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Old 06-26-2015, 07:08 AM
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So are you saying, its rec 709 or 2020 to be forced out and the projector or a processor box would have to down convert the 2020 to P3 since the blue ray coding will not be P3?


For what its worth going to P3 from rec 709 to me is unimportant. certainly not worth a substantial sum to do it. No way. Sure the yellows will be much better and the reds and oranges but most people except us nerds find rec 709 to be just fine. Our brain accepts the colors and its not going to make a huge difference for most content. Sure, YOU as an expert, and ME can say, wow, P3 is much better. I gotta have it. Why are they giving it to us and marketing to tell us we want it and we need it? Because increased resolution is not enough to motivate the market to buy new sets and a new bluray player.

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Old 06-26-2015, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Sony cannot shaft 1000ES owners. They made a promise to the early adopters they wouldn't be forgotten when new formats and standards were created for 4K. If they don't update the software for the 1100ES to make it communicate properly (because it won't necessitate a hardware update to get it to work) with the new players then I think it will ROYALLY piss off a lot of people. They'd probably never buy a Sony product again.
Agreed, especially with the royally part. Which begs the question of why would Sony provide the option for P3 (with filter) if there was never going to be a way to use it? Given that movies shown in the theater are distributed in P3, it makes sense that the first UHD-BDs will provide P3 initially as a step up from 709 to showcase the new source format. For projectors that currently support P3 to not be able to take advantage of this feature because they "wrapped" it in 2020, which no (or very few?) currently support, is very short sighted or an obvious ploy to force hardware upgrades. Again, I'm not playing that game, but will look for Sony to provide a firmware fix to the 1100. Or like you said, never buy Sony again. EVER.

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Old 06-26-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Agreed, especially with the royally part. Which begs the question of why would Sony provide the option for P3 (with filter) if there was never going to be a way to use it? Given that movies shown in the theater are distributed in P3, it makes sense that the first UHD-BDs will provide P3 initially as a step up from 709 to showcase the new source format. For projectors that currently support P3 to not be able to take advantage of this feature because they "wrapped" it in 2020, which no (or very few?) currently support, is very short sighted or an obvious ploy to force hardware upgrades. Again, I'm not playing that game, but will look for Sony to provide a firmware fix to the 1100. Or like you said, never buy Sony again. EVER.
Not to disagree with how bad it would be if the 1100 doesn't get updated to support 2020 "communication", but a few points:

1) The VW1000 was designed long before Rec2020 was even a thought for a new format, before HDMI 2.0.
2) Sony is but a (small) part of the BDA
3) UHD BD (based on the history if DVD and BD) will be around for well over a decade, it would be "very short sighted" for them to limit the format to P3, it would be as bad, or worse than how BD was limited to 709 and 8bit color.

IMO, UHD BD is being handle very well, at least from a "roadmap" standpoint. It's a good thing they've aimed rather high for the specs, considering it will be around for a decade or two. We'll finally be able to match what we get in the theater at home, and we will continue to be able to match upcoming theater format updates (HDR is coming to theaters, is Wide Color Gamut also?).

I really hope the BDA/hardware manufacturers don't leave existing 4K display owners out in the cold, but I'm very glad they didn't limit UHD BD to the capabilities of displays that were released before the spec was even drafted.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You don't fit in with the norm, especially in the context of 4K front projection owners. Once you get to the screen sizes most of us are using, they type of quality you get with the streaming and cable sources you list can look terrible at times. We need higher quality content for our larger screens. You'd find your opinion isn't shared in this subforum. Most of us who've watched these services on our 4K projectors have been underwhelmed and disappointed. I know it sounds kind of snobby, but it's not meant to come off that way. It's just how it is when you blow up the image in size. You can literally see all the imperfections a LOT more.
Yes, I agree. It is a completely different world than TV. The streaming stuff looks pretty good on a 60" TV, but once you enlarge it up to front projector sizes, it starts to fall apart.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Yes, I agree. It is a completely different world than TV. The streaming stuff looks pretty good on a 60" TV, but once you enlarge it up to front projector sizes, it starts to fall apart.
Six months ago I think I would have agreed with your statement, but I'm not sure I would today. As part of a rate increase last fall where my cable company required renting boxes for all TV's getting their signal, they also said they were increasing the internet speed from 30 M/s to 60 M/s. About a month ago I noticed a significant improvement on the quality of my streaming Netflix. Now, I haven't been playing with 4K like a lot of you, but I would say my 2K Netflix now is about 98% as good as the comparable 2K blu-ray on my 110" x 47" screen. But then I may not be quite is discerning about picture quality as some of you.

