JVC RANGE 2014 2015 : Native 4K with E-SHIFT and simulated 8K - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:22 PM
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Many are reporting no urge because they simply can't afford it. The source resolution has almost nothing to do with how a 4K projector with a good upscaler will look on a normal size screen viewed from normal viewing distances. And don't show me a close up of some ladies eyebrows viewed from 6 inches away. I sincerely doubt that doubt that good quality 4K material will look materially better on screens less than 10ft wide from normal viewing distances than upscaled 2K material. That said, a 4K display, all else being equal will just look damn better than a 2K display. Just ask anyone here who have owned both. Most 1000ES owners here would rank their purchase of a 1000ES as the best decision re HT they ever made.

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post #92 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:28 PM
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We will all need 8k or probably more, when the electronic wallpaper finally makes an appearance (which should be about two weeks before true flying cars arrive!)

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post #93 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Many are reporting no urge because they simply can't afford it. The source resolution has almost nothing to do with how a 4K projector with a good upscaler will look on a normal size screen viewed from normal viewing distances.

Because us GEN-Xr's are still young (relatively speaking) and you Baby Boomers are using up all our SS and we don't even get pensions. Those with young kids need to pay a 1/2+ million per kid by the time they get to college, social security age might be 85+, and the Nasdaq will still be under 4k :P

Our tech jobs force us to move every 2-4 years, so even our "home" investment becomes a liability to the realtor commission and falling house prices which we overpaid for 3-4 years ago. Then the fat cat Wall Street guys in the RIT's that muddled with those bad mortgages are coming back into the markets after foreclosure to buy our houses for 40 cents on the dollar, only to rent them back to us smile.gif

Then there are the people in this thread that made money the old fashioned way (they inherited it - only kidding).
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post #94 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:48 PM
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Generation Y here. I have a pension and no kids! Yay for me biggrin.gif
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post #95 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I only charge $1K for a Carnac approved projector reading, no refunds.

File source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carnac.jpg

Ha ha smile.gif I guess I better buy a new JVC this year and wait a couple of years to get a 4k projector. Those prediction fees are steep. wink.gif

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post #96 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Many are reporting no urge because they simply can't afford it. The source resolution has almost nothing to do with how a 4K projector with a good upscaler will look on a normal size screen viewed from normal viewing distances. And don't show me a close up of some ladies eyebrows viewed from 6 inches away. I sincerely doubt that doubt that good quality 4K material will look materially better on screens less than 10ft wide from normal viewing distances than upscaled 2K material. That said, a 4K display, all else being equal will just look damn better than a 2K display. Just ask anyone here who have owned both. Most 1000ES owners here would rank their purchase of a 1000ES as the best decision re HT they ever made.

So, the 1000ES throws a better picture than any projector? Even the SIM2 Lumis projectors?
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post #97 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Generation Y here. I have a pension and no kids! Yay for me biggrin.gif

If 4k costs $5,000 by next year (and it might), and you spend $15,000 now....
You retire at 70 (assuming you are about 25)

$137,646.11 + $5000 is what you paid to "RENT" 4K for the next 12 months assuming you only get a 6% return on your investments. Not to own it, but to rent it, since you could pay $5000 next year or the year after...

Now that is before a tax deferred adjustment which could increase that number much more if you instead put it in an HSA / IRA or whatever, because you are spending post-taxed money.

Or put another way, that $10,000 extra cost you at least $12,000 month for the next 12 months (though that amount will be somewhat deflated in real value by then). People that can drop $15,000 in non-essential spending just to get something SOONER than the Jones next door, better have a VERY high net worth, or they are surely being foolish with their money.

Or how does the saying go:
You are not approved boyfriend (only kidding, sorry couldn't resist)...


