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post #1891 of 4932 Old 03-06-2015, 06:04 PM
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The more difficult question is how much lower resolution will 4K end up being compared to whatever than 8K will be. Right now it would not be 1/4 of 8K but it would be even smaller because our 4K is UHD resolution wise (3840 x 2160) while 8K at this point would be 8192 x 4320. But I suppose our 8K will be 7680 x 4320.

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post #1892 of 4932 Old 03-07-2015, 07:14 AM
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Something I just thought of...

Over the last decade studios have been digitizing old film masters, usually at at least 4K. But what bit depth? Did they digitize colour as 8-bit, 10-bit, or more?

If all those 4K scanned masters were scanned at 8-bit, then we won't be seeing any colour improvement (unless they rescan them, but that's very expensive).

Mike
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post #1893 of 4932 Old 03-07-2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
Something I just thought of...

Over the last decade studios have been digitizing old film masters, usually at at least 4K. But what bit depth? Did they digitize colour as 8-bit, 10-bit, or more?

If all those 4K scanned masters were scanned at 8-bit, then we won't be seeing any colour improvement (unless they rescan them, but that's very expensive).

Mike
If the scans were archival in nature, I would assume at least 10 bit. They usually downsample/dither to 8 bit for current consumer grade media. Universal, I'm not so sure about. They usually seem to be mostly incompetent/lazy/cheap when it comes to catalog titles.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1894 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 12:48 PM
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UHD Blu-ray Will Make The UHD TVs Sold So Far: Obsolete

All the experts agree that UHD material featuring High Dynamic Range makes a much more noticeable improvement over 1080p, than the increase to UHD resolution does.

So the prospect of UHD Blu-ray bringing us UHD movies that are encoded with HDR, is quite an exciting one.

But, although UHD TVs have been on the market for over 2 years, manufacturers are just now preparing to introduce models that will be capable of exploiting HDR.

And it's not like you can you use a firmware update to add HDR capability to an UHD TV that does not have it. The physical design
of HDR capable vs non-HDR capable TVs, is much different. In Dolby's demos of HDR, for example, that company uses a display that is designed so that the brightness of each individual pixel can be controlled separately. That type of design is much more complex than the mere local dimming zones found on the highest end UHD TVs that have been available.

So basically, all of the folks who have bought UHD TVs up to this point, will see their displays become obsolete as soon as movies
processed for HDR become available.

Apparently, my title is not totally accurate, because UHD Blu-ray won't be the first development that renders non-HDR displays obsolete, but rather, will add to the process of making such displays obsolete. Because I had forgotten that Warner Bros. and Dolby had recently made their joint announcement that the first UHD movies encoded with Dolby Vision will be available in the first half of this year. Dolby Vision, of course, is the proprietary name for the form of HDR that announced titles like Edge of Tomorrow, will have encoded with their data.

It appears then, that the way most people will experience their first viewing of HDR equipped movie transfers will be through streaming or downloads. Ugh, yuck, I hate those formats!! (unfortunately, about 40 to 50 million Americans disagree with me)
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post #1895 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 12:55 PM
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Does content need to be shot with HDR type cameras or is there some sort of mastering or post processing technique that can be done to create HDR content? I guess my real question is; can we turn catalog and more recent films and TV shows into HDR content?
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post #1896 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 01:02 PM
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By your logic and word choice, any panel that can not display 3D is obsolete. Its funny because if you were a business using a non 3D panel IRS would not allow you to accelerate the write off.




Another pregnant thought, I have 4K sources that my 2K sets can't display in 4K. Are these obsolete too?
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post #1897 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
So basically, all of the folks who have bought UHD TVs up to this point, will see their displays become obsolete as soon as movies
processed for HDR become available.

Keep an eye on the dumpsters as on the next day there will be plenty of these obsolete TV for free... Dolby is really trying to become relevant again. If you follow their stock over the past decade, you know what I mean. I admire the enthusiasm though.


The questions that matter to me are: when can we have 4k HDR displays in the 100"+ sizes? When will they break the 8-10k barrier? When will we have critical mass of content (disks, streaming)? When will the studios and networks will update their filming and processing equipment? Will there be enough interest from people to sustain the excitement and fund next steps?