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Old 06-26-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DuaneAA View Post

...

About a month ago I noticed a significant improvement on the quality of my streaming Netflix. Now, I haven't been playing with 4K like a lot of you, but I would say my 2K Netflix now is about 98% as good as the comparable 2K blu-ray on my 110" x 47" screen.
...
IMO this is the biggest threat to UHD BD. Netflix could easily increase the bitrate for 4k (and charge a premium) and there would be no advantage to UHD BD. This could be done now with little cost to Netflix (so few have UHD now). With time, high speed internet will become more widespread.

I am at a loss for why someone hasn't already started a streaming service with super high streaming rate for the highest quality.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:31 AM
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:33 PM
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IMO this is the biggest threat to UHD BD. Netflix could easily increase the bitrate for 4k (and charge a premium) and there would be no advantage to UHD BD. This could be done now with little cost to Netflix (so few have UHD now). With time, high speed internet will become more widespread.

I am at a loss for why someone hasn't already started a streaming service with super high streaming rate for the highest quality.
The infrastructure cannot handle this in any stable manner except in the most robust "industrial strength" fiber networks.

That's why discs are necessary for quite some time, whether Hollywood agrees with that or not.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:37 PM
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And Netflix isn't about quality, it's about convenience, which has always trumped quality.

Or else there wouldn't be billions of people listening only to lossy encoded music and audio content.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:36 PM
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The infrastructure cannot handle this in any stable manner except in the most robust "industrial strength" fiber networks.

That's why discs are necessary for quite some time, whether Hollywood agrees with that or not.
I disagree. Most cable companies have 50 Mbps offerings, and with time, this will only get better. Currently there is such a small demand for UHD streaming, it wouldn't make a difference. My local cable company is fiber until the last street and has enormous BW capability.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:45 PM
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And Netflix isn't about quality, it's about convenience, which has always trumped quality.

Or else there wouldn't be billions of people listening only to lossy encoded music and audio content.
Netflix seems to be all about growing - period.

I rent my blu-rays from Netflix. Great quality and convenient. But I'm not expecting Netflix to offer UHD blu-ray.

As to audio - that one is a mystery to me also, my guess is most people don't hear the difference.
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Old 06-26-2015, 01:50 PM
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I disagree. Most cable companies have 50 Mbps offerings, and with time, this will only get better. Currently there is such a small demand for UHD streaming, it wouldn't make a difference. My local cable company is fiber until the last street and has enormous BW capability.
Cable company may sell you 50, but that 50 may drop down to 20 at times.

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Old 06-26-2015, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Netflix seems to be all about growing - period.

I rent my blu-rays from Netflix. Great quality and convenient. But I'm not expecting Netflix to offer UHD blu-ray.

As to audio - that one is a mystery to me also, my guess is most people don't hear the difference.

They may hear a difference but don't care. It's really a question of whether it's "good enough" given the convenience -- loading hundreds of hours of audio content on a tiny device.

I suspect people will go for streaming over having to go out and get physical media or even to have it mailed to you.

A lot of people still go for PPV because it requires the smallest effort, offers the most convenience.
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Old 06-26-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Cable company may sell you 50, but that 50 may drop down to 20 at times.
And what is the average rate needed for UHD blu-ray?

My main point is the internet does not stand still, and it won't be long before the bandwidth needed for UHD will be commonplace. (When I first got cable internet in 2000, I had about 1 Mbps and thought it was infinite bandwidth).

