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post #1 of 112 Old 09-15-2013, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to buy a led projector that is good for gaming and home theater. I have looked at everything from a LG PA75u to a Panasonic PT-RZ470. Input lag time is not a spec that is ever listed.
I would like to hook up to my Ps3 and watch blue ray movies.I would also like Hd and 3d.
First person shooter games are what the kids and I play most so low lag time is a must.
Any help would be great.I have been researching for days, do not want to make a bad projector choice.
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post #2 of 112 Old 09-15-2013, 02:11 PM
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Why do you want an LED?
You can get projectors where the lamps can easily last 4000-5000 hours these days.

Benq w1070, take the $2500 you saved from NOT buying the Panasonic LED and put that towards lamps. Benq and Optoma lamps are pretty cheap, under $250 generally, that's 10 lamps. The problem with the more expensive LED projectors, is that you pay a premium to the point where you can just buy more lamps. Projectors don't last forever, so it's unlikely you'll get over 15,000 to 20,000 hours out of one projector anyways, which is about 4-6 lamps. Some of the more expensive LED's do offer an increase in contrast over the cheaper DLP's, but that's another story.

If you want an LED for other reasons (other than to save money on lamps), then it might make sense. Thus far, only the 720p LED's (not 1080p) really offer a lot of lamp savings, but they also do so at the cost of picture quality compared to their same priced 1080p competitors.


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post #3 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 07:58 AM
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Optoma is coming out with an LED projector at CEDIA - I'm curious to see it and will report back on what I find in 2 weeks.
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Why do you want an LED?
You can get projectors where the lamps can easily last 4000-5000 hours these days.

Just for the record, up until my last lamp in my Lumis, I have never gotten over 500 hours out of a lamp in any projector I've owned over the last 10 years. My first lamp in my Lumis was too dim at around 480 hours. They get too dim. 4000 - 5000 hours is a pipe dream - unless you like a very dim picture or can live with the artifacts from a very high gain screen. 1000 hours is more realistic.

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post #4 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 10:36 AM
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The Benq W1070 had about 1000 hours before I sold it. It looked just as bright as the first day. But a LED gives you a better piece of mind. Quick start up and quick shut downs. No worry about brightness changes for awhile. The cheap ones have bad picture quality. Something cheap like a Benq W1070 would give you very good picture quality
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post #5 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 11:11 AM
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Me and many others will be looking for real hands on opinions of the upcoming Optoma HD91 (with an announced life of 20 000 hours)
This is currently hinted at the 4000-5000 USD price point.

Of course this only has a listed amount of 1000 AL, what that becomes after a calibration we don't know and if this suffers from the same drops as other demonstrated albeit much much more expensive we might be looking at <500 AL for 19 000 hours....

Now of course it is possible they have made a massive improvement on the LED's early drop in light yield, or they have already factored it in, and aged the light sources before putting the unit together, which is far more likely (If it had been the former the LED light science community would have been buzzing).

I would realy realy like to believe in this one, but I honestly cant.

If the benq w1070 is descriptive of the budget you are considering for this then you are probably stil a few years ahead of the curve in terms of a use able HT LED based projector, in fact I suspect we will see $3k UHD projectors before we starte seeing $1k LED projectors that is actually 'good'.

Now a huge part of me wants to be wrong here, but no I don't really see it...

If life span was that much of a concern for me I would probably just grow a bit of sanity and get a large plasma screen unless you get frantic about image retention...

Does it sometimes feel like we have been cursed?
Or is that just me?
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post #6 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 11:46 AM
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I have high-er hopes for the Optoma than I did for the Panasonic (the 470), since the Optoma is at least in the HT line where the Pany was a business machine. That said I don't have high hopes. Or maybe I should say I don't think it will be exciting to me since my interest in LED is for getting all the benefits that you see with LEDs in the high end (DC4) machines. Though if you're just looking for a solid state light source in a <$5k machine, with average <$5k performance, I don't see any reason to think the HD91 will be any worse than say an HD8300.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #7 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 11:48 AM
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Correction - Optoma isn't going to be at Cedia. Maybe CES 2014 ?

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post #8 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 11:54 AM
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Optoma hd91 in store at the end of november in europe wink.gif
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post #9 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post

... LED's early drop in light yield...

First time I've heard of that.

