Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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April 9, 2014 UPDATE : The following information was from Sept. 2013. More recent information suggests that the Blu-ray 4K standard will not be approved before very late 2014 and the first Blu-ray 4K players and movies are not expected to reach consumers until sometime during 2015.
___________________________________________________________________

Several news items in the past week point to a 2014 introduction of Blu-ray 4K discs and players. Here is a quick summary of the bits and pieces of info that when taken together seem to paint a picture for Blu-ray 4K coming to consumers next year:

1. HDMI 2.0 standard now approved, announced last week at IFA in Germany

2. First HDMI 2.0 equipped 4K UHD TVs and projectors to begin shipping within a couple of months from now (Sony and Panasonic, announced at IFA)

3. PS4 will have a HDMI 2.0 port (source - Sony representative at IFA)

4. Manufacturing equipment for 3-layer, 100 GB blu-rays disc announced by Singulus for the purpose of supporting 4K Blu-ray discs, now under development by the BDA (full Sept. 10th CDInfo story is HERE).

In part the story says:
Dr.-Ing. Stefan Rinck, Chief Executive Officer of the SINGULUS TECHNOLOGIES AG, comments: "Just in time for the market introduction of the new ultra-high definition television technology (4K or Ultra-HD), we completed the development of the production technology for the new triple-layer Blu-ray Discs with 100 GB storage capacity"

5. The same CDInfo story as linked in number 4 above also says "This favorable trend is amplified by the market launch of the new ultra-high definition television technology and the upcoming market introduction of the new gaming consoles Playstation PS 4 by Sony and Microsoft?s Xbox One. Both gaming consoles are even expected to be equipped with a Blu-ray drive with 4K support."

6. TechRadar is reporting (full story is HERE):

"The announcement of a next-gen Blu-ray disc is imminent – and there will be no 4k Ultra HD format war, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) told TechRadar in Berlin."...."Marty Gordon, Philips' Vice President for Alliances & Communications and spokesman for the BDA, promised an announcement of an 'enhanced' Blu-ray format 'soon' -- "The BDA's task-force has been working feverishly and we expect an announcement soon – I hope this year," he said. He also confirmed that the announcement would involve a traditional-looking disc."


Putting all of this together it looks like the Blu-ray 4K standard will be completed late in 2013 or very early in 2014, the PS4 should be firmware upgradable to support the new Blu-ray 4K UHD discs, and there will likely be 4K disc production facilities in place sometime during 2014. Perhaps we will see the rollout of this new UHD disc format with both movie discs and players by the 3rd quarter of 2014.


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post #2 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:31 PM
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USB HDMI ? biggrin.gif
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post #3 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:34 PM
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post #4 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:39 PM
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Hopefully all of the new hdmi 2.0 stuff works with the 4k blu rays...
I don't see how it wouldn't, I can't imagine hdmi 2.1 being right around the corner too.
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post #5 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:40 PM
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Lol usb

Haha, I thought the same thing, I am like am I reading this correctly....
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post #6 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 02:46 PM
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I find it hard to believe they are gonna replace bluray with another physical format, but if they do, I predict it wont be very successful at this point. While enthusiasts may embrace it, streaming is allready becoming the mainstream choise. It will become the next LaserDisc, at best.
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post #7 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:00 PM
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Why would you buy a 4K display - especially a projector, and then hobble it with streaming? I don't stream anything - both the video and audio are inferior. So, folks like me will direct our $ to a 4K disk since we want the best picture and audio quality. Then again, I am an enthusiast............ smile.gif

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post #8 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

I find it hard to believe they are gonna replace bluray with another physical format, but if they do, I predict it wont be very successful at this point. While enthusiasts may embrace it, streaming is allready becoming the mainstream choise. It will become the next LaserDisc, at best.

I think you have your facts mixed up. Physical discs are still selling like hotcakes. For UHD to be streamed people need a fast internet connection. The vast majority of people do not have a fast enough connecting to get quality UHD material to their homes. This is why physical discs are still the wisest option.
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post #9 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:06 PM
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But not if download to a server instead of streaming. The Red Redray can serve up a very high quality 4K signal. Of course no major studio content. the Sony server will be a source of major studio content but potentially Bluray 4K could be better. Rereading the announcement, there really is not a lot of new info. Just that hopefully there will be a standard fairly soon.