The statement above makes me smile and... yawn.
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post #1898 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
The questions that matter to me are: when can we have 4k HDR displays in the 100"+ sizes? When will they break the 8-10k barrier? When will we have critical mass of content (disks, streaming)? When will the studios and networks will update their filming and processing equipment? Will there be enough interest from people to sustain the excitement and fund next steps
My guess is that a mass produced 100"+ unit will never hit the market until we have flexible panels. Flexible enough where it can be reduced in size enough (or rolled up like screen materials are now) to make it feasible to ship without considerable potential damage occurring. Getting units this size and larger into homes, up and downstairs pose problems that many people just won't want to deal with. What happens if you have a tight turn or corner you can't fit the TV through?
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post #1899 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Does content need to be shot with HDR type cameras or is there some sort of mastering or post processing technique that can be done to create HDR content? I guess my real question is; can we turn catalog and more recent films and TV shows into HDR content?
It is my understanding that recent movies and shows, as well as much catalog material can be processed to have a higher dynamic range that an HDR capable TV could take advantage of. But I wonder if the results would look as natural as movies or shows shot specifically to exploit HDR. Seems reasonable to assume that the improvement possible with HDR would be considerably less with stuff that was not shot with HDR in mind. You can tell, I'm sure no expert on HDR, but mostly going by the extremely positive reactions of people who have seen demos of HDR. I guess it was the CES of Jan. 2014, where many people said that the Vizio series R prototype using Dolby Vision, smoked every other display at CES.
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post #1900 of 4932 Old 03-08-2015, 11:01 PM
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Those Wanting The Ultimate PQ Could See Non-HDR UHD TVs As Obsolete

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
By your logic and word choice, any panel that can not display 3D is obsolete. Its funny because if you were a business using a non 3D panel IRS would not allow you to accelerate the write off.




Another pregnant thought, I have 4K sources that my 2K sets can't display in 4K. Are these obsolete too?
You might agree that one goal of audio/video enthusiasts, is to have movies, as well as other video material, look as good as technology will allow. So it seems fair to say, that to people who want the improved image quality, that UHD HDR encoded material will provide, over non-HDR UHD material, an UHD TV that is not HDR capable, would be obsolete, as far as these people would be concerned.

Your point about 2D TVs being obsolete is a valid one when talking about people who are fans of 3D. But since none of the films I would want with me on that proverbial desert island are in 3D, I'm not bothered by the fact that only 1 of our 4 1080p displays is 3D capable. That display is actually the one we no longer watch movies on, even though it still has the picture quality that caused it to be the #1 choice of all 30 professionals at the Sept 2010 Value Electronics Flat Panel Shoot Out. That Panny is our smallest display, with it's 58" screen, which to us, makes it obsolete for watching movies, because films simply have more impact on the substantially larger screens that we have gotten since the Panasonic.

Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart. So, although technically UHD has made our 1080p TVs obsolete, as a practical matter, it does not seem like it so far. And, since 1998's Saving Private Ryan is actually one of the newest
of my movie favorites, it remains to be seen how many of the films I like will ever see an UHD version, and for the ones that do, how much of an improvement will be seen with UHD Blu-ray versions. (will not waste any time with undependable streams or downloading)
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post #1901 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
It is my understanding that recent movies and shows, as well as much catalog material can be processed to have a higher dynamic range that an HDR capable TV could take advantage of. But I wonder if the results would look as natural as movies or shows shot specifically to exploit HDR. Seems reasonable to assume that the improvement possible with HDR would be considerably less with stuff that was not shot with HDR in mind. You can tell, I'm sure no expert on HDR, but mostly going by the extremely positive reactions of people who have seen demos of HDR. I guess it was the CES of Jan. 2014, where many people said that the Vizio series R prototype using Dolby Vision, smoked every other display at CES.
It's not directly applicable, but I know when I process my digital photos shot in RAW, that I can pull a lot of information out of shadows and highlights. I use a Canon 6D and 7D and both have a dynamic range of around 12 EV/Stops. So there's quite a bit of dynamic range in the source that you could take advantage of for HDR display even without "HDR" capture. I believe the current digital movie cameras (RED, ARRI, Sony) are even better, I want to say they're 14+ stops. As for film, I found a thread on the RED User forum about that, but that sounded complicated and went over my interest level.

FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".
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post #1902 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart.
Here's another similar take on UHD by Geoffrey Morrison.

http://www.cnet.com/news/why-ultra-h...-still-stupid/
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post #1903 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's not directly applicable, but I know when I process my digital photos shot in RAW, that I can pull a lot of information out of shadows and highlights. I use a Canon 6D and 7D and both have a dynamic range of around 12 EV/Stops. So there's quite a bit of dynamic range in the source that you could take advantage of for HDR display even without "HDR" capture. I believe the current digital movie cameras (RED, ARRI, Sony) are even better, I want to say they're 14+ stops. As for film, I found a thread on the RED User forum about that, but that sounded complicated and went over my interest level.

FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".
A fascinating take on the subject.
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post #1904 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
You might agree that one goal of audio/video enthusiasts, is to have movies, as well as other video material, look as good as technology will allow. So it seems fair to say, that to people who want the improved image quality, that UHD HDR encoded material will provide, over non-HDR UHD material, an UHD TV that is not HDR capable, would be obsolete, as far as these people would be concerned.

Your point about 2D TVs being obsolete is a valid one when talking about people who are fans of 3D. But since none of the films I would want with me on that proverbial desert island are in 3D, I'm not bothered by the fact that only 1 of our 4 1080p displays is 3D capable. That display is actually the one we no longer watch movies on, even though it still has the picture quality that caused it to be the #1 choice of all 30 professionals at the Sept 2010 Value Electronics Flat Panel Shoot Out. That Panny is our smallest display, with it's 58" screen, which to us, makes it obsolete for watching movies, because films simply have more impact on the substantially larger screens that we have gotten since the Panasonic.

Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart. So, although technically UHD has made our 1080p TVs obsolete, as a practical matter, it does not seem like it so far. And, since 1998's Saving Private Ryan is actually one of the newest
of my movie favorites, it remains to be seen how many of the films I like will ever see an UHD version, and for the ones that do, how much of an improvement will be seen with UHD Blu-ray versions. (will not waste any time with undependable streams or downloading)

The caption you put over my quote is NOT the caption over your post that I responded to.
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The caption you put over my quote is NOT the caption over your post that I responded to.
Mark, my post was responding to the analogy that you came up with, where you stated that by my reasoning 3D capable displays
make non-3D capable displays obsolete. And if you read all of my post, you saw that I agreed with your point. I responded that for fans of 3D, 2D displays are obsolete. But I also indicated that for folks uninterested in 3D, like yours truly, 3D does not render 2D displays obsolete, and certainly, does not do that to 2D movies, either.
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What have been the reactions to these HDR displays from CES?

What do AVSers who went to CES think, did they see side by side comparisons?
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SMPTE just sent this which may be of interest to many here.

https://www.smpte.org/education/webc...0397-267735705

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post #1908 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 11:26 AM
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Is that her senior portrait?
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As I explained to you earlier already, there's no technical base for claiming that 8K would bring any improvements to color or contrast.
We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
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post #1910 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 01:43 PM
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We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
He's saying, as have I, that the resolution in the ITU spec has literally nothing to do with increases in color and contrast.
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".

You are right and projectors have ways to go to get such high brightness with current sources, including hybrid lasers. Perhaps true laser projector with direct firing RBG lasers would fit the bill one day. Flat displays will get there sooner...
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post #1912 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 04:33 PM
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We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...

I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?
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We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
Quote:
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I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?
Sports are a big obvious for 8k. This is why NHK Japan wants to put the Olympics in 8k. Imagine being in a sports bar, or a home, and there is a floor to ceiling display, between 10 and 20 feet tall, in 8k. It would be like really sitting front row of the event.

There are lots of uses for 8k, even if there would be little benefit to "traditional" films, by which I mean 2.35:1 films and 1:85 films at reasonable viewing distances. For instance, wraparound films, which would be intended to not only fill your comfortable field of focus, but completely fill your vision from side to side, top to bottom. And don't say nobody wants that or no one will ever do that, because you never know. A visionary director with the technology to make it happen could change everything, just like no one thought 3d would go anywhere until James Cameron's Avatar. I could see this especially for something set in space. Where there may not be much happening in the edges, but just having stars or asteroids at the far edges of your vision, while all the action happens in the center, would give a sense of really being in the middle of the space battle, as opposed to just watching a space battle through a window.

I could also see wraparound gaming in 8k. Personally, I don't expect to ever really use VR. But I could see myself, if the price is right, having some sort of half-sphere display, such that if I look left or right, up or down, I can see the full field of battle for 180 degrees without having to turn my avatars head.
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I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?
Mark, that also depends on what people mean by "selling rather well." UHD TVs have been on the U.S. market for 2 years now, and yet I read an article the other day (I think the source was the NPD research group) stating that at the end of 2014 just 1% of Americans owned an UHD TV. That doesn't sound to me like UHD TVs are exactly flying off of the shelves.