Noah
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post #10 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Optoma is coming out with an LED projector at CEDIA - I'm curious to see it and will report back on what I find in 2 weeks.
Just for the record, up until my last lamp in my Lumis, I have never gotten over 500 hours out of a lamp in any projector I've owned over the last 10 years. My first lamp in my Lumis was too dim at around 480 hours. They get too dim. 4000 - 5000 hours is a pipe dream - unless you like a very dim picture or can live with the artifacts from a very high gain screen. 1000 hours is more realistic.

That is because you use a large low gain screen.

That is not true for many of us, I got 1500 hours out of an RS-45 lamp before it exploded, even a notoriously dimming JVC lamp.

I got 4000+ out of Sanyo z5 lamps in the old days. I have a Viewsonic with about 4000 hours, and a Benq approaching 3000, both on the original lamps.

The trick is to start out way brighter than you need the projector, I use ND filters and Iris's to tame the brightness, having a smaller HP screen helps.


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post #11 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

That is because you use a large low gain screen.

I don't know, I've replaced the lamp in my 8150 a couple times, right around 1000 hours each time. That's on a 110" wide scope SMX (material) screen.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #12 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Optoma is coming out with an LED projector at CEDIA - I'm curious to see it and will report back on what I find in 2 weeks.
Just for the record, up until my last lamp in my Lumis, I have never gotten over 500 hours out of a lamp in any projector I've owned over the last 10 years. My first lamp in my Lumis was too dim at around 480 hours. They get too dim. 4000 - 5000 hours is a pipe dream - unless you like a very dim picture or can live with the artifacts from a very high gain screen. 1000 hours is more realistic.

I think this is the exception not the rule.

I had about 1800hrs on my first projector. only have about 180 on its replacement so much too early to say.

I suppose if you don't shop wisely and buy a projector that's underpowered for your needs you will run into the situation of replacing bulbs prematurely due to a dim picture. if however, you shop wisely with the understanding that every bulb(and in fact the LED/laser units as well) will dim over time there's no reason why you wouldn't see thousands of hours.

at school we use data projectors, and obviously we don't have the luxury of replacing bulbs due to pq concerns, they get replaced when they burn out. anyway, those guys are lasting 5000+hrs routinely, and they maintain a bright enough image to be clearly seen in high ambient light conditions.

besides, let's be honest about where the state of current LED projectors are. if you're so picky about brightness and bulb performance that you're replacing them every 500 hrs for performance reasons(not because they burned out) then chances are there's no sub 10k led projector out there currently that will meet your extremely high demands to begin with.

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post #13 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post


If life span was that much of a concern for me I would probably just grow a bit of sanity and get a large plasma screen unless you get frantic about image retention...

Does it sometimes feel like we have been cursed?
Or is that just me?

that's been my set up for years, but I would never suggest this now. here's why.
first, retractable screens. no way around it really, if you want a tv and projector in the same space, you need a screen that rolls up. that's either significantly more money or significantly more drawbacks(wrinkles etc)
second, aethestics. let's be honest, that clean wall with a big screen on it is infinitely more pleasing to look at than a tv stand and a screen that rolls down in front of it.
last, size, I have a 64inch plasma in my room, and while nice, it's teeny tiny in a room designed for a projection system. I couldn't imagine trying to watch a plasma in a room that was built with a 140"+ screen in mind.

the solution in my mind is dual projectors. grab the best performing projector you can afford for movies or any critical viewing, and then toss in an LED/laser projector for the casual viewing you would have been using the plasma for. in a lot of ways, an led/laser projector is going to be more suited to casual use than a plasma anyway.

unless your casual use means with all the lights on and the windows open in the middle of the day. then yeah, there's still a place for a flatscreen in that scenario. but for me, I plan to ride out the x35 for a long time to come, and when I get the chance to move into a new home and build a HT for real i'll be sure to use a fixed frame screen and bargain hunt for an LED projector so I can use the room whenever I want to, and not just whenever I can justify it.

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post #14 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

First time I've heard of that.

