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post #2521 of 4719 Old 07-01-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I put my HD DVD player and 10 movies on eBay literally the day Warner announced exclusive support for Blu-ray as I knew the format war basically ended then and there.
It is interesting because I though of the same senario with the upcoming HDR war. Warner announcing support for Dolby Vision and Fox going with the UHD Alliance started by Samsung. Guess it depends on how high the Dolby licensing fee is, but eventually I think nearly all releases will contain both.
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post #2522 of 4719 Old 07-01-2015, 08:21 PM
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That is certainly my hope. I don't expect to get a 4k display any time soon, but I would still dive all in on a UHD player and discs if it can send "downconverted" 1080p but coming from a 100mbit/s hevc encoding it should still look noticeably sharper I would think. And then of course I will be all set with content when I finally do get a uhd display.

Makes me wonder if the higher end uhd players might be able to send a anamorphic 1920x1080 downscale of scope films for use with anamorphic projectors. I know that would be a huge selling point for existing projector users. That would really make it worthwhile to buy a 1080p projector right now as prices for uhd projectors will remain out of my reach for several years.
The ~100 to 128 Megabits/sec data rate (depending on 66 or 100 GB discs) is for both audio and video streams together. Expect averages of around 50 or so Megabits/sec for SDR video, a little higher for HDR content... at least that's what's been bandied about. It's unlikely, though it would have been really nice, that we'll see superbit type compression unless a particular studio is really into quality presentations. That's few and far between, of course.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #2523 of 4719 Old 07-01-2015, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
It is interesting because I though of the same senario with the upcoming HDR war. Warner announcing support for Dolby Vision and Fox going with the UHD Alliance started by Samsung. Guess it depends on how high the Dolby licensing fee is, but eventually I think nearly all releases will contain both.
Titles will have one form of HDR or another, but not differing formats on one disc. There isn't enough room. The disc platter sizes agreed upon are already cutting it close.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2524 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 07:04 AM
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Is HDR really going to be of any benefit for videophiles with projectors?

I mean, provided I even had one that did a decent job of supporting HDR, what would it mean? My projector lamp pumps out huge amounts of light, 90% or more of which gets wasted until an HDR scene comes along? I know they waste light now, but this would waste far more, would it not? Doesn't that also mean that I'd be giving up a lot of potential contrast in "normal" scenes? Even provided I went to a laser or led source that only pumped out 10% of it's capable light output until an HDR scene came along, that would mean that the projector would include a laser or led capable of pumping out a ton of light I'd mostly never use, which would increase cost. The same is probably just as true for flat panels. ... probably just laser. I can't see led jumping in brightness enough to become relevant to HDR in a projector, unless they completely give up on contrast.

Also, in the encoding does that mean we'd be back to having 8 luminance encoding for most of the movie with the other 2 bits only kicking in on HDR? Or would that be meta data telling the display device to change range for a bit, so that we'd only lose the fine gradation of luminance if there was something really bright in the scene (where the fine gradation won't matter much anyway)?

Is anyone else as ambivalent about HDR as I am? Right now I have zero 3d movies and my projector is not capable, but I'd MUCH rather spend money enhancing my system to support polarized or filtered 3d (not shutter glasses) than to support HDR.

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post #2525 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sstephen View Post
Is HDR really going to be of any benefit for videophiles with projectors?

I mean, provided I even had one that did a decent job of supporting HDR, what would it mean? My projector lamp pumps out huge amounts of light, 90% or more of which gets wasted until an HDR scene comes along? I know they waste light now, but this would waste far more, would it not? Doesn't that also mean that I'd be giving up a lot of potential contrast in "normal" scenes? Even provided I went to a laser or led source that only pumped out 10% of it's capable light output until an HDR scene came along, that would mean that the projector would include a laser or led capable of pumping out a ton of light I'd mostly never use, which would increase cost. The same is probably just as true for flat panels. ... probably just laser. I can't see led jumping in brightness enough to become relevant to HDR in a projector, unless they completely give up on contrast.

