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post #1531 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

My understanding is that in order to achieve the coordinates Rec2020 specifies, essentially requires very pure, nearly single frequency primaries. Remember how you lose a significant amount of light going from Rec709 to DCI-P3 on something like the VW1100, due to using filters that have much less bandwidth.
True, but by using multiple laser diodes,at slightly different colors, one can achieve the wider effective BW. I'm not sure, but aren't quantum dots excited by laser? That seems like another method of using laser power with a mix of quantum dots at slightly different colors to achieve a bandwidth. JK was blaming the spec and it seems to me there is nothing wrong with it, it just comes down to implementation.

On a related topic - I hesitate to suggest this, as it is likely to generate a flood of - you can't do that responses. Most LCD TVs and projectors have built in color primaries that are wider than rec 709. Then to achieve rec 709, a mix of these primaries (via LUT or 3x3 matrix mult) is used. Now these primaries are not as wide as DCI-P3, but they wider than rec 709.

So imagine one programmed their "Lumicon 4k 10 bit" (I know it does not exist) processor to do the following:

Take DCI-P3 color space movies (that have been trans coded to rec 2020) , and convert them - not into rec 709, but the native color space of the TV. This would have 2 benefits:.

1) you get maximum lumen output, and
2) the color space is wider, and closer to P3.

The only downside is for p3 colors in the source material that fall outside of your TV/projector's native color.

Oh, BTW, one can skip the imaginary lumigen processor, and build this function into the TV/projector, as the manufacturer already knows the color of its primaries. And over time, as they actually achieve P3 or greater primaries, it just gets more accurate with no change to the user settings.
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post #1532 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
True, but by using multiple laser diodes,at slightly different colors, one can achieve the wider effective BW. I'm not sure, but aren't quantum dots excited by laser? That seems like another method of using laser power with a mix of quantum dots at slightly different colors to achieve a bandwidth. JK was blaming the spec and it seems to me there is nothing wrong with it, it just comes down to implementation.
The question I have is, wouldn't this reduce the saturation, and thus resulting in a display that wouldn't cover the entire 2020 gamut? My understanding was that on the CIE chart, the curved top line represents single wavelength colors, see here, with labels for the wavelengths:

"The curved edge of the gamut is called the spectral locus and corresponds to monochromatic light (each point representing a pure hue of a single wavelength), with wavelengths listed in nanometers. The straight edge on the lower part of the gamut is called the line of purples. These colors, although they are on the border of the gamut, have no counterpart in monochromatic light. Less saturated colors appear in the interior of the figure with white at the center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space

So if you start adding more wavelengths to the colors, it will start desaturating them and thus "pulling" the primary position in towards the center, resulting in less than full coverage. Of course this leads to two questions:
1) Given the "straightness" of the curve at the R, G, B points, would a bit of "spreading" of bandwidth there significantly affect saturation/coverage
2) Would a little bit of bandwidth spreading even have a substantial effect on solving the color perception problem JK talks about.

It would be interesting to see an article about the monochromatic color issue JK talks about.

On a related topic - I hesitate to suggest this, as it is likely to generate a flood of - you can't do that responses. Most LCD TVs and projectors have built in color primaries that are wider than rec 709. Then to achieve rec 709, a mix of these primaries (via LUT or 3x3 matrix mult) is used. Now these primaries are not as wide as DCI-P3, but they wider than rec 709.

Quote:
So imagine one programmed their "Lumicon 4k 10 bit" (I know it does not exist) processor to do the following:

Take DCI-P3 color space movies (that have been trans coded to rec 2020) , and convert them - not into rec 709, but the native color space of the TV. This would have 2 benefits:.

1) you get maximum lumen output, and
2) the color space is wider, and closer to P3.

The only downside is for p3 colors in the source material that fall outside of your TV/projector's native color.
Oh, it's definitely possible, this is how color management on PCs works. When you profile your PC monitor, it doesn't (necessarily) pull the primaries into specific points, it creates a map of the displays capabilities, so that when you have a source with a known colorspace (ie a picture on a website that is sRGB), it can be accurately mapped into your displays capabilities.

