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post #31 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

A fixed frame screen is a tensioned screen. US Da-Lite will not make it.

Yes they will. Check out their own info. This is a listing of a fixed frame screen and which materials you can choose- including high power. However, if you want it curved you need to make a custom order.
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post #32 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Yes they will. Check out their own info. This is a listing of a fixed frame screen and which materials you can choose- including high power. However, if you want it curved you need to make a custom order.

I talked to Da-Lite yesterday about this. Sales thought no problem. Engineering said no.

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post #33 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thanks Mike. I couldn't remember torus. I edited my post.

So let's sum it up. If you add a horizontal stretch anamorphic and do a vertical scaling stretch on wide screen material, you get about 25% extra brightness to light up your screen. This will increase the brightness to your eyes about 6%.. That's about the total positive.

The negatives some of which can be ameliorated by ideal set up and a curved screen but not eliminated are:

A 5% loss in ANSI contrast
The negatives effect of scaling vertically with a non simple scale ratio
An almost complete loss of depth of field with consequent effects on screen focus as one moves away from screen center
Geometric pin cushioning.

Standard screen radiuses are not curved enough for most throws.
Pin cushioning will be ameliorated with a curve screen but to hide all pin cushioning the image will have to be over scanned eliminating part of that precious extra light the anamorphic gives you.

Spherical or rather circular anamorphics perform best when the entry image is small and this optimized requires set up at long throw.

If you starts with a projector that does not have a really good lens, the deterioration caused by the anamorphic glass is I suppose tolerable. With a great projector lens, an anamorphic will throw away some of the lens performance you are paying for.

To minimize this, one should use an expensive ISCO anamorphic and use optimum set up (long throw) and a curved screen although the ideal curved screen with need a custom curvature rather than one of the two off the shelf available.

I am sure I am missing other things.

If you decide to use an anamorphic for whatever reason, If you are starting with a 4K projector, you need a really expensive anamorphic rated at 4K and horizontally stretching at 1.25 instead of 1.33. Regardless of display resolution, one should use a curved screen and use as long as throw as one has available and the projector permits. If brightness is a problem employ screen gain in moderation (I would not exceed 1.3) and as necessary reduce screen size.

Please feel free to modify this list and correct any errors I may have stated.

In my day I have sold many anamorphics and have installed many. Most have been ISCO's and all have been at close to longest throw with and with out a curved screen. The results have been good but with compromised set up, I don't know.

Darinp in another thread posted about a measured increased in ANSI at shorter throw, so I am not 100% sure on that one. Also I guess we need to talk about what is long and short throw. For the 63" high image the HW50 has a range of 12'-10" to 19'-7". We are talking 16'-4" here. That is the max throw distance the guy has available and it is toward the long side of the range. The projector talked about is 1080P not 4K. His total budget is 10K, so that rules out all 4K machines. With the size screen the customer wants:

A. He needs the light output gained from the lens.
B. Zoom method does not work, can't zoom large enough to fill the screen.

Even with the A-lens, I am recommending a smaller screen than the customer wants.

Positives over zooming.
Brighter image. Customer needs the added brightness.
Higher pixel density.
No black bars to deal with.
Faster change over going from 16:9 to 2.35.
Can get larger image.

Last but not least, zoom method physically will not work for the size image the customer wants with the max throw available.

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post #34 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 06:41 AM
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We have both known the answer to this for years. If you go to Da-lite site and look under the specifications for the various curved screen you will see the omission of HP from the available product list. The product description for top of the curve/mask multi format omits HP also. The screen fabric can not be tensioned and most curved frames use lace and grommets and obviously exert tension at those points.

Screen sales people are often not even inclusively knowledgeable the products they sell. Even the best companies. Polarization extinction ratios, through ratios changing for different sizes of the same material based on coating and substrate differences, I could go on and on. Now why doesn't the average sales person at Da-lite know what we know?.. Because it has come up to us before and it is unlikely that the salesperson was ever asked this question. Though frankly, if asked in the past, some at Da-lite might not even remember.. More and more I forget things. A salespersons job is to sell. Say yes whenever they can. They get used to it. If one is young and single, looking for action, date a young beautiful sales woman. They really like to say Yes.
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post #35 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Darinp in another thread posted about a measured increased in ANSI at shorter throw, so I am not 100% sure on that one. Also I guess we need to talk about what is long and short throw. For the 63" high image the HW50 has a range of 12'-10" to 19'-7". We are talking 16'-4" here. That is the max throw distance the guy has available and it is toward the long side of the range. The projector talked about is 1080P not 4K. His total budget is 10K, so that rules out all 4K machines. With the size screen the customer wants:

A. He needs the light output gained from the lens.
B. Zoom method does not work, can't zoom large enough to fill the screen.