I personally know 6 people who have bought TVs in the last year, which were 5 55 inch TVs and 1 60 inch TV. Every one of these folks went with 1080p displays. The guy that bought the 60 inch managed to find one of the last Panasonic plasmas, which he paid $1,600 for. That guy is my brother, who with 21 years in IT at Goldman-Sachs, in New York, could afford to buy anything. Brian has always cared about quality, as indicated by being the owner of 2 $2,000 Nikon cameras, and paying cash for a new Lexus. He has the eye of a professional photographer, and some of his photos have placed high at exhibitions in the NY metropolitan area. Early in 2014, a failing picture goaded Brian into deciding on a replacement for his main TV, which is in the living room. He had previously compared a Panasonic plasma with the Sony XBR-65X900A UHD model and he thought the plasma had a much more natural picture. He also said that the panny reproduced the look of film much more faithfully than the Sony did, which made it an easy decision for him to skip UHD.

Personally, I happen to really like the look of some UHD TV models, such as the Samsung 78" UHD in the HU9000 series. But I do wonder how many people are holding off from going UHD, because like my brother, they think that the UHD TVs they have seen look artificial. I have been on various sites where I've seen a number of people making that exact comment.
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post #1915 of 4932 Old 03-09-2015, 07:06 PM
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But no one is complaining that there are not enough colors, that there is not enough dynamic range, or there is banding. Sooner or later it will all be UHD due to the economies of scale. Too little profit to have 2K and 4K skews.
and from your story, your brother didn't choose between 2K or 4K, he chose because a particular technology looked better. If everything is the same except for the number of pixels, the greater number of pixels will win.
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post #1916 of 4932 Old 03-11-2015, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
He's saying, as have I, that the resolution in the ITU spec has literally nothing to do with increases in color and contrast.
My bad...you are correct. I think back when I attended the ISF presentation, UHD-BD was not yet fully evolved. It was speculated that not until the 8K era (as outlined in the ITU roadmap) would we actually get dramatic increases in color and contrast. I mistakenly took that to mean that there was something inherent in the 8K spec that would facilitate it. Now that it appears UHD-BD will include HDR and possibly P3 (the math on 2020 still being worked out), this opens the door for advances in color and contrast that were previously thought to be further out in time. "Stream and Save" is next on my wish list.
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post #1917 of 4932 Old 03-11-2015, 09:49 AM
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Now that it appears UHD-BD will include HDR and possibly P3 (the math on 2020 still being worked out), this opens the door for advances in color and contrast that were previously thought to be further out in time.
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
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post #1918 of 4932 Old 03-11-2015, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
They're playing on the wants of the uninformed masses: mo' bright = mo' good. That's why many leave their TV's in factory set torch mode.

I'm worried that certain movies that had their contrast blown out on Blu-ray to make them look new will look even worse in HDR. It's like a kid with a new toy. They always break it in their enthusiasm.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1919 of 4932 Old 03-12-2015, 12:50 AM
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Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.

I assume what is consistent with a moniker of UHD will be what the voluntary CEA standard evolves too. At some point, that will change to some wider color gamut perhaps in interim steps. As to improving 9lowering) black levels, this will be technology dependent and itself is not demanded by the consumer masses, they think everything is fine and is as good as needed as long as its HD or for a small but growing percentage UHD and curved. We are the Robert Frost Marching and Chowder Society, choosing the road less traveled by.
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post #1920 of 4932 Old 03-12-2015, 11:37 PM
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Doubtful That HDR or Wider Color Gamut Will Be Part of 1080p Material

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
Seegs108, you make a valid point that HDR and wider color gamut could be incorporated into 1080p material without a resolution boost accompanying those attributes, but such a development is unlikely with the big push toward UHD now taking place. For example, I understand Sony is introducing 4 new lines of UHD TVs for 2015, to only 1 new line of 1080p TVs. I'd bet that in just 2 years, or 3 at the most, top tier companies like Sony will have dropped 1080p TVs altogether. Anyway, with Joe consumer being sold on the notion that he needs UHD or 4k to future proof himself, the idea of incorporating something like HDR in 1080p movies
won't sound like something that is keeping up with the times, as far as good old Joe is concerned.
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