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post #10 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:09 PM
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Physical discs are still selling like hotcakes.

I bought six new Blu rays this week alone. smile.gif

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post #11 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Why would you buy a 4K display - especially a projector, and then hobble it with streaming? I don't stream anything - both the video and audio are inferior. So, folks like me will direct our $ to a 4K disk since we want the best picture and audio quality. Then again, I am an enthusiast............ smile.gif

Craig as sales professional how much do you think 4K players would cost?
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post #12 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:13 PM
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Would you also in your answer predict the Derby winner for next year?

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post #13 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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USB HDMI ? biggrin.gif
brain fart - corrected

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post #14 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:23 PM
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Would you also in your answer predict the Derby winner for next year?



Revolutionary smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif.
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post #15 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

I find it hard to believe they are gonna replace bluray with another physical format, but if they do, I predict it wont be very successful at this point. While enthusiasts may embrace it, streaming is allready becoming the mainstream choise. It will become the next LaserDisc, at best.

The physical format is probably the same as already defined for BD-XL, which has been in place for a couple of years now for data discs. Most of the modern BD burners and BD Rom drives for PCs, including those from LG, already can support the BD-XL structure with 33 GB per layer and up to 4 layers.

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post #16 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

I find it hard to believe they are gonna replace bluray with another physical format, but if they do, I predict it wont be very successful at this point. While enthusiasts may embrace it, streaming is allready becoming the mainstream choise. It will become the next LaserDisc, at best.

They will not be "replacing blu-ray". They will be augmenting it by adding 4K. Just like 3D was added to the format.

And like with 3D, old players won't play it. If you want it you'll need to buy a new player. And eventually it will be just another feature on all players.

If you're not interested, it wouldn't effect you.

Sounds good to me.
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post #17 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you also in your answer predict the Derby winner for next year?

The Derby winner will be the person that bets on the fastest horse, over 1 1/4 miles, to win. However, if you are watching in 4K UHD streaming video over a low speed internet connection then "The Most Exciting Two Minutes In Sports" may take 60 minutes (with many pauses) giving your bookie time to skip town and then your bookie becomes the winner, unless the law catches up before he can get away. Too complicated to even think about. Just drink a mint julep on Derby day and relax.


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post #18 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:35 PM
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I'd bet some premium over Blu Ray initially, eventually lowing to current Blu Ray prices ( and Blu Ray falling into where DVD's are now - one foot in the grave ).

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post #19 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd bet some premium over Blu Ray initially, eventually lowing to current Blu Ray prices ( and Blu Ray falling into where DVD's are now - one foot in the grave ).

My guess is the BD 4K movies will be sold like BD 3D's are today. An extra few dollars ($5 to $10) premium for a package that includes both a standard BD plus the BD-4K discs (and maybe also a DVD copy, etc.).

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post #20 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:45 PM
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The players will cost more initially I'll bet. I was there for the Great HD DVD / Blu Ray Format War - thank goodness we seem to be avoiding that fiasco again !!

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post #21 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

I find it hard to believe they are gonna replace bluray with another physical format, but if they do, I predict it wont be very successful at this point. While enthusiasts may embrace it, streaming is allready becoming the mainstream choise. It will become the next LaserDisc, at best.

Debbie Downer. And I think and so bleeping hope you are dead wrong. We need highest quality physical media. Even if just for the HT degenerates and niche markets. It would be backward compatible of course so no "replacing" the format. Progressive DVD players added to the quality we got from the first interlaced players, etc.
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post #22 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:51 PM
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The players will cost more initially I'll bet. I was there for the Great HD DVD / Blu Ray Format War - thank goodness we seem to be avoiding that fiasco again !!

This time it's a streaming versus disc battle. The choice is easy if you ask me, but I think convenience will win over quality ultimately frown.gif
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post #23 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The players will cost more initially I'll bet. I was there for the Great HD DVD / Blu Ray Format War - thank goodness we seem to be avoiding that fiasco again !!

Perhaps 4K support will be offered in new top-of-the-line models next year from the likes of Sony and Panasonic, but probably will still sell for under $500 (maybe well under street price).

