JVC RANGE 2014 2015 : Native 4K with E-SHIFT and simulated 8K - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 08:31 PM
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When did I say that? The consumer decides the value of the product. As you move up in price the performance doesn't rise at the same rate as the price, though, which is why the consumer needs to decide the value in relation to other products. If the value of the product isn't worth the expense the consumer will not buy the product. An example of this would be the Sharp XV-Z30000. There were very few people who bought that product at first because it's performance was nowhere near the asking price compared to other products that were being offered at the same price. It was only until the price came down considerably they were purchased. With projectors, most of the time, they are priced correctly in relation to value. I think JVC projectors put out a great picture and are the best value in the under $3000 market. But once you start to move up to their more expensive projectors I think their value goes down considerably. At the asking price of the 1000ES you get a product with considerably high quality components where the JVC is sort of a compromise on quality. The high end JVCs are almost the same projectors as the low end machines but use components that come the closest to spec. This is why I don't believe the value of the high end JVC is anywhere near the Sony. Yes, you get hand picked components but the cost of those components are the same as the ones used in their low end projector. That doesn't make it a bad projector but I think the quality of the components, especially the lens, is severely limited because of this. You do get the e-shift glass, more contrast and some extra processing, but I don't think those two things equate to an increase in price of several thousands more. As you can tell, I'm not the biggest fan of JVC and I'm sure my post will receive lots of responses with people telling me how wrong I am. I should rephrase that, I'm a huge fan of JVC low end projectors as I find their value to be unbeatable but I don't see the value in their higher priced units.
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post #122 of 197 Old 09-16-2013, 08:47 PM
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Some people just have to have the best and can afford to do so regardless of the incremental performance value. Many consumers are very brand loyal and want to buy the best in that brand.

I have a rare breed giant dog. A greater swiss Mountain dog just like Lon. Its expensive and the medical costs are very high as the dog ages.


My wife and I feel she is the best thing we ever bought. I love my dog. Some people love their projector the same way.

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post #123 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 03:55 AM
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Geez Mark, I hope people don't love their projectors like they would a pet. That is all a bit too sad for me!


In response to Dylan, I just want to correct a factual inaccuracy in what you said. You said, the higher models are just hand picked component versions of the budget model. The ONLY model with hand picked parts is the top one. We have had discussions on forums before about the value/return of such a model because the price differential is significant and the law of diminishing returns is ever present.

In previous years where there have been three models, e.g. X30, X70, X90, the X70 is actually the one that would have had the highest expectations of a purchaser. The X30 is so good value that even if its not perfect, you would forgive it because of its price. Although there are some budding enthusiasts on this forum, I am told that X90s have found their way into swimming pools, or into houses with totally inappropriate rooms where the purchase simply wants the best but has no idea what to do with it. A lot of X90s never ever get calibrated. The X70 however is almost always purchased by an enthusiast and comes under the closest scrutiny. The X70 did not have handpicked parts. But it had significant additional hardware. It had the dual aperture mechanism, it had e-shift, xenon bulb simulation (extra electronically inserted filter), and many more software options like the CMS). It also added VGA and a motorised lens door as well as certifications like THX. Primarily because of the new aperture mechanism the X70 had superior contrast although the panels were slightly better to start with.

This year JVC introduced a fourth model which became the new home for the enthusiast. The separation between the X55 and X75 made the value proposition of the X75 a little less clear. The X55 was an X35 with e-shift and CMS. The X75 retained its differential with dual aperture, xenon bulb simulation, motorized lens door and slightly better panels. Additionally this year they added auto-calibration to the X75. But the pricepoint of the X75 meant that most enthusiasts chose the X55,

Kris, I think its fair to say you got lucky with your projector. You know very well that there is a huge variance between units from both JVC and Sony. You tested an X95 and found your X75 had better convergence for example. My X75 has good convergence. It also has good pixel focus in the centre, but not so strong towards the lower side where it becomes softer particularly in red (use the built-in convergence test screen with all the colours separated, don't just evaluate green). I do run at shortest throw, but the X70 I had before it had better focus uniformity in exactly the same position. However, as the X75 is pin sharp for the central screen area, I never notice the discrepancy. The X75 has superb greyfield uniformity whereas the X70 was not s good....and the X70 had poor convergence. It is because they are NOT hand selected in any way, that the variance is significant. My X75 also exceeds its stated spec for contrast which was the biggest surprise.

