Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 520Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1441 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 07:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 18,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 774 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Understand that Coding the content to Rec2020 primaries, and content actually using the gamut are not the same thing. It seems entirely plausible that (for implementation simplicity) the content on UHD BD will be coded for Rec2020 primaries, but the content itself will have been mastered for Rec709 or DCI-P3, thus leaving the extra gamut unused (ie it would look the same on a Rec 2020 display or a P3 display for example).

Like how black and white content is encoded as color, using Rec 709 primaries on Blu-ray.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1442 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 08:27 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 585 671 2968
Posts: 10,997
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2129 Post(s)
Liked: 1142
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Keep in mind - the projectors don't play anything, they receive signals via HDMI 2.0 and decode them. What I was speculating - and its only my speculation based on reading that slide, was that the data encoded on the UHD blu-ray (for UHD content) would be rec 2020 only. And that the UHD blu-ray player (none exist yet) would have to change from that color space to the smaller rec 709 or DCI-P3 color space of the TV or projector.

Regardless, I fully expect the Sony's to be capable of playing UHD blu-ray, along with all current 4K TVs. Otherwise its DOA for the format.
Correct.

AV Geek for life. :) Call for advice and help.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1443 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 10:26 AM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Keep in mind - the projectors don't play anything, they receive signals via HDMI 2.0 and decode them. What I was speculating - and its only my speculation based on reading that slide, was that the data encoded on the UHD blu-ray (for UHD content) would be rec 2020 only. And that the UHD blu-ray player (none exist yet) would have to change from that color space to the smaller rec 709 or DCI-P3 color space of the TV or projector.

Regardless, I fully expect the Sony's to be capable of playing UHD blu-ray, along with all current 4K TVs. Otherwise its DOA for the format.
Time will tell, remember 3D AVATAR was going to make all of us 3D lovers!

4K is in it's infancy and I am done being a trail blazer it's too expensive for me now, so once I see BluRay 4K movies offered on Amazon special at $10 then it will be time to pull the trigger until then I will just change the lamp in my JVC 1080p
wse is online now  
post #1444 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 10:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 585 671 2972
Posts: 7,111
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1041 Post(s)
Liked: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Time will tell, remember 3D AVATAR was going to make all of us 3D lovers!

4K is in it's infancy and I am done being a trail blazer it's too expensive for me now, so once I see BluRay 4K movies offered on Amazon special at $10 then it will be time to pull the trigger until then I will just change the lamp in my JVC 1080p
I sort of feel the same way ( having been an HD DVD first adopter ), but I'm going to enjoy the superior brightness and sharp picture on my VW600 with Blu Rays, while I wait. It's not like I don't have enough to watch right now !


GoCaboNow likes this.

Home theater builder and enthusiast since 2002. Call me for advice or help anytime !
Craig Peer is offline  
post #1445 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 10:47 AM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I sort of feel the same way ( having been an HD DVD first adopter ), but I'm going to enjoy the superior brightness and sharp picture on my VW600 with Blu Rays, while I wait. It's not like I don't have enough to watch right now !


Nice collection of course if I could get dealer prices like 40% off MSRP I might also buy a new projector and sell it two years from now without loosing any money

Since I can't have 40% off the MSRP, I will just wait a bit more

I bought the First SIM2 Seleco projector years ago it now is used as a door stop! Talk about waisting lots of money
wse is online now  
post #1446 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 585 671 2972
Posts: 7,111
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1041 Post(s)
Liked: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Nice collection of course if I could get dealer prices like 40% off MSRP I might also buy a new projector and sell it two years from now without loosing any money

Since I can't have 40% off the MSRP, I will just wait a bit more

I bought the First SIM2 Seleco projector years ago it now is used as a door stop! Talk about waisting lots of money

Maybe I'll just use my VW600 with my Lumis to watch Blu rays for the next 5 years, skip 4K, and jump back in with the then new 8K projectors and SUHD disks !