Here's a short discussion from Adobe:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/creative...55E987DFB.html
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post #1533 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I'm not sure, but aren't quantum dots excited by laser?
Quantum dots can be excited by ultraviolett light. They can also be excited by electric current, or in the case of the latest Sony/Samsung Quantum Dot LCD displays, by a blue LED backlight. You can design Quantum Dots so that they create a nice wavelength coverage around any primaries you want. No big problem, I've been told by a chemical student yesterday. Could be that the current blue LED backlight + Quantum Dot technology has some limitations, though. Probably driving the Quantum Dots with UV light or direct current would be better (but more difficult to do).
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post #1534 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I understand that, my question was, we already have very pure (very nearly single frequency bandwidth) light sources, ie LED DLPs. And as you note, the issue Joe Kane is talking about is related to that very issue. So if it is this huge problem JK is trying to make it out to be, why don't we hear about that with current LED projectors? If the issue truly is the primaries (red/green/blue) being too pure, then the issue should be independent of what gamut is calibrated for since calibration does not change the bandwidth of the primaries, it merely mixes in other primaries.



My understanding is that in order to achieve the coordinates Rec2020 specifies, essentially requires very pure, nearly single frequency primaries. Remember how you lose a significant amount of light going from Rec709 to DCI-P3 on something like the VW1100, due to using filters that have much less bandwidth.

It all starts with the bandwidth of the light generator. With bulbs, you filter with dichromatic filters which are not that efficient at blocking the frequencies surrounding the main pass point of the filter. so we have lots of light surrounding the primary points of rec 709 and P3 generated by the bulb and passed by the filters. With narrow bandwidth emitters like leds and laser diodes there is not much light on either side of the primary frequency of the emitter. Regardless of any filter after the emitter, there is really not much light the filter could pass because of any inefficiency. As Stanger points out (and which I didn't know) they are just pure single wave lengths at the top. Of course 2020 isn't a curve at the top and I don't know if any of the greens at the top are single wavelengths but they are probably approaching being single wavelengths. As primaries approach the limits of human vision, the problem of individuals seeing those colors differently worsens (I think). Now, how much of a problem really is it? There are solutions by bundling emitters with slightly different frequencies than the primary emitters. But regardless, if there is a problem, so what? How many colors would be close to any primary or line connecting the primaries that might lie close to the limits of human visability? I just don't know how real a problem if a solution isn't employed.

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post #1535 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The question I have is, wouldn't this reduce the saturation, and thus resulting in a display that wouldn't cover the entire 2020 gamut? My understanding was that on the CIE chart, the curved top line represents single wavelength colors, see here, with labels for the wavelengths:

"The curved edge of the gamut is called the spectral locus and corresponds to monochromatic light (each point representing a pure hue of a single wavelength), with wavelengths listed in nanometers. The straight edge on the lower part of the gamut is called the line of purples. These colors, although they are on the border of the gamut, have no counterpart in monochromatic light. Less saturated colors appear in the interior of the figure with white at the center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space

So if you start adding more wavelengths to the colors, it will start desaturating them and thus "pulling" the primary position in towards the center, resulting in less than full coverage. Of course this leads to two questions:
1) Given the "straightness" of the curve at the R, G, B points, would a bit of "spreading" of bandwidth there significantly affect saturation/coverage
2) Would a little bit of bandwidth spreading even have a substantial effect on solving the color perception problem JK talks about.

It would be interesting to see an article about the monochromatic color issue JK talks about.

On a related topic - I hesitate to suggest this, as it is likely to generate a flood of - you can't do that responses. Most LCD TVs and projectors have built in color primaries that are wider than rec 709. Then to achieve rec 709, a mix of these primaries (via LUT or 3x3 matrix mult) is used. Now these primaries are not as wide as DCI-P3, but they wider than rec 709.

Oh, it's definitely possible, this is how color management on PCs works. When you profile your PC monitor, it doesn't (necessarily) pull the primaries into specific points, it creates a map of the displays capabilities, so that when you have a source with a known colorspace (ie a picture on a website that is sRGB), it can be accurately mapped into your displays capabilities.

Here's a short discussion from Adobe:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/creative...55E987DFB.html

I think your desaturation argument of bundles ay break down because we are talking about 2020 which is a triangle space not a the pure frequencies boundary of the IEE chart,

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post #1536 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I think your desaturation argument of bundles ay break down because we are talking about 2020 which is a triangle space not a the pure frequencies boundary of the IEE chart,
I guess that's what I'm trying to understand. The way I thought it worked, was basically as you get closer and closer to the edge of the CIE "shape" to the outside curve, the color gets closer and closer to a single wavelength. For example Rec2020 Green is actually on the curve (vs within it like 709 and P3), then it is a truly monochromatic color, meaning it is, and can only be made of a single wavelength. If you start adding additional wavelengths to it, that will necessarily move it away from it's specified position.

