Real-world difference between a bigger screen vs sitting closer? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 70 Old 09-16-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

anyway, here is the article I mentioned about human vision (in comparison to a camera)... fun read: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm

that's a good article. When we have 14 stops of dynamic range on the cameras AND the displays, Sony will have to relinquish their term 'Reality Creation' unless that is, they are the one's that find the magic tech to re-created the dynamic ability of our sight.

HDR + OLED should get pretty close, much better than what we have now with front projectors.
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post #62 of 70 Old 09-16-2013, 04:58 PM
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i'm pretty convinced that my Samsung f8500 can already produce more ansi contrast than my eyes can perceive. when I crank up the brightness and watch a scene with large bright areas and some dark shadowy details I lose the details in the shadows. that is, until I block the bright areas of the screen with my hand, and give my eyes a couple seconds to adjust, then I can see the details in the shadows again.


but, to go back to the discussion of size vs viewing distance. I think i'll sum up my opinion this way:
moving a small screen closer to you does not give the impression of a larger screen, but moving a large screen farther away from you does give the impression of a smaller screen.

when I had my 120" screen set up about 14" from my viewing distance and got used to that 'size', I felt the cheaper theatres in the area had 'smaller' screens by comparison. they were obviously much larger, but I was way too far away. yet on the flip side, comparing to a high end theatre, sitting equitable distances from each, the theatre always felt larger than sitting at home.

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post #63 of 70 Old 09-16-2013, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

The centre of the screen now is just above eye level when I sit down. It looks a little silly mounted on the wall that low, but I'd much rather not have to look up at the screen while I watch it.

Ding ding! We have a winner. Sadly, too many people factor "the recommended rule" into their equation. Nope.

Screen size is as personal as jacket, eyeware, even your pants and/or underwear.

Before I built my theater, we projected the picture (from a stepladder) onto the blank wall, experimenting with different sizes and placements. After a few weeks, we measured, and realized we **LIKED** 132" back from a 133" screen (18" off the ground).

Check my signature for photos. "Rules of thumb" are too narrow, and suck; everybody should choose their own desire.

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post #64 of 70 Old 09-17-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Graham View Post

Check my signature for photos. "Rules of thumb" are too narrow, and suck; everybody should choose their own desire.

People who argue this (and some people who use rules of thumb) don't take them for what they are, guidelines, starting points, sanity checks. As such they are useful.

If someone comes in here and says "I want to set up a home theater to watch movies, my room is x by y by z and I'll sit L away, help." Telling them "Do whatever you want" helps no one. Rules of thumb are good places to start.

Say that same person said they were going to sit 15' from the front wall and was planning on getting a 32" TV because it's way bigger than the 19" CRT they had before. Well we all know that's crazy, that's way too small, but how do we know that, how do we guide a new person to a realistic solution? Well we compare it to some rules of thumb or industry guidelines.

Common guidance is seating for a theater should be between 2 and 4 picture heights and with a brightness around 16ftL, a 32" TV at that distance is more like 12 picture heights. A more realistic size is between 3.5 and 7', (42 to 84" high). From that we can derive that 84 is probably pushing it size wise (potentially hard to fit in a room and expensive to light) so the user might want to consider moving their seating closer (if they like a big picture). Or maybe they'll need to look into "big iron" projectors or high gain screens to light it all.

But now we have a good starting point. It's helped avoid someone going off into never never land with a system that can't possibly work optimally, like a tiny screen they'll regret later or getting way too big of a screen for the projector they choose to light it with, and being unhappy with the dim picture.

From which (I absolutely agree) the user/OP/new person can draw their own final conclusions about exactly how close they want to sit and how large and how bright they want their solution to be.

In the end it's all about the user being happy with what they have, regardless of if that solution falls within norms or guidelines, but that doesn't mean norms/guidelines/standards are worthless.


-edit

I want to address this:
Quote:
Before I built my theater, we projected the picture (from a stepladder) onto the blank wall, experimenting with different sizes and placements. After a few weeks, we measured, and realized we **LIKED** 132" back from a 133" screen (18" off the ground).

This is a great idea, but it requires that you have some idea of how big and how bright you want to be. How would you have felt if you'd bought a little 200 lumen LED Pico projector, because they're cheap, and LED, and everybody raves about them, only to find out you'd only have about 3ftL of brightness with that setup?

Now obviously that didn't happen, you had a frame of reference to know that a relatively bright HT projector could light that. But if you don't have that frame of reference, that's where rules of thumb come in handy to have a sanity check before hand to avoid planning something that's so far outside of the norm that it's unlikely to work.
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See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #65 of 70 Old 09-17-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

People who argue this (and some people who use rules of thumb) don't take them for what they are, guidelines, starting points, sanity checks. As such they are useful.