I didn't get 40% off my new S Works Roubaix with Di2 and hydraulic disc brakes. Sometimes you just need to open your wallet to get what you want. Simple as that. But I tend to keep things a long time - nearly 6 years for my Lumis ( still throws a great picture ) - 14 years for my Toyota Tacoma.

Home theater builder and enthusiast since 2002. Call me for advice or help anytime !
Craig Peer is offline  
post #1447 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:14 AM
Senior Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Understand that Coding the content to Rec2020 primaries, and content actually using the gamut are not the same thing. It seems entirely plausible that (for implementation simplicity) the content on UHD BD will be coded for Rec2020 primaries, but the content itself will have been mastered for Rec709 or DCI-P3, thus leaving the extra gamut unused (ie it would look the same on a Rec 2020 display or a P3 display for example).

Like how black and white content is encoded as color, using Rec 709 primaries on Blu-ray.
Exactly. And to begin with, I'm not even expecting P3, meaning I'm expecting rec 709, until a majority of displays sold can do P3.
rak306 is online now  
post #1448 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:35 AM
Senior Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Do you really think UHD Bluray disc will be encoded at 2020? Don't worry Sir. When displays can do 2020, you won't have to rebuy a disc. Where exactly are the 2020 or wider masters going to come from to be coded for 2020 on the disc?
As stranger89 said, you can still have rec 709 or DCI-P3 color space and convert (without loss) to rec 2020. As rec 2020 is wider than either rec 709 or DCI-P3. So it could be (as the slide suggested) that UHD BD will encode to rec 2020 even when the underlying space is rec 709 (or P3). But then the player will have to convert back to the space of the UHD TV or projector. And of course there will be compromises when converting to rec 709 if the original source was P3.

This is no different than using the Academy Color Encoding System (ACES) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy...ncoding_System which has primaries outside of the human visual system. It contains all possible colors that humans can see (and some we can't see). Now they only encode what colors the camera sensors can record. But as sensors change, regardless of how good they get, the resulting color will fit into the space as long as it can be seen by humans.
rak306 is online now  
post #1449 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:39 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 585 671 2968
Posts: 10,997
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2129 Post(s)
Liked: 1142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Maybe I'll just use my VW600 with my Lumis to watch Blu rays for the next 5 years, skip 4K, and jump back in with the then new 8K projectors and SUHD disks !

I didn't get 40% off my new S Works Roubaix with Di2 and hydraulic disc brakes. Sometimes you just need to open your wallet to get what you want. Simple as that. But I tend to keep things a long time - nearly 6 years for my Lumis ( still throws a great picture ) - 14 years for my Toyota Tacoma.
The SL4? Sounds more fun than the kitchen cabinets I just bought. Cheaper also.

AV Geek for life. :) Call for advice and help.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1450 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:53 AM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
HDCP 2.2 – The State of the UHDTV Industry

Feb 3 Written by: John Sciacca " HDCP. Have there ever been four letters that have caused a larger collective shudder from custom integrators everywhere? It works, it doesn’t work, it works again. Often there is no rhyme, reason or understanding as to why.

Last week I wrote a blog titled, What Integrators Should Take Away from CES 2015, that included a section about HDCP 2.2 where I wrote, “a new version of this copy protection — called 2.2 — will be required for displaying UHD content, and if any part of the signal chain is not HDCP 2.2 compliant then there will be no 4K picture. Adding to the confusion is that products can be HDMI 2.0 certified but not HDCP 2.2.”


The takeaway was that as integrators we are expected to be at the forefront of information for our clients. Because when they buy a new 4K TV from us and hook up their (eventual) new 4K source, and get no picture, the first angry phone call is going to be to us. And it is likely going to include the phrase, “Why would you sell me a system that wouldn’t work?!?”

Admittedly the whole HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 issue is a very confusing and nebulous one. I have gone out of my way to research it, talked to industry experts, read spec sheets and chipset white papers, and I’m still not 100-percent certain on all aspects and intricacies of it.