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post #98 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Could someone please tell me, WHO / why somebody - consumers, not professionals - is needing a reel 8K projector ( besides Wolfgang wink.gifbiggrin.gif ) or even a 4K to allmost 8K E-shift manipulation ? ( maybe a photographer, WHO wants to see his 30+ megapixels Pictures in full glory on a 200" screen !? )

And before someone says, yes there are a ( very ,very) few movies, who COULD end up with a resolution bigger then 4K, ( 65/70mm film, scannet, edited etc, but thats probely so expensive, that they chose to not do it anyway rolleyes.gif. ), and it will be so few ( for really many years ) that it cant be a markeded for any consumer brand Company !?, and even when new 8K digtal cameras arrive, it will take long time, before any has a selection to offer - and WHO will then see the ( small ? ) difference between 4K and 8K on screen´s in typical sizes at about 90 - 150 " ?

Or am I overlooking something ? ( perhaps beyond marketing hype nonsense about having the highest resolution / number wink.gifbiggrin.gif )

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you got me:)

many people ask me about 8k if i like it or not and i tell them i like it but not because of the difference
between 4k to 8k.
8k can do easy 4k in 3d:)

if your reach native good quality 4k resolution i mean not the low quality scanns from so la la 35mm film i mean true good quality 4k material
you are almost got all resolution you need when you sit about 1.0 times the screen wide back.
you need to get even more close to the screen to benifit from 8k and most people not like to sit that close to the picture!
to see all what 8k can have you need to sit only 0,4 time the screen wide back.
so if you have a 135" wide screen you need to sit in only 54" distance to the screen to see all this 8k!!!
for 4k you need to sit with this screen wide 121" away to see full 4k.

but no question some day we will see 8k not because its better for most because the Industrie can do it and they need something new.

but we will see Avatar 2 in 4k 3d at 60p sooner than 8k 2d and i bet this will be like a holo deck.
at least in "some" cinemas.

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post #99 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

So, the 1000ES throws a better picture than any projector? Even the SIM2 Lumis projectors?

The new Super Lumis projector is $60K MSRP. It is half the size of a 1000ES but it is much brighter. It is of course 1080p. I am presently installing both a 1100ES projector and a Super lumis in a house on Long Island. The screens are both 1.78, 140 inch wide viewing surfaces. The idea is the Super lumis will be used in a room where the windows would not be fully blacked out, though they are capable of being by a simple push of a button. All rooms have spectacular water views, all almost all glass. We are installing a 84 inch Somy 4K panel in each room so that all windows can be kept non blacked out.

The Sony to me is clearly better than the standard lumis. The lens in the Sony is clearly better than the lumis lenses, as it ought to be being 4K, no real compromises..

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post #100 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 06:15 PM
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If 4k costs $5,000 by next year (and it might), and you spend $15,000 now....
You retire at 70 (assuming you are about 25)

$137,646.11 + $5000 is what you paid to "RENT" 4K for the next 12 months assuming you only get a 6% return on your investments. Not to own it, but to rent it, since you could pay $5000 next year or the year after...

Now that is before a tax deferred adjustment which could increase that number much more if you instead put it in an HSA / IRA or whatever, because you are spending post-taxed money.

Or put another way, that $10,000 extra cost you at least $12,000 month for the next 12 months (though that amount will be somewhat deflated in real value by then). People that can drop $15,000 in non-essential spending just to get something SOONER than the Jones next door, better have a VERY high net worth, or they are surely being foolish with their money.

Or how does the saying go:
You are not approved boyfriend (only kidding, sorry couldn't resist)...

What if the Dow drops 10,000 points in another crash. Might as well enjoy your money on a new 4K projector if that makes you happy. Better buy it before the crash. I would. Hell, I have a lot more $ than a VW1000 in cellared wine.

I highly doubt a good 4K projector will be down to 5K street next year.

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post #101 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 06:18 PM
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So, the 1000ES throws a better picture than any projector? Even the SIM2 Lumis projectors?

Define " better ". Resolution is just one feature. There are a few folks on the 20K+ forum that recently chose a 3 chip DLP 1080p projector over a Sony VW1000 - so I'd say it depends on your theater / application / screen size. There is no one " best projector " for every use.

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post #102 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 06:18 PM
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A good B-Stock will probably be around that price in 1-2 years, and the vw1000es B-stock with the upgrade kit is around $15,000+ or more right now. Though if you are really well off, I see no problem with it, but us AVSr's aren't always the most athletic and in-shape couch potatoes out there, we are going to need our retirement for those heart-attack moments.