Even with the A-lens, I am recommending a smaller screen than the customer wants.

Now it starts to make more sense. You are talking a mid throw set up, not short or long throw. Short throw means close to the shortest throw possible. Long throw means close to the longest throw possible with the projector. You are a little longer than mid throw. and you basically have to use an A lens because of throw distance limitations which prevent zooming.

Given all this, I would use the tightest radius possible and calculate for your exact throw. da-lite s good here and can accommodate bend requests. Get bent with Da-lite. If you have to sacrifice something, sacrifice brightness and cut the screen size down as necessary.

The Sony is a good projector buit does not have the world's sharpest lens. Its sharp enough except if you watch from a distance of 6 inches. So using an anamorphic won't throw away high lens performance. I think the system you are pproposing represents appropriate system compromises. I don't know what screen material and gain you guys are considering. Me. I would like the JKP 1.1 but that might not be bright enough without me knowing anything else I think it safe to go up to a 1.3 gain. Curving with higher gains tends to have some problems. If you measure brightness from one seated location looking at various parts of the screen, results will vary. You are better off not doing this and just watching and a good compromise is a gain or 1.0 or 1.1 and limiting screen size.

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post #36 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now it starts to make more sense. You are talking a mid throw set up, not short or long throw. Short throw means close to the shortest throw possible. Long throw means close to the longest throw possible with the projector. You are a little longer than mid throw. and you basically have to use an A lens because of throw distance limitations which prevent zooming.

Given all this, I would use the tightest radius possible and calculate for your exact throw. da-lite s good here and can accommodate bend requests. Get bent with Da-lite. If you have to sacrifice something, sacrifice brightness and cut the screen size down as necessary.

The Sony is a good projector buit does not have the world's sharpest lens. Its sharp enough except if you watch from a distance of 6 inches. So using an anamorphic won't throw away high lens performance. I think the system you are pproposing represents appropriate system compromises. I don't know what screen material and gain you guys are considering. Me. I would like the JKP 1.1 but that might not be bright enough without me knowing anything else I think it safe to go up to a 1.3 gain. Curving with higher gains tends to have some problems. If you measure brightness from one seated location looking at various parts of the screen, results will vary. You are better off not doing this and just watching and a good compromise is a gain or 1.0 or 1.1 and limiting screen size.

The confusion came from the throw distance. I was talking about the throw distance being short with lens and you were talking about short throw without lens. I agree with you, you can't use a lens if the projector is already at short throw shooting the 16:9 image that is needed. The A-lens throw ratio is 1.75. Once you go below 2.0, you need a curved screen or you will have too much pincushion.

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post #37 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 01:09 PM
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What is the min throw ratio of the new Sony VW600ES?

One of the things that I like most about the 1000ES is its min throw ratio of ~ 1.27, the shortest of any pj I'm aware. It fits my room perfectly: with it at the very back of the room (without having to put it inside a closet, requiring ventilation, etc.), zoomed out to the max tit gives a 144" wide pic for 2.35, which is the widest pic that will fit in the room. (And it is of course no problem when zooming in to 136"W for HDTV pics.) I am truly addicted to the 'big pic', sitting ~ 10.5 to 11 ft from the screen. With the ~1.4 min throw of a JVC, e.g., I would have to put the pj back inside the closet or go with a smaller screen (heaven forbid!).
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post #38 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

What is the min throw ratio of the new Sony VW600ES?

One of the things that I like most about the 1000ES is its min throw ratio of ~ 1.27, the shortest of any pj I'm aware. It fits my room perfectly: with it at the very back of the room (without having to put it inside a closet, requiring ventilation, etc.), zoomed out to the max tit gives a 144" wide pic for 2.35, which is the widest pic that will fit in the room. (And it is of course no problem when zooming in to 136"W for HDTV pics.) I am truly addicted to the 'big pic', sitting ~ 10.5 to 11 ft from the screen. With the ~1.4 min throw of a JVC, e.g., I would have to put the pj back inside the closet or go with a smaller screen (heaven forbid!).

The presentation that Kraine recorded listed 1.38 for the VW500ES.

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post #39 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 01:32 PM
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Now the important info. My cast is off and I have a walking boot. Bones are healing and I should be close to good as new in a little over 2 months.

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post #40 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 01:48 PM
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Now the important info. My cast is off and I have a walking boot. Bones are healing and I should be close to good as new in a little over 2 months.

Great news, Mark!
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post #41 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 02:17 PM
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thanks. Now with the boot I could have gone to Cedia. Too late now considering how high the airfare would be yada yada and I still can't drive. Next year. Have a great time there.