I found a neat little interactive CIE 1930 Chromcity diagram:
http://www.biyee.net/color-science/c...icity-diagram/

Going by the Monochrome light slider and the xy coordinates for RGB on Wikipedia, The Red, Green, and Blue primaries for Rec 2020 are in fact on the edge of the curve and are thus single wavelength, monochromatic colors (x y coordinates followed by wavelength):
Red: 0.708 0.292 630nm
Green: 0.170 0.797 523nm
Blue: 0.131 0.046 467nm

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post #1537 of 2531 Old 02-07-2015, 08:11 PM
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I see what you mean. Looking at the chart it would seem that limiting ones self to a red green and blue primary not all visible colors could be reproduced. For example, a lower wavelength green could have been chosen to increase the greens that could be reprocduced at the costs of a lot of yellow and some green.

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post #1538 of 2531 Old 02-08-2015, 02:56 AM
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If displays are going to use lasers to create very narrow frequency primaries, and use varying amounts of those primaries to display all their color gamut, then are they not going to risk running into problems with human perception of color due to using very narrow band lasers. Things like inhibiting or increasing chromatic adaption so altering the perception of colors or/and causing chromatic luminance effect the Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect so altering the perception of the colors. Also does it not run the possible risk of more variation in viewer color perecption, variation in human visual sensisitivity to very narrow frequency stimulous, rather than a very broad frequency stimulous where human visusl sensitivity might average out more. And will it look more natural and life like due to the wider color gamut and ability to have more saturated colors or will it look less natural and life like, too vivid or hyper real, as visual stimulation from the real world presumably is mostly broad frequency, not narrow band lasers. I maybe mistaken but I think in projectors, Xeon lamp based projectors have broad color primaries and are said to produce nice natural colors.
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post #1539 of 2531 Old 02-08-2015, 07:06 AM
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If displays are going to use lasers to create very narrow frequency primaries, and use varying amounts of those primaries to display all their color gamut, then are they not going to risk running into problems with human perception of color due to using very narrow band lasers. Things like inhibiting or increasing chromatic adaption so altering the perception of colors or/and causing chromatic luminance effect the Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect so altering the perception of the colors. Also does it not run the possible risk of more variation in viewer color perecption, variation in human visual sensisitivity to very narrow frequency stimulous, rather than a very broad frequency stimulous where human visusl sensitivity might average out more.
This is the issue Joe Kane is talking about, but I'm skeptical as to how big of an issue this is, considering we already have LED projectors with very wide, very pure primaries and we've not heard issues/complaints about them. I wonder if this is more of a theoretical than a practical problem. I'd be curious to see some real technical data on the issue rather than just the sensationalist talk from Joe and the like.

Quote:
And will it look more natural and life like due to the wider color gamut and ability to have more saturated colors or will it look less natural and life like, too vivid or hyper real, as visual stimulation from the real world presumably is mostly broad frequency, not narrow band lasers. I maybe mistaken but I think in projectors, Xeon lamp based projectors have broad color primaries and are said to produce nice natural colors.
Well that's all up to the content creator. Outside of potential color perception issues noted above, the purity of the primaries has no effect on the perception of color, that's the whole point of the CIE color system. You can reproduce any color with any other colors, so long as they both stimulate the receptors in the eye the same way. So how real or unreal something will look in Rec2020 will be up to the content creator and how they choose to make use of the gamut.

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post #1540 of 2531 Old 02-08-2015, 12:21 PM
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Are these also issues with emissive displays like OLED?
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post #1541 of 2531 Old 02-08-2015, 01:32 PM
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Yes. But OLEDs can not come even close to achieving rec2020. Oleds are not very different than plasma tvs.

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post #1542 of 2531 Old 02-08-2015, 02:03 PM
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Are these also issues with emissive displays like OLED?
Currently NOTHING in the consumer (and arguably the commercial) market can create a REC2020 color gamut. This includes LEDs, OLEDs, Quantum Dot, CCFL, Plasma, UHP lamps, Xenon lamps, and phosphor wheel/laser illumination. The deficiency runs the gamut (pun intended).

There needs to be alterations and further development into some of these technologies for REC2020 to become feasible. Sony has a prototype 4K OLED that they're working on that they claim should be able to reach REC2020. But this display is intended for professional use so it may be a number of years before we see anything in the consumer world that can support REC2020, but then again something very well may end up in our laps next year. We simply don't know when it will happen, we just know there's nothing out today that supports it.

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Don't the Sim2 Nero 3's claim Rec 2020? Or most of it?

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post #1544 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 07:39 AM
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Don't the Sim2 Nero 3's claim Rec 2020? Or most of it?
That was DP's 4K Insight projector and it comes close, but still off. I don't remember any other projector claiming REC2020.