The bottom line is that HDCP 2.2 is about protecting 4K content, and for a 4K image to work, it will have to pass through a chain of HDCP 2.2-certified and hand-shaking components. While there is currently only one true 4K source on the market – the Sony media player – there are more imminently on the horizon. For instance, the new 4K Joey from DISH is expected to be available this summer, 4K Blu-ray players will start appearing later this year, and ultimately we’ll witness the inevitable arrival of new cable boxes and K media players like Apple TV, Roku, and others. And if you want to view this 4K content, every device in your video chain must have HDCP 2.2.

One thing I found out for certain is that there is a real shortage of audio/video receivers that support HDCP 2.2 shortage in the 4K ecosystem of things we are selling RIGHT NOW. And because the receiver is the connection hub for virtually every system we install, and frequently relied on to send video to the display via a single HDMI cable, this is going to be the inevitable shortcoming in systems in the months to come.

To get some information about what is here and what is coming I reached out to multiple AV receiver manufacturers to ask which – if any – of their current receivers support HDCP 2.2, how many HDCP 2.2 inputs/outputs those models have, and if no models are currently available, when we will see the first models that DO support HDCP 2.2.

Here’s what they had to say:

Anthem “None of our current products use HDCP 2.2 but we look forward to providing support for 4K60 in 4:4:4 and BT2020 once the dust settles and UHD Blu-ray appears. The minimum HDCP 2.2 requirement doesn't cover all of the above and shopping by version number alone can lead to disappointment.”
— Nick Platsis, Anthem Product Manager

Denon and Marantz “No models currently [support HDCP 2.2]. Although we will be offering a free hardware upgrade to our flagship Denon AVR-X7200W and Marantz AV8802 products in the spring. [The upgrade will be for] all inputs except for the front [panel HDMI] in. And this is not the color/bandwidth limited 4K/2.2 input that you find on [some existing] products; this is full spec 4K60@4:4:4 color with HDCP 2.2. New D&M products (yet to be announced), shipping later this year will incorporate HDCP 2.2.” – Paul Belanger, Product Manager D+M Group

Harman Kardon "Our current range of Harman Kardon AVR does not support HDCP 2.2. Some models are HDMI 2.0 certified but without HDCP 2.2. Here are the details: AVR 1610S and AVR 1710S HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 1.4. Our next-generation product will support both HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, even if it is a bit early to provide an accurate date on availability of next generation. The first product will be a Soundbar, which we’re expecting to release in fall 2015 with other products following. As you probably know there are currently no source players available with 4K, HDCP 2.2 content, and this should not happen before the end of 2015 best case.” — Emmanuel Millot, Director Product Marketing, Home HARMAN International

Krell “Our Foundation 4K UHD has four HDCP 2.2 inputs out of 10 total and two HDMI outputs. We can handle 1080p60 4:4:4 with 12-bit Deep Color or 4K 60Hz 4:2:0 with 8-bit color (this is for any input, HDCP 2.2 is a separate issue). HDMI 2.0 specifies a maximum resolution of 4k 60Hz 4:4:4 but no parts exist yet to handle that (it’s twice the bandwidth of the current parts).” — Bill McKiegan, President, Krell Industries

McIntosh Did not respond to my information request.

Meridian Currently does not offer any products with HDCP 2.2 support and no statement about when they may do so.

NAD “With the ever increasing speed of innovation, ‘premature obsolescence’ is on the minds of many customers looking to upgrade their AV systems. Modular Design Construction, NAD’s innovative chassis design that allows all major digital circuits to be replaced to add new features and capabilities, allows for an easy and affordable upgrade path. A prime example of the benefits of MDC would be the current fast evolution of HDMI and its companion copy protection HDCP. NAD has taken the position that rather than rushing an ‘incomplete’ 4K video solution we will wait a little longer for the correct semiconductors and finalized firmware before offering our complete solution as an MDC Upgrade. When the Upgrade Module is available, owners of older NADs can also benefit by upgrading their existing AVR to HDMI 2.0. Customers purchasing our flagship AVP, the M17, have a coupon entitling them to a free upgrade when the new MDC Module ships later in 2015.” — Greg Stidsen, Director, Technology and Product Planning, Lenbrook International

Onkyo and Integra “The following product models are all HDCP 2.2 compliant, each with one HDMI input (CAB/SAT) and one HDMI output (OUT MAIN): Onkyo – TX-NR636, TX-NR737, TX-NR838, TX-NR1030, TX-NR3030, PR-SC5530, and HT-S7700; Integra – 30.6, 40.6, 50.6, 60.6, and 70.6, and pre-amp DHC-80.6.” — Kevin Brannan, Director of Marketing, ONKYO USA Corp.

