Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 65 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1921 of 1942 Old 03-09-2015, 07:06 PM
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But no one is complaining that there are not enough colors, that there is not enough dynamic range, or there is banding. Sooner or later it will all be UHD due to the economies of scale. Too little profit to have 2K and 4K skews.
and from your story, your brother didn't choose between 2K or 4K, he chose because a particular technology looked better. If everything is the same except for the number of pixels, the greater number of pixels will win.
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post #1922 of 1942 Old 03-11-2015, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
He's saying, as have I, that the resolution in the ITU spec has literally nothing to do with increases in color and contrast.
My bad...you are correct. I think back when I attended the ISF presentation, UHD-BD was not yet fully evolved. It was speculated that not until the 8K era (as outlined in the ITU roadmap) would we actually get dramatic increases in color and contrast. I mistakenly took that to mean that there was something inherent in the 8K spec that would facilitate it. Now that it appears UHD-BD will include HDR and possibly P3 (the math on 2020 still being worked out), this opens the door for advances in color and contrast that were previously thought to be further out in time. "Stream and Save" is next on my wish list.
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post #1923 of 1942 Old 03-11-2015, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Now that it appears UHD-BD will include HDR and possibly P3 (the math on 2020 still being worked out), this opens the door for advances in color and contrast that were previously thought to be further out in time.
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
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post #1924 of 1942 Old 03-11-2015, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
They're playing on the wants of the uninformed masses: mo' bright = mo' good. That's why many leave their TV's in factory set torch mode.

I'm worried that certain movies that had their contrast blown out on Blu-ray to make them look new will look even worse in HDR. It's like a kid with a new toy. They always break it in their enthusiasm.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1925 of 1942 Old 03-12-2015, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.

I assume what is consistent with a moniker of UHD will be what the voluntary CEA standard evolves too. At some point, that will change to some wider color gamut perhaps in interim steps. As to improving 9lowering) black levels, this will be technology dependent and itself is not demanded by the consumer masses, they think everything is fine and is as good as needed as long as its HD or for a small but growing percentage UHD and curved. We are the Robert Frost Marching and Chowder Society, choosing the road less traveled by.

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post #1926 of 1942 Old 03-12-2015, 11:37 PM
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Doubtful That HDR or Wider Color Gamut Will Be Part of 1080p Material

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just to be clear, you realize you can have these things (HDR and P3/REC2020 color gamut) without the need for 4K or 8K resolution content, correct? I think the point we've been trying to make the entire time is that you can have increases in color and and contrast performance without gains in resolution. The resolution of the content has no bearing on these potential performance gains. It's just the timing of UHD-BD that will facilitate these advances in color and contrast performance because certain aspects of the spec added support for such features. And then again, that doesn't mean that every 4K display out there will be P3/REC2020 or HDR compliant. But these new standards will hopefully push manufacturers to create displays capable of reproducing faithfully how the content was encoded and meant to be displayed. The one thing I don't like about HDR is that most of the spec is going to try and push peak white output up dramatically. I find this interesting because we've had a lack of display technologies that can produce great native black levels. I think this is the direction we should be going in for the time being, not peak white.
Seegs108, you make a valid point that HDR and wider color gamut could be incorporated into 1080p material without a resolution boost accompanying those attributes, but such a development is unlikely with the big push toward UHD now taking place. For example, I understand Sony is introducing 4 new lines of UHD TVs for 2015, to only 1 new line of 1080p TVs. I'd bet that in just 2 years, or 3 at the most, top tier companies like Sony will have dropped 1080p TVs altogether. Anyway, with Joe consumer being sold on the notion that he needs UHD or 4k to future proof himself, the idea of incorporating something like HDR in 1080p movies
won't sound like something that is keeping up with the times, as far as good old Joe is concerned.
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post #1927 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM
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I was never implying that 1080p sets would get such technology, rather that these technologies are exclusive from the resolution of the set.
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post #1928 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Seegs108, you make a valid point that HDR and wider color gamut could be incorporated into 1080p material without a resolution boost accompanying those attributes, but such a development is unlikely with the big push toward UHD now taking place.
I'm hoping the studios are "open minded" enough to release 2K movies on UHD BD with their "native" P3 gamut, movies like the Star Wars prequels which were shot @ 2K.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1929 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wigglywaffles View Post
From another thread (I couldn't find it in this thread)

