Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 58 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1711 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
So you are saying that we don't have to worry about HDCP 2.2 protected content when 1) HDCP 2.2 hasn't been cracked and 2) we don't even know which protection it will include to prevent the content to be ripped from the disc in the first place (hint: it's unlikely to be ones that have already been cracked like AACS or BD+). How do you get that main movie file for these unlicensed players to play until these protections are cracked?


Basically you were telling someone not to worry about a new protection which has been designed to prevent people like you who circumvent the old version using tools on a PC, based on the fact that tools exist to circumvent an protection which is being replaced with a new one precisely for this reason?


Either you are able to play HDCP 2.2 protected content right now, so please list the tools allowing you to do so, or you're not and you're just full of hot air.


Telling someone he'll be fine doing with UHD Bluray what you're doing with bluray (he never mentioned using a PC by the way), forgetting about HDCP 2.2 is just baloney.


At least until UHD Bluray's protections are cracked - not the case yet, as it's not even been released - and the person asking this question is happy to use a PC as his main source, which isn't what was implied in the question.
When you playback a media file in MPC-HC or other media file players it isn't tied in with HDCP. Your graphics card does the handshake but it doesn't talk to the display about the specific video feed being sent. When playing back the main MT2S file in MPC-HC, the HDMI port on my PC doesn't know it's sending blu-ray content to my display. This is why there is no issue playing back blu-ray on a PC. It doesn't work the way you're trying to imply. Yes, you're right that we'll have to wait if UHD Blu-ray doesn't use BD+ for encryption, but that won't take long to crack. They claimed BD+ was uncrackable and iirc it only took like 6 months to crack. I'll say it again, if you use an HTPC for media playback, granted you can bypass the encryption on the disc when it comes, you'll have no issues using MPC-HC or JRiver for media playback.

If you want to say "no" again, please enlighten me as to the specifics surrounding your reasoning. HDCP isn't tied in with the video content itself, as in the media file doesn't have HDCP handshaking information muxed in with it. It's just the HDMI port that has this protection and if you have a device that isn't purpose built for one function, aka a PC, and can make a handshake no matter the content, aka a PC, you'll have no issues playing back media files. My HTPC was able to connect to Mark's 1100ES and playback blu-ray and other 4K content without issue.

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post #1712 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
When you playback a media file in MPC-HC or other media file players it isn't tied in with HDCP. Your graphics card does the handshake but it doesn't talk to the display about the specific video feed being sent. When playing back the main MT2S file in MPC-HC, the HDMI port on my PC doesn't know it's sending blu-ray content to my display. This is why there is no issue playing back blu-ray on a PC. It doesn't work the way you're trying to imply. Yes, you're right that we'll have to wait if UHD Blu-ray doesn't use BD+ for encryption, but that won't take long to crack. They claimed BD+ was uncrackable and iirc it only took like 6 months to crack. I'll say it again, if you use an HTPC for media playback, granted you can bypass the encryption on the disc when it comes, you'll have no issues using MPC-HC or JRiver for media playback.

If you want to say "no" again, please enlighten me as to the specifics surrounding your reasoning. HDCP isn't tied in with the video content itself, as in the media file doesn't have HDCP handshaking information muxed in with it. It's just the HDMI port that has this protection and if you have a device that isn't purpose built for one function, aka a PC, and can make a handshake no matter the content, aka a PC, you'll have no issues playing back media files. My HTPC was able to connect to Mark's 1100ES and playback blu-ray and other 4K content without issue.
Your PC was able to play content protected by OLD protections which have been cracked. And the "other 4K content" you played was unprotected.


Because they have been cracked, NEW protections have been designed, and one of them is HDCP 2.2. You are only able to play protected bluray content on your PC because the encryption protections have been cracked, allowing the video content streams to be accessed by the unlicensed players you mention, either directly form the disc or copied to the hard drive. Without tools circumventing these protections, your unlicensed players can't access the protected content.


To recap:


1) the original question never mentioned using a PC
2) you have no idea what the protections will be on UHD Bluray, and how long it will take to crack them, or even if they will be cracked.


Telling someone that they will be fine to play UHD Bluray protected content on an older 1080p non HDCP 2.2 compliant screen is baloney, first because it was never mentioned this would be from a PC, second because you are assuming that these new protections will be cracked. Who cares about what you are able to do today, with old content, on a PC? That's not the point that was discussed.