What we should do is form an AVS investors club and go by up all the left-over foreclosures around the US and rent them out. Then we can make our own Real Estate Investment Trust, and with our profit, we can buy out one of the manufactures and finally fix all the crap we've been complaining about for the last 10 years :_)


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post #103 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I have been told by one DLP projector manufacturer that TI has informed them they will be offering samples of a consumer 4K DMD chip in 2014 and production quantities in 2015. I would assume this new 4K DMD will be smaller and a lot cheaper than the current 4K DMD chips Ti makes for commercial 3-chip DLP projectors.
Thanks for the info....that is what I was curious about (I should have been more specific and mentioned consumer chips in my post asking about 4K DLP).

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post #104 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Define " better ". Resolution is just one feature. There are a few folks on the 20K+ forum that recently chose a 3 chip DLP 1080p projector over a Sony VW1000 - so I'd say it depends on your theater / application / screen size. There is no one " best projector " for every use.

I know resolution isn't everything. A 3 Chip DLP will show more detail in a 2K movie than a $3,000 JVC or Sony. So, what makes the Sony 1000ES better than an expensive 3 Chip DLP projector? Is it brighter, sharp, better lens?
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post #105 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Indeed. What I was thinking was that Sony intended to have their 4K model at the 95ES price point this year but failed, unintentionally leaving a gap in their range. It doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise as they could created a 97ES or something which was a slightly enhanced 95ES and got away with it smile.gif

I don't think Sony was ever shooting for 4K at VW95 price point. I thought they would bring out the 55 closer to the VW95 price point by adding lens memory and an improved lens. Like you, I am surprised by the big gap in their line up.

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post #106 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I know resolution isn't everything. A 3 Chip DLP will show more detail in a 2K movie than a $3,000 JVC or Sony. So, what makes the Sony 1000ES better than an expensive 3 Chip DLP projector? Is it brighter, sharp, better lens?

A three chip DLP by default doesn't guarantee anything. It's what you get given the price point of a three chip DLP that helps resolve more detail. A nice lens is almost a given when we're talking $15000+. You still have to take into consideration convergence errors and processing. That alone doesn't mean it will always be better than a three chip solution of another technology.
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post #107 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

A three chip DLP by default doesn't guarantee anything. It's what you get given the price point of a three chip DLP that helps resolve more detail. A nice lens is almost a given when we're talking $15000+. You still have to take into consideration convergence errors and processing. That alone doesn't mean it will always be better than a three chip solution of another technology.

So, a $30,000 3 Chip DLP doesn't give you 2000-6000 lumens with a very good lens? Do the 1000ES have a better lens and do it calibrate out to more lumens?
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post #108 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 08:55 PM
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That isn't what I said. My point here is that you can't make broad sweeping statements about any technology. There are several 1080p .65" DMD 3 Chip projectors that do not cost anywhere near $30000, that don't have an amazing lens, and don't put out anywhere near 2000-6000 calibrated lumens. What I was trying to say before is that given the price there are certain things you can expect and yes, at $30000 you can expect a great lens and high lumen output, but not all 3 chip DLPs are $30000 so you can't broadly make the assumption that they will resolve more detail because the truth of the matter is that isn't completely true. You need to be less vague and compare two specific products. The Sony 1000ES uses a much nicer lens than most consumer grade 3 chip DLPs. What's nice about the 1000ES is that its almost the best of both DLP and LCOS in the same package. You get that single chip DLP sharpness due to less obvious CA or convergence errors because of the the sheer amount of pixels and the amazing lens, unusually high ANSI contrast (over 700:1), great native and dynamic on/off contrast coupled with a fantastic DI, great native motion handling which is reportedly better than Sony's new 1080p SXRD panels, fantastic 3D without any reported flicker issues, and it's very bright at over 1600 lumens which is enough for most people.
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post #109 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

