Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 64 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1891 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
The salient differences outlined in the ITU specification for each format revolve around bits per pixel (24 for 4K and 30 for 8K..."true color" vs "deep color") [...]
And the problem starts right there already: Both EBU broadcasting and UHD Blu-Ray are going to support 30bit for 4K. Actually UHD Blu-Ray will not even support 24bit for 4K at all, IIRC, the only supported bitdepth is 30bit. And BT.2020 also requires 30bit, it doesn't even support 24bit, anymore. So it's totally incorrect to think that 30 bits per pixel is tied to 8K resolution in any way. *It is not*. If the ITU really suggests that 4K is limited to 24bit and that 30bit is tied to 8K, then you should consider all of the ITU information to be invalid, incorrect and misinformation, just to be safe.
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post #1892 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And the problem starts right there already: Both EBU broadcasting and UHD Blu-Ray are going to support 30bit for 4K. Actually UHD Blu-Ray will not even support 24bit for 4K at all, IIRC, the only supported bitdepth is 30bit. And BT.2020 also requires 30bit, it doesn't even support 24bit, anymore. So it's totally incorrect to think that 30 bits per pixel is tied to 8K resolution in any way. *It is not*. If the ITU really suggests that 4K is limited to 24bit and that 30bit is tied to 8K, then you should consider all of the ITU information to be invalid, incorrect and misinformation, just to be safe.

I agree as ITU-T in Rec. 2020 only defines 10-bit and 12-bit (30 and 36 bits per pixel).with no discussion of 8-bit.implementations. From what we have heard the Ultra HD Blu-ray will require a minimum of 10-bit encoding for UHD video, with perhaps options for greater bit depths, or at leaset future expensibility options that may be used to support greater bit depths.

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post #1893 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Some' to do with Blu-ray 4K UHD coming?
Absolutely, some'n to do with 4K UHD BDs.

A beer or two in hand goes really well with cooking outside on the grill. But to really get things going, pour yourself a glass of some expensive scotch when you sit down to watch 4K UHD BDs in the future. It'll add a *whole new dimension* to 4k UHD BD viewing. It does wonders for regular BD viewing as well, btw.


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post #1894 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 11:48 AM
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post #1895 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And the problem starts right there already: Both EBU broadcasting and UHD Blu-Ray are going to support 30bit for 4K. Actually UHD Blu-Ray will not even support 24bit for 4K at all, IIRC, the only supported bitdepth is 30bit. And BT.2020 also requires 30bit, it doesn't even support 24bit, anymore. So it's totally incorrect to think that 30 bits per pixel is tied to 8K resolution in any way. *It is not*. If the ITU really suggests that 4K is limited to 24bit and that 30bit is tied to 8K, then you should consider all of the ITU information to be invalid, incorrect and misinformation, just to be safe.
The preliminary specification for UHD Blu-Ray was not released until January of this year. The ITU roadmap was produced nearly two years earlier. But while this estimate by whoever or whatever group developed the chart turned out to be off the mark in this particular detail, it would be presumptuous to condemn the remaining information as suspect.
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post #1896 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
The preliminary specification for UHD Blu-Ray was not released until January of this year. The ITU roadmap was produced nearly two years earlier. But while this estimate by whoever or whatever group developed the chart turned out to be off the mark in this particular detail, it would be presumptuous to condemn the remaining information as suspect.
Even if the ITU chart was released two years earlier, they should have seen the writing on the wall. E.g. BT.2020 was defined 2012 already, and only supports 30bit+, not 24bit. To me that means that whatever they wrote should be taken with a very big pinch of salt. Anyway, we're on AV*Science* here, so we don't really need to rely on ITU, we can do the thinking ourselves. As I explained to you earlier already, there's no technical base for claiming that 8K would bring any improvements to color or contrast. UHD 4K already comes with 30bit+ support, and with a *very* wide gamut (so much for "color") and "contrast" is a function of the display, not of the content. Unless you're talking about something like HDR encoding? But that, too, is already supported by UHD 4K.