It shows that all of the color, bitrate, etc enhancements will be available at both 1080p and 2160p. Hence why they are using the term UHD Blu-ray, because it is not a give that it will in fact be 4k/2160p.
Unfortunately this means it still doesn't support true 2k (if this is final). So for 2k films we will either get upscales or downscales. So we can still get a lot of "HD" material released with high bitrate (remember superbit dvd's? They actually made a big difference imo) and with P3 colors. Maybe some will even be remastered for hdr, if they think they can sell it. So, 1080p UHD Blurays still have the potential to look much better than regular blurays, especially if you are putting it on a large UHD tv, the upscaling will really benefit from the higher bitrate source.

If the source is 1080p, I really hope they just leave it 1080 instead of upscaling. You can be sure to expect another Star Wars release, and since the prequels (all or just ep I?) were in 1080p, I hope they just leave them that way.
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post #1930 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 06:52 AM
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I don't like that Rec709 is allowed for "SDR". Assuming that slide is still accurate.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #1931 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I was never implying that 1080p sets would get such technology, rather that these technologies are exclusive from the resolution of the set.
I was assuming you meant 1080p material, not 1080p sets, but maybe I confused things by mentioning the increasing emphasis that TV manufacturers like Sony are placing on introducing more models of UHD sets, while making fewer models of 1080p sets. The reason I'd brought that up was to show that UHD is being put uppermost in the minds of consumers, so content providers are less likely to include things like HDR in 1080p material, because people are starting to think that everything has to be UHD in order to keep in pace with the times.
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post #1932 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I don't like that Rec709 is allowed for "SDR". Assuming that slide is still accurate.
And I doubt the studios will be labeling what color space system they used to master a particular title.

Or whether or not it's from a 2k, true 4k, or 2k upconverted DI.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1933 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 09:03 AM
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The market thinks it sees every color in the universe just fine now and will be unresponsive to pitches that it will give you more colors than you have with your sets now. Ad campaigns touting sets that show more colors have been a total flop. Even if those here cared about more colors, they would go to movies at a DCI theaters so they could see those better reds and yellows but they don't. They want a wider color space because wider color spaces are now possible but they really don't need or want it. Its like a little kid seeing a candy bar in the grocery store check out line, there it is, I want it.

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post #1934 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
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Would it be true to say that better native color is on the way with OLED, Quantum Dots, as well as lasers for DCI projectors?
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post #1935 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Would it be true to say that better native color is on the way with OLED, Quantum Dots, as well as lasers for DCI projectors?
No, not necessarily. These quantom dot displays that are being shown are having a hard time reaching P3 (which is a LOT smaller than REC2020). OLED cannot reach REC2020 as the technology currently stands, and I'm not certain about DCI laser machines, but I doubt they'd be created around REC2020 in mind considering the theatrical DCI gamut is P3 and DCI projectors have been able to reach that for a long time now. The current laser/phosphor wheel combo light source (like the one in the LS10000) can do P3 but no where near REC2020.

With innovations with these light sources and display technologies we might be able to do REC2020 by the end of this decade, but there will need to be some serious work to get there with most of them. LEDs are the closest light source (without the need for serious filtering) currently available that can produce a REC2020 gamut, but still fall short of achieving the entire triangle.

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post #1936 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 01:43 PM
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The current laser/phosphor wheel combo light source (like the one in the LS10000) can do P3 but no where near REC2020.


Even then, the insertion of a mild yellow filter in the light path is still required.