An X75 sells for 6500 UK pounds street price. The Sony VW500 is expected to sell street for 8500. That's 30% more expensive.
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post #124 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Interesting. The new lamp in my JVC has been stable for nearly 500 hours with no shift in gamma and barely 2 fL lost in brightness. The lens has pretty much zero CA and astounding pixel focus (better than any Sony I've ever tested) and I have no issues with convergence. I would love to compare a 1000ES in my room and see what would really throw a better picture. Might have to arrange that soon.

I wish you would:) as I still have to kick myself everytime I turn on my X90 as the picture it throws is outstanding. 1850 hours and counting, jsust changed the Lamp.
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post #125 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 05:10 AM
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I wish you would:) as I still have to kick myself everytime I turn on my X90 as the picture it throws is outstanding. 1850 hours and counting, jsust changed the Lamp.

I've had my X90 for about 9 months now and just at about 250hrs or so. Are you saying you got 1800 out of your 1st bulb?

In the 1st 100 hrs my bulb dropped 8% but I haven't measured it since. I made some adjustments and re-calibrated from a higher starting point and managed to get 5% of that back so pretty happy but I haven't reached that 500 hour mark yet where it can all start going very dim.

I too have to lift my jaw from the floor sometimes when I switch on the X90 - it can throw a stunning picture.

In reference to the conversation about paying extra for the premium model - not sure if its worth the extra but then again, all depends how good an X70 you get. My X90 is very very good with focus uniformity and convergence and its pretty much as perfect as I could ask for. I had an X70 side by side in my room shooting from the same position as the X90 and there wasn't a lot in it. I guess your paying for the 'guarantee' of getting a good unit however thats not to say it will be better than each of the lower models - the parts lottery could actually work in your favour with the X70/X75 as some have illustrated.
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post #126 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 05:50 AM
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I've had my X90 for about 9 months now and just at about 250hrs or so. Are you saying you got 1800 out of your 1st bulb?.

1053 Hours 117 wide 1.2gain 17ft/L
1250 JVC offered Lamp for £120 dimmed out of spec (asked for pic of hours as proof) 14ft/L (13 months old)
1840 hours Last 200 has been used for Live sport 5 ft/L
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post #127 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

1053 Hours 117 wide 1.2gain 17ft/L
1250 JVC offered Lamp for £120 dimmed out of spec (asked for pic of hours as proof) 14ft/L (13 months old)
1840 hours Last 200 has been used for Live sport 5 ft/L

What aspect ratio (guessing 2.35) and what screen material are you using? Are you using an A-lens or zooming?

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post #128 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 07:08 AM
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What aspect ratio (guessing 2.35) and what screen material are you using? Are you using an A-lens or zooming?

Yes 2:35 white 1.2gain zooming - You wanting to check my conversions?

151 Lux @1053 Hrs 17ft/L.
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post #129 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 07:21 AM
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I hope you guys never watch a X90 together, All I can visualize is a jaw dropping to the floor, the other person bending down to help pick it up, and then getting kicked in the posterior. Sounds like a CRT meet.

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post #130 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 07:29 AM
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I hope you guys never watch a X90 together, All I can visualize is a jaw dropping to the floor, the other person bending down to help pick it up, and then getting kicked in the posterior. Sounds like a CRT meet.
Hello, I'm 12 years old and what is this?
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post #131 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 09:36 AM
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I just received The CEDA daily and there is a full page ad for JVC asking visitors to join them in their VIP suite at the Embassy Suites hotels across from the convention center. They are calling their reference series projectors Ultra HD 4K. Unless they have some surprises this seems like a false use of the term 4K. Nothing about HDMI 2.0 or anything else.
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post #132 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 10:41 AM
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Yeah, this has been discussed already earlier in the thread with a link to the ad, many believe they are showing a UHD projector that will be coming out next year or so while others aren't sure if they are labeling this years eshift models falsely.

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post #133 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 11:16 AM
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Oh, ok...so apparently this means that, contrary to previous rumors, JVC actually is introducing real 4K projectors this year. (I'm sure they wouldn't invite people with an advert that promises Ultra HD 4K projectors only to
say "nah, just kidding...it's just E-shift again!")

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I just received The CEDA daily and there is a full page ad for JVC asking visitors to join them in their VIP suite at the Embassy Suites hotels across from the convention center. They are calling their reference series projectors Ultra HD 4K. Unless they have some surprises this seems like a false use of the term 4K. Nothing about HDMI 2.0 or anything else.


The ad says: "Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors and Reference Series Projectors".