Remember, this is AV Science. We have to be precise on everything. But all is fine because your mistake is corrected in the end.
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post #1713 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:49 AM
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This might be nitpicking, but JFWIW: HDCP is a protection protocol between two HDMI ports. The video data is encpryted with HDCP by the HDMI output port and decrypted by the HDMI input port, so to say. HDCP doesn't have much to do with which protection the source is using. Of course the source device can require a certain HDCP version to be available and decide not to output anything without it. But Blu-Ray or UHD Blu-Ray itself is not directly protected with HDCP. Practically this means: HDCP does not *have* to be cracked for playback on HTPCs to work. For HTPC playback we either need a licensed player (like "PowerDVD for UHD-BluRay"), or the content protection of the source disc would have to be cracked. Which is not HDCP, but the successor to AACS/BD+. If the AACS/BD+ successor is cracked, playback will be possible via HTPC, even if HDCP 2.2 is not cracked. So basically I couldn't care less whether HDCP 2.2 is cracked or not. The much more interesting/important question is whether the AACS/BD+ successor will be cracked or not.

(P.S: If HDCP 2.2 gets cracked, you could grab the HDMI output of a UHD Blu-Ray player with a capture card, but that would be lossless video, so you'd have to encode it to get it to a useful file size. And that would result in quality taking a hit compared to the original UHD encode. So HDCP 2.2 getting cracked is much less "useful" than the successor of AACS/BD+ getting cracked.)

(P.P.S: And just for the benefit of the moderators: Of course the one and only reason why I consider cracking to be "interesting" is that it would allow us to use better HTPC software for playback, and to store UHD movies on a server. I'm not interested in pirating.)

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post #1714 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Your PC was able to play content protected by OLD protections which have been cracked. And the "other 4K content" you played was unprotected.


Because they have been cracked, NEW protections have been designed, and one of them is HDCP 2.2. You are only able to play protected bluray content on your PC because the encryption protections have been cracked, allowing the video content streams to be accessed by the unlicensed players you mention, either directly form the disc or copied to the hard drive. Without tools circumventing these protections, your unlicensed players can't access the protected content.


To recap:


1) the original question never mentioned using a PC
2) you have no idea what the protections will be on UHD Bluray, and how long it will take to crack them, or even if they will be cracked.


Telling someone that they will be fine to play UHD Bluray protected content on an older 1080p non HDCP 2.2 compliant screen is baloney, first because it was never mentioned this would be from a PC, second because you are assuming that these new protections will be cracked. Who cares about what you are able to do today, with old content, on a PC? That's not the point that was discussed.


Remember, this is AV Science. We have to be precise on everything. But all is fine because your mistake is corrected in the end.
Yes, I know how it works. BD+ was cracked so people can access the files on the disc to play them back without licencing. But again, this has nothing to do with HDCP.

And to your point, you also have no idea what protection will be used, but it's fair to say that it will be cracked at some point if it's not BD+. Either way when it does get cracked HDCP will not have any bearing on playback from a PC.

He asked if it would be possible to playback UHD bluray, when it comes out, on legacy devices. I gave him one answer that is true given content protection is BD+ and as there hasn't been any word on a new encryption technique I'm going to assume for now that BD+ will be carried over to UHD bluray. A UHD bd player without a legacy HDCP output will not work as you pointed out, but like I've tried showing a PC will eventually be (if not supported from the get-go) a viable option. You don't need to crack HDCP, just the encryption on the disc to access the files.

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post #1715 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 07:17 AM
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Here are some random shots I searched for on photobucket (I searched for sunset). These have natural gradiants in the pictures.

You don't see banding on any of these shots when displayed on a PC, which only has 8 bits/color, and virtually the same color space and gamma as rec 709. So while it may be true that there are some banding issues with 8 bit video, IMHO it's all avoidable.
The reality is, 8-bit video just isn't enough, it's a compromise and a bad one. There is simply no reason not to use at least 10 bit encoding, 10-bit encoding is actually more efficient than 8-bit, 10-bit encoding will make it easier for UHD BD mastering folks to provide excellent masters. Any time technology can "guarantee" quality, vs having manual effort "ensure" quality, I vote for technology. And of course if you pay attention to the details, they're talking about using a Perceptual Quantizer for 4K an not a standard Gamma curve which will improve things even more:
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-2-handout.pdf
(There's some really good info about the plans/expectations of HDR in there as well, I'll have to look at that in more detail later).