That isn't what I said. My point here is that you can't make broad sweeping statements about any technology. There are several 1080p .65" DMD 3 Chip projectors that do not cost anywhere near $30000, that don't have an amazing lens, and don't put out anywhere near 2000-6000 calibrated lumens. What I was trying to say beofore is that given the price there are certain things you can expect and yes, at $30000 you can expect a great lens and high lumen output, but not all 3 chip DLPs are $30000 so you can't broadly make the assumption that they will resolve more detail because the truth of the matter is that isn't completely true. You need to be less vague and compare two specific products. The Sony 1000ES uses a much nicer lens than most consumer grade 3 chip DLPs. What's nice about the 1000ES is that its almost the best of both DLP and LCOS in the same package. You get that single chip DLP sharpness due to less obvious CA or convergence errors because of the the sheer amount of pixels and the amazing lens, unusually high ANSI contrast (over 700:1), great native and dynamic on/off contrast coupled with a fantastic DI, great native motion handling which is reportedly better than Sony's new 1080p SXRD panels, fantastic 3D without any reported flicker issues, and it's very bright at over 1600 lumens which is enough for most people.

I think you took me asking a question as me making a statement. I did say a projector like a Lumis will show more detail than a $3000 Epson, Sony, or JVC. Better built projector and sharper, I don't think I'm wrong in saying that at all. I was asking what makes the 1000ES better, is it the lens or the calibrated lumens? Plus, the Sony doesn't calibrate to 1600 lumens. At least what I have read, it is between 1100-1200. Just because that's more than what the avg person needs, doesn't really matter. 750 is probably what most people need
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post #110 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 09:31 PM
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From what I've read, the lens on the 1000ES is definitely better than the one on the Lumis, the resolution increase almost necessitates it. This is why I'm a little worrisome when it comes time to retail a 4K machine around the $5000 mark. I'm going to wonder how much better they're going to look compared to a high end 1080p machine from an appropriate seating distance. But back to your question...Like Craig said above, there is no perfect projector for everyone but for most people with a modest screen size, say under 12' wide, the 1000ES seems to be one of the best, if not the best, option out there currently. I've sort of outlined the reasons for this in my previous post. Basically, get you get most of the benefits DLP has over 1080p LCOS machines, plus all the benefits LCOS 1080p has over DLP. If you need more lumens than this isn't the right choice.
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post #111 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 09:58 PM
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I really wanted to know the built of the two. Looks like the Sony 1000ES is built much more than its worth. Hopefully the JVCs next year can compete with it, rather than be a step below
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post #112 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 10:11 PM
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JVC isn't known for MSRPs as high as the 600ES let alone 1000ES so I doubt it will have an image as compelling or one with more fidelity. Though, I'm sure it will be nice. People will still confuse highest contrast performance as highest quality and label it as such.
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post #113 of 197 Old 09-15-2013, 11:33 PM
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I watched the Red Sox beat the Yankees tonight on my 1000ES and then the NFL game so I missed most of this babble.

It is important to note that the various Lumis' are 3 chip DLP while the Sony is three chip SXRD. Both technologies have various strengths and weaknesses

Assuming everything else is equal which it won't be, one could prefer one technology and its strengths over another. Most lumis' owned by AVS members probably were at $25K or under street.. Since that time which was what 5 or more years ago, the price has substantially inflated. The super lumis has a MSRP of $60K and weighs around 25 lbs.or costs about $2400/lb, Let assume the new Sony 1100ES lists at $28K. It ways 45 lbs.or rounding it cost about $600 per pound. The lens the lumis' use are used by many projectors. They are decent high quality 1080p lenses. However, there are better used on other projectors including more expensive ones sold by Sim2.

There are many 3 chip DLPs sold or offered out there. Cheap ones with small DLP chips, better ones with .95 chips. There are lots of expensive 3 chip DLP machines out and some throw a better picture than the older lumis and even the super lumis. Sim2 sells better 3 chip machines too. It all depends on the light out you need etc. But I am splitting hairs. Its all good The lumis throw a great picture. I prefer a 4K projector though. It is just realer to me. On my size screen in my HT, the Sony is the best projector I have seen and that includes lumis' I had in my theater before. But no, I did not a/b because the Sony didn't exist then. When my install is finished, probably in November, I will have a chance to A/B the two machines on the same size and fabric screens. Maybe I will prefer the Super lumis. It will throw a brighter picture and brightness can easily sway a preference. When installing I am not in the business of dialing down a machine so it can be compared at the same brightness. We are using a super lumis because it has the extra brightness and is one very good projector with notably improved contrast over the old lumis'..