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Old 06-26-2015, 02:12 PM
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Cable company may sell you 50, but that 50 may drop down to 20 at times.
And many times you cannot ever achieve that speed on a single connection because of limitations between you and the server (like Netflix).
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Old 06-26-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Not to disagree with how bad it would be if the 1100 doesn't get updated to support 2020 "communication", but a few points:

1) The VW1000 was designed long before Rec2020 was even a thought for a new format, before HDMI 2.0.
2) Sony is but a (small) part of the BDA
3) UHD BD (based on the history if DVD and BD) will be around for well over a decade, it would be "very short sighted" for them to limit the format to P3, it would be as bad, or worse than how BD was limited to 709 and 8bit color.

IMO, UHD BD is being handle very well, at least from a "roadmap" standpoint. It's a good thing they've aimed rather high for the specs, considering it will be around for a decade or two. We'll finally be able to match what we get in the theater at home, and we will continue to be able to match upcoming theater format updates (HDR is coming to theaters, is Wide Color Gamut also?).

I really hope the BDA/hardware manufacturers don't leave existing 4K display owners out in the cold, but I'm very glad they didn't limit UHD BD to the capabilities of displays that were released before the spec was even drafted.
Agreed and I really like the UHD BD spec.

The studios screwing up the success of UHD BD is by far my biggest concern.


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Old 06-26-2015, 09:50 PM
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I disagree. Most cable companies have 50 Mbps offerings, and with time, this will only get better. Currently there is such a small demand for UHD streaming, it wouldn't make a difference. My local cable company is fiber until the last street and has enormous BW capability.
There's a difference between the marketed speed given by the ISP and the actual speed, throughput, and signal quality necessary for real time streaming of 100 Megabits/sec or more sustained in some instances. The signals are routed all over hell and gone and your top speed at any one moment is dictated by the lowest common denominator "pipe" the signal travels down.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-27-2015, 04:39 AM
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I get it. Its like the 40 yard speeds measured at the NFL combine. In an actual game you never see speeds as fast because of a variety of factors.
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Old 06-27-2015, 04:58 AM
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Although I wonder if a multi-connection stream is feasible (probably)? That usually increases real max speed considerably. This may be more dependent on whether ISP's enforce data caps in the future too. Even a 1 gig cap would go pretty fast streaming high bitrate 4k.
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Although I wonder if a multi-connection stream is feasible (probably)? That usually increases real max speed considerably. This may be more dependent on whether ISP's enforce data caps in the future too. Even a 1 gig cap would go pretty fast streaming high bitrate 4k.

Amazon 4K streaming runs at 15 Mbps thus (15 X 60=) 900 Mbits or 112.5 MBytes per minute so 1 GB of download gets you only 8.88 minutes of 4K/UHD video at this data rate (but still perhaps only 1/5 of a typical Ultra HD Blu-ray data rate). So yes, a 1 gig cap would go very fast when it comes to 4K streaming.

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Old 06-27-2015, 06:33 AM
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Amazon 4K streaming runs at 15 Mbps thus 900 Mbits or 112.5 MBytes per minute so 1 GB of download gets you only 8.88 minutes of video. So yes, a 1 gig cap would go very fast when it comes to 4K streaming.
And yet another reason why cloud based services are still not ready for prime time.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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Old 06-27-2015, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
And what is the average rate needed for UHD blu-ray?
The spec supports up to 100Mbps.

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And many times you cannot ever achieve that speed on a single connection because of limitations between you and the server (like Netflix).
That's why Netflix has the Open Connect Alliance:
https://openconnect.netflix.com/
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Amazon 4K streaming runs at 15 Mbps thus (15 X 60=) 900 Mbits or 112.5 MBytes per minute so 1 GB of download gets you only 8.88 minutes of 4K/UHD video at this data rate (but still perhaps only 1/5 of a typical Ultra HD Blu-ray data rate). So yes, a 1 gig cap would go very fast when it comes to 4K streaming.
Doh! 1 terabyte! That's what I get for posting in the morning. I was thinking of the fact that Cox raised mine to 700 Gig, but rumor is they may actually enforce it at some point now.
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Old 06-28-2015, 12:17 AM
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Wink UHD Blu-ray Discs Aren't Going To Be Cheap

I'm not into 3D, but I've heard people complain about the premium that is usually charged for 1080p Blu-rays that are in 3D.