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I virtually never notice banding on Blu-Ray. Apparently this is something I'm not sensitive too - or to which others are exceedingly sensitive (just as I am to hot-spotting and other screen issues). When I hear of people saying one of the main things they want out of a new Blu-Ray standard is to rid the banding issue, all I can think is, boy, I sure hope that's not the main advantage of better specs, because it's not going to make much difference to me AFAICT.
Realize that Ultra HD Blu-ray is really all about getting that last 1%, 5% of quality. Blu-ray already looks fabulous (or at least can look fabulous), every improvement we're getting with UHD BD is going to be small:
Resolution will only matter for people with very close viewing angles, and even then probably not for older content, where there just isn't enough fine detail.
Higher bit depth will only wring out those last few percent of quality in tough scenes.
Wider gamut will only matter for those vibrant colors that rec 709 can't contain.

We're not talking about a change like DVD to Blu-ray where there were many things about DVD that were just bad, Blu-ray is an excellent format, so when we say we're most excited about we're picking the biggest out of a number of small improvements. I don't really think UHD Blu-ray will be a dramatic improvement, but it is a welcome one and I'm excited about it.

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I wasn't aware of a new copy protection protocol was going to be used. Where was it referenced? Could you provide some substance to the conversation to make this less wasteful bandwidth? Do you have a link referencing that a new encryption method is being worked on for UHD Bluray to replace BD+?
I think it's naive to think that they won't try something new. The studios are paranoid and live in a world devoid of logic. Unless they've come to realize that their efforts are futile, I think it's safe to bet on bet on a new/upgraded disc based content protection system, just like they're requiring new "transport" content protection (HDCP 2.2).

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1716 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Realize that Ultra HD Blu-ray is really all about getting that last 1%, 5% of quality. Blu-ray already looks fabulous (or at least can look fabulous), every improvement we're getting with UHD BD is going to be small:
Resolution will only matter for people with very close viewing angles, and even then probably not for older content, where there just isn't enough fine detail.
Higher bit depth will only wring out those last few percent of quality in tough scenes.
Wider gamut will only matter for those vibrant colors that rec 709 can't contain.

We're not talking about a change like DVD to Blu-ray where there were many things about DVD that were just bad, Blu-ray is an excellent format, so when we say we're most excited about we're picking the biggest out of a number of small improvements. I don't really think UHD Blu-ray will be a dramatic improvement, but it is a welcome one and I'm excited about it.

I could not have said it better.
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post #1717 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 08:12 AM
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As long as the owners of the forum think this forum to be profitable to them, now or sometimes in the future, they will continue to make bandwidth available to the posting community. Its a business, nothing more, nothing less. The more hits, the more valuable the forum becomes through the potential for increased advertising income etc. Rather than wasting bandwidth, which BTW there is no shortage of here anyway, posting about anything is to be encourage as long as one stays within the very liberal rules established. These rules appear to be established to maximize hits and access. I REPEAT. The use of bandwidth would appear to be encouraged provided such usage does not act to deter future usage by offending someone or by straying too far and too frequently from the broad and almost limitless boundaries of AV and HT.


However, what this forum causes as a side effect, is the waste of brain power. That is a relatively rarer commodity and one which many posters, unfortunately, suffer from a shortage. Further, the quality of such is not homogeneous and leads to obnoxious gases emanating from the brain.
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post #1718 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 08:29 AM
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I predict that 4k Bluray will not be in the market place by the end of this year. By this, I mean, one won't be able to walk into best buy and buy a 4K Bluray player and content by the end of the year. I by reason of this conclusion state that while there may be prototypes machines working at Cedia, real product will not be shown until CES with delivery of machines and limited content some time thereafter. How confident am I of this prediction? Not very. But I am utilizing bandwidth in a manner likely to generate a number of responses and rather than predicating the final four for college basketball and hockey (content related so appropriate for discussion on the forum just like a poll to predict the Oscar for best picture, instigated by the editor of AV Science Forum apparently in an almost daily effort to generate hits and posts) is directly related to the subject of AV.
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post #1719 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The reality is, 8-bit video just isn't enough, it's a compromise and a bad one. There is simply no reason not to use at least 10 bit encoding, 10-bit encoding is actually more efficient than 8-bit, 10-bit encoding will make it easier for UHD BD mastering folks to provide excellent masters. Any time technology can "guarantee" quality, vs having manual effort "ensure" quality, I vote for technology
...
Couldn't agree more. 10 bit has been used in studio production since the early 90s.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And of course if you pay attention to the details, they're talking about using a Perceptual Quantizer for 4K an not a standard Gamma curve which will improve things even more:
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-2-handout.pdf
(There's some really good info about the plans/expectations of HDR in there as well, I'll have to look at that in more detail later).
...
I looked at that link, and I agree there is a lot of good information there, but they skimmed over the case for needing this. I totally don't understand the viewer preference chart, and there is no explanation of it. I'm not so sure people will be "demanding it".

