JVC RANGE 2014 2015 : Native 4K with E-SHIFT and simulated 8K - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 197 Old 09-23-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Clamping the iris in fade to black moments, upon the detection of such a signal would be terrific. I'm quite happy with current CR levels in mixed scenes...it's those fade to black moments that need to be addressed IMO.

This serves no practicle purpose though. How often do true fade to black moments happen in real world content? Not as many as JVC would consider enough to implement a DI for this specific purpose. If you're looking for strict black level performance increases I'd recommend a good ND filter. JVC would never invest in R&D for such a limited use mechanism.

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post #152 of 197 Old 09-23-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

This serves no practicle purpose though. How often do true fade to black moments happen in real world content? Not as many as JVC would consider enough to implement a DI for this specific purpose. If you're looking for strict black level performance increases I'd recommend a good ND filter. JVC would never invest in R&D for such a limited use mechanism.

Beg to differ....a fade to black and maintaing the lack of light to the screen adds to the involvement . The eyes iris opening up and thus the lighting of the blacks ruin such scenes.

The total lack of light hitting the screen, would be a good selling point and would win points/sales during demos.

Agree there few moments in movies with extended fade to blacks...but when they are there the difference of lack of light helps maintain the illusion.

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post #153 of 197 Old 09-23-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Beg to differ....a fade to black and maintaing the lack of light to the screen adds to the involvement . The eyes iris opening up and thus the lighting of the blacks ruin such scenes.

The total lack of light hitting the screen, would be a good selling point and would win points/sales during demos.

Agree there few moments in movies with extended fade to blacks...but when they are there the difference of lack of light helps maintain the illusion.

I would love to see total fade to black also between such things as title logos, but even the cinema never allowed such a thing. The black on 35MM film between fadeouts on logos never faded to total black. The carbon arc then Xenon lamps still passed light through the total black scenes which still showed as dark grey on the screen...sadly. mad.gif

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post #154 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Beg to differ....a fade to black and maintaing the lack of light to the screen adds to the involvement . The eyes iris opening up and thus the lighting of the blacks ruin such scenes.

The total lack of light hitting the screen, would be a good selling point and would win points/sales during demos.

Agree there few moments in movies with extended fade to blacks...but when they are there the difference of lack of light helps maintain the illusion.

They already have such a lower black level compared to the competition there's no motivation for them to invest money in such things. My LED projector had a true fade to black feature with the DI where the LEDs would literally turn off. I honestly didn't think it added to the "involvement" of the content I was watching, but rather I think it looked odd. Not because it wasn't implemented well, but because it seemed there wasn't an image being displayed (obviously) and looked weird because of it. I'm telling you JVC will never implement such a feature and for those looking for a quick fix an ND filter will help you out tremendously.

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post #155 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 01:57 AM
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I did mention this some years back re a shutter for total FTB, someone said Barco or Christie has such a shutter that is implimented in such a manner.

Think of the side by side demos with a Sony 1000 to demo black level........it would launch a 1000 ships.........er........I mean sell a 1000 JVC projectors!!..... biggrin.gif

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post #156 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 02:01 AM
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This discussion all centers around the leak of information regarding the forthcoming models with the cryptic "intelligent aperture" feature.

If JVC did add a dynamic iris they wouldn't need it to have the level of range as a Sony, because the panels are already natively that much better. But I do agree a true fade to black would be very odd. Imagine the credits where the name appears in the middle and then it goes black, and then the next name appears, then it goes black. It could look very odd indeed If the light was totally muted during the blank bits and it would not look natural.

So what else could this feature be? The only thing I came up with which I mentioned previously, is a feature particularly suited to the 2 higher models (which have the snap-in colour filter), to equalize the light output as you change projector modes. So if you use a preset with a filter, vs one without, vs 3D, that the aperture automatically adjusts to compensate for the light disparity between modes so that you see a stable light output.

If it is a dynamic iris, I would have expected JVC to advertise their new models with the new contrast figures, but so far the published numbers look similar to last years. JVC is no strange to playing the numbers game. Lumens are always expressed in a mode that is not desirable and is far away from D65. Contrast is based on the aperture being fully closed and long throw. When the aperture is fully closed on the higher models with dual aperture, the light output is very low (much lower than the aperture closed on the lower models). Therefore they achieve a higher contrast, but for many it is unusable due to the low light output. So I am sure if JVC had added a dynamic iris, they would be quoting some silly contrast numbers instead!

