staying with 1080p for now. Win win !!

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Old 01-09-2015, 05:12 PM
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That might drive down the price of Blu-rays, for those people staying with 1080p for now. Win win !!
The glass half full side of me says: right on! The glass half empty side of me says: ain't gonna happen.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 01-09-2015, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Are you sure about that Dan?


I was under the impression that it had a BDXL drive, and Ron Jones confirmed at the time that it had HDMI 2.0 (level B) and HDCP 2.2, if I remember correctly.


If this is correct, it could become a Trojan UHD bluray player with a simple f/w update, as it clearly has the CPU/GPU power to decode HEVC.


I don't have any confirmation for the above, but if you have a confirmation that it's not correct, I'd love to see it.

I was never able to confirm the HDCP version and the HDMI version is also not absolutely confirmed as 2.0 (may be an enhanced version of 1.4 with some HDMI 2.0 features but not a full HDMI 2.0 implementation). I have not attempted to keep up with PS4 news since shortly after it came out, perhaps the HDMI and HDCP info has by now been confirmed by someone. If it doesn't have the hardware for HDCP 2.2 then its a no go for ever supporting UHD Blu-ray and, unlike what was the situation with the PS3, it appears Sony hasn't put much attention into the PS4's disc playback capabilities.
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Old 01-09-2015, 06:53 PM
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I was never able to confirm the HDCP version and the HDMI version is also not absolutely confirmed as 2.0 (may be an enhanced version of 1.4 with some HDMI 2.0 features but not a full HDMI 2.0 implementation). I have not attempted to keep up with PS4 news since shortly after it came out, perhaps the HDMI and HDCP info has by now been confirmed by someone. If it doesn't have the hardware for HDCP 2.2 then its a no go for ever supporting UHD Blu-ray and, unlike what was the situation with the PS3, it appears Sony hasn't put much attention into the PS4's disc playback capabilities.
Based on when the PS4 was released and the state of the HDMI chips used in their TV's and AV receivers at that time, I suspect that the PS4's HDMI chip maxes out at 10.2 Gbps, but that it is capable of supporting 2160p @ 60 fps using 8-bit 4:2:0 sub sampling if/when Sony decides to push the update to enable it. However, I doubt that it is HDCP 2.2 compliant, which means it won't be able to play UHD Blu-Rays or stream copy protected 4K content.
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I was never able to confirm the HDCP version and the HDMI version is also not absolutely confirmed as 2.0 (may be an enhanced version of 1.4 with some HDMI 2.0 features but not a full HDMI 2.0 implementation). I have not attempted to keep up with PS4 news since shortly after it came out, perhaps the HDMI and HDCP info has by now been confirmed by someone. If it doesn't have the hardware for HDCP 2.2 then its a no go for ever supporting UHD Blu-ray and, unlike what was the situation with the PS3, it appears Sony hasn't put much attention into the PS4's disc playback capabilities.
Hi Ron,


Thanks for this.


As I said, I've not been able to get confirmation one way or the other, which is why I was asking Dan if he had some solid info regarding the PS4 hdmi/hdcp/bd player specs before we write it off as a potential Trojan UHD player (even with limited features, like the PS3 was for bluray at the time).


Meantime, you're going to have to edit a few posts re the PS4 supporting HDMI 2.0, as you're my source of information for this .


Starting with post 1 of this very thread:
3. PS4 will have a HDMI 2.0 port (source - Sony representative at IFA)
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Old 01-10-2015, 01:32 AM
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Hi Ron,
Thanks for this.

As I said, I've not been able to get confirmation one way or the other, which is why I was asking Dan if he had some solid info regarding the PS4 hdmi/hdcp/bd player specs before we write it off as a potential Trojan UHD player (even with limited features, like the PS3 was for bluray at the time).

Meantime, you're going to have to edit a few posts re the PS4 supporting HDMI 2.0, as you're my source of information for this .

Starting with post 1 of this very thread:
3. PS4 will have a HDMI 2.0 port (source - Sony representative at IFA)
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Old 01-10-2015, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Ron,


Thanks for this.


As I said, I've not been able to get confirmation one way or the other, which is why I was asking Dan if he had some solid info regarding the PS4 hdmi/hdcp/bd player specs before we write it off as a potential Trojan UHD player (even with limited features, like the PS3 was for bluray at the time).


Meantime, you're going to have to edit a few posts re the PS4 supporting HDMI 2.0, as you're my source of information for this .


Starting with post 1 of this very thread:
3. PS4 will have a HDMI 2.0 port (source - Sony representative at IFA)
As I recall there was an indication from a Sony rep, (as indicated above) before the PS4 was released, that it would have HDMI 2.0. However, I have not seen any independent confirmation this is actually the case that came out since the PS4 was released. I would have expected that some web site would have disassembled a PS4 and provided detailed photos of the components being used, including the specific HDMI parts (this was done for the PS3, but I haven't seen it for the PS4). I have seen some teardown videos for the PS4, but haven't seen one that lets you identify the specific HDMI chips being used. It is likely Sony is using HDMI chips from Silicon Image (as did the PS3) that will have a part number like this: Sil9xxx. (e.g., Sil9136). So the bottom lines seems to be there was some pre-release indications from at least one Sony representative that the PS4 would have a HDMI 2.0 port, we really need to confirm this with the production units. I guess the bigger question is, even if the PS4 has the essential hardware, will Sony invest their resources to make the PS4 capable of playing UHD Blu-ray discs.

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Old 01-10-2015, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
As I recall there was an indication from a Sony rep, (as indicated above) before the PS4 was released, that it would have HDMI 2.0. However, I have not seen any independent confirmation this is actually the case that came out since the PS4 was released. I would have expected that some web site would have disassembled a PS4 and provided detailed photos of the components being used, including the specific HDMI parts (this was done for the PS3, but I haven't seen it for the PS4). I have seen some teardown videos for the PS4, but haven't seen one that lets you identify the specific HDMI chips being used. It is likely Sony is using HDMI chips from Silicon Image (as did the PS3) that will have a part number like this: Sil9xxx. (e.g., Sil9136). So the bottom lines seems to be there was some pre-release indications from at least one Sony representative that the PS4 would have a HDMI 2.0 port, we really need to confirm this with the production units. I guess the bigger question is, even if the PS4 has the essential hardware, will Sony invest their resources to make the PS4 capable of playing UHD Blu-ray discs.

I think that just like they used the PS3 was a way to promote bluray, they could use the PS4 to promote UHD Blu-ray, provided they had the foresight to make the hardware compatible (even if in a minimal way).


I'm not saying they did, or indeed that they will be able to invest the resources to develop the software to handle this, but if it was part of their plan it could happen. They have an interest in selling 4K displays (TVs and projectors) and giving "for free" the least expensive part of the equation (the source/player) would allow them to sell the content (movies) and the displays (as well as a few AVRs), where their margin is huge.


Not a bad business plan, if 1) they thought about it and 2) are still able to implement it given their dire financial state.


My only point here is that unless there is proof that the PS4 can't handle bluray 4K because the hardware isn't up to scratch, I don't think we should rule the possibility out.


I don't have a PS4, don't plan to get one and have no vested interest in Sony either, so I'm entirely neutral .
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