They define a 12 bit encoding to cover a 10,000,000:1 brightness range. Seems like total overkill to me. I see this version of HDR as a solution looking for a problem. It's fine if you want reality in your living room, but I just want to watch (good) movies. And for that - I don' think it's necessary.

And where is the standard for blood spatter on my walls after the someone in the movie fires gunshots?
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post #1720 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I predict that 4k Bluray will not be in the market place by the end of this year. By this, I mean, one won't be able to walk into best buy and buy a 4K Bluray player and content by the end of the year. I by reason of this conclusion state that while there may be prototypes machines working at Cedia, real product will not be shown until CES with delivery of machines and limited content some time thereafter.
+1.
And worse yet, I expect it's 2017 CES before we have a "good" player - without all of the issues of a 1st gen product. And I expect it's after that before their is much content available at 4k. None the less I still want a 4k projector.
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post #1721 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
+1.
And worse yet, I expect it's 2017 CES before we have a "good" player - without all of the issues of a 1st gen product. And I expect it's after that before their is much content available at 4k. None the less I still want a 4k projector.
Well, since UHD Blu-ray is just an extension of what we already have with regular Blu-ray... probably with the same crappy Java script and forced trailers... then I expect there to be fewer issues with first generation products. The issue will be how much processing power they give these new players, so they're not so damn slow.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1722 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 09:45 AM
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And worse yet, I expect it's 2017 CES before we have a "good" player - without all of the issues of a 1st gen product. And I expect it's after that before their is much content available at 4k. None the less I still want a 4k projector.

It probably won't be that bad. They won't have to re-invent the wheel for the player platform - it's mostly a circuitry upgrade, and they may have to tweak the hardware a bit to make sure classic Blu-Ray is backwards compatible. They can get this done this year, and incorporate it by year's end.


The problem will be content. There are going to be the inevitable sloppy "rebooted" content, with 2K masters, primarily relying on "upconvert" babble, hopes and dreams. We might be well into 2016 before we see more than stuff that has already been "mastered in 4K" (valid) and a lot of 2K retread material (not valid).


Broadcast 4K, we won't see for a long time. The bandwidth net-neutral wars are just beginning.
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post #1723 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:00 AM
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Is it JavaScript or Java.

In any event, are they still doing a lot of interactive features or have they dropped them?

If the latter, they might as well look at dropping Java. Sun is no longer around and do Oracle and MS still care about how HD formats are developed?
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post #1724 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:26 AM
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Realize that Ultra HD Blu-ray is really all about getting that last 1%, 5% of quality. Blu-ray already looks fabulous (or at least can look fabulous), every improvement we're getting with UHD BD is going to be small:
Resolution will only matter for people with very close viewing angles, and even then probably not for older content, where there just isn't enough fine detail.
Higher bit depth will only wring out those last few percent of quality in tough scenes.
Wider gamut will only matter for those vibrant colors that rec 709 can't contain.

I kindly disagree with your subjective comments. While current HD Blu-ray can look great, I wouldn't peg it at fabulous. It's far from perfect 1080p. There are many issues that present themselves as limitations even within the realm of our 1080p system. 1080p can look much better, but not in the current delivery/display infrastructure. Having spent a lot of time looking at HD video in post-production houses verifies this.


UHD, even if considering the increase in resolution alone, will be greater than a 1%-5% increase of quality. Current UHD demos look good, but even in its current delivery off of USB sticks, etc., its detail capability is highly smeared by compression artefacts generated somewhere within the chain of source --> final delivery. Any casual viewer can detect them upon close inspection if they tried. We are watching temporary methods of delivering UHD for consumer displays/sales and these methods aren't even delivering UHD 2160p resolution at its full potential.


UHD delivery today is not UHD delivery of the future. So what we see today cannot be applied to and expected as an interpretation of UHD Blu-ray quality and we need to be careful not to do that. Thus any soft judgment on the benefits of UHD, as stated above, is premature. Unfortunately, this type of talk is being treated as fact in too many places. I suspect many writers on popular websites will retract their negative comments about why they think 4K is "stupid". Judge only when the final system in place. UHD as a whole (from source to delivery), if done well, will be enjoyable by all...and you won't need a big screen or a wide viewing angle to enjoy it.
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post #1725 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:37 AM
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I think it's naive to think that they won't try something new. The studios are paranoid and live in a world devoid of logic. Unless they've come to realize that their efforts are futile, I think it's safe to bet on bet on a new/upgraded disc based content protection system, just like they're requiring new "transport" content protection (HDCP 2.2).
True. They may very well come up with some new type of encryption for the disc, but it would also be naive to think it won't be cracked soon after it's release. We'll just have to wait and see.