Outlaw Audio “Presently we have one processor [and it] does not have HDCP 2.2. However, we are working on a step-up processor that will have Atmos, DTS-X, HDMI 2.0, and HDCP 2.2. How many inputs is still up in the air because of availability of just-announced chips. This is a moving target (like so many other announced technologies). Our schedule is ‘later in the year’; it is not imminent.”— Peter Tribeman, President, Outlaw Audio

Pioneer "The majority of our current AV receivers support full bandwidth (18Ggbps) HDMI 2.0, however they do not support HDCP 2.2. Moving forward Pioneer understands the need to support both full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 for compatibility with next-generation 4K sources and upcoming video technologies such as high dynamic range and expanded color gamut. Full details on our new line-up will be announced in the next few weeks." — Chris Walker, Director Product Planning and Marketing Pioneer Electronics

Rotel “There are no current Rotel products that support HDCP 2.2. I would say CES 2016 is a target, but our view is that without sources it's still a non-issue. The presumption, as well, is that future 2.2 sources will have dual outputs to maintain backward compatibility.” — Doug Henderson, President, B&W Group North America

Sony “The following models are currently in market and support HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2: STRZA1000ES (1 in / 1 out), STRZA2000ES (1 in / 1 out), STRZA3000ES (2 in / 2 out). We just announced two more models at CES – STRDN860 and STRDN1060 – that will support HDCP 2.2 and both models will have 1 in/1 out.” — Samantha Albright, Consumer & Brand Marketing, Sony

Yamaha“At this point, no Yamaha receivers are HDCP 2.2 compatible but we are closely viewing HDCP for future product implementation." — Yamaha spokesperson

Several manufacturers — and multiple Internet forums – pointed out that while some receivers currently available are touting both HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, these models are using a chipset only capable of supporting a lower bandwidth of 10.2Gbps (similar to HDMI 1.4) and not the full, maximum 18Gbps capability of HDMI 2.0. Specifically these chips won’t be able to handle 4K/60 with 4:4:4 color sampling, but are held to a bandwidth-limited 4:2:0 color space.

Beyond any potential future sources that may or may not utilize the full 18Gbps bandwidth – such as 4K Blu-ray players that will support high dynamic range and the BT.2020 color gamut as part of the spec – there is a source out right now that does: the Pioneer Elite BDP-88FD. This new flagship Blu-ray player’s video processor upscales content to Ultra HD 4K resolution (4K/60P/4:4:4/24-bit), and the upscaled video is output utilizing HDMI 2.0’s full 18GBPS bandwidth.

Because the most commonly used HDCP 2.2 chip right now is the Silicon Image SiL9679, I reached out to them to ask about the chip’s capabilities and what would be coming on the horizon.

“The SiL9679 supports 4K resolutions that include 4K2K 24, 25, and 30 frames per second,” stated Kristin Uchiyama, senior manager, global communications, Silicon Image. “In these resolutions, color support is 8-bit RGB/YCbCr 4:4:4, as well as 8/10/12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2. Four-K2K 50 and 60 frames per second color support is 8-bit 4:2:0. These are in addition to all of the standard 480/525/720/1080p resolutions that people have used for years.

“Our [new] SiL9777 [chip] supports the full 18Gbps rate of HDMI 2.0, which adds support for 4K 50/60. In these resolutions, color support is 8-bit RGB/YCbCr 4:4:4, as well as 8/10/12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2, and the 8-bit 4:2:0 mode,” Uchiyama added.