It's in range with most other LED projectors, but again, doesn't quite get there. I made this graphic a while back and as you can see, not even DP's own marketing tries to say it fully gets there:


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post #1545 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Don't the Sim2 Nero 3's claim Rec 2020? Or most of it?
SIM2 claim a color gamut for the NERO 3 of 115% of NTSC. How would that translate to color space coverage relative to 2020 or P3?
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post #1546 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 11:55 AM
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That was DP's 4K Insight projector and it comes close, but still off. I don't remember any other projector claiming REC2020.

It's in range with most other LED projectors, but again, doesn't quite get there. I made this graphic a while back and as you can see, not even DP's own marketing tries to say it fully gets there:

I suspect that would be good enough. While it's not the full rec 2020, it covers most real world colors. So as long as there is a mechanism for calibration, I suspect this would look great for any source currently available, and all (movie) sources for many years to come.
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post #1547 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
SIM2 claim a color gamut for the NERO 3 of 115% of NTSC. How would that translate to color space coverage relative to 2020 or P3?



Compared to Rec. 709, NTSC has more saturated green, a little more red saturation and a similar saturated blue, but with hue shifted a little. Compared to DCI-P3, NTSC has similar green saturation but with the hue shifted, and with less saturated red and blue primaries.

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post #1548 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I suspect that would be good enough. While it's not the full rec 2020, it covers most real world colors. So as long as there is a mechanism for calibration, I suspect this would look great for any source currently available, and all (movie) sources for many years to come.

Rec2020 is still a long way off from covering all real world colors. That isn't the issue. The DP gamut is close enough because it comes very close to full coverage of 2020. I doubt one could see any difference between what the DP machine covers vs the same machine but covering the full 2020.

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post #1549 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 04:00 PM
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Question

It's a shame that devices haven't been made to support "in-between resolutions" as standard.

It may not be as good as 4K but this may be a fair compromise..

Code:
UHD 2160p 10-Bit 60fps-3D/120fps-2D
-------------------------------
3840*2160  :  Calc of Total Pixels
8294400*30  :  Calc Of Total Pixels x Total Bit-Depth
248832000*120  :  Calc Of Total Pixel Bits * Frames Per Second
29859840000/1024  :  Conversion Of Bits/s to Kb/s
29160000/1024  :  Conversion Of Kb/s to Mb/s
28476.5625/1024  :  Conversion Of Mb/s to Gb/s
--------------------------------
27.80914306640625  :  Final Gbps  "TOO MUCH!"


3K 1728p 10-Bit 60fps-3D/120fps-2D
-------------------------------
3072*1728  :  Calc of Total Pixels
5308416*30  :  Calc Of Total Pixels x Total Bit-Depth
159252480*120  :  Calc Of Total Pixel Bits * Frames Per Second
19110297600/1024  :  Conversion Of Bits/s to Kb/s
18662400/1024  :  Conversion Of Kb/s to Mb/s
18225/1024  :  Conversion Of Mb/s to Gb/s
--------------------------------
17.7978515625  :  Final Gbps  "NOT BAD.."


3.4K 1890p 10-Bit 48fps-3D/96fps-2D
-------------------------------
3360*1890  :  Calc of Total Pixels
6350400*30  :  Calc Of Total Pixels x Total Bit-Depth
190512000*95.90400  :  Calc Of Total Pixel Bits * Frames Per Second
18270862848/1024  :  Conversion Of Bits/s to Kb/s
17842639.5/1024  :  Conversion Of Kb/s to Mb/s
17424.45263671875/1024  :  Conversion Of Mb/s to Gb/s
--------------------------------
17.01606702804565  :  Final Gbps  "JUST RIGHT =D"

But then I think it is possibly better that they hold off for now while the standards evolve; and then do these things to their full potential when it is viable.

Maybe it would have been worth waiting until HDMI hit 28Gbps+ or perhaps it would have been good to establish a Dual-HDMI standard for consumers who wished to use things to their full potential.

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post #1550 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I suspect that would be good enough. While it's not the full rec 2020, it covers most real world colors. So as long as there is a mechanism for calibration, I suspect this would look great for any source currently available, and all (movie) sources for many years to come.
I think for most people they'd be fine with it. I'm not a color nazi, like some of the other members here. As long as skin tones look "normal" I'm usually okay. Lately though, I've been using a Lumagen Radiance XD/ChromaPure/Minolta CL-200 and have been putting all the projectors through an auto-calibration before checking them out and doing A/B comparisons. I like the results and can definitely see the benefits to a full D65 greyscale/color/gamma calibration and what it does to the image.

I suspect with some modifications or some type of extra filtering we can achieve full REC2020 with LEDs. Though, with lasers coming out what happens if they can't reach REC2020? Do we switch back to LEDs and hope for some higher output LEDs?