Basically every possible feature that 8K could deliver you can also get with 4K (except for the resolution, of course). Which exact feature set any given 4K or 8K delivery system will support is still up in the air. There will be many different delivery systems: Physical media, satellite and cable broadcasts, internet streaming by many different providers etc etc. Most of these delivery systems won't feel bound to follow some 2 year old ITU chart. For now the only thing that we know for sure is that 4K will have a lower resolution than 8K. Everything else only time will tell.
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post #1897 of 1942 Old 03-06-2015, 06:04 PM
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The more difficult question is how much lower resolution will 4K end up being compared to whatever than 8K will be. Right now it would not be 1/4 of 8K but it would be even smaller because our 4K is UHD resolution wise (3840 x 2160) while 8K at this point would be 8192 x 4320. But I suppose our 8K will be 7680 x 4320.

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post #1898 of 1942 Old 03-07-2015, 07:14 AM
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Something I just thought of...

Over the last decade studios have been digitizing old film masters, usually at at least 4K. But what bit depth? Did they digitize colour as 8-bit, 10-bit, or more?

If all those 4K scanned masters were scanned at 8-bit, then we won't be seeing any colour improvement (unless they rescan them, but that's very expensive).

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post #1899 of 1942 Old 03-07-2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
Something I just thought of...

Over the last decade studios have been digitizing old film masters, usually at at least 4K. But what bit depth? Did they digitize colour as 8-bit, 10-bit, or more?

If all those 4K scanned masters were scanned at 8-bit, then we won't be seeing any colour improvement (unless they rescan them, but that's very expensive).

Mike
If the scans were archival in nature, I would assume at least 10 bit. They usually downsample/dither to 8 bit for current consumer grade media. Universal, I'm not so sure about. They usually seem to be mostly incompetent/lazy/cheap when it comes to catalog titles.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1900 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 12:48 PM
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UHD Blu-ray Will Make The UHD TVs Sold So Far: Obsolete

All the experts agree that UHD material featuring High Dynamic Range makes a much more noticeable improvement over 1080p, than the increase to UHD resolution does.

So the prospect of UHD Blu-ray bringing us UHD movies that are encoded with HDR, is quite an exciting one.

But, although UHD TVs have been on the market for over 2 years, manufacturers are just now preparing to introduce models that will be capable of exploiting HDR.

And it's not like you can you use a firmware update to add HDR capability to an UHD TV that does not have it. The physical design
of HDR capable vs non-HDR capable TVs, is much different. In Dolby's demos of HDR, for example, that company uses a display that is designed so that the brightness of each individual pixel can be controlled separately. That type of design is much more complex than the mere local dimming zones found on the highest end UHD TVs that have been available.

So basically, all of the folks who have bought UHD TVs up to this point, will see their displays become obsolete as soon as movies
processed for HDR become available.

Apparently, my title is not totally accurate, because UHD Blu-ray won't be the first development that renders non-HDR displays obsolete, but rather, will add to the process of making such displays obsolete. Because I had forgotten that Warner Bros. and Dolby had recently made their joint announcement that the first UHD movies encoded with Dolby Vision will be available in the first half of this year. Dolby Vision, of course, is the proprietary name for the form of HDR that announced titles like Edge of Tomorrow, will have encoded with their data.

It appears then, that the way most people will experience their first viewing of HDR equipped movie transfers will be through streaming or downloads. Ugh, yuck, I hate those formats!! (unfortunately, about 40 to 50 million Americans disagree with me)
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post #1901 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 12:55 PM
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Does content need to be shot with HDR type cameras or is there some sort of mastering or post processing technique that can be done to create HDR content? I guess my real question is; can we turn catalog and more recent films and TV shows into HDR content?

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post #1902 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 01:02 PM
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By your logic and word choice, any panel that can not display 3D is obsolete. Its funny because if you were a business using a non 3D panel IRS would not allow you to accelerate the write off.




Another pregnant thought, I have 4K sources that my 2K sets can't display in 4K. Are these obsolete too?