Because many of the comments about current model limitations specially mentioned Onkyo and Integra, I felt I would give a representative of those brands a chance to shed some light on their decision to go with this chip. "The chipset we use allows for HDMI 2.0, HDCP-2.2 copyright protection and Color Space 4:2:0,” stated Brian Sandifer, product manager for Onkyo & Integra. “We choose this chipset because all three of these actually exist and are now needed in the consumer Ultra HD space, and this is the only chipset that will support all three, which is currently available in the marketplace.

“So when HDCP-2.2 content is streamed through our AVR, it will result in both picture and sound; assuming of course that the display device is HDCP-2.2 compliant,” Sandifer continued. “Color Space 4:4:4 can eventually exist in the consumer space, but there is no content in existence to support it. If and when it ever does materialize (ie: ‘Deep Color’ for Blu-ray was in the spec but has never materialized) you will still, of course, need to be HDCP-2.2 compliant for the content to pass in full resolution, and you will have the option to turn off the 4:4:4 colorspace if devices down the line cannot support it (unlike HDCP 2.2, which you cannot turn off). Some other products are touting color space 4:4:4 capable. But, without being HDCP-2.2 compliant and with no content to support it, it is a bit of a moot point.”

Sandifer added that it’s a bit too early to discuss the specifics of next-generation AV receivers. “Typically we are fortunate enough to be on the forefront of new technology, hardware, processing, etc.,” he said, “so I would expect the same this year as new models start rolling out in a few months. We typically start rolling out entry-level products in March-April and transition the rest of the line over the next few months, culminating in the release of our top-end models in summer/fall."

While some manufacturers are hoping to dodge the HDCP 2.2 bullet by leaning on sources that will have dual outputs — one HDCP 2.2 for sending HDCP 2.2 protected video directly to the display, and another for sending non-HDCP 2.2 audio to the receiver – a la the Sony FMP-X10 server and the way some Blu-ray players handled 3D video, it’s clear that this won’t be the case for every source. For example, the upcoming 4K Joey will only include a single HDCP 2.2 HDMI output.

Compounding the potential problem is that an upgrade to HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 won’t be something that can be handled by a simple firmware or software update. It will require significant amounts of new hardware and would be an update that likely wouldn’t be able to be performed in the field. Beyond Denon and Marantz – who are offering complementary upgrades for customers purchasing the company’s respective flagship models – and NAD, whose unique Modular Design Construction allows for “cards” supporting new features to be easily added – no company has made any mention of an upgrade path short of purchasing a new model. In fact one manufacturer told me that it would cost them around $350 per unit to perform an upgrade. On the upside for retailers and dealers, this means that every receiver and processor currently on the market is about to become obsolete. On the downside, expect some awkward conversations from any customer that purchased a high-end piece recently.

It is likely that within the next one to two product cycles we’ll have a plethora of receivers to select from that will support full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 on all inputs and outputs. One manufacturer commented that he couldn’t see this not being ubiquitous at all budget points and on all models. But for now, the industry is in a definite state of transition. As an integrator, knowledge is power, and the more you know, the better prepared you’ll be able to help your customers make informed decisions that lead to black-screen-of-death situations.
wse is online now  
post #1451 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 11:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,338
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked: 681
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
As stranger89 said, you can still have rec 709 or DCI-P3 color space and convert (without loss) to rec 2020. As rec 2020 is wider than either rec 709 or DCI-P3. So it could be (as the slide suggested) that UHD BD will encode to rec 2020 even when the underlying space is rec 709 (or P3). But then the player will have to convert back to the space of the UHD TV or projector. And of course there will be compromises when converting to rec 709 if the original source was P3.
This kind of concerns me as conversions have been messed up before as we have seen.