Also, in the encoding does that mean we'd be back to having 8 luminance encoding for most of the movie with the other 2 bits only kicking in on HDR? Or would that be meta data telling the display device to change range for a bit, so that we'd only lose the fine gradation of luminance if there was something really bright in the scene (where the fine gradation won't matter much anyway)?
Is anyone else as ambivalent about HDR as I am? Right now I have zero 3d movies and my projector is not capable, but I'd MUCH rather spend money enhancing my system to support polarized or filtered 3d (not shutter glasses) than to support HDR.
From what I understand, HDR will actually NOT apply to projectors (only to flat panels) since projectors come no where near having the extra brightness that is called for. (Maybe some of the 'pro's' here will correct me.)
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post #2526 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lazarus Dark View Post
That is certainly my hope. I don't expect to get a 4k display any time soon, but I would still dive all in on a UHD player and discs if it can send "downconverted" 1080p but coming from a 100mbit/s hevc encoding it should still look noticeably sharper I would think. And then of course I will be all set with content when I finally do get a uhd display.

Makes me wonder if the higher end uhd players might be able to send a anamorphic 1920x1080 downscale of scope films for use with anamorphic projectors. I know that would be a huge selling point for existing projector users. That would really make it worthwhile to buy a 1080p projector right now as prices for uhd projectors will remain out of my reach for several years.
+2 I guess. This is all I would want out of UHD anytime soon. I don't see a 4k projector in my future for at least a few years. Might end up with a 4k HDTV if my old CRT projection TV dies. It would need to be a big one for it to be worth it though.
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post #2527 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 08:40 AM
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HDR-capable projectors already exist in select commercial cinemas. I believe it's only a matter of time before this trickles down to the consumer level.

Scott posted an article that explains how HDR projection might work. It involves using additional optics to mimic the effect of local dimming. Done properly, this could allow you to get much brighter highlights without sacrificing blacks. However, as with FALD LED/LCD's, the control of the "backlight" is limited in that it doesn't get you down to the individual pixel level. Instead you get a number of "zones".

Yes, there would be more light "wasted" in scenes where small specular highlights appear in a zone which also contains darker content. However, if the majority of the image is dark then there may be less light "wasted" in the other zones where high light output is not needed if the optics do a decent job of focusing the light where it is needed.

While most current projectors don't come anywhere near hitting 800-1000 Nits, some owners may still be able to benefit from the ceiling being raised on light output. Regardless of whether or not your projector can hit the desired light output for highlights, there are still two possible benefits...

1) HDR is supposed to use a minimum bit depth of 10 bits per primary versus the 8 bits per primary used in most SDR content (including Blu-Ray). My understanding is that they have spread those additional 2 bits across the range, improving gradation in the SDR range of light output as well as adding more values to the top end. In fact, I believe the gradations are actually finer at the low end than they are at the high end to better match our visual system's perception of light. The PQ curve is an integral part of this. So long as your projector can accept a native 10-bit signal and the projector/player are able to "speak the same language" then contouring should actually be less of a problem than it is with 8-bit video content.

2) Some projectors may benefit from the wider color gamut used in the grading of the content, even if they can't take advantage of the additional steps in lumenence.
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post #2528 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 08:41 AM
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Our eyes adjust to the ambient light level. I suppose in a bat cave a reasonably bright projector could do HDR just fine. I'm not sure, though, whether it would need a special tone mapping curve. Or maybe we could just "lie" to the 4K Blu-Ray player and tell it our display can do 1000nits, and we'd be fine. I don't know. In a living room arrangement with white walls and ambient light a current technology projector will not be able to HDR, of course.

