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post #91 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you guys are such ball busters.... you, Mark, Coder especially (j/k)

I can get a lot more for the RS55 than selling the Planar, no one wants crusty 5 year old technology with average native contrast.... biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif besides I have to start paying for that VW600. 2 years with the same model is a record for me.

<-- who has been pimping DLP for 3D since 2010....



so who is going to explain how an LED projector calibrated to R709 will look different than the same projector with a UHP lamp source (750 clone vs. Planar 81xx)

I had both of them in my possession at the same time. Color performance on both out of the box was phenomenal. I'm not a calibrator so my judgement should be taken with a grain of salt, but the images out of box looked almost the same, with the Planar units being a lot brighter. And the images should look almost the same seeing how the light engine/lens and processing units are exactly the same with the exception to how the DMD is lit. The DI was smoother on the Planar and I think black level was a tad better too. If you put the LED unit into REC709 mode it should look and perform exactly the same, it's only when you switch the the DCI or native mode does the color characteristics change.
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post #92 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:28 PM
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thx for the info. you know people are going to come in here now and tell you that can't be possible since an LED driven projector in R709 is different.

if the 750 (and the clones) in R709 look anything like this, are these folks saying the meter is lying? The meter says 1 thing and our eyes are seeing another?

I've seen several members make a similar statement.

Planar_8130-7.jpg
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post #93 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

It's very difficult to test multiple projectors side by side in the same room. Plus, you would need to calibrate them all and have them outputting the same lumens on the same screen.

Not if one of the reasons a pj is being considered is for its brightness.

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post #94 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Not if one of the reasons a pj is being considered is for its brightness.

I think he's saying for strictly comparative purposes. I remember when Wolfgang ( I think it was him) tested a Sim2 Lumis Host versus an RS20 side by side and to get a real sense of how the image looked comparatively he had to almost close the manual iris fully on the lumus to match the RS20 in brightness.

But I see your point. If you have a large screen there are only so many projectors you can look at and such a comparison is almost pointless as it wouldn't be bright enough to fill your screen.
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post #95 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:47 PM
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You just add an ND filter if one PJ is too bright and if too dim don't project the entire image, and I have a couple here, but I've never had to use them to be honest.

Once you compare eco mode on one PJ to high on the lamp on the other, and the fact that these higher-end projectors have irises, in addition to changing the throw distances if you have to, in the end it's rarely an issue, just takes some fiddling.


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post #96 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thx for the info. you know people are going to come in here now and tell you that can't be possible since an LED driven projector in R709 is different.

Like I said before, I'm not a calibrator or an expert on this subject so I could be totally wrong here, but doesn't that make sense?

Like I said, I'm not a calibrator or expert on this subject and I could be completely wrong here, but doesnt that make sense?

if the 750 (and the clones) in R709 look anything like this, are these folks saying the meter is lying? The meter says 1 thing and our eyes are seeing another?

I've seen several members make a similar statement.

Planar_8130-7.jpg

That wouldnt make any sense. Why have a color space option called REC709 and not have it meet that standard? The standard is there (as long as you can calibrate properly) so the color characteristics will look the same no matter what display device you're using. If you want that special color associated with LED units the Native color space is an option you can use on these Q750i clone units.

Like I said before, I'm not a calibrator or expert on this subject so I could be completely wrong, but doesn't that make sense?
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post #97 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 08:59 PM
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Right, all 3 of us agree it's a misunderstood phenomena. The screwy thing is most of the people making the claims, are making the claim without even calibrating the picture on either projector.

Anyhow, most people will see what they want to see, if you go in believing it has some extra magic, it'll come out looking that way. That's one reason when doing projector comparisons, you gotta give up the emotion towards a device first. Just tell yourself both projectors suck, the only question is which one sucks less, takes a bit of self brain-washing. If you go in thinking, I just paid $5000 for this projector and I know it is awesome, then the BIAS factor will pollute your eyes and you'll start hallucinating extra contrast smile.gif

All that said, luminance sort of affects the appearance of saturation (to how a lot of these posters are thinking of saturation), and contrast is basically the difference in gain between two colors. So I suppose if the ANSI were different enough, then there is your more "saturated" image.


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post #98 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 09:04 PM
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BTW, this site has some good articles on this type of theory..

http://www.journalofvision.org/content/9/8/1040.abstract

In the natural world, physical laws constrain object reflectance. These constraints are learned by the visual system and affect our naturalness perception of images. The goal of this study on natural images is to discover which image statistics are used to determine color naturalness. In a series of experiments, we investigated the role of color in our perception of naturalness by asking subjects to rate the naturalness of the color saturation for different images. We found that observers could easily differentiate unnaturally over or under-saturated images from their original natural counterparts with certain accuracy.