Well, we will know very soon indeed now.....
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post #157 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'm telling you JVC will never implement such a feature and for those looking for a quick fix an ND filter will help you out tremendously.


....hmmm....Never say Never!

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post #158 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

This discussion all centers around the leak of information regarding the forthcoming models with the cryptic "intelligent aperture" feature.

If JVC did add a dynamic iris they wouldn't need it to have the level of range as a Sony, because the panels are already natively that much better. But I do agree a true fade to black would be very odd. Imagine the credits where the name appears in the middle and then it goes black, and then the next name appears, then it goes black. It could look very odd indeed If the light was totally muted during the blank bits and it would not look natural.

So what else could this feature be? The only thing I came up with which I mentioned previously, is a feature particularly suited to the 2 higher models (which have the snap-in colour filter), to equalize the light output as you change projector modes. So if you use a preset with a filter, vs one without, vs 3D, that the aperture automatically adjusts to compensate for the light disparity between modes so that you see a stable light output.

If it is a dynamic iris, I would have expected JVC to advertise their new models with the new contrast figures, but so far the published numbers look similar to last years. JVC is no strange to playing the numbers game. Lumens are always expressed in a mode that is not desirable and is far away from D65. Contrast is based on the aperture being fully closed and long throw. When the aperture is fully closed on the higher models with dual aperture, the light output is very low (much lower than the aperture closed on the lower models). Therefore they achieve a higher contrast, but for many it is unusable due to the low light output. So I am sure if JVC had added a dynamic iris, they would be quoting some silly contrast numbers instead!

Well, we will know very soon indeed now.....

I'm not talking about fade to black for short periods like between credits.....but where the FTB is long enough for the eyes iris to open up and for black to be seen as grey.

The implimentation of an iris closing and then opening will look similar to a fade out/in....but with absolute black when a pure black image is on the screen....CRT projection has had it all along.....a much lauded quality, which could be emulated by such a device.

As you said we'll know soon. Once solid state light sources become the norm, such a feature may be implimented...DD...Dynamic Dimming.

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post #159 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

They already have such a lower black level compared to the competition there's no motivation for them to invest money in such things. My LED projector had a true fade to black feature with the DI where the LEDs would literally turn off. I honestly didn't think it added to the "involvement" of the content I was watching, but rather I think it looked odd. Not because it wasn't implemented well, but because it seemed there wasn't an image being displayed (obviously) and looked weird because of it. I'm telling you JVC will never implement such a feature and for those looking for a quick fix an ND filter will help you out tremendously.

Seegs. You are much smarter than that. No motivation? Please. JVC unlike most other projector companies has trained its customers to flip their machine every year (sort of like a new car model every year on the same chassis). To buy this year's machine which is much better, has critical features that were missing, cures problems, yada yada. The need new hooks every year. They engineer some, they license some, and, some maintain (not me), their marketing department and ads create some by lauding unnoticeable or insignificant improvements. Personally, if I were a consumer of machines at the JVC entry e shift price class, I would probably be flipping each year and glad I did it. Even if the improvements are minor, there will be at least some good ones, and it would get me the new projector smell and you can't get that in a perfume bottle. I hope the sum of everything done this year is a home run for JVC.

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post #160 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I'm not talking about fade to black for short periods like between credits.....but where the FTB is long enough for the eyes iris to open up and for black to be seen as grey.

The implimentation of an iris closing and then opening will look similar to a fade out/in....but with absolute black when a pure black image is on the screen....CRT projection has had it all along.....a much lauded quality, which could be emulated by such a device.

As you said we'll know soon. Once solid state light sources become the norm, such a feature may be implimented...DD...Dynamic Dimming.

Don't think that would be possible as for that to work, you would need the projector looking at the frames that are in the future as how would it be able to tell if it was a temporary black or a longer term one. Unless of course you had some sort of lag for audio and video and everything ran together, albeit a few seconds behind. But thats unlikely to happen IMO.
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post #161 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Seegs. You are much smarter than that. No motivation? Please. JVC unlike most other projector companies has trained its customers to flip their machine every year (sort of like a new car model every year on the same chassis). To buy this year's machine which is much better, has critical features that were missing, cures problems, yada yada. The need new hooks every year. They engineer some, they license some, and, some maintain (not me), their marketing department and ads create some by lauding unnoticeable or insignificant improvements. Personally, if I were a consumer of machines at the JVC entry e shift price class, I would probably be flipping each year and glad I did it. Even if the improvements are minor, there will be at least some good ones, and it would get me the new projector smell and you can't get that in a perfume bottle. I hope the sum of everything done this year is a home run for JVC.