I believe they drop pretty significantly over the first couple hundred hours(20%-30%?) and then slowly taper off for the rest of the life cycle.

this is a quote from an old review on projectorcentral talking about a viewsonic model(and references an older casio model as well)
Quote:
Lumen degradation. One of the purported perks of LED/laser projectors is that, unlike traditional arc-lamp models, their light output does not degrade over time. We have not found this to be strictly true. After running the Pro9000 for just over 120 hours, our test sample shows a loss of about 10% of its initial light output. So after 120 hours of use, the maximum light output in Theater mode became 427 lumens compared to the initial 478 lumens out of the box.

In the past we did extended burn tests of a first-generation Casio LED/laser hybrid projector and found a 25% lumen degradation over the first 200 hours of operation. We were only able to run the Pro9000 for 120 hours, but that test indicates that lumen degradation on this model is not as severe as on those early Casio models. Only time will tell how much light output may be curtailed over many thousands of hours of use.

hopefully this is either addressed and fixed soon, or the lumen output is increased enough so that 70% original brightness is still good enough

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post #15 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 05:00 PM
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IMO high gain screens degrade the image. And how many of you have a light meter, so you know how bright your picture really is? I like a bright picture. And the lamp is the least of my expense anyway. If I only get 1000 hours from a $ 500 lamp, it cost me 50 cents an hour - well worth it. At the same time, my friends who come over to watch drink at least one $ 20 / bottle of wine an hour. That makes lamps seem like chicken feed. eek.gif

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post #16 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 05:04 PM
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The best thing about LED projectors is the instant on / off feature, and not having to worry about lamp strikes. I had not seen that LED degradation though - cheaper projectors? Different LED's ??

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post #17 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 05:09 PM
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Cheap led projectors probably dim quickly. Not the high end led projectors. Plus, the image is magnificent on mines :-)
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post #18 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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For my first projector, Led just sounds more durable and worry free. Backyard movies, kids, grand kids, bbq people with too much to drink, need I say more ?
At some point I plan on a Designated Home theater projector, but for now I need a starter that can be abused to some extent.
HDMI 1.4a and input lag make me concerned about which led projector to get. If the kids don't want to play Black Ops II on it, It will be a waste of money and time.
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post #19 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 06:27 PM
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For an outside projector I wouldn't be using an LED based projector. They really arent bright enough to deal with any ambient light or even a modestly large screen under correct conditions. You'll want to stay under 100" diagonal for a decently bright image and that's in a dark treated theater room.
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post #20 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I suppose if you don't shop wisely and buy a projector that's underpowered for your needs you will run into the situation of replacing bulbs prematurely due to a dim picture.

Except "wisely" often means you have to spend 2-3X for a brighter pj.
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...first, retractable screens. no way around it really, if you want a tv and projector in the same space, you need a screen that rolls up. that's either significantly more money or significantly more drawbacks(wrinkles etc)

At least for Dalite screens, electric is far cheaper than fixed, and not that much more than manually retractable.
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second, aethestics. let's be honest, that clean wall with a big screen on it is infinitely more pleasing to look at than a tv stand and a screen that rolls down in front of it.

I don't know many people who consider a vast blank space more aesthetic than whatever else one may choose to put there, and it's easy to hide the screen with a valance.
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I believe they drop pretty significantly over the first couple hundred hours(20%-30%?) and then slowly taper off for the rest of the life cycle.

Your own quote says "...our test sample shows a loss of about 10% of its initial light output. ".

That's hardly visible; compare to a lamp which can lose half is brightness in a few hundred hours.

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post #21 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 06:43 PM
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Some people in this thread seem to be confusing projectors that only use R/G/B LED chips as source illumination with that weird combo of LEDs + laser + phosphor wheel.
If i remember correctly Casio's version consists of red LED + blue laser for those two primary colors while concurrently the blue color spectrum is split and sent to a green phosphor wheel to produce green color, while Panasonic uses red + blue LEDs + laser diode source which then hits a phosphor wheel to produce the color green.
Either way both incarnations use a wheel to produce the green primary color and i imagine that would substantially increase chances for earlier breakdown compared to the much simpler arrangement of R/G/B LED source illumination; Personally i would never consider purchasing any of these LED/laser hybrids with a wheel that rotates thousands of times per minute that will fail much sooner as well as increasing the amount of native noise.
BTW, the same spectrum of amazing LED colors available in all those top-of-the-line LED projectors is the same as available in those sub-$1.000 tiny projectors from LG and other manufacturers thanks to those Phlatlight LED chipsets from Luminus Devices; I know it from experience as i owned two of those tiny projectors and they displayed the exact same color spectrum as my Runco Q-750D.
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post #22 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