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post #114 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 02:40 AM
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Going back to price one second, everyone said the same thing about 1080p and 3D and even 720p when it first came out. The first 2 years that it hit mainstream devices the price held somewhat, but towards the end of that time period some people were holding onto the fact that they'll never be a 3D DLP under $1000 for 3-5 years (2 years later, there were sub $700 3D 1080p DLP's). 1080p's used to cost $5000+, and a couple years later were down to $1500, then soon after under $1000.

4K will probably take a bit longer because it's not as mainstream, but the price in technology almost always goes off a cliff, no matter what it is. I am sure JVC can produce a lens good enough to do 4k under $10,000, it already has a pretty good lens in it anyways. 4k will remain expensive longer, but I don't see it holding above $10,000 for that much longer, it could but I really doubt it. It isn't going to be $800 anytime soon, but under $10,000 is expected, so $5000 isn't out of reach.

As far as motion goes, I thought we already discovered most of these projectors did not do that much better than the other in motion resolution, other than some high-end DLP's. If I recall the Sony hw30 and hw50 didn't really have the great motion resolution people were expecting if you go by the measured number. No idea on the vw1000es's motion resolution though.


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post #115 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 09:43 AM
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JVC isn't known for MSRPs as high as the 600ES let alone 1000ES so I doubt it will have an image as compelling or one with more fidelity. Though, I'm sure it will be nice. People will still confuse highest contrast performance as highest quality and label it as such.

Similar to the way they confuse high brightness as quality and label it as such. What people are looking for in a projector varies considerably based on what they watch and where they watch it. While the Sony throws a great image I wouldn't replace my X75 for it given my viewing conditions and preferences. Same goes for a Lumis. But both throw a great image.

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post #116 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 12:08 PM
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Exactly. The problem is that contrast is the first thing that jumps out to people and they sometimes forget contrast isn't the only thing that makes up a quality picture. The reasons you keep your X75 have nothing to do with why I don't want to own a JVC currently. The things I don't like about JVC's DiLA projectors are tremendously better with Sony's 4K SXRD panels, light engine, and lens. Different people, different priorities.
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post #117 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 12:21 PM
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Its like seeing a beautiful woman in the nude that has been sunbathing only wearing a bikini. Now I remember one woman in the nude where the only tan areas were the areas normally covered by the bikini. Go figure.
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post #118 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 01:01 PM
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Its like seeing a beautiful woman in the nude that has been....

LOL. I only had to see that part in the "last post" preview for this thread and I knew it was a Mark Haflich post.
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post #119 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

JVC isn't known for MSRPs as high as the 600ES let alone 1000ES so I doubt it will have an image as compelling or one with more fidelity. Though, I'm sure it will be nice. People will still confuse highest contrast performance as highest quality and label it as such.

So MSRP alone equals quality? Or are some trying to justify the higher than expected Sony price this time? Ultimately we will see based on relative performance compared to price
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post #120 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 07:24 PM
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Exactly. The problem is that contrast is the first thing that jumps out to people and they sometimes forget contrast isn't the only thing that makes up a quality picture. The reasons you keep your X75 have nothing to do with why I don't want to own a JVC currently. The things I don't like about JVC's DiLA projectors are tremendously better with Sony's 4K SXRD panels, light engine, and lens. Different people, different priorities.

Interesting. The new lamp in my JVC has been stable for nearly 500 hours with no shift in gamma and barely 2 fL lost in brightness. The lens has pretty much zero CA and astounding pixel focus (better than any Sony I've ever tested) and I have no issues with convergence. I would love to compare a 1000ES in my room and see what would really throw a better picture. Might have to arrange that soon.

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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