I guess I've been looking at this the wrong way. This could be their gimmick of the year to get people to double, triple, or even quadruple dip into a new JVC model that performs almost exactly the same as the previous generation. tongue.gif There hasn't been any significant upgrades since the RS40 with their entry level models imo.

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post #162 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 10:12 AM
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how is JVC any different than the other projector manufacturers offering relatively minor updates when trying to sell the new features of the upcoming models.

In this price range, Sony, Epson and Panasonic all do the same thing - advertise fancy new features that may, or may not actually increase the PQ from 1 model to year to the next.

Folks sold their HW30 to get the HW50. Some will sell the HW50 to get the HW55. Same thing with 5010/5020 -> 5030, Panasonic 7000-8000, etc. none are ground-breaking updates yet the CEM's fancy up the new details for 'new and improved'.

I don't see how JVC specifically 'hooks' their customers into yearly updates vs. any other marketing tactics from their competitors.


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post #163 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

how is JVC any different than the other projector manufacturers offering relatively minor updates when trying to sell the new features of the upcoming models.

I agree... so much easier with DLP... with the exception of 3D, my 5yr old projector is state of the art wink.gif

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post #164 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

how is JVC any different than the other projector manufacturers offering relatively minor updates when trying to sell the new features of the upcoming models.

In this price range, Sony, Epson and Panasonic all do the same thing - advertise fancy new features that may, or may not actually increase the PQ from 1 model to year to the next.

Folks sold their HW30 to get the HW50. Some will sell the HW50 to get the HW55. Same thing with 5010/5020 -> 5030, Panasonic 7000-8000, etc. none are ground-breaking updates yet the CEM's fancy up the new details for 'new and improved'.

I don't see how JVC specifically 'hooks' their customers into yearly updates vs. any other marketing tactics from their competitors.

Those get a pass, even tho jvc add useful features every year
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post #165 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 10:47 AM
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From forum posts, I feel JVC owners tend to flip models more frequently than other brands. I am not being critical here. Sony tends to operate on a 2 year cycle At the higher price points, a yearly flip strategy would not be very successful. At the JVC entry 4K e-shift level it would be more successful and the yearly improvements and features to many would be worth the yearly flip. Many feel that because JVC has the highest native on off, their machines constitutes a reference class machine and want to maintain that high status by not missing a round of improvements..

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post #166 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 07:23 PM
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I think JVCs are a bit more popular to flip because of the excellent preorder pricing. If you sell the previous model before Cedia and then jump on the preorder price for the "updated" model, you can do it for relatively little out of pocket (at least on the entry level models). Having said that, my motivation has dropped off to play that game last year and this after seeing literally ZERO difference in 2d between my 40 and 45. It's nice having the current model, but when the real world differences are next to nothing it kind of kills the motivation to go through all the hassle of selling, preordering and waiting on the new model. I found it MUCH more exciting going from my RS1 to the RS40 where there were noticeable 2d improvements all around, not to mention getting 3d as well (as gimped as it was).

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post #167 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 07:46 PM
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I think JVC's have improved more than most of the other brands to be honest. Sony still has the soft lens on the sub $10,000 entry-levels, Sony has had a soft lens for years from what I've seen, since the hw30's, hw10's, vw60's/vw70's.
Epson hasn't changed much in 2D since the 8700ub, though it is quite a bit brighter now in best mode and has more features, a tad sharper on average. The RS-45 wasn't much of an improvement over the RS-40, but the RS-46 was an improvement for sure, if nothing else the lamps and better post-calibration color (and better OOTB color), and better OOTB gamma.

I didn't resell my JVC only because it is hard to find one with such perfect convergence as mine, not impossible, but about 1 in 4 chance or less, so not easy. Plus from Zombie's comparison, E-shift 2 sounded like a set-back, so the only upgrade for me would have been to the RS-55.