The term Ultra HD has a specific definition as per ITU standards and while the JVC 84" monitor may deserve that name, the eShift 4K-lite projectors do not satisfy what ITU defines as the most basic requirements for the 4K version of UHD (i.e., 3840 x 2180 pixels with all individually addressable). JVC has already been using the term 4K for their eShift projectors and that term by itself does not have a formal definition by ITU so while its a little misleading, I would not call that false advertising. However, when the terms "4K UHD" for "UHD 4K" really should be only used with products that meet the basic capabilities defined by ITU for UHD. I would note that in the above quote from the JVC ad, one might argue (but it would be a stretch) that the term "Ultra HD 4K" only applies to the 84" monitors and they are just saying they will also be showing their new RS projectors at the same off-site location. In any case I wouldn't read too much into that ad as to what JVC will be offering, projector-wise, in their new projector line-up. From the info leaked in Europe it appears the new JVC projectors are using HDMI 1.4 inputs and they can only support a 4K signal input at greater than 30Hz by using two HDMI inputs (i.e., supporting up to 4K @ 60Hz). However, I really doubt that future 4K sources that can provide 4K @ 60Hz will support such a dual HDMI arrangement as HDMI 2.0 is already included on many products hitting the marketplace within the next few months (e.g.., Sony and Panasonic UHD TVs, projectors, PS4, etc.). Perhaps JVC has plans to offer, in the future, an outboard adapter box that has one HDMI 2.0 input (to connect to future 4K sources) and dual HDMI 1.4 outputs (to connect to the projector). I guess we will know a lot more next week (JVC press conf. 8:15am Thurs. morning).


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post #134 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 11:34 AM
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"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors and Reference Series Projectors".

I do not see this as a stretch at all. JVC is saying to come experience the thrilling realism of their monitors and projectors. They added a little description to the monitors, telling people they are ultra HD 4k. All they are saying in regards to the projectors is that they have thrilling realism.

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post #135 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors and Reference Series Projectors".

I do not see this as a stretch at all. JVC is saying to come experience the thrilling realism of their monitors and projectors. They added a little description to the monitors, telling people they are ultra HD 4k. All they are saying in regards to the projectors is that they have thrilling realism.
Yeah, but that UltraHD 4K title above it is misleading as is their wording cause if they worded it correctly it would be

"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Reference Series Projectors and Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors."



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post #136 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:04 PM
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Yeah, but that UltraHD 4K title above it is misleading as is their wording cause if they worded it correctly it would be

"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Reference Series Projectors and Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors."



Mike

Per the context of the english language, there is nothing wrong with the wording JVC used. The word "and" does not link the reference projector to Ultra HD 4K. And links the reference projectors to realism. JVC could have just as well said:
"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors and have some cookies."
Would not mean the cookies are Ultra HD 4K cookies.
People are wanting to see 4K in the new projectors and are jumping to conclusions when seeing the wording for 4K.

People would have something to complain about if JVC had said: Experience Ultra HD 4k with JVC's new monitors and projectors.

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post #137 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:12 PM
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Mike,

I guess me wanting a 4k UHD JVC projector this fall has me reading it how I want to take it to be satisfied. wink.gif

I would like some Ultra HD 4k cookies though. biggrin.gif


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post #138 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Mike,

I guess me wanting a 4k UHD JVC projector this fall has me reading it how I want to take it to be satisfied. wink.gif

I would like some Ultra HD 4k cookies though. biggrin.gif

Mike

Like you, I also want 4K. smile.gif Would love a VW1000ES, but not in my price bracket.

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post #139 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Like you, I also want 4K. smile.gif Would love a VW1000ES, but not in my price bracket.

Are you going to Cedia next week? If so it will be great hearing from you how the new JVC's look especially vs. the Sony VW600.

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post #140 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:30 PM
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Are you going to Cedia next week? If so it will be great hearing from you how the new JVC's look especially vs. the Sony VW600.

Thanks,
Mike

Yes, I will be there, checking out both, since my short list is the replacement for the 56 and the Sony 4K.

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post #141 of 197 Old 09-17-2013, 12:48 PM
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Yes, I will be there, checking out both, since my short list is the replacement for the 56 and the Sony 4K.

Excellent, as those are the exact 2 on my list.

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post #142 of 197 Old 09-18-2013, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Per the context of the english language, there is nothing wrong with the wording JVC used. The word "and" does not link the reference projector to Ultra HD 4K. And links the reference projectors to realism. JVC could have just as well said:
"Experience first-hand the thrilling realism of JVC's new Ultra HD 4K 84" monitors and have some cookies."
Would not mean the cookies are Ultra HD 4K cookies.
People are wanting to see 4K in the new projectors and are jumping to conclusions when seeing the wording for 4K.