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post #1903 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
So basically, all of the folks who have bought UHD TVs up to this point, will see their displays become obsolete as soon as movies
processed for HDR become available.

Keep an eye on the dumpsters as on the next day there will be plenty of these obsolete TV for free... Dolby is really trying to become relevant again. If you follow their stock over the past decade, you know what I mean. I admire the enthusiasm though.


The questions that matter to me are: when can we have 4k HDR displays in the 100"+ sizes? When will they break the 8-10k barrier? When will we have critical mass of content (disks, streaming)? When will the studios and networks will update their filming and processing equipment? Will there be enough interest from people to sustain the excitement and fund next steps?


The statement above makes me smile and... yawn.
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post #1904 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
The questions that matter to me are: when can we have 4k HDR displays in the 100"+ sizes? When will they break the 8-10k barrier? When will we have critical mass of content (disks, streaming)? When will the studios and networks will update their filming and processing equipment? Will there be enough interest from people to sustain the excitement and fund next steps
My guess is that a mass produced 100"+ unit will never hit the market until we have flexible panels. Flexible enough where it can be reduced in size enough (or rolled up like screen materials are now) to make it feasible to ship without considerable potential damage occurring. Getting units this size and larger into homes, up and downstairs pose problems that many people just won't want to deal with. What happens if you have a tight turn or corner you can't fit the TV through?

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Does content need to be shot with HDR type cameras or is there some sort of mastering or post processing technique that can be done to create HDR content? I guess my real question is; can we turn catalog and more recent films and TV shows into HDR content?
It is my understanding that recent movies and shows, as well as much catalog material can be processed to have a higher dynamic range that an HDR capable TV could take advantage of. But I wonder if the results would look as natural as movies or shows shot specifically to exploit HDR. Seems reasonable to assume that the improvement possible with HDR would be considerably less with stuff that was not shot with HDR in mind. You can tell, I'm sure no expert on HDR, but mostly going by the extremely positive reactions of people who have seen demos of HDR. I guess it was the CES of Jan. 2014, where many people said that the Vizio series R prototype using Dolby Vision, smoked every other display at CES.
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post #1906 of 1942 Old 03-08-2015, 11:01 PM
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Those Wanting The Ultimate PQ Could See Non-HDR UHD TVs As Obsolete

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
By your logic and word choice, any panel that can not display 3D is obsolete. Its funny because if you were a business using a non 3D panel IRS would not allow you to accelerate the write off.




Another pregnant thought, I have 4K sources that my 2K sets can't display in 4K. Are these obsolete too?
You might agree that one goal of audio/video enthusiasts, is to have movies, as well as other video material, look as good as technology will allow. So it seems fair to say, that to people who want the improved image quality, that UHD HDR encoded material will provide, over non-HDR UHD material, an UHD TV that is not HDR capable, would be obsolete, as far as these people would be concerned.

Your point about 2D TVs being obsolete is a valid one when talking about people who are fans of 3D. But since none of the films I would want with me on that proverbial desert island are in 3D, I'm not bothered by the fact that only 1 of our 4 1080p displays is 3D capable. That display is actually the one we no longer watch movies on, even though it still has the picture quality that caused it to be the #1 choice of all 30 professionals at the Sept 2010 Value Electronics Flat Panel Shoot Out. That Panny is our smallest display, with it's 58" screen, which to us, makes it obsolete for watching movies, because films simply have more impact on the substantially larger screens that we have gotten since the Panasonic.

Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart. So, although technically UHD has made our 1080p TVs obsolete, as a practical matter, it does not seem like it so far. And, since 1998's Saving Private Ryan is actually one of the newest
of my movie favorites, it remains to be seen how many of the films I like will ever see an UHD version, and for the ones that do, how much of an improvement will be seen with UHD Blu-ray versions. (will not waste any time with undependable streams or downloading)
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post #1907 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
It is my understanding that recent movies and shows, as well as much catalog material can be processed to have a higher dynamic range that an HDR capable TV could take advantage of. But I wonder if the results would look as natural as movies or shows shot specifically to exploit HDR. Seems reasonable to assume that the improvement possible with HDR would be considerably less with stuff that was not shot with HDR in mind. You can tell, I'm sure no expert on HDR, but mostly going by the extremely positive reactions of people who have seen demos of HDR. I guess it was the CES of Jan. 2014, where many people said that the Vizio series R prototype using Dolby Vision, smoked every other display at CES.
It's not directly applicable, but I know when I process my digital photos shot in RAW, that I can pull a lot of information out of shadows and highlights. I use a Canon 6D and 7D and both have a dynamic range of around 12 EV/Stops. So there's quite a bit of dynamic range in the source that you could take advantage of for HDR display even without "HDR" capture. I believe the current digital movie cameras (RED, ARRI, Sony) are even better, I want to say they're 14+ stops. As for film, I found a thread on the RED User forum about that, but that sounded complicated and went over my interest level.

FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".
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See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1908 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart.
Here's another similar take on UHD by Geoffrey Morrison.

http://www.cnet.com/news/why-ultra-h...-still-stupid/
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post #1909 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 07:36 AM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's not directly applicable, but I know when I process my digital photos shot in RAW, that I can pull a lot of information out of shadows and highlights. I use a Canon 6D and 7D and both have a dynamic range of around 12 EV/Stops. So there's quite a bit of dynamic range in the source that you could take advantage of for HDR display even without "HDR" capture. I believe the current digital movie cameras (RED, ARRI, Sony) are even better, I want to say they're 14+ stops. As for film, I found a thread on the RED User forum about that, but that sounded complicated and went over my interest level.

FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".
A fascinating take on the subject.
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post #1910 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
You might agree that one goal of audio/video enthusiasts, is to have movies, as well as other video material, look as good as technology will allow. So it seems fair to say, that to people who want the improved image quality, that UHD HDR encoded material will provide, over non-HDR UHD material, an UHD TV that is not HDR capable, would be obsolete, as far as these people would be concerned.

Your point about 2D TVs being obsolete is a valid one when talking about people who are fans of 3D. But since none of the films I would want with me on that proverbial desert island are in 3D, I'm not bothered by the fact that only 1 of our 4 1080p displays is 3D capable. That display is actually the one we no longer watch movies on, even though it still has the picture quality that caused it to be the #1 choice of all 30 professionals at the Sept 2010 Value Electronics Flat Panel Shoot Out. That Panny is our smallest display, with it's 58" screen, which to us, makes it obsolete for watching movies, because films simply have more impact on the substantially larger screens that we have gotten since the Panasonic.

Of course, since the arrival of UHD, all of our displays, being mere 1080p, could also be classified as obsolete. And the specially shot digital clips (with super high bit rates) used to show off UHD TVs in stores, do look amazing. But a viewing test of UHD NetFlix streaming over in the UK determined that the UHD material was slightly more detailed than the Blu-ray versions of the same scenes, but Blu-ray looked cleaner, having less artifacts. And David Katzmaier conducted a comparison of NetFlix UHD streaming and Blu-ray, and his viewing panel couldn't tell the 2 apart. So, although technically UHD has made our 1080p TVs obsolete, as a practical matter, it does not seem like it so far. And, since 1998's Saving Private Ryan is actually one of the newest
of my movie favorites, it remains to be seen how many of the films I like will ever see an UHD version, and for the ones that do, how much of an improvement will be seen with UHD Blu-ray versions. (will not waste any time with undependable streams or downloading)

The caption you put over my quote is NOT the caption over your post that I responded to.

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The caption you put over my quote is NOT the caption over your post that I responded to.
Mark, my post was responding to the analogy that you came up with, where you stated that by my reasoning 3D capable displays
make non-3D capable displays obsolete. And if you read all of my post, you saw that I agreed with your point. I responded that for fans of 3D, 2D displays are obsolete. But I also indicated that for folks uninterested in 3D, like yours truly, 3D does not render 2D displays obsolete, and certainly, does not do that to 2D movies, either.
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post #1912 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 09:29 AM
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What have been the reactions to these HDR displays from CES?