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post #1551 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Rec2020 is still a long way off from covering all real world colors.
I based that comment on this article:
http://dot-color.com/category/color-gamut-standards/
which suggests that rec 2020 encompasses most real world colors.

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
... The DP gamut is close enough because it comes very close to full coverage of 2020. I doubt one could see any difference between what the DP machine covers vs the same machine but covering the full 2020.
Agreed.
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post #1552 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 05:25 PM
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The colors that the human eye can see are the colors on the chart. To me, the chart is the universe of real world colors and roughly estimating with my eye and not using an integrator to measure the area within the 2020 triangle and devide that by the xhart area, I would guess that rec 2020 gives us about 80% of the visible colors.

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post #1553 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 05:33 PM
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Interestingly enough, if you watched the recent Home Theater Geeks episode with Joe Kane, Joe mentioned that REC709 represents overwhelmingly most of the colors that our cameras capture. This makes sense considering it takes up most of the middle of the CIE chart. I think most would be happy with REC709 and P3 for now even if it takes another 5+ years to get source content that's real REC2020.

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post #1554 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The colors that the human eye can see are the colors on the chart. To me, the chart is the universe of real world colors and roughly estimating with my eye and not using an integrator to measure the area within the 2020 triangle and devide that by the xhart area, I would guess that rec 2020 gives us about 80% of the visible colors.
Well what does "real world" mean? In the context of the article I referenced, they are talking about what you will see outside in the real world, not what can be created in a lab.

Now I agree with you, what we can see is what is on the chart. And go to time square, and you will see colors that are on the edge of the chart. I take night sky astro pictures and the red h-alpha emission line is the most prominent color in the night sky - and it is a pure single wavelength - so that is certainly real world. That red can be seen by humans, and is not in rec 2020 (it usually not even captured - it gets cut off by the IR filter).

But the author's point is there is a gamut of colors that encompasses most of the colors needed for TV/movies reproduction (Pointer's gamut) this gamut fits in rec 2020 .

And so I say what we see in rec 2020 is large enough IMHO.
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post #1555 of 2531 Old 02-09-2015, 08:18 PM
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How do you and others think the committee decided on the primary points of 2020. the green point was the only point I suspect under debate. It had to be chosen so that P3 would be covered in its entirety along the GR line and red had to be chosen also to include the P3 red point,

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
How do you and others think the committee decided on the primary points of 2020. the green point was the only point I suspect under debate. It had to be chosen so that P3 would be covered in its entirety along the GR line and red had to be chosen also to include the P3 red point,
I have no clue. I had not even heard of rec 2020 before seeing it mentioned here regarding UHD blu-ray.
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post #1557 of 2531 Old 02-11-2015, 06:43 PM
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I suspect which green was chosen as the rec. 2020 primary was chosen in large part based on what they thought you could reasonably expect to get in a professional display either now or in the near future. There is no point in choosing a green wavelength that is unlikely to ever be reproduced with a low cost laser. Also see my reference to cie 1976 below.

I would guess rec2020 is being chosen for UHD BD to future proof rather than because the studios are screaming to get more colors available to them. Better to have more points available than fewer. As has been stated, it is easier to map a small color space onto a larger one than to map a large one onto a smaller one.

I for one don't really care about the missing colors on the fringe. Most of them would only show up in a movie once in a blue moon, if that, even IF the recording device had all human detectable colours at it's fingertips. Even though LED will NOT encompass the entirety of rec. 2020 I would be quite happy with an LED projector provided it can be set to accurately display the rec. 2020 colors of which it is capable, and just map the ones it is NOT capable of to the edge of what it can do. Or at least come close.

Also, that cie 1931 chart is standard, but a better one, IMO, is 1976
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...n/cie1976.html
which shows colors equidistant based on perception.
If you look at the triangle created by the primary wavelengths (630, 532, 467, at least according to wikipedia) used for rec. 2020, you see it encompasses a lot more of what a human can perceive in the "green" area and gives up more than you'd expect in the "red" and "blue" (or purple, if you prefer) areas. You can decide for yourself how "important" those missing "red" and "blue/purple" colours are to your viewing experience. I think I can live without them. But then I can live without those extra hundreds of channels that the Atmos metadata would give me also.

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post #1558 of 2531 Old 02-13-2015, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
ITU roadmap...

ok so this is a little cheesy but this chart just got me all hot.
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The ITU thinks we'll be "beyond" 8K by 2021?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The ITU thinks we'll be "beyond" 8K by 2021?
better to be prepared than where we are now which is playing catch up.
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