Though the fact I had to quarantine my HT room for a day and was exposed to moderate levels of mercury (equivalent of eating 50 cans of tuna in one sitting?) gives a good reason to upgrade.



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post #168 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 07:58 PM
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I just picked up my X55R from FedEx today and I'm itching to get it home to check out the convergence and lens sample. If it's as good as the X3 I had I'll be extremely satisfied. The X30 I had was good on convergence but I think the lens sample was fairly bad. I couldn't get the focus to clamp as tightly as the X3 which gave the image softer apperance. 3 more hours....

I'm a little sad. I dropped off the PD8!50 when I picked up the X55R. If I'm dissapounted I think I may go back to the PD8150 once one goes on sale. I had too many projectors in my apartment and I sold the PD8150 for a great price so I'm not too dissapointed.

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post #169 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 08:09 PM
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...Sony still has the soft lens on the sub $10,000 entry-levels, Sony has had a soft lens for years from what I've seen, since the hw30's, hw10's, vw60's/vw70's...

*cough* VW95? Priced right in the mix with the mid-level JVC's, with a similar-quality lens.

I've owned both,and am a lens nerd extraordinaire, but this viewpoint isn't unique to me.
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post #170 of 197 Old 09-24-2013, 08:22 PM
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Don't think that would be possible as for that to work, you would need the projector looking at the frames that are in the future as how would it be able to tell if it was a temporary black or a longer term one. Unless of course you had some sort of lag for audio and video and everything ran together, albeit a few seconds behind. But thats unlikely to happen IMO.

Currently a DI responds to a Highj/Mid/Low APL scene and opens/closes the iris/ adjusts gamma as required....the full closing of the iris will only need to respond an absolute low level and open up on anything above that.

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post #171 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think JVC's have improved more than most of the other brands to be honest. Sony still has the soft lens on the sub $10,000 entry-levels, Sony has had a soft lens for years from what I've seen, since the hw30's, hw10's, vw60's/vw70's.
Epson hasn't changed much in 2D since the 8700ub, though it is quite a bit brighter now in best mode and has more features, a tad sharper on average. The RS-45 wasn't much of an improvement over the RS-40, but the RS-46 was an improvement for sure, if nothing else the lamps and better post-calibration color (and better OOTB color), and better OOTB gamma.

I didn't resell my JVC only because it is hard to find one with such perfect convergence as mine, not impossible, but about 1 in 4 chance or less, so not easy. Plus from Zombie's comparison, E-shift 2 sounded like a set-back, so the only upgrade for me would have been to the RS-55.

Though the fact I had to quarantine my HT room for a day and was exposed to moderate levels of mercury (equivalent of eating 50 cans of tuna in one sitting?) gives a good reason to upgrade.


Let me guess. Nice job in changing a bulb? Or did it just blow up inside the machine?

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post #172 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I just picked up my X55R from FedEx today and I'm itching to get it home to check out the convergence and lens sample. If it's as good as the X3 I had I'll be extremely satisfied. The X30 I had was good on convergence but I think the lens sample was fairly bad. I couldn't get the focus to clamp as tightly as the X3 which gave the image softer apperance. 3 more hours....

I'm a little sad. I dropped off the PD8!50 when I picked up the X55R. If I'm dissapounted I think I may go back to the PD8150 once one goes on sale. I had too many projectors in my apartment and I sold the PD8150 for a great price so I'm not too dissapointed.


I currently have only one projector. I think have a lot of different projectors in one HT is a little like having multiple intimate girlfriends (intimate with you and NOT each other) living at your place and only doing one on ones. You will tend to favor one or two over the rest. And the bulbs will be aging in all of them. Its best to thin the forest down to a more manageable garden and if you can get cash considerations for doing so, the money may enable you to get even better specimens in the future.
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post #173 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 04:14 AM
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I think JVCs are a bit more popular to flip because of the excellent preorder pricing. If you sell the previous model before Cedia and then jump on the preorder price for the "updated" model, you can do it for relatively little out of pocket (at least on the entry level models). Having said that, my motivation has dropped off to play that game last year and this after seeing literally ZERO difference in 2d between my 40 and 45. It's nice having the current model, but when the real world differences are next to nothing it kind of kills the motivation to go through all the hassle of selling, preordering and waiting on the new model. I found it MUCH more exciting going from my RS1 to the RS40 where there were noticeable 2d improvements all around, not to mention getting 3d as well (as gimped as it was).