Those 10bits are spread over the whole luminance range from 0-1000nits, IIRC. However, it's a very different transfer function from simple power gamma. The majority of those 10bits is spent on brightness levels in the SDR range. We should see a healthy improvement in banding, even with 10bit HDR, compared to 8bit Blu-Ray. Of course 12bit would have been even better. <sigh>
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post #2529 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
It is interesting because I though of the same senario with the upcoming HDR war. Warner announcing support for Dolby Vision and Fox going with the UHD Alliance started by Samsung. Guess it depends on how high the Dolby licensing fee is, but eventually I think nearly all releases will contain both.
I'm hoping there won't be a HDR war but if there is it sounds like Disney maybe the tie breaker. I would also hope Dobly Vision and UHD standards would be compatible so as long as you have a 4k TV it will work with either one.
I like streaming for various reasons and saw Vudu has a Dolby Vision website with several advertised films but nothing streaming yet. I also see that Amazon has HDR material to stream now. All we need is a Dolby vision TV or material to see if either TV will play nice with both types of content.
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post #2530 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 09:51 AM
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I was under the impression that they were basically all compatible. That SMPTE 2084 was basically just the standardization of Dolby Vision. Guess I'm not really sure what the difference is between SMPTE 2084, Dolby Vision and whatever other options are out there.
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post #2531 of 4719 Old 07-02-2015, 10:37 AM
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I was under the impression that they were basically all compatible. That SMPTE 2084 was basically just the standardization of Dolby Vision. Guess I'm not really sure what the difference is between SMPTE 2084, Dolby Vision and whatever other options are out there.
The EOTF is the same. Where the different flavors of HDR seem to differ is in the "packaging". Most only use a single 10-bit HDR layer plus metadata. Dolby Vision has the capability to use either one or two layers, which gives it more flexibility. They can use a single 10-bit HDR layer plus metadata. Or, they can use a 10-bit HDR base layer with a second layer that brings the total bit depth up to 12 bits (not sure if this option is available on Ultra HD Blu-Ray). Or, they can use an 8-bit SDR base layer with a second layer that, when combined with the base layer, gives you a 10-bit HDR version. So far, everybody has talked about what the different versions of HDR can do. Unfortunately it is not clear what they actually will do, though.
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post #2532 of 4719 Old 07-05-2015, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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PS4 - Will it become an Ultra HD Blu-ray player???????


A new version of the PS4 has recently been released in Japan and in a published hardware teardown it was noted that among the many other hardware changes, the updated PS4 has a new Blu-ray drive and also a new HDMI transmitter chip (from Panasonic). Could this updated version be positioned to provide the hardware support for Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, and only need a firmware update to enable this new capability? Maybe! If that is the case this new version of the PS4 may be included in Sony roll-out of Ultra HD Blu-ray in 4th quarter 2015.


Link: http://www.ps4news.com/playstation-4...-memory-chips/

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post #2533 of 4719 Old 07-05-2015, 06:27 PM
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I think someone criminal needs to tap into the Sony email machine so we can find out for sure a head of time. Seriously, the requirements for the UHD Bluray drive have been established in the Bluray spec and it would make sense for the new version of the PS4 to be able to play UHD Blurays.
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post #2534 of 4719 Old 07-05-2015, 06:42 PM
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Does the PS4 have the power to decode H.265 in software?
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post #2535 of 4719 Old 07-05-2015, 08:25 PM
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Does the PS4 have the power to decode H.265 in software?
What makes you think it would need to decode it in software? Presumably the new version PS4 will have the necessary hardware to decode HEVC.
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post #2536 of 4719 Old 07-06-2015, 07:11 AM
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Presumably the new version PS4 will have the necessary hardware to decode HEVC.
One would think so, the Sony FMP-X10 has been out about a year and supposedly has a HEVC decoder in it.
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post #2537 of 4719 Old 07-06-2015, 02:44 PM
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Just curious what makes everyone think the ps4 (or xbone) will be firmware upgradable to support UHD BD? Aren't the discs going to be burned and partitioned differently? I imagine a different kind of laser would be required to read them? Or am I wrong?

I just remember when DVD-R and DVD+R first came out they could not be read by a standard DVD-ROM drive at that time (until later upgraded DVD-ROM drives were released).
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post #2538 of 4719 Old 07-06-2015, 03:32 PM
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Just curious what makes everyone think the ps4 (or xbone) will be firmware upgradable to support UHD BD? Aren't the discs going to be burned and partitioned differently? I imagine a different kind of laser would be required to read them? Or am I wrong?

I just remember when DVD-R and DVD+R first came out they could not be read by a standard DVD-ROM drive at that time (until later upgraded DVD-ROM drives were released).
I would expect the new upcoming revision of the PS4 will have the ability to play UHD Blu-ray discs, but not the original release.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2539 of 4719 Old 07-07-2015, 06:18 AM
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Just curious what makes everyone think the ps4 (or xbone) will be firmware upgradable to support UHD BD? Aren't the discs going to be burned and partitioned differently? I imagine a different kind of laser would be required to read them? Or am I wrong?
Actually they are using a normal standardized BD-XL (2-4 layer Blu-ray with up to 33GB per layer) which has been around for a few years now (at least as a standard).
I do have a usb powered BD-burner which supports BD-XL and I recently bought a pack of 100GB discs but didn't try it out yet
-> at €11 (~$12) per disc (cheapest price from a dealer from Japan) I hesitate a little

Cheers,
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post #2540 of 4719 Old 07-07-2015, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I would expect the new upcoming revision of the PS4 will have the ability to play UHD Blu-ray discs, but not the original release.
I agree. The original/current PS4 does not have the necessary hardware to support HDCP 2.2 and probably HDMI 2.0. Also we don't know if the PS4 has enough processing power to decode 4K using HEVC (remember the PS4's CPU/APU is only what would be used in a low to mid-level PC although with a fairly powerful GPU function), and if not possible in implement HEVC decoding in software then hardware HEVC decoding will need to be used. Finally, the current PS4's Blu-ray ROM drive may, or may not, support BDXL for handling the up to 3-layers and 33GB per layer discs being used for Ultra HD Blu-rays.