DavidHir is online now  
post #1452 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:13 PM
Senior Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
This kind of concerns me as conversions have been messed up before as we have seen.
Yep, but it's just a 3x3 matrix multiply for each pixel.
DavidHir likes this.
rak306 is online now  
post #1453 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,386
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked: 411
Here is my take on this:

- rec2020 will not be used as a mastering gamut to start with, but simply as a wrapper.
- This means that the widest gamut available for each title, i.e P3/DCI for most titles released over the last ten years and all present and future titles for at last the next 5 years. I din't think many titles pre-DCI will get a re-release because I don't see studios using a bluray master, or investing in a new P3 or rec2020 master given how confidential UHD bluray is likely to be.
- the good news is that if our display can't display P3, the UHD bluray reader will convert on the fly the content to the capability of the display.
- when studios have to deliver rec2020 master for UHDTV, ie not before 2020, they will start to deliver UHD bluray titles with rec2020 content. Hopefully, by then, our displays will be able to display such a wide gamut.

So, as long as your whole chain is HDCP 2.2 compliant, here is what you'll get:

- rec709 displays like all the 4K sony except the vw1x00: P3 (on the disc, in a rec2020 wrapper) will be downconverted by the player to rec-709. Hopefully the 10 bits will be kept.
- p3 capable displays like the vw1x00 or the Epson LS10000: the content will be played in full quality (P3/10 bits).
- within 5 years, we'll start to see displays able to display rec2020, and UHD bluray titles will start get the wider gamut. I don't believe this will happen until 2020. The content will then be played ij native quality on rec2020 capable display, or will be downconverted by the player to P3/rec709 depending on the capabilities of less able displays.

Good news is that UHD blura discs should me mastered using the best master available at the time of release (P3 until 2020, rec2020 afterwards) so we should be able to make the most of the discs as we upgrade our displays.

Of course, this could be entirely wrong but that's what I expect to happen.
rak306 and DavidHir like this.
Manni01 is online now  
post #1454 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,338
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked: 681
At the end of the day, I think it will work out really well as far as implementation.

I just hope there is enough market support to keep UHD Blu going for years...but I think there is.

DavidHir is online now  
post #1455 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:36 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 21,375
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1291 Post(s)
Liked: 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
The SL4? Sounds more fun than the kitchen cabinets I just bought. Cheaper also.

Opening a wallet wide gets you just an empty feeling if your wallet is empty. Just sayin.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #1456 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 21,375
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1291 Post(s)
Liked: 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
As stranger89 said, you can still have rec 709 or DCI-P3 color space and convert (without loss) to rec 2020. As rec 2020 is wider than either rec 709 or DCI-P3. So it could be (as the slide suggested) that UHD BD will encode to rec 2020 even when the underlying space is rec 709 (or P3). But then the player will have to convert back to the space of the UHD TV or projector. And of course there will be compromises when converting to rec 709 if the original source was P3.

This is no different than using the Academy Color Encoding System (ACES) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy...ncoding_System which has primaries outside of the human visual system. It contains all possible colors that humans can see (and some we can't see). Now they only encode what colors the camera sensors can record. But as sensors change, regardless of how good they get, the resulting color will fit into the space as long as it can be seen by humans.


How can you convert from a smaller space to a wider space without introducing gross errors? If you are converting down from a wider space, there will also be losses 9all those colors outside the smaller space) but at least the colors within both spaces won't be lost or in error. The perimeter spaces of the smaller space would also have the colors outside that space moved to it.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is offline  
post #1457 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 12:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wco81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 4,910
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 415 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Sounds like 2015 is not the time to buy 4K products for most people.

Wait for second-generation HDMI 2/HDCP 2.2 products.
wco81 is online now  
post #1458 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:18 PM
Senior Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
How can you convert from a smaller space to a wider space without introducing gross errors?

....
Did you mean to say that, or the other way around? The problem is going from a large space to a smaller one, where a color may be outside the gammut of the smaller space.

For example, if you start with a rec 709 color, a simple 3x3 matrix multiply will convert it to the larger rec 2020 - without error (other than round off). If you go from the larger space to a smaller space, a different 3x3 matrix is used, and it may result in a number outside the space (that is - clipped). So what do you do? Adobe photoshop has different choices for this (e.g. lowest error, lowest perceived error), but they are compromises, and are not perfect.