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post #1726 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:49 AM
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This might be nitpicking, but JFWIW: HDCP is a protection protocol between two HDMI ports. The video data is encpryted with HDCP by the HDMI output port and decrypted by the HDMI input port, so to say. HDCP doesn't have much to do with which protection the source is using. Of course the source device can require a certain HDCP version to be available and decide not to output anything without it. But Blu-Ray or UHD Blu-Ray itself is not directly protected with HDCP. Practically this means: HDCP does not *have* to be cracked for playback on HTPCs to work. For HTPC playback we either need a licensed player (like "PowerDVD for UHD-BluRay"), or the content protection of the source disc would have to be cracked. Which is not HDCP, but the successor to AACS/BD+. If the AACS/BD+ successor is cracked, playback will be possible via HTPC, even if HDCP 2.2 is not cracked. So basically I couldn't care less whether HDCP 2.2 is cracked or not. The much more interesting/important question is whether the AACS/BD+ successor will be cracked or not.

(P.S: If HDCP 2.2 gets cracked, you could grab the HDMI output of a UHD Blu-Ray player with a capture card, but that would be lossless video, so you'd have to encode it to get it to a useful file size. And that would result in quality taking a hit compared to the original UHD encode. So HDCP 2.2 getting cracked is much less "useful" than the successor of AACS/BD+ getting cracked.)

(P.P.S: And just for the benefit of the moderators: Of course the one and only reason why I consider cracking to be "interesting" is that it would allow us to use better HTPC software for playback, and to store UHD movies on a server. I'm not interested in pirating.)
Thank you Madshi. This is what I was trying to say. Manni is just upset with me because of some pictures I posted on the previous page and wants to make me look like a fool in return. Like noted before, an HTPC will work fine. A licenced player (PowerDVD for example) will work from the get go on the PC and if there is new encryption on UHDBD it will need to be cracked for people to have access to it. Considering BD+ took only a few short months to crack I suspect whatever Hollywood cooks up won't take long to crack either. For the millionth time, like you said, HDCP has no bearing at all.

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post #1727 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:51 AM
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This is the AV Opinion forum. One does not need facts to make or state an opinion. In fact the facts necessary to formulate an opinion that may be evidentially proven true are simply not available. UHD is great now and will be even greater later. Or it kinda sucks now unless you have a geejantek screen but will be a lot better later when people realize they can see a lot more colors than they believe they can see now (most believe TVs produce the full universe of visible colors or very close to it). Now of this stuff means a rat's rectum to the general market unless substantial bucks are spent on NFL ads touting the deficiencies that higher ed sets cure. Even then more colors and more bits and more DR will mean nothing to the mass general market. They see no problems now. The only thing that matters is bigger for cheaper and higher resolution for greater detail and clarity. You can sell size, detail, and sharpness. That's it, nothing else matters except to a geek It doesn't have to be clearer of higher detailed when viewed from normal distances. Just so it does close up.

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post #1728 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:58 AM
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This is the AV Opinion forum. One does not need facts to make or state an opinion. In fact the facts necessary to formulate an opinion that may be evidentially proven true are simply not available. UHD is great now and will be even greater later. Or it kinda sucks now unless you have a geejantek screen but will be a lot better later when people realize they can see a lot more colors than they believe they can see now (most believe TVs produce the full universe of visible colors or very close to it). Now of this stuff means a rat's rectum to the general market unless substantial bucks are spent on NFL ads touting the deficiencies that higher ed sets cure. Even then more colors and more bits and more DR will mean nothing to the mass general market. They see no problems now. The only thing that matters is bigger for cheaper and higher resolution for greater detail and clarity. You can sell size, detail, and sharpness. That's it, nothing else matters except to a geek It doesn't have to be clearer of higher detailed when viewed from normal distances. Just so it does close up.
You're absolutely right, Mark. It's great for us "enthusiasts" but if the mass market doesn't see a difference or doesn't care that there's a difference this might be the last mass market physical media format ever. Which is fine I suppose considering it should be "future proof" for at least the foreseeable future. Future proof is really a dumb phrase to use when talking about technology, but UHD blu-ray has specifications built in that can be used for content we can't even capture yet or have in short supply (REC2020, HDR, 16bit video, ect), so I think this new format will be here for the long haul which is great news to us who care about quality. Hopefully by the time UHDBD has a successor, it's a streaming based format an the US internet infrastructure is better than it is now and can actually support a high quality spec.