IMO high gain screens degrade the image. And how many of you have a light meter, so you know how bright your picture really is? I like a bright picture. And the lamp is the least of my expense anyway. If I only get 1000 hours from a $ 500 lamp, it cost me 50 cents an hour - well worth it. At the same time, my friends who come over to watch drink at least one $ 20 / bottle of wine an hour. That makes lamps seem like chicken feed. eek.gif

I agree the High Power 2.4 gain screen degrades the image a bit, but less so if you sit farther back, and the 2.8 gain even a bit less than the 2.4 from what I hear (never A/B'd).
I want a new screen but I really need to have at least 1.4 gain, though I might settle for 1.2 gain. I sit pretty close which is why I eventually want to replace the screen to one that is more film-like, but I am seeing if the projectors get any brighter.

I tracked more than 10 projectors with 3 different light meters over the years, including an industrial Sekonic that retailed for about $3000.
I like a bright picture and having a real world 1.7 gain helps a lot with that.


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post #23 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

Some people in this thread seem to be confusing projectors that only use R/G/B LED chips as source illumination with that weird combo of LEDs + laser + phosphor wheel.
BTW, the same spectrum of amazing LED colors available in all those top-of-the-line LED projectors is the same as available in those sub-$1.000 tiny projectors from LG and other manufacturers thanks to those Phlatlight LED chipsets from Luminus Devices; I know it from experience as i owned two of those tiny projectors and they displayed the exact same color spectrum as my Runco Q-750D.

You might know this already, but to some of those claiming that LED sources provide richer colors...

An image calibrated to the same gamut spec (rec 709) has the same hue, saturation, and luminance as any other device, with the one exception of contrast. Unless people are using a gamut that is over-saturated or has higher gain than the spec, the color should look the same. When people claim the color looks more saturated between two projectors calibrated to the same spec (errors not withstanding), then what they really mean is that one projector has higher intrascene contrast and higher ANSI, otherwise it is impossible for an image to actually have higher saturation or gain on a proper calibrated spec unless we are talking a different standard entirely.

Of course in the old days we used to notice different projectors had much better color, but the gap of accuracy on the gamuts continues to tighten between projectors. The Runco and Sony are still the leaders in OOTB accuracy, but JVC has caught up somewhat. Some of the Benq DLP's also have an amazingly accurate gamut.


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post #24 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 07:49 PM
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I have a question. How does Epson's higher color brightness come into play? Does that equate to higher saturation perceived by our eyes? If this is the case, can the image look oversaturated?
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post #25 of 112 Old 09-16-2013, 10:33 PM
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Dynamic modes in projectors cause them to become more green, yellow, and blue usually. Though some dynamic modes just boost gain and saturation way off the chart and cause a more cartoony look. I would say that the Epson's dynamic modes makes some colors look more saturated and others less so.

I'm not a physicist, but I'll do my best (apologies if I make a mistake)... This is going to sound really nerdy, and sometimes I dislike physics because there are too many If's, And's, and But's....

I had to read a refresher course real fast on a wiki, but here it goes...

Light is basically pulsating energy (like a ripple wave of energy traveling at a constant speed until it hits a different surface or medium). The intensity of the light is formed by the density of the photons (which is what causes brightness, this is basically energy particles).

So you basically have:


Photons - Energy and intensity (The energy source that creates light)
Wavelengths (the measurement of the wave of a light, the length between the peaks and valleys of the wave)
Frequency - How fast the peaks and valleys pass between each other, but this is not related to speed as much as it is related to the curvature of the wave

You can describe light as a frequency or wavelength without specifying both measurements, since the two measurements are proportional to each other.

A projector lamp is emitting certain frequencies but not all evenly (though LED's are purer white than UHP's from my understanding), as the UHP lamp ages the spectral characteristics of the frequencies it emits change due to the age. A lamp that has the best spectral balance would generally have the least amount of difference in brightness between BEST mode and BRIGHTEST mode, because it is emitting the different spectrums of each visible light somewhat evenly (each wave peak on the visible light spectrum is peaking at about the same height on all the spectral colors). The closer the lamp is to spectral purity, the closer it's natural emitted color is to pure white, which I believe is a good thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_color

It can be difficult to understand light in the terms of frequencies, so the best way to think about it is by comparing it to sound. Hence, think of pure white light as the entire rock band playing at the same time (hence all the frequencies, low freq drums, higher guitars, etc...). To disperse or separate a frequency of color from the white light, we'd have to get any one of the musicians playing solo without any other instruments in the background. For light this is done by isolating the spectrum by using either an additive or subtractive method or dispersion.