Moreover, this ability is not based on the observers' memory of specific pictures nor is it based on high-level knowledge about object color (memory color) since observers could correctly judge natural color saturation for images they had never seen before and for objects with native colors (e.g. oranges) and non-native colors (e.g. cars). Furthermore, natural color saturation judgments differed from global saturation judgments for random-pixel images made from the original natural images indicating that image structure is important for judging natural color because color distributions vary from image to image (e.g. pictures of snow and pictures of fruit). Additionally, both luminance contrast and saturation of an image affect our judgment of color naturalness. If the luminance contrast is reduced without changing chromaticity, the image appears increasingly over-saturated unless color saturation is also reduced. Our findings suggest that critical information lies in the luminance-color relationship. Further investigation shows that as color saturation increases or luminance contrast decreases, color appearance changes from surface color mode to aperture (self-luminous) color mode, and objects unlikely to be self-luminous appear unnatural. We suspect that this mechanism also aids our natural saturation judgment.

PS:
I could have flooded this argument with whitepapers, but I didn't feel like digging them all up. I have researched all this before many times, perception that is. I didn't get all this theory from a cracker jack box, oh wait maybe I did :P


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post #99 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 09:06 PM
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It's not that the phenomon is debunked. The H-K effect is a real thing when the projector is being used in it's native color space. Colors do look more saturated and the picture appears brighter. But when you're using the Rec709 mode it should look like any other projector that meets that standard. If that wasn't possible, why include the option?
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post #100 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 09:12 PM
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I already said exactly that, See post # 37, of course I know the HK effect is real (said it three times), did you read the thread (heh)?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490791/led-projector/30#post_23746028

I already read all the stuff on perception from the "real scientists" anyhow, so to me it's peddling manure because their references are marketing vs. science.
http://www.journalofvision.org/content/9/8/1040.abstract


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post #101 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 09:16 PM
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Lol that was too many posts ago for me to remember haha
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post #102 of 112 Old 09-18-2013, 09:25 PM
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The only thing about that article is they shouldn't have said "easy to see saturation", what they meant to say was easy to see "sat-luminance" combination within its natural range, or outside its natural range. It's very hard to isolate saturation and luminance because they play off each other in how we see the image, that is unless you are viewing a single color and playing with the CMS controls. I think the problem is people use the term "saturation" to mean two different things, when things look more saturated, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are, it just means that they are "something".


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post #103 of 112 Old 09-21-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

..
Anyhow, most people will see what they want to see, if you go in believing it has some extra magic, it'll come out looking that way. That's one reason when doing projector comparisons, you gotta give up the emotion towards a device first. Just tell yourself both projectors suck, the only question is which one sucks less, takes a bit of self brain-washing. If you go in thinking, I just paid $5000 for this projector and I know it is awesome, then the BIAS factor will pollute your eyes and you'll start hallucinating extra contrast smile.gif

I do this somewhat, but only before I make a purchase, once I have made the purchase. I do the absolute opposite biggrin.gif
Basically by telling myself repeatedly "I own it, therefore it must be awesome!"
Or imagining what I would have thought of it if I was my 14 yr old past self from 1995.

Now I don't go around forums claiming my projector is better than others I could not know the specifics of, but this method does work fairly ok for keeping the proverbial upgrade ghosts locked up in the shed and thusly allowed me to enjoy my Optoma hd100x for almost 2000 hours tongue.gif
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post #104 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post

I do this somewhat, but only before I make a purchase, once I have made the purchase. I do the absolute opposite biggrin.gif
Basically by telling myself repeatedly "I own it, therefore it must be awesome!"
Or imagining what I would have thought of it if I was my 14 yr old past self from 1995.

Now I don't go around forums claiming my projector is better than others I could not know the specifics of, but this method does work fairly ok for keeping the proverbial upgrade ghosts locked up in the shed and thusly allowed me to enjoy my Optoma hd100x for almost 2000 hours tongue.gif

i think about this all the time. remember back to reading about the 100K min budget it took to get a 100" screen and get it installed. then i start to worry about how crappy what i currently have will be compared to what's around in another 10yrs, haha.

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post #105 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 04:44 PM
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Many are waiting the OPTIMA LED but as I recall didn't previous OPTIMA projectors have some reliability issues?