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post #1729 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 10:58 AM
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Thank you Madshi. This is what I was trying to say. Manni is just upset with me because of some pictures I posted on the previous page and wants to make me look like a fool in return. Like noted before, an HTPC will work fine. A licenced player (PowerDVD for example) will work from the get go on the PC and if there is new encryption on UHDBD it will need to be cracked for people to have access to it. Considering BD+ took only a few short months to crack I suspect whatever Hollywood cooks up won't take long to crack either. For the millionth time, like you said, HDCP has no bearing at all.

If man created it , man can crack it.
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post #1730 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 11:01 AM
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If man created it , man can crack it.
As a die-hard HTPC enthusiast, I hope so. It's just so convenient to have a kaleidescape-type movie server at your disposal.
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post #1731 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 12:16 PM
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One does not need facts to make or state an opinion. In fact the facts necessary to formulate an opinion that may be evidentially proven true are simply not available. UHD is great now and will be even greater later. Or it kinda sucks now unless you have a geejantek screen.

Then we are seeing eye to eye on this issue. I also agree that marketing will play a role, but what's more likely to happen is that the UHD system will fall into place regardless of this marketing. I think some writers are incorrectly correlating failures of 3D and 4K; they are not the same. Since glasses need to be worn, 3D is a viewing option, not a requirement. That didn't catch on, thus a failure. The 3D feature can be pulled out of the TV and the general public would never know (eg. Vizio).


On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that for a variety of reasons manufacturers will continue making 4K+ screens regardless of available content. If content is stalled, 4K is not a failure. We didn't have HD Blu-ray until 2006, almost 8 years after some form of HDTV screens first started hitting the market. Like HD, UHD content will eventually become available and eventually the general public will be equipped because that's the most available choice. In my opinion, the mad rush for content now is because our instant society demands it - we're all spoiled and waiting is painful. HD gave the general public a door to the outside world. UHD helps to remove the screen door blocking their view.
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post #1732 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 12:43 PM
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Manufacturers have to sell product in order to remain profitable...or in the least, stay in business. They are not going to make the same mistakes they made with 3D, simply because they cannot afford to. Without UHD to push as "the next big thing", they have absolutely nothing. The average consumer has no clue what HDR is...they will see the marketing hype and will assume that more pixels (UHD) means a better picture, whether that turns out to be the case or not. Remember when 720p and 1080i were relegated to the status of just "HD" and 1080p became "Full HD"? For the industry, UHD means being able to sell the same garbage all over again at even higher prices to the same suckers who bought it when DVD came into being and then again when Blu-ray became a reality. That means new TVs, projectors, programming, and media. Yes, even discs, because as humans we equate "owning" with actually being able to touch that which we've taken possession of...and you cannot touch content that is stored in the cloud. Even though the streaming services were first, pay TV providers wasted little time to get into the mix---unlike the way it was when HD first began and everyone sat on their hands trying to figure out a "new business model" for the format. They see a cash cow here, and they're going to milk it for all it's worth.

The UHD Blu-ray players don't have to actually accomplish any radical feats of magic...all they need are outputs that can pass a 2160p signal to the display. The most high-end models will feature bells and whistles that most displays will never be able to take advantage of because most content will be designed to work with the most basic of players. I doubt we will encounter the nightmare scenarios of the early days of Blu-ray when some discs would not work with certain players. The new player's chips will simply ignore any special features on a disc that they cannot use, and play back a basic UHD version of any particular title.