If an updated PS4 is actually coming that can support Ultra HD Blu-ray playback, then I would think Sony would have some way for consumers to easily identify these new models from the existing models other than just an obscure model number. Perhaps something along the lines of "PS4-UHD".


I expect Sony to have a Ultra HD Blu-ray player(s) at CEDIA Expo in October driving their 4K/UHD projectors and UHD-TV flat panels. Perhaps we will learn if a Ultra HD Blu-ray capable PS4 is also in the works during CEDIA, but the PS4 comes from a different division of Sony and generally they seem to do their own thing when it comes to rolling out a new products or putting out related press announcements.

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post #2541 of 4719 Old 07-10-2015, 10:00 AM
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Just curious what makes everyone think the ps4 (or xbone) will be firmware upgradable to support UHD BD?
They won't.

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post #2542 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 09:52 AM
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post #2543 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 09:53 AM
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SO LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS:

http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/06/u...oon/#continued
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post #2544 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 11:04 AM
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More non news. It'll be up to the manufacturers and studios to let the cat out of the bag as far as product goes. I just hope these first gen players aren't sluggish like the first Blu-ray units 9 years ago. They should be screaming fast.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2545 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 02:27 PM
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So the discs or players can't do HDR and HFR at the same time?

And 3 different HDR formats?
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post #2546 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 03:07 PM
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From what I understand, HDR will actually NOT apply to projectors (only to flat panels) since projectors come no where near having the extra brightness that is called for. (Maybe some of the 'pro's' here will correct me.)
Don't not see how this could be true as every HDR movie to date at the cinema was played on a projector...and movie cinema pjs shoot for 12ftL, my home JVC pushes 20ftL and smokes most cinemas in black levels. HDR doesn't require cornea searing light output if the blacks are, in fact, black. (Most LCD flat panels have comparatively crappy blacks so they have to compensate with huge light output...this is band-aid'ing a poor display technology so it can keep up)
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post #2547 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 06:16 PM
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It would be a rather strange business model to dramatically improve the video capabilities of your game console without trying to use that to market the actual consoles.


Even if it was dependent on future software upgrades, you'd better believe "4K ready" would be plastered all over that box.
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post #2548 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 06:34 PM
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So the discs or players can't do HDR and HFR at the same time?

And 3 different HDR formats?
HDMI may be the bottleneck. However, the BDA is not overly concerned about HFR since so few titles are using it.

There's the baseline SMPTE spec that all discs and players must conform to and then there are the Phillips and Dolby HDR versions. Dolby, at least, has another dual layered approach that may also include increasing the bit depth to 12 using extension metadata.

If a title has HDR, the data has to be SMPTE compliant as do all the UHD TV's with HDR and then the extension files go on top of that data to extend the capabilities if the TV can handle it.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2549 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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So the discs or players can't do HDR and HFR at the same time?

And 3 different HDR formats?

Not correct - they can support both HDR and HFR at the same time in UHD resolution. The actual statement in the engadget story said: "..it does not have a standard for using HFR, HDR, 3D and 4K all at once." Since the Ultra HD Blu-ray standard simply does not support 4K/UHD in 3D (i.e., 3D only available in 1080p) then the statement in the engadget story is correct because they included 3D in the mix.


Perhaps the most important news this week was the BDA will begin patent licensing for Ultra HD Blu-ray later this month. I talked about this in a blog that I posted today at:


http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...dia-expo-2015/

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post #2550 of 4719 Old 08-06-2015, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
More non news. It'll be up to the manufacturers and studios to let the cat out of the bag as far as product goes. I just hope these first gen players aren't sluggish like the first Blu-ray units 9 years ago. They should be screaming fast.
Why should they be fast?

All first gen computer products are slow and expensive, and BD players are basically computers.
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