People would have something to complain about if JVC had said: Experience Ultra HD 4k with JVC's new monitors and projectors.

This is the AVS Forum. Over the years it has remained open for basically anybody to complain about anything related to HT and to proffer conspiracy theories. Complaints can not be validly be limited to justified ones and logic is of no use in convincing someone that a complaint is unjustified. The right to bitch is protected by the US Constitution and the general futility of the anti bitch as been well documented. Sent straight from outside the area 51 fence.

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post #143 of 197 Old 09-18-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

This is the AVS Forum. Over the years it has remained open for basically anybody to complain about anything related to HT and to proffer conspiracy theories. Complaints can not be validly be limited to justified ones and logic is of no use in convincing someone that a complaint is unjustified. The right to bitch is protected by the US Constitution and the general futility of the anti bitch as been well documented. Sent straight from outside the area 51 fence.

Are you representing Mr. Wilson in this legal matter and do I need to direct all correspondence through you? biggrin.gif

CEDIA needs to get here. smile.gif

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post #144 of 197 Old 09-18-2013, 08:37 AM
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CEDIA needs to get here. smile.gif

A really big PLUS 1!

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post #145 of 197 Old 09-18-2013, 09:04 AM
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Are you representing Mr. Wilson in this legal matter and do I need to direct all correspondence through you? biggrin.gif

CEDIA needs to get here. smile.gif

And to think I was going to go with a public defender so as to save money for a new UHD 4k projector. Now I've got Mr. Haflich defending me.......is that a good or bad thing? biggrin.gif

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post #146 of 197 Old 09-21-2013, 04:40 PM
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Wondering about this intelligent iris thing, JVC has been anti DI.....as they are the champion of native CR, but I wonder if they have implimented an iris that closes for full fade to black scenes.

Now I'd like to see that!

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post #147 of 197 Old 09-22-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

you got me:)

many people ask me about 8k if i like it or not and i tell them i like it but not because of the difference
between 4k to 8k.
8k can do easy 4k in 3d:)
if your reach native good quality 4k resolution i mean not the low quality scanns from so la la 35mm film i mean true good quality 4k material
you are almost got all resolution you need when you sit about 1.0 times the screen wide back.
you need to get even more close to the screen to benifit from 8k and most people not like to sit that close to the picture!
to see all what 8k can have you need to sit only 0,4 time the screen wide back.
so if you have a 135" wide screen you need to sit in only 54" distance to the screen to see all this 8k!!!
for 4k you need to sit with this screen wide 121" away to see full 4k.

but no question some day we will see 8k not because its better for most because the Industrie can do it and they need something new.

but we will see Avatar 2 in 4k 3d at 60p sooner than 8k 2d and i bet this will be like a holo deck.
at least in "some" cinemas.

wolfgang


W.

As usual, you have a really good point with a reasonable argument for 8K ( had forgotten about 3D in 4K )

- when I saw the passive 3D ( full HD on both eyes) on the KD84X9005,
It was only then that I actually think that 3D could be on a quality level, the glasses (passive're also lovely light and comfortable - but the active fortunately also improved gradually, see eg. TDG BT500A) could be an acceptable evil, compared with the profit.

Even my 1000ES is not on par with the quality of the 84 "screen in 3D IMO , but maybe your impressive two 4K passive 3D Bacho machines can !?


dj
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post #148 of 197 Old 09-22-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Wondering about this intelligent iris thing, JVC has been anti DI.....as they are the champion of native CR, but I wonder if they have implimented an iris that closes for full fade to black scenes.

Now I'd like to see that!

I'm intrigued too, but the last couple generations of JVC projectors have incorporated a dual iris system, so it could also be just a "more intelligent" implementation of that system, and not a dynamic iris per se.
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post #149 of 197 Old 09-23-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I'm intrigued too, but the last couple generations of JVC projectors have incorporated a dual iris system, so it could also be just a "more intelligent" implementation of that system, and not a dynamic iris per se.

Clamping the iris in fade to black moments, upon the detection of such a signal would be terrific. I'm quite happy with current CR levels in mixed scenes...it's those fade to black moments that need to be addressed IMO.

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
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post #150 of 197 Old 09-23-2013, 09:40 PM
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I'll be waiting for HDMI 2, a UHD disk format (I want 12" LDs back - but in blu-ray technology), oh and most important sub-$10k price. I'm guessing 2 years before I enter the market. 'till then 1080p makes me happy - so much better than the SD projector I started with 10 years ago.
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