A spectral color is a color that can be defined INDIVIDUALLY by a single frequency derived from white light (hence a guitar player is a spectral form of light because it is a unique instrument). A guitar player + drums is not a spectral form of light, because it is a combination of frequencies. Black and white are not colors and not spectral, white is the entire band and black is the absence of photons or the absence of light entirely.

There are only so many spectral formations of light (actual frequencies) that translate to visible light in how we can decipher them. We can create spectral colors with non-spectral mixes and our eyes cannot usually tell the difference.

What this theory tells me is that at some point there are diminishing returns to enhancing spectral fluidity of the color waves, because contrast would have a much greater affect to how we perceive color once we get the spectral variations isolated to the point of close enough.



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post #26 of 112 Old 09-17-2013, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

An image calibrated to the same gamut spec (rec 709) has the same hue, saturation, and luminance as any other device, with the one exception of contrast. Unless people are using a gamut that is over-saturated or has higher gain than the spec, the color should look the same. When people claim the color looks more saturated between two projectors calibrated to the same spec (errors not withstanding), then what they really mean is that one projector has higher intrascene contrast and higher ANSI, otherwise it is impossible for an image to actually have higher saturation or gain on a proper calibrated spec unless we are talking a different standard entirely.

I've wondered about this, see with the LED machines, the LEDs, the actual Red, Green, and Blue light emitted from the machine is always very saturated and very pure (which tends to look brighter per the H-K effect). This saturation/purity is fixed regardless of how you calibrate the gamut. If you calibrate the gamut what you really do is add the other two primaries to "subdue" the 3rds saturation in total, but you haven't actually changed the color(s) of light leaving the machine. So what I've wondered is if we still perceive this as more "saturated" more "solid" despite measuring less so and "appearing" less so since what we actually see is still 3 very saturated, very pure colors.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #27 of 112 Old 09-17-2013, 05:09 AM
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It's nonsense, the origination of the spectral purity of a color does not visibly affect the end-result beyond what we can measure other than the non-measureable portions of intrascene contrast in the image. We aren't seeing the color in its pure form no matter how the light source emits it, we are seeing an end result. Of course the exclusion being other side effects to how we see color (like RBE or other anomalies).

I don't think the colors in nature are all that much better looking than what our video devices are already producing other than the contrast and natural glossiness we see in nature, you can only go so far with color, you can only improve it so much. I'm not saying the new Rec 2020 specs wider gamut won't offer some improvement for various reasons, but I don't think it will fix the root of the problem which is simulating the intra-spatial contrast of colors that exist in real life.

A 3D projector that could equal the "intra-spacial 3D" contrast in nature with the current Rec 709 gamut, would blow away the appearance of a Rec 2020 / BT.2020 projector in 2D illuminating reflections non-spatially. Of course such a 3D projector does not exist. Even a 2D projector with the highest intrascene in the smallest area should beat it, because the purity of the colors is not the main problem anymore. Sure I don't doubt you'll get a small boost in color in some cases, but the contrast limitations and specifically intra-spacial contrast is the real limitations of our devices. Of course there are technical manufacturing reasons in the color tables and CMS systems that will probably improve in Rec 2020 on our devices from the natural improvement of the calibration capabilities of newer devices (and some will immediately proclaim this as a BT.2020 improvement), which in some cases it will simply be an improvement forced upon the manufacturers since they are now required to produce a wider gamut.

The main thing we are missing on our video devices is the natural glossiness and shine that objects in real life give.

Hence a shiny Coca Cola can is not reproduced as shiny looking on our screens, but enhancing the purity of the colors isn't going to fix that, what we need is the ability to display intense bands of intrascene contrast in a very small space.

Our current 3D also doesn't solve this because in 3D we lose some spatial geometric accuracy to objects as well as intra-spatial contrast. The shiny nature of REAL objects is caused by complex illuminance variations in small areas and the complex reflections across the spatial surface geometry in three dimensions.