The path to the future has already been defined by Japan: they're currently broadcasting in 4K, and are already putting the infrastructure in place to make 8K their next standard. If they can pull it off, the rest of the world is likely to follow...even if it takes another decade to do so. Some call it "planned obsolescence", others call it "progress".
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post #1733 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 01:09 PM
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Thank you Madshi. This is what I was trying to say. Manni is just upset with me because of some pictures I posted on the previous page and wants to make me look like a fool in return. Like noted before, an HTPC will work fine. A licenced player (PowerDVD for example) will work from the get go on the PC and if there is new encryption on UHDBD it will need to be cracked for people to have access to it. Considering BD+ took only a few short months to crack I suspect whatever Hollywood cooks up won't take long to crack either. For the millionth time, like you said, HDCP has no bearing at all.
Manni has a valid point, too, though: It's probable IMHO that UHD Blu-Ray will get a new (or at least updated) protection system. I would be *very* surprised if they just stick with AACS/BD+. And we don't know if the new/updated system will be cracked again, and if it will be, how long that will take. The whole story with AACS was kind of weird: IIRC there was a full AACS white paper with all the technical details available. So once a key was found, it was easy to "unprotect" Blu-Rays. They might not make this mistake again. Maybe "AACS2" will work totally different and maybe no white paper will be published this time. It's still possible that it might be cracked, but it might take much longer and be much more difficult. We just don't know yet. It's also possible that Cyberlink will not get a license to create a PC based player. Maybe they'll consider PCs to be too dangerous and not allow UHD Blu-Ray to be played by a PC. I've no idea how probable such a scenario is, but I think it could happen (hopefully not), because cracking PowerDVD is probably easier than cracking a hardware UHD Blu-Ray player device.
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post #1734 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 01:32 PM
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Manni has a valid point, too, though: It's probable IMHO that UHD Blu-Ray will get a new (or at least updated) protection system. I would be *very* surprised if they just stick with AACS/BD+. And we don't know if the new/updated system will be cracked again, and if it will be, how long that will take. The whole story with AACS was kind of weird: IIRC there was a full AACS white paper with all the technical details available. So once a key was found, it was easy to "unprotect" Blu-Rays. They might not make this mistake again. Maybe "AACS2" will work totally different and maybe no white paper will be published this time. It's still possible that it might be cracked, but it might take much longer and be much more difficult. We just don't know yet. It's also possible that Cyberlink will not get a license to create a PC based player. Maybe they'll consider PCs to be too dangerous and not allow UHD Blu-Ray to be played by a PC. I've no idea how probable such a scenario is, but I think it could happen (hopefully not), because cracking PowerDVD is probably easier than cracking a hardware UHD Blu-Ray player device.
It could take longer than BD+ that's for sure. More recently (since 2012 at least) hollywood thought Cinavia would be uncrackable too. That was proven to be incorrect as well. Though, Cinavia isn't technically copy protection, but more of a watermark solution to thwart piracy. I can't wait to hear what "uncrackable" solution they have for us next time. There are people out there that thrive on this stuff. They want the glory of cracking it first and having their name out there as the one who did it.
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post #1735 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:09 PM
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I looked at that link, and I agree there is a lot of good information there, but they skimmed over the case for needing this. I totally don't understand the viewer preference chart, and there is no explanation of it. I'm not so sure people will be "demanding it".
Ah, the pitfalls of looking at a powerpoint without the associated discussion....

If I had to guess, I would interpret it as the dotted lines are essentially "approval ratings" for black level (a), white level (b) and highlights (c), vs their respective capabilities. For example it looks like nobody liked a black level of 1cd/m^2 (0.4 ftL), where as 90% of people approved of 0.002 cd/m^2 or so. The black level results aren't very surprising, but I think the preference for "very high" white levels is rather surprising.

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They define a 12 bit encoding to cover a 10,000,000:1 brightness range. Seems like total overkill to me. I see this version of HDR as a solution looking for a problem. It's fine if you want reality in your living room, but I just want to watch (good) movies. And for that - I don' think it's necessary.
It will be interesting to see what they do. I'd like to think that "HDR" and the associated metadata and processing (SMPTE 2086) will solve some of the problems we have today with projectors and how do you set them up given the dramatic differences in contrast/black level.

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Is it JavaScript or Java.
Blu-ray uses a custom Java virtual machine.

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I kindly disagree with your subjective comments. While current HD Blu-ray can look great, I wouldn't peg it at fabulous. It's far from perfect 1080p. There are many issues that present themselves as limitations even within the realm of our 1080p system. 1080p can look much better, but not in the current delivery/display infrastructure. Having spent a lot of time looking at HD video in post-production houses verifies this.


UHD, even if considering the increase in resolution alone, will be greater than a 1%-5% increase of quality. Current UHD demos look good, but even in its current delivery off of USB sticks, etc., its detail capability is highly smeared by compression artefacts generated somewhere within the chain of source --> final delivery. Any casual viewer can detect them upon close inspection if they tried. We are watching temporary methods of delivering UHD for consumer displays/sales and these methods aren't even delivering UHD 2160p resolution at its full potential.


UHD delivery today is not UHD delivery of the future. So what we see today cannot be applied to and expected as an interpretation of UHD Blu-ray quality and we need to be careful not to do that. Thus any soft judgment on the benefits of UHD, as stated above, is premature. Unfortunately, this type of talk is being treated as fact in too many places. I suspect many writers on popular websites will retract their negative comments about why they think 4K is "stupid". Judge only when the final system in place. UHD as a whole (from source to delivery), if done well, will be enjoyable by all...and you won't need a big screen or a wide viewing angle to enjoy it.
I defer to your experience, especially as my point wasn't to try and quantify anything, it was simply to point out that really everything UHD Blu-ray will bring will be refinements, improvements to an already great system. And make no mistake Blu-ray is great, just look at films like Oblivion, I don't know I personally think content like that looks fabulous on Blu-ray.