If someone comes in here and says "I want to set up a home theater to watch movies, my room is x by y by z and I'll sit L away, help." Telling them "Do whatever you want" helps no one. Rules of thumb are good places to start.

This is very true and one of my main points (issue?) - few people phrase it as a "starting point". It may be the $3k+ forum has more experienced, but generalizing (other forums, etc), I see too often these stated as "golden rules". A few may speak that they're guidelines, but often they are outnumbered by "rules" (which are often posted by the newbies who bought their screen a week ago and now want to sound like experts, perpetuating the issue).

Then, the newbie runs off and buys the screen, and never realizes that they did not experiment. At first, it is going to be impressive. It took at least a couple weeks for my wife and I to determine the size & height off floor. The final size was bigger and lower than we started, and I'm glad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Say that same person said they were going to sit 15' from the front wall and was planning on getting a 32" TV because it's way bigger than the 19" CRT they had before. Well we all know that's crazy, that's way too small, but how do we know that, how do we guide a new person to a realistic solution?

Yup, a former coworker converted his garage to a lounge/sitting room. He put a 32" LCD 5 feet off the ground (that's how the Best Buy droid told him, and all the TV he could get on his budget at the time, 5 years ago), about 15' away, put a couple Bose cubes next to it, and activated "widescreen" (stretch-o-vision), and proclaimed that he also had a cool home theater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

From which (I absolutely agree) the user/OP/new person can draw their own final conclusions about exactly how close they want to sit and how large and how bright they want their solution to be.

In the end it's all about the user being happy with what they have, regardless of if that solution falls within norms or guidelines, but that doesn't mean norms/guidelines/standards are worthless.

This is where the human factor enters, loyalty. Just like cars ("I'd rather push a Ford, than drive a Chevy", etc), people tend to believe what they have is best, and defend their choice with inexplicable ferver - especially new (inexperienced) owners.

Experienced and/or seasoned fans tend not to use personal judgement skew recommendations. Calling AVS will give a user a chance to explain their environment, needs, budget, etc - and be guided by a professional to what should work best for the user. Unfortunately, posting on many forums (not singling out this one, others I feel are much worse) gets lots of noise and the true experienced recommendations are drowned out... or those people don't bother trying to be heard.

Even most FAQ's fail to adequately stress that a rule of thumb is a starting place and people owe it to themselves to experiment and dial in their preferences.

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post #66 of 70 Old 09-18-2013, 07:52 AM
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Another thought about center channel height placement, taken that in general the actors / people in the image have their head / mouth in the top half ( tier ? ) of the image, what if suspending the center channel above and in front of the screen (in front of the black drop eventually) and angled down to the spectators ?

Would that not be a better compromise than near the floor where the sound gets muffled also by the carpeting ( well in my case it does) and that also would allow to lower the screen even more ?

I now have my center above the TV and never had the sensation that the dialogues were not direct from the actors, of course with a screen it would be placed higher which when watching TV could be a problem. I once tried to put the center on the carpeted floor and did not like it at all.

If I have to choose one I'd also favor non AT IQ Vs AT sound positioning plus the fact that AT sound has other speaker's placement constraints too ( distance behind the screen fabric is one ) .
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post #67 of 70 Old 09-18-2013, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen Graham

Check my signature for photos. "Rules of thumb" are too narrow, and suck; everybody should choose their own desire.

That may be true, but if you desire a screen as big as the one below with your JVC RS46, I have bad news for you - it's going to be very dim.



Looking at this picture, if that screen is 20' wide, I'll bet that room is close to 1500 square feet alone. I think I know why I don't have a screen that size now ( besides the cost of a projector that could light it up properly ). eek.gif

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post #68 of 70 Old 09-18-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Another thought about center channel height placement, taken that in general the actors / people in the image have their head / mouth in the top half ( tier ? ) of the image, what if suspending the center channel above and in front of the screen (in front of the black drop eventually) and angled down to the spectators ?

My center channel is above an in front of the screen, and angled down. It works better than it would below the screen in my theater anyway.

Da-Lite HCCV 16:9 screen in front, Stewart ST 130 G3 2.35:1 screen in back.

It's getting harder to see as I paint more walls black, so I used an earlier photo when the walls were gray..............

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post #69 of 70 Old 09-18-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I am considering putting my center channel above the screen in the new room as well. I remember reading that supposedly it seems to be coming from the actors more than a speaker below the screen does, although personally I've never really had an issue with below the screen either.
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post #70 of 70 Old 09-18-2013, 11:46 AM
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this issue is whether you have rows of seats on risers and whether the front seats will block the center channel sound. If you fly the center channel, aim it between the the rows and try to keep the acoustical centers of the LRs within two feet of the acoustical center of the center channel This is need so that you percdeive no height chsnge in the sound for an acoustical pan or traverse across the screen.

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