Now if you think about it, unless you control the lighting, when you take a picture (or movie), you are already (potentially) "loosing color" information, as you are converting nature to a limited color space.

Now for movies - hopefully the cinematographer is controlling all of this, but I wonder. Some of these digital movie cameras (e.g. Sony F65) have a very wide capture gamut. So do you think when they light the scenes they say - wait - that green is out of the P3 gamut, we need to change the lighting? I don't know, maybe they do.
rak306 is online now  
post #1459 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:23 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
opening a wallet wide gets you just an empty feeling if your wallet is empty. Just sayin.
I know the feeling!

Last edited by wse; 02-03-2015 at 01:27 PM.
wse is online now  
post #1460 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 18,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 774 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
How can you convert from a smaller space to a wider space without introducing gross errors?
Simple, you just don't use the whole gamut. It's like how you fit a scope (2.39:1) movie in OAR on a Blu-ray disc that's specified to have a resolution of 1920x1080 (1.78:1), you just don't use the whole thing, you fill out the 1920x800 or so pixels that the 2.39:1 movie fills and leave the rest unused.

To further the analogy, later then, when you crop it back to 2.39:1, you don't lose anything since you just cropped off the unused area.

The same thing applies to gamut, Rec 2020 specifies an area (gamut) that is larger than Rec709 or DCI-P3, so when you go to create your UHD Blu-ray, you just run it through a toll that "pads" the higher saturations so they go unused. It's no different than a black and white movie, or a movie with muted colors today in Rec709.

Nobody here (and I hope nobody at the studios) is talking about stretching P3 or 709 content to fill out a 2020 gamut, that would be terrible and cause lots of errors.

Quote:
If you are converting down from a wider space, there will also be losses 9all those colors outside the smaller space) but at least the colors within both spaces won't be lost or in error. The perimeter spaces of the smaller space would also have the colors outside that space moved to it.
It's actually a lot harder to reduce the gamut than to pad a smaller one out to fit a larger one. You run into problems like, do you clip hard at the edge, or do you try to do it softly. Like clipping white/black. If you clip hard you can end up with large areas of solid color that could be unseamly. But SMPTE is working on (or already has defined) how to remap wider gamuts to smaller ones.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #1461 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:25 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Sounds like 2015 is not the time to buy 4K products for most people.

Wait for second-generation HDMI 2/HDCP 2.2 products.
YES exactly

I am done with the early adopter it is way too expensive, can't afford that anymore, wish I could it's so much fun but after loosing so much money being an early adopter, I just don't have the means any more
wse is online now  
post #1462 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 18,499
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 774 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Sounds like 2015 is not the time to buy 4K products for most people.

Wait for second-generation HDMI 2/HDCP 2.2 products.
Today, IMO yes, but "full" HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 products should be out this year (2015), and I think by CEDIA we should have a good understanding of what the situation will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Now for movies - hopefully the cinematographer is controlling all of this, but I wonder. Some of these digital movie cameras (e.g. Sony F65) have a very wide capture gamut. So do you think when they light the scenes they say - wait - that green is out of the P3 gamut, we need to change the lighting? I don't know, maybe they do.
I believe that's what they do when they "grade" colors, they go through and make sure everything looks "right" on the specified target (ie DCI).

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #1463 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:30 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,912
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Today, IMO yes, but "full" HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 products should be out this year (2015), and I think by CEDIA we should have a good understanding of what the situation will be.
CEDIA 2015 predictions

The following brands will have Full HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2

- JVC & Epson release true 4K projectors, Sony becomes low price leaer with plastic lens