Of course the other part of my argument is that there's a good deal of content out there that will never be 4K (the Star Wars prequels for example), but I really, really hope they see an "Ultra HD Blu-ray" release because even though they are "only" 2K, as you say, there are a lot of things that can be improved upon.

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True. They may very well come up with some new type of encryption for the disc, but it would also be naive to think it won't be cracked soon after it's release. We'll just have to wait and see.
My only fear regarding that is, will there be enough interest for someone to bother cracking it?

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If man created it , man can crack it.
Every time discussion comes up about disc-based content "protection" I'm reminded of this paper/presentation
http://dashes.com/anil/stuff/doctorow-drm-ms.html
"
In DRM, the attacker is *also the recipient*. It's not Alice and Bob and Carol, it's just Alice and Bob. Alice sells Bob a DVD. She sells Bob a DVD player. The DVD has a movie on it -- say, Pirates of the Caribbean -- and it's enciphered with an algorithm called CSS -- Content Scrambling System. The DVD player has a CSS un-scrambler.


Now, let's take stock of what's a secret here: the cipher is well-known. The ciphertext is most assuredly in enemy hands, arrr. So what? As long as the key is secret from the attacker, we're golden.


But there's the rub. Alice wants Bob to buy Pirates of the Caribbean from her. Bob will only buy Pirates of the Caribbean if he can descramble the CSS-encrypted VOB -- video object -- on his DVD player. Otherwise, the disc is only useful to Bob as a drinks-coaster. So Alice has to provide Bob -- the attacker -- with the key, the cipher and the ciphertext.

Hilarity ensues."

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post #1736 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:34 PM
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Then we are seeing eye to eye on this issue. I also agree that marketing will play a role, but what's more likely to happen is that the UHD system will fall into place regardless of this marketing. I think some writers are incorrectly correlating failures of 3D and 4K; they are not the same. Since glasses need to be worn, 3D is a viewing option, not a requirement. That didn't catch on, thus a failure. The 3D feature can be pulled out of the TV and the general public would never know (eg. Vizio).


On the other hand, I think it's safe to say that for a variety of reasons manufacturers will continue making 4K+ screens regardless of available content. If content is stalled, 4K is not a failure. We didn't have HD Blu-ray until 2006, almost 8 years after some form of HDTV screens first started hitting the market. Like HD, UHD content will eventually become available and eventually the general public will be equipped because that's the most available choice. In my opinion, the mad rush for content now is because our instant society demands it - we're all spoiled and waiting is painful. HD gave the general public a door to the outside world. UHD helps to remove the screen door blocking their view.

I try very hard to never make an opinion based post that anyone can see eye to eye with. Howver, here I have evidently failed miserably.


As to UHD, the screen door is gone with HD for normal viewing distances. That said, given my Sony VPL-vw1100ES and my Stewart Snowmat screen, I have achieved using 720p, 1080i, and 1080p sources upscaled to 3840 x 2160 a clear window on reality. A you are there experience looking thru an open window. The screen just disappears. Now I know my DR is limited and my color space (rec 709) fails to display all real life colors. But it makes no difference to me. Video is an illusion, nothing more. But its good enough to fool me. I don't need any more but I will take P3 and notice a difference over what I am limited to now.

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post #1737 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 02:39 PM
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post #1738 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 05:33 PM
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I predict that 4k Bluray will not be in the market place by the end of this year. By this, I mean, one won't be able to walk into best buy and buy a 4K Bluray player and content by the end of the year. I by reason of this conclusion state that while there may be prototypes machines working at Cedia, real product will not be shown until CES with delivery of machines and limited content some time thereafter. How confident am I of this prediction? Not very. But I am utilizing bandwidth in a manner likely to generate a number of responses and rather than predicating the final four for college basketball and hockey (content related so appropriate for discussion on the forum just like a poll to predict the Oscar for best picture, instigated by the editor of AV Science Forum apparently in an almost daily effort to generate hits and posts) is directly related to the subject of AV.
I think you will be able to have a 4K BD player under the tree.

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post #1739 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 07:55 PM
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Oh Swami. You have lost this one already and you know better. I do not have and have never had a XMAS tree just a Chanuka bush.
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post #1740 of 1982 Old 02-22-2015, 08:12 PM
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Classy Mark, very classy. A real gentleman.
I'm out of here.

I am glad you can recognize true class and are perceptive enough to recognize a gentleman when you see one. Did you fail to recognize the smiley after my statement which was by no means intended as an insult.


You are indeed one of the most perceptive and knowledgeable contributors to this thread and I continue to be amazed at your contributions given the level of intelligence you posses.

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