Although this question is probably better answered by an optical physicist, I personally highly doubt the purity of the light source affects the end result when calibrated to the same spec.


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post #28 of 112 Old 09-17-2013, 09:18 AM
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@coderguy...

admittedly, my understanding of the H-K effect is at the Wikipedia level (i.e. not much), but isn't the perceived brightness increase from the H-K effect derived from the increased saturation being perceived as increased luminance? Seems to me that a color space that takes advantage of that effect would come closer to getting that perceived contrast you desire (i.e., not measured, but in a perceived, 'end result' kind of way). no?

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #29 of 112 Old 09-17-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

that's been my set up for years, but I would never suggest this now. here's why.
first, retractable screens. no way around it really, if you want a tv and projector in the same space, you need a screen that rolls up. that's either significantly more money or significantly more drawbacks(wrinkles etc)
second, aethestics. let's be honest, that clean wall with a big screen on it is infinitely more pleasing to look at than a tv stand and a screen that rolls down in front of it.
last, size, I have a 64inch plasma in my room, and while nice, it's teeny tiny in a room designed for a projection system. I couldn't imagine trying to watch a plasma in a room that was built with a 140"+ screen in mind.

the solution in my mind is dual projectors. grab the best performing projector you can afford for movies or any critical viewing, and then toss in an LED/laser projector for the casual viewing you would have been using the plasma for. in a lot of ways, an led/laser projector is going to be more suited to casual use than a plasma anyway.

unless your casual use means with all the lights on and the windows open in the middle of the day. then yeah, there's still a place for a flatscreen in that scenario. but for me, I plan to ride out the x35 for a long time to come, and when I get the chance to move into a new home and build a HT for real i'll be sure to use a fixed frame screen and bargain hunt for an LED projector so I can use the room whenever I want to, and not just whenever I can justify it.

I agree completely.
Since I cant afford the space I have a screen that comes down in front of a small 50" tv that I use for average tv usage ps3, tv, netflix etc. Especially SD netflix content is unfit for a large screen.
Now if we are about to finally see LED projectors that can perform on line with other cheap projectors like the Benq 1070 even if they cost $3k-$4k I would get one and maybe a daylight hi-gain screen.
Until then I'l compromise, but my room can barely fit a 90" screen to begin with, so a 50" plasma isn't that out of place.
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post #30 of 112 Old 09-17-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dougri View Post

@coderguy...

admittedly, my understanding of the H-K effect is at the Wikipedia level (i.e. not much), but isn't the perceived brightness increase from the H-K effect derived from the increased saturation being perceived as increased luminance? Seems to me that a color space that takes advantage of that effect would come closer to getting that perceived contrast you desire (i.e., not measured, but in a perceived, 'end result' kind of way). no?
Found this article very interesting dougri about the emasculated rec709 we now have and what was envisioned for ntsc wink.gif Cant wait for the hc91 to hit a test bench and see how the h-k effect influences things smile.gif
Quote:
When the NTSC standards were developed, the designers envisioned a wide gamut system where the primaries are much more saturated/pure than what we have now. The more saturated primaries allow a greater range of highly saturated colors to be reproduced. It is theoretically ideal to make the primaries as saturated/pure as possible so that the widest range of colors can be reproduced.
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/hd-versus-sd-color-space/hd-versus-sd-color-space.htm
How accurate these vvv quoted led advantages are from digital projection's viewpoint I spose I should take with a grain of salt after reading what coderguy said.
Quote:
Better!Color
• Wider#Color#Gamut#than#Lamp#Based#Projectors • Up#to#140%#of#the#NTSC#Color#Gamut
• Better#InterTChannel#Color#Matching • No#Color#Drift
• Deeper,#More#Saturated#Colors • Deep#Saturation#Makes#Image#Appear#Approximately#25%#Brighter#than#its#Brightness#Spec
This bit equates with the smooth curve of brightness degradation Ive read elsewhere iirc .
Quote:
Brightness!Stability
• Less#than#3%#brightness#drop#over#1500#hours#versus#50%#brightness#drop#for#a#1500#hour#lamp
• Brightness#drift#is#negligible#between#channels

http://www.digitalprojection.com/news/literature/LED_versus_UHP_1110.pdf
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