Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 48 - AVS Forum
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post #1411 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Why?
There is another projector that reaches it? I thought the DPI $150k model was the only one

Well, the only one I heard about. Either way, I'm sure there is not going to be a 4k projector under $10,000 this year or next that reaches rec 2020. Even the Sony 1100es does not reach rec 2020 and that's almost $30K

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post #1412 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 12:11 AM
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post #1413 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
There is another projector that reaches it? I thought the DPI $150k model was the only one
That model doesn't meet Rec2020. Even DP's own marketing shows it doesn't meet it. It comes close like all the other LED models. The light source majorly controls if the projector will get to REC2020 or not. The current types of LEDs used just come shy of REC2020.

Here's an image I put together:



As you can see, it misses both blue and green and tapers the triangle on both those sides to miss a lot of other color points.

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post #1414 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Well that's the thing though, unless UHD blu-ray has both P3 and REC2020 listed in it's spec, everything will be "remapped" for REC2020. So again, if we can't achieve REC2020, which means we also can't calibrate for it, where does that leave us?

If they list P3 AND 2020 in the standard there will have to be some meta-data sent with the video information to tell the display to switch over to a different color gamut. Because playing P3 color graded video with a display in it's REC2020 gamut will have incorrect colors which is why they need to be remapped.
Yes, I would suspect (hope!) the meta-data is present for each gamut. Initially, I would suspect just P3 for the first several years. At least 2020 is in the spec for future potential implementation.

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post #1415 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Thanks for the response even though all of it is pure speculation haha. But you at least acknowledge the huge flaw I see with REC2020, right?
Well apparently it was good speculation:

SMPTE 2086:
"Project scope:Develop multi-part standards for specifying the semantics and representation of content-dependent metadata needed for color volume transformation of high dynamic range and wide color gamut imagery to smaller color volumes (e.g. BT.709 or Digital Cinema) in mastering applications."
This was referenced here:
Ultra HD Blu-ray Spec at CES 2015



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I think this new UHD standard is seriously pushing the limits of current technology. There will need to be SOOO many work-arounds to get this format to work on legacy and non-compliant UHDTVs and projectors.
It is pushing the limits, but properly handled (ala SMPTE 2086), I think that's a good thing. I mean how many of us wish or thought that Blu-ray should have included support for P3 or 10 bit color. Whatever is in the Ultra HD Blu-ray V1 spec is basically going to be what it's going to be forever. I mean how many studios/content creators will take advantage of Rec2020 in five years it it won't work on all installed Ultra HD Blu-ray players?

Also, don't forget, that the discs themselves aren't required to be Rec 2020, so the studios can just take their DCI masters and they should be able to map them almost directly to Ultra HD Blu-ray.

I'm excited about UHD Blu-ray, I'm glad to see they're creating an ambitious spec, especially after being somewhat underwhelmed with the overly conservative Blu-ray spec (Rec 709, 8-bit, 4:2:0 color, max 1080p30). This Ultra HD Blu-ray spec should be good for quite a while to come, even if it's not all practical for displays today.

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post #1416 of 1429 Old 01-12-2015, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Well apparently it was good speculation:

SMPTE 2086:
"Project scope:Develop multi-part standards for specifying the semantics and representation of content-dependent metadata needed for color volume transformation of high dynamic range and wide color gamut imagery to smaller color volumes (e.g. BT.709 or Digital Cinema) in mastering applications."
This was referenced here:
Ultra HD Blu-ray Spec at CES 2015





It is pushing the limits, but properly handled (ala SMPTE 2086), I think that's a good thing. I mean how many of us wish or thought that Blu-ray should have included support for P3 or 10 bit color. Whatever is in the Ultra HD Blu-ray V1 spec is basically going to be what it's going to be forever. I mean how many studios/content creators will take advantage of Rec2020 in five years it it won't work on all installed Ultra HD Blu-ray players?

Also, don't forget, that the discs themselves aren't required to be Rec 2020, so the studios can just take their DCI masters and they should be able to map them almost directly to Ultra HD Blu-ray.

I'm excited about UHD Blu-ray, I'm glad to see they're creating an ambitious spec, especially after being somewhat underwhelmed with the overly conservative Blu-ray spec (Rec 709, 8-bit, 4:2:0 color, max 1080p30). This Ultra HD Blu-ray spec should be good for quite a while to come, even if it's not all practical for displays today.
The only issue I see with this is that the SMPTE 2086 standard is still in development. What happens when the BDA finalizes the UHD BD spec before SMPTE finalizes this standard and is not included in the BDA's spec?

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post #1417 of 1429 Old 01-13-2015, 05:31 AM
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Maybe that's all BDA is waiting on (probably not, but who knows).

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post #1418 of 1429 Old 01-17-2015, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The only issue I see with this is that the SMPTE 2086 standard is still in development. What happens when the BDA finalizes the UHD BD spec before SMPTE finalizes this standard and is not included in the BDA's spec?
SMPTE 2086 was officially completed in October of last year and for some money you can even download it. The standard was technically completed about a year ago which is when it was added to the second version of HEVC.
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post #1419 of 1429 Old 01-17-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Yes, I would suspect (hope!) the meta-data is present for each gamut. Initially, I would suspect just P3 for the first several years. At least 2020 is in the spec for future potential implementation.
A method for gamut mapping was added to the second version of HEVC last year and my guess is that is what Ultra HD Blu-ray will use. For the next few years I would expect the studios to use DCI P3 since that is the current standard for movie theaters.
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post #1420 of 1429 Old 01-17-2015, 04:43 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for the link. They must have forgotten to update that page. This page says it's estimated for completion in September of this year:

https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=294

Is this a different project?