This year there will be significant improvements. JVC did not come to the table, absent a surprise showing on Thursday, of a true 4K machine to compete with the Sony 500/600. The projector market is contracting as panels get cheaper and bigger. JVC knew it had to make meaningful improvements this year to keep its sales numbers respectable and that involves selling turns to its present customer base. I would not be complacent this year. I think JVC will be showing their lineup with noticeably improved PQ this year over last year.

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post #174 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 05:42 AM
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I agree... so much easier with DLP... with the exception of 3D, my 5yr old projector is state of the art wink.gif

Because you can only say new and improved, on the same thing for so many years. biggrin.gif

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It is sad that you can say that. Would love to have seen improvements in DLP.

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post #175 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 05:52 AM
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You are not a marketer. You should say as the DLP projector machine manufacturers always say, the flamjet machine uses the latest chips from TI.

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post #176 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

This year there will be significant improvements. JVC did not come to the table, absent a surprise showing on Thursday, of a true 4K machine to compete with the Sony 500/600. The projector market is contracting as panels get cheaper and bigger. JVC knew it had to make meaningful improvements this year to keep its sales numbers respectable and that involves selling turns to its present customer base. I would not be complacent this year. I think JVC will be showing their lineup with noticeably improved PQ this year over last year.


Nothing I have read about the new models would incline me to agree with you at this point in all due respect, BUT I am curious to hear more if there is more to tell which we will know soon enough. What significant improvements do you anticipate exactly? Until they can give truly ghost/flicker free 3d (which is probably not even possible with this tech?), "improvements" there don't really interest me. Significantly reduced lag would be nice, but there has been no indication of this and hell I don't even game these days anyway so not sure why I still even care about this (unless I get a PS4). The better FI would be great, but I only use this feature for animated titles which I really don't watch many of in 2d (most my animated titles are in 3d which gets delegated to the BenQ DLP). Native contrast does not look to be improved to any significant degree........what exactly is there to be excited about from your perspective? Honestly, for me the things I would be most excited about would be some sort of native CIH projector which is not going to happen of course, doing away with lamps in favor of laser or LED which is not happening. Here is your chance........sell me on the new models since you feel there is going to be significant improvements. smile.gif

As far as the RS40, 45 and 46, the most significant improvement IMO is the new lamp in the 46 which should not have been an issue in the first place. Besides this from a 2d PQ perspective, these machines are VERY similar for real world 2d PQ from reports (I literally noticed ZERO difference between my 40 and 45 for 2d). What changes this year are going to bring significant real world noticeable changes in 2d PQ exactly?
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post #177 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 10:00 AM
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Let me guess. Nice job in changing a bulb? Or did it just blow up inside the machine?

It blew up inside the machine, from what I read it's not that dangerous, but it didn't look good. This was the 02 lamp that blew up at 1500 hours a few months back, but my 03 lamp has just dimmed but nothing happened yet.

I vacuumed the area first (they say don't do this, use playing cards, but whatever), so then I was trying to put the bulb in the trash and as I was carrying it, the tiny dust shards were spilling out the cracked lamp all over the floor, like a shiny reflective radio-active looking substance.

Probably did not hurt me, but it still looked really scary the way the dust was so shiny and tiny, felt like I should have been in a Hazmat suit.



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post #178 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 10:36 AM
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Toe. The only way to tell is to go and see for yourself and to ask questions. And you can almost walk there. How many avid forum members like you would bypass the opportunity to see for yourself when you lived very near to the Expo? Many want to attend a Cedia but its expensive if you have to fly there, get a hotel, pay for food and all the other expenses, and be away from their families for x number of days. Your costs would be nil except for maybe gas and parking.

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post #179 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 10:53 AM
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I totally agree Mark, but why am I not excited? confused.gif I think it's just that I am not looking to do any upgrades this year, so what is the point in going? Not to mention it will be here for 3 years so I can always go next year and the year after at which point I will be looking to upgrade something. I still might go though as you are making me feel guilty! tongue.gif

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post #180 of 197 Old 09-25-2013, 10:55 AM
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Because you want to stay informed and see for yourself even though you won't be buying anything this year. Plus its a good time.

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