What do AVSers who went to CES think, did they see side by side comparisons?
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SMPTE just sent this which may be of interest to many here.

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Is that her senior portrait?

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post #1915 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
As I explained to you earlier already, there's no technical base for claiming that 8K would bring any improvements to color or contrast.
We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
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post #1916 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
He's saying, as have I, that the resolution in the ITU spec has literally nothing to do with increases in color and contrast.

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post #1917 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 03:47 PM
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FWIW, I get the feeling/impression that High Dynamic Range for displays (Dolby Vision) and movie processing is not the same thing as typical "High Dynamic Range" photography, it seems (from reading Dolby's papers) that it's really more about mastering for much brighter displays, not for tone-mapping and creating the "HDR Look".

You are right and projectors have ways to go to get such high brightness with current sources, including hybrid lasers. Perhaps true laser projector with direct firing RBG lasers would fit the bill one day. Flat displays will get there sooner...
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post #1918 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...

I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?

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post #1919 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 06:37 PM
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We are in agreement that there would be no reason to bring out 8K if it didn't offer benefits beyond resolution (i.e. more color and contrast). Time will tell...
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?
Sports are a big obvious for 8k. This is why NHK Japan wants to put the Olympics in 8k. Imagine being in a sports bar, or a home, and there is a floor to ceiling display, between 10 and 20 feet tall, in 8k. It would be like really sitting front row of the event.

There are lots of uses for 8k, even if there would be little benefit to "traditional" films, by which I mean 2.35:1 films and 1:85 films at reasonable viewing distances. For instance, wraparound films, which would be intended to not only fill your comfortable field of focus, but completely fill your vision from side to side, top to bottom. And don't say nobody wants that or no one will ever do that, because you never know. A visionary director with the technology to make it happen could change everything, just like no one thought 3d would go anywhere until James Cameron's Avatar. I could see this especially for something set in space. Where there may not be much happening in the edges, but just having stars or asteroids at the far edges of your vision, while all the action happens in the center, would give a sense of really being in the middle of the space battle, as opposed to just watching a space battle through a window.

I could also see wraparound gaming in 8k. Personally, I don't expect to ever really use VR. But I could see myself, if the price is right, having some sort of half-sphere display, such that if I look left or right, up or down, I can see the full field of battle for 180 degrees without having to turn my avatars head.
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post #1920 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I don't understand your line of reasoning. THEY brought out UHD sets and have been selling them rather well with no benefit other than increased resolution. So why is more needed for 8K?
Mark, that also depends on what people mean by "selling rather well." UHD TVs have been on the U.S. market for 2 years now, and yet I read an article the other day (I think the source was the NPD research group) stating that at the end of 2014 just 1% of Americans owned an UHD TV. That doesn't sound to me like UHD TVs are exactly flying off of the shelves.

I personally know 6 people who have bought TVs in the last year, which were 5 55 inch TVs and 1 60 inch TV. Every one of these folks went with 1080p displays. The guy that bought the 60 inch managed to find one of the last Panasonic plasmas, which he paid $1,600 for. That guy is my brother, who with 21 years in IT at Goldman-Sachs, in New York, could afford to buy anything. Brian has always cared about quality, as indicated by being the owner of 2 $2,000 Nikon cameras, and paying cash for a new Lexus. He has the eye of a professional photographer, and some of his photos have placed high at exhibitions in the NY metropolitan area. Early in 2014, a failing picture goaded Brian into deciding on a replacement for his main TV, which is in the living room. He had previously compared a Panasonic plasma with the Sony XBR-65X900A UHD model and he thought the plasma had a much more natural picture. He also said that the panny reproduced the look of film much more faithfully than the Sony did, which made it an easy decision for him to skip UHD.

Personally, I happen to really like the look of some UHD TV models, such as the Samsung 78" UHD in the HU9000 series. But I do wonder how many people are holding off from going UHD, because like my brother, they think that the UHD TVs they have seen look artificial. I have been on various sites where I've seen a number of people making that exact comment.
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