- Marantz & Denon will also have DTS:X

- None of the high end will have those Krell, McIntosh, Classe maybe 2016 maybe
wse is online now  
post #1464 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 01:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Lest we forget...(not to confuse things further)..."UHD" is not just a 4K thing. It also encompasses 8K and 16K -- resolutions which will enable significantly better gamut and contrast possibilities. More reason to stand pat for now or to buy a good 2K LED projector with an eye toward "upgrading" in 3 to 4 years...after the 4K era (with all its teething issues) will have run its course and we are delivered into the waiting comfort of 8K arms.
Pete is offline  
post #1465 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 02:27 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,852
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2130 Post(s)
Liked: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Exactly. And to begin with, I'm not even expecting P3, meaning I'm expecting rec 709, until a majority of displays sold can do P3.
They already have the P3 masters ready to go, so I don't think they'll go through the trouble of downconverting to Rec. 709 only to re-map back to Rec. 2020 if they don't have to. There won't be any Rec. 2020 masters ready for quite some time.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is online now  
post #1466 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 02:31 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 10,852
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2130 Post(s)
Liked: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Lest we forget...(not to confuse things further)..."UHD" is not just a 4K thing. It also encompasses 8K and 16K -- resolutions which will enable significantly better gamut and contrast possibilities. More reason to stand pat for now or to buy a good 2K LED projector with an eye toward "upgrading" in 3 to 4 years...after the 4K era (with all its teething issues) will have run its course and we are delivered into the waiting comfort of 8K arms.
No way. 8k is really not going to happen in any big way for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Have fun waiting while everyone else enjoys 2160p.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is online now  
post #1467 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 03:45 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 585 671 2968
Posts: 10,997
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2129 Post(s)
Liked: 1142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Opening a wallet wide gets you just an empty feeling if your wallet is empty. Just sayin.
It is empty now.

AV Geek for life. :) Call for advice and help.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1468 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 04:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,912
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 699 Post(s)
Liked: 556
It seems to me like HDPC 2.2 and 30hz 4:2:2 / 0UHD is about all you'll need for 99% of UHD Blurays, which is the only reason to have HDCP at all.

4:4:4 IMO is only useful for using your TV as a PC monitor. And if you're doing that, why aren't you plugging in your HDMI 2.0 cable directly to your TV and your secondary HDMI to the AVR that is more bandwidth limited? If you're using a Bluray UHD player that's out later this year, there will be zero content that's not 4:2:0. Of course, that doesn't mean there won't be, but IMO I'm gonna wait until HDMI 2.1 comes out because I really want UHD 3D and then build my final Bluray collection from there.

I do get wholesale - 30% from work, so I'm set for later this year picking up every UHD Bluray that's worth owning, even to the point of giving away my older Blus to friends and family.

Streaming IMO is garbage quality, I refuse to play that game. If I'm getting a movie online, it's a download or a rip from a Bluray source. I only have about a dozen Blurays but I'm waiting for UHD before starting a real collection
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #1469 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 04:52 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: 585 671 2968
Posts: 10,997
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2129 Post(s)
Liked: 1142
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
It seems to me like HDPC 2.2 and 30hz 4:2:2 / 0UHD is about all you'll need for 99% of UHD Blurays, which is the only reason to have HDCP at all.

4:4:4 IMO is only useful for using your TV as a PC monitor. And if you're doing that, why aren't you plugging in your HDMI 2.0 cable directly to your TV and your secondary HDMI to the AVR that is more bandwidth limited? If you're using a Bluray UHD player that's out later this year, there will be zero content that's not 4:2:0. Of course, that doesn't mean there won't be, but IMO I'm gonna wait until HDMI 2.1 comes out because I really want UHD 3D and then build my final Bluray collection from there.

I do get wholesale - 30% from work, so I'm set for later this year picking up every UHD Bluray that's worth owning, even to the point of giving away my older Blus to friends and family.

Streaming IMO is garbage quality, I refuse to play that game. If I'm getting a movie online, it's a download or a rip from a Bluray source. I only have about a dozen Blurays but I'm waiting for UHD before starting a real collection
I see 2.1 as a long way off.

AV Geek for life. :) Call for advice and help.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #1470 of 2712 Old 02-03-2015, 06:03 PM
Senior Member
 
monstosity12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry if this has been asked before but cant find.


Will HDMI 2.0 do 4k 3D blu rays? I read that it does but was not included in the spec sheet or something like that.
monstosity12 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off