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post #1937 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM
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I'm hoping the studios are "open minded" enough to release 2K movies on UHD BD with their "native" P3 gamut, movies like the Star Wars prequels which were shot @ 2K.
Episode I (and maybe Ep II), were only shot on HD-CAM, which is definitely only Rec.709 colour space, not P3. And 3:1:1 sampling to boot! And only 1080 x 1440. AND 8 bit. Thankfully, even "2K" has come a long way since then.
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Episode I (and maybe Ep II), were only shot on HD-CAM, which is definitely only Rec.709 colour space, not P3. And 3:1:1 sampling to boot! And only 1080 x 1440. AND 8 bit. Thankfully, even "2K" has come a long way since then.
Episode I was shot on 35mm analog film.

Episode II and III were shot on digital. I want to say Episode II was the first 1080p digitally shot movie but don't quote me. But the digital camera used for Ep III was a big improvement.

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post #1939 of 1942 Old Yesterday, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'm hoping the studios are "open minded" enough to release 2K movies on UHD BD with their "native" P3 gamut, movies like the Star Wars prequels which were shot @ 2K.
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Episode I was shot on 35mm analog film.

Episode II and III were shot on digital. I want to say Episode II was the first 1080p digitally shot movie but don't quote me. But the digital camera used for Ep III was a big improvement.
Yes, of course you are correct. (Just checked WikiPedia). Ep II was HD-CAM, and only used the middle 800 or so lines of the 1080 due to the 2.35:1 ratio. But as far as I'm aware, only Rec.709.

Cheers.
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post #1940 of 1942 Old Today, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
No, not necessarily. These quantom dot displays that are being shown are having a hard time reaching P3 (which is a LOT smaller than REC2020). OLED cannot reach REC2020 as the technology currently stands, and I'm not certain about DCI laser machines, but I doubt they'd be created around REC2020 in mind considering the theatrical DCI gamut is P3 and DCI projectors have been able to reach that for a long time now. The current laser/phosphor wheel combo light source (like the one in the LS10000) can do P3 but no where near REC2020.

With innovations with these light sources and display technologies we might be able to do REC2020 by the end of this decade, but there will need to be some serious work to get there with most of them. LEDs are the closest light source (without the need for serious filtering) currently available that can produce a REC2020 gamut, but still fall short of achieving the entire triangle.
A chemics student told me that quantom dots can achieve any wavelength you want. However, he had learned that quantum dots would usually be activated by UV light, while current CE devices use a blue LED backlight. Maybe that's one of the reasons why they have problems reaching P3 atm? I don't really know for sure, though. Maybe it's something else, like efficiency going down too much if they go to the extreme of BT.2020. Most content will probably be limited to P3 as a start, anyway, so it would make sense to consider the BT.2020 encoding only to be the transport medium and to target P3 for now for the displays.

Btw, LG is planning to release an HDR capable OLED display later this year, too, they recently said. So it seems there's room for improvement in all the display technologies. It's pretty good to have a spec which is better than what current displays can do for a change. We can already see that CE manufacturers are hurrying now to catch up to the spec!
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post #1941 of 1942 Unread Today, 04:42 PM
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Just curious: When Blu-ray 100GB 4K disc comes, what are they going to replace 3D with?

...And the PS4 with?
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post #1942 of 1942 Unread Today, 05:19 PM
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How many of you would pay $100 for a bottle of wine? How about $400 ? Ridiculous ? And yet, try getting on the Napa cult wine lists like Schrader ( $ 150 / bottle ). You can't - they sell out. So some people are willing to spend money. I was amazed at how hard it is to find, let alone buy, an $ 8000.00 road bicycle too. Sold out, before they are even officially released. So there are plenty of people willing to spend money - if they feel that the value is there.


BTW, I am on Schrader's list. But I usually flip mine for $ 450 / bottle, to finance French champagne purchases. Even at that price, they sell like hotcakes.
Agreed! In this "downturn of global economy", Lamborghini actually went up by 20% in 2014 fiscal year. That's a total of 2,600+ cars per year. There is enough people with money to keep the higher end spectrum of any industry in this world alive.

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