Well, just wait til people see that 2D UHD 4k Blu-rays will be priced $10 higher than the 1080p 3D discs. I think that UHD Blu-rays, in good old 2D, will be priced at $40 and higher. They will have to be priced high to make up for how tiny the UHD BD customer base is going to be. And the movie studios realize that those who buy UHD Blu-ray players are going to be picture quality perfectionists who will pay a stiff price so that they have material to keep their new players fed with movies that offer the highest quality movie experience available. These perfectionists will pay about any price the studios want to charge, because as far as the picture quality fanatic is concerned, UHD Blu-ray is the only game in town.
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not into 3D, but I've heard people complain about the premium that is usually charged for 1080p Blu-rays that are in 3D.

Well, just wait til people see that 2D UHD 4k Blu-rays will be priced $10 higher than the 1080p 3D discs. I think that UHD Blu-rays, in good old 2D, will be priced at $40 and higher. They will have to be priced high to make up for how tiny the UHD BD customer base is going to be. And the movie studios realize that those who buy UHD Blu-ray players are going to be picture quality perfectionists who will pay a stiff price so that they have material to keep their new players fed with movies that offer the highest quality movie experience available. These perfectionists will pay about any price the studios want to charge, because as far as the picture quality fanatic is concerned, UHD Blu-ray is the only game in town.
I guess they might be as expensive as I was paying for laser discs 30 years ago. Actually, I expect the premium for the Ultra HD Blu-rays to be similar to Blu-ray 3D releases. $30 to $40 for new releases and around $25 for older titles, or newer titles a year to two after their initial release.


The following are Ron Martin's (Panasonic) thoughts on the cost of Ultra HD Blu-ray discs:

"Media will be very price comparable to existing Blu-rays," revealed Martin. "With all new technologies, we have to make them attractive to consumers, but it does cost quite a bit to develop these systems."

"Many studios have fairly mature 4K production as many of these films are produced in 4K. I don't think it wil be a huge burden for studios."

And for the Ultra HD Blu-ray players:

"It will be high to start with, relatively speaking," Martin said. "But it won't be as severe as some launches in the past, we won't be seeing thousand dollar machines. Maybe two to three times the cost of equivalent HD players. But that will drop over time."

Source: http://www.whathifi.com/news/ultra-h...rices-revealed
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:14 AM
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We had a similar premium when 1080p blu-ray first came out and the same complaints were made. Prices will eventually come down.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:44 AM
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A premium is expected and I'm not sure why people would think not. There are substantial playback quality differences in the final product for the consumer plus the changes on the production end. Why this should be priced the same as a Blu-ray disc is beyond me. Who here actually expects UHD-BD players to be priced the same as Blu-ray players? I'm not sure why all the fuss with the introduction of a new format. In fact, we consumers are fairly lucky first generation players aren't $1000+ and movie titles aren't $74.99+ like the laserdiscs we once sought.
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post
A premium is expected and I'm not sure why people would think not. There are substantial playback quality differences in the final product for the consumer plus the changes on the production end. Why this should be priced the same as a Blu-ray disc is beyond me. Who here actually expects UHD-BD players to be priced the same as Blu-ray players? I'm not sure why all the fuss with the introduction of a new format. In fact, we consumers are fairly lucky first generation players aren't $1000+ and movie titles aren't $74.99+ like the laserdiscs we once sought.
I am expecting them to be priced about the same or cheaper. Of course, I am talking about when BD first came out. Wasn't the first BD player around $1,000?

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Old 06-28-2015, 06:58 AM
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I have the Panasonic DMP-BD-10A sitting right beside me, all boxed up ready to sell Ha hah. That was Panasonic's first player I got in 2007. It listed for USD$1299 and CDN$1499. The thing is sloooooow. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it or if anyone will buy it (any takers??) I was considering having a "museum" area hah with the first DVD player (Toshiba) and first Blu-ray player, both of which I have sitting here taking up space (why I kept the DVD player so long is beyond me!)
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:08 AM
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Some of the initial players did not decode 1080p off the disc if I recall; I think it was 1080i and then deinterlaced to 1080p such as the initial Samsung and initial toshiba HD DVD player if memory serves. Not sure about that first Panasonic. I know the PS3 decoded 1080p and its speed was a godsend...it also had the best PQ of the initial units.


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