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post #106 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 04:49 PM
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Many are waiting the OPTIMA LED but as I recall didn't previous OPTIMA projectors have some reliability issues?

Many, IIRC.
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post #107 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 08:51 PM
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I currently own an Optoma hd81. It will be my last Optoma. Although it is 7 yrs old now, and many projectors (on any manufacture) don't seem to last even that long, it has been at best problematic. First time I shipped it back for repair was after < 6mo. ownership. Second time was 3 mo. out of warranty or so. I paid for the repair. They were not prompt at returning it. It came back the first time with a fingerprint on the lens somewhere. I can see it on the screen, but not looking at the lens. It runs for 5 min. then shuts off for no apparent reason every couple of days. I've stopped bothering to wait for the lamp to cool down. I just unplug it, plug it back in and start it up again. Sometimes I do this 2 or 3 times an evening. Worst dynamic iris ever. Used it once, turned it off.
OTOH, it really is capable of throwing a good picture. Contrast is not great, but liveable. Good lens. Crappy engineering or cheap parts or something. I don't trust them.

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post #108 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

I currently own an Optoma hd81. It will be my last Optoma. Although it is 7 yrs old now, and many projectors (on any manufacture) don't seem to last even that long, it has been at best problematic. First time I shipped it back for repair was after < 6mo. ownership. Second time was 3 mo. out of warranty or so. I paid for the repair. They were not prompt at returning it. It came back the first time with a fingerprint on the lens somewhere. I can see it on the screen, but not looking at the lens. It runs for 5 min. then shuts off for no apparent reason every couple of days. I've stopped bothering to wait for the lamp to cool down. I just unplug it, plug it back in and start it up again. Sometimes I do this 2 or 3 times an evening. Worst dynamic iris ever. Used it once, turned it off.
OTOH, it really is capable of throwing a good picture. Contrast is not great, but liveable. Good lens. Crappy engineering or cheap parts or something. I don't trust them.

I remember when the HD81 came out; it created a great deal of interest and excitement. It was on my short list for a while; I wound up getting a JVC RS1 and have never stopped feeling grateful to Providence for having dodged this bullet. The long list of painful stories, of the type you describe, seemed endless in the year or two following it appearance.
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post #109 of 112 Old 09-22-2013, 11:20 PM
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If going by purely anecdotal evidence from the forums, I think Optoma has had a history of lower build quality vs. some of the other competitors. I would say Epson and Optoma and Acer have the most problems overall. JVC's have also had their share of problems, but seem to be more reliable now. I have also seen VERY VERY few reliability issues with Viewsonic projectors oddly enough.

I think Benqs and Mitsuubishi are the most reliable, they had their problems, but when you look how active the threads were to how few posters reported issues, their seemed to be fewer. Also the last 3 years of Sony's (since the hw30 and newer) seem to be very reliable. I would say Benq/Mits/Viewsonic DLP's = fewest major breakdowns, and JVC is pretty good as well (RS40+) if you don't count lamp issues, and then the Sony's being exceptional (possibly the best, but I think DLP shows less wear over time).

I'm not sure I go by reliability though to make a purchase, more interested in the best quality image, as you can get some pretty long warranties these days.


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post #110 of 112 Old 09-23-2013, 12:57 PM
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Warranty saves money, but not hassle and lost use

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post #111 of 112 Old 09-25-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Not a bad idea. Except if I started serving Franzia my wife and friends would think i'd lost my mind, and have me locked up ( no doubt with no projector to watch ). eek.gif

Um, fill the good bottles with Franzia? eek.gif Perception is a lot.

Watched a 20/20 on vodka (definition: colorless neutral distilled spirit) a year or 2 ago, where they took 6 NY vodka "superfans", put them thru professional taste training, then filmed them sampling 6 (Smirnoff was "low end").

Not one of them could identify their own brands, and none ranked their preferred in the top 3, and few could duplicate any test. Smirnoff was always at least middle, occasionally top. They tested both straight, and carefully exactly mixed cocktails - spitting out and rinsing, not getting drunker and drunker (though that might be a good blooper reel).

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post #112 of 112 Old 09-25-2013, 03:52 PM
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spitting out and rinsing, not getting drunker and drunker

Ah... unrealistic conditions. At least with most cheap wine, even the rare bargain that tastes good, I wake up with a headache the next morning if I have more than one glass. Never been much of a vodka fan myself, but that is (to me at least) possibly the most difficult libation to discern differences in brands/price-points.

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