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post #1421 of 1429 Old 01-17-2015, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the link. They must have forgotten to update that page. This page says it's estimated for completion in September of this year:

https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=294

Is this a different project?
That project is for creating a gamut mapping standard for professional equipment. They could simply use the gamut mapping standard that was added to the second version of HEVC but my guess is that something more complex, and more expensive, will get chosen for professional equipment.
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post #1422 of 1429 Old Yesterday, 11:33 AM
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Does anyone know if it's been confirmed if the existing PC drives that support BDXL will natively be able to handle ULTRA HD BLU-RAY? All I see are assumptions, no actual official press release stating that BDXL will be format.
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post #1423 of 1429 Old Yesterday, 11:59 AM
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I'd worry about software to actually play them a lot more than if the drives are physically capable of reading the discs.

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post #1424 of 1429 Old Yesterday, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky2 View Post
Does anyone know if it's been confirmed if the existing PC drives that support BDXL will natively be able to handle ULTRA HD BLU-RAY? All I see are assumptions, no actual official press release stating that BDXL will be format.
I believe the format is the same, but the current drives would probably need at least a f/w upgrade to support the new UHD Bluray discs, so I would wait until BDXL drives advertise full UHD Bluray compatibility (or early adopters/existing owners report full compatibility) before buying a specific model. That's unlikely to happen until the first discs are released towards the end of the year.

Then you would obviously need not only software to be updated to play the discs - either licensed like PowerDVD or unlicensed like jRiver, XBMC, MPC-HC etc once/if HDCP 2.2 protection is cracked - but depending on the power of your CPU you might also need a GPU supporting hardware acceleration for HEVC, as well as supporting HDCP 2.2 to be able to use a licensed player.

So I do plan to upgrade my HTPC with a BDXL drive and a GPU supporting HDMI 2.0 level A, HDCP 2.2 and HEVC h/w acceleration, but the products are not there yet.

In theory though, this will be all you need to be able to play UHD BD on a PC.

The big question is whether the BDA would grant a license to an official player like PowerDVD, as if I remember correctly it is licensed players on PC which allowed to crack the last HDCP version. They might have learnt from that...

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post #1425 of 1429 Old Yesterday, 01:17 PM
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Yeah I figured on a new video card supporting HDMI 2.0 + HDCP 2.2, along with HEVC decode. Just will suck if the current BDXL (and I've got probably one of the first in another machine I have) drives won't get firmware updates that make them support it.

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post #1426 of 1429 Old Today, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Then you would obviously need not only software to be updated to play the discs - either licensed like PowerDVD or unlicensed like jRiver, XBMC, MPC-HC etc once/if HDCP 2.2 protection is cracked - but depending on the power of your CPU you might also need a GPU supporting hardware acceleration for HEVC, as well as supporting HDCP 2.2 to be able to use a licensed player.
To be clear HDCP has nothing to do with unlicensed players, AACS/BD+ (or whatever new creative disc-based protection system comes out) needs to be circumvented for unlicensed players to work. But I find myself wondering if there will even be a UHD version of PowerDVD or WinDVD (the only licensed players left). And assuming they don't just use current AACS/BD+ (I can't imagine the paranoid studios giving in and sticking with broken encryption) how long before there's a workaround?

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The big question is whether the BDA would grant a license to an official player like PowerDVD, as if I remember correctly it is licensed players on PC which allowed to crack the last HDCP version. They might have learnt from that...
The bigger question is will Cyberlink or Corel even try to get licensed.

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post #1427 of 1429 Old Today, 06:51 AM
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The bigger question is will Cyberlink or Corel even try to get licensed.
I'd be surprised if Cyberlink doesn't at least attempt to get a license. They've been pretty good about making sure that their software is updated with the latest features, so that they can justify a new version every year and charge existing users to upgrade. I don't see how they could continue to make and sell new versions of their software if it never makes the transition to supporting native 4k. They jumped on the 4k upscaling bandwagon a few versions back and have been quick to add HEVC support.

Something else to consider is that playback of the film directly from the physical disc might not be the only source from which you can get the full quality version. If the "digital bridge" copy is a full quality download and it's compatible with PC's using licensed playback software then you wouldn't even need to rip the discs anymore. Supposedly, PowerDVD already supports playback of your Ultraviolet library. So, it's possible that they could end up going the digital download/streaming route and not support playback of the content directly from the physical Ultra HD Blu-Ray. However, I don't know if they can really make money selling software to do that if other providers like Vudu are giving the playback software away for free (as they make their money on content sales). The only thing they would offer at that point that Vudu does not is playback of your existing DVD/Blu-Ray disc collections and any other video content you have on your PC/Server.
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post #1428 of 1429 Old Today, 11:03 AM
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Wonder if they'll try to push the interactive online features again. They tried it on a few discs but unless you got the discs at release, a lot of those features weren't available.

Not sure if they are still making discs with online features.

If they want to make the product more attractive, they will get rid of the Java layers that make disc loading such an arduous drawn-out process.
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post #1429 of 1429 Old Today, 07:54 PM
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PowerDVD or WinDVD (the only licensed players left)
Wow. Since they put in Cinavia and I stopped updating my version of TMT*, I haven't been keeping up with Arcsoft news. I didn't even know they stopped selling it until this post.

*I don't even pirate anything and I use ANYDVD (to skip trailers and such and defeat some region coding for imports. And previously to defeat HDCP for my old monitor that didn't have hdcp), so Cinavia wouldn't even affect me, but on principle alone, I didn't want to update TMT to support Cinavia.
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