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post #24 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:04 PM
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I am in the market for Oppo 103 so if we going to see 4K players next it would be advisable to wait and upgrade next year for future proofing.
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post #25 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:07 PM
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thankfully this is happening, now 4K finally has a chance of surviving, imo it was going to be DOA if they relied on downloads/streaming. too many compromises would have to be made to compensate for the wide variances in ISP's.

people still want to buy a movie and put it on their shelf.

didn't Mark say hell no, there will never be a 4K BD??
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post #26 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:11 PM
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people still want to buy a movie and put it on their shelf.

That would be me. smile.gif

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post #27 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:23 PM
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I think you have your facts mixed up. Physical discs are still selling like hotcakes. For UHD to be streamed people need a fast internet connection. The vast majority of people do not have a fast enough connecting to get quality UHD material to their homes. This is why physical discs are still the wisest option.

In 1999, CDs were selling like hotcakes. Quality was pretty good. But Sony and Philips wanted more. After all, people did have crazy stereos, even back then. Why not let those shine? So they created the SACD. Now it was off to a slow start, and to make matters worse, two years later came iTunes, and 128 kbps audiofiles was all the rage.

Fast forward to present day. We have bluray players that cater to 99% of the population (screens under 80") with more than sufficient quality. We dont have to wait two years for streaming or digital downloads, it is allready here. Now why would we bother getting a new bluray player, and buying the same movies again?

I dont see that happening.
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post #28 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

In 1999, CDs were selling like hotcakes. Quality was pretty good. But Sony and Philips wanted more. After all, people did have crazy stereos, even back then. Why not let those shine? So they created the SACD. Now it was off to a slow start, and to make matters worse, two years later came iTunes, and 128 kbps audiofiles was all the rage.

Fast forward to present day. We have bluray players that cater to 99% of the population (screens under 80") with more than sufficient quality. We dont have to wait two years for streaming or digital downloads, it is allready here. Now why would we bother getting a new bluray player, and buying the same movies again?

I dont see that happening.

You still need a device to stream the content on. Whether it be a special TV or set top box of some type it's basically the same thing as buying a disc player. So your options are to buy a streaming box/new TV with the decoding software built in or buy a UHD Blu-ray player. Also, streaming will not meet or come close to the quality the disc will bring. Why take a step back? Yes, people love Netflix streaming and the like, but their internet speed IS NOT FAST ENOUGH for streaming UHD content. Most likely UHD streaming files will be 15GB+. Most 20mbps or slower internet connection (which is a lot faster than most people have) is not fast enough to stream a movie within that that time given it's a 2 hour movie. it would take closer to 3 hours to download/stream a file at that size and that's with an internet connection 75% of Americans don't have. If you think they're going to pull off even decent quality UHD content at less than 15GB per movie with a surround sound track, you're insane. As Mark has pointed out, it will most likely be a download service because of this. Until we switch our infrastructure over to fiber people aren't going to have a fast enough internet connection for what you want. If it's a download service and people have to wait 4-5hours for it to download, why not drive to your local drug store and rent the UHD Blu-ray from RedBox for a couple bucks and watch it. You could go rent it, bring it back and watch it in the time it would take you to just download it.
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post #29 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 04:54 PM
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make. When SACD came along, people chose convenience over quality and later made iTunes the worlds biggest record store.

With Bluray being as good as it is, 4K will only be benefitial to those with very large screens. Granted, I have that myself, and I gather most of you guys do to, hanging out on this forum. But most people dont, and wont benefit much or at all from 4K. So why would they bother with another physical format, when they can remain perfectly happy with 1080p or even 720p directly into their SmartTV NetFlix app?

Even if they need another device, download is still more convenient. Where I live (Oslo, Norway), Videostores are so rare, obtaining physical discs is getting increasingly difficult. I find it hard to believe people will go out of their way to obtain the 4K version of any movie when they can just turn on their 99$ Apple TV and stream it in 1080p instead. Unless they are one of the few with a 100" screen.

Introducing a new physical format at this point is something I think will be very difficult. Sonys "download to a box" sollution could have been a great alternative had it not been limited to use with their TVs.
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post #30 of 1062 Old 09-11-2013, 05:10 PM
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I that case, Blu Ray and 1080p displays will chug along, and 4K disks / displays and 3D will remain the red headed stepchildren - only time will tell.
Quote:
Videostores are so rare, obtaining physical discs is getting increasingly difficult

Who goes to a video store? I order on Amazon, and even re-sell some disks there. Heck, I order Blu Rays not available in the US from Amazon UK, CA and FR.

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