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now the important info. My cast is off and I have a walking boot. Bones are healing and I should be close to good as new in a little over 2 months.

Great news!
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post #43 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Now the important info. My cast is off and I have a walking boot. Bones are healing and I should be close to good as new in a little over 2 months.

Good news, now stay off ladders. smile.gif

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post #44 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

thanks. Now with the boot I could have gone to Cedia. Too late now considering how high the airfare would be yada yada and I still can't drive. Next year. Have a great time there.

Won't be the same without you!
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post #45 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The presentation that Kraine recorded listed 1.38 for the VW500ES.

So, about the same as the JVC's. Further evidence (though not needed) that the lens of the 1000ES and 600(or is it 500?)ES are indeed quite different.

When it ultimately comes time for me to move out of my much-to-large-for-me house, and move into a condo, I will undoubtedly have to go to a smaller screen (and sit closer) and can then switch to one of Mark H's recommended ~1.0 gain quality screens.
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post #46 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

So, about the same as the JVC's. Further evidence (though not needed) that the lens of the 1000ES and 600(or is it 500?)ES are indeed quite different.

When it ultimately comes time for me to move out of my much-to-large-for-me house, and move into a condo, I will undoubtedly have to go to a smaller screen (and sit closer) and can then switch to one of Mark H's recommended ~1.0 gain quality screens.

Mark actually was right about the non 1.0-1.1 gain screens. Well, you could not be wrong about everything smile.gif
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post #47 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:03 PM
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Mark actually was right about the non 1.0-1.1 gain screens. Well, you could not be wrong about everything smile.gif

I don't doubt Mark's evaluation of screens, but for my size screen, even with the brightness of the 1000ES, I need the Dalite HP. Also, my configuration is ideal for this screen (pj on a stand projecting just over my head, and with me usually the only viewer), and I find it superb. (I've seen Mark's 1000ES and screen at his house, and it is also excellent.)
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post #48 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:28 PM
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Now seems like a good time to ask this. I plan on getting either a Sony VW600 or a JVC RS57 this fall as I currently have a JVC RS40. I currently have 2 screens, a cheap fixed frame Focupix 1.2 gain 2.35 40" x 95" 103" diaganol and in front of that I have a manual pull down Da-lite 2.4 1.78 HP 52" x 92". I have mainly used the HP screen for HD sports with a DLP projector and the 2.35 1.2 gain with the JVC for movies. Lately I have started to use the HP screen with the JVC and I like the added brightness and the black levels have only raised slightly.

So, I planned on buying either a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 2.4 HP or a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 1.3 Joe Kane HD Pro screen. Will the HP screen adequately resolve the detail in a 4k projector or is the JKP 1.3 much better at doing this? Since I like the added brightness should I stick with the HP or should I get the JKP 1.3? I have got a sample of the JKP 1.1 material and it's hard for me to see a difference with samples. I do have a cabinet mount for projector to take advantage of HP gain but besides raising black level slightly are there really any other negatives with the HP material? I'm sure when lamp is new projector would be ample bright with 1.3 gain but later on I may want 2.4 gain. Any thoughts?

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post #49 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Now seems like a good time to ask this. I plan on getting either a Sony VW600 or a JVC RS57 this fall as I currently have a JVC RS40. I currently have 2 screens, a cheap fixed frame Focupix 1.2 gain 2.35 40" x 95" 103" diaganol and in front of that I have a manual pull down Da-lite 2.4 1.78 HP 52" x 92". I have mainly used the HP screen for HD sports with a DLP projector and the 2.35 1.2 gain with the JVC for movies. Lately I have started to use the HP screen with the JVC and I like the added brightness and the black levels have only raised slightly.

So, I planned on buying either a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 2.4 HP or a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 1.3 Joe Kane HD Pro screen. Will the HP screen adequately resolve the detail in a 4k projector or is the JKP 1.3 much better at doing this? Since I like the added brightness should I stick with the HP or should I get the JKP 1.3? I have got a sample of the JKP 1.1 material and it's hard for me to see a difference with samples. I do have a cabinet mount for projector to take advantage of HP gain but besides raising black level slightly are there really any other negatives with the HP material? I'm sure when lamp is new projector would be ample bright with 1.3 gain but later on I may want 2.4 gain. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Mike

It really depends on the room. If its all black, the screen will disappear anyways if you have velvet on the screen wall. The HP screen is a good screen but I changed my mind on them after seeing a CRT fading to black. I knew I would never get that with a HP screen. I loved the contrast of the JVC but my blacks always seemed grey to me with the HP screen. The blacks on my LED looks really good with my 1.0 gain screen
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post #50 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

It really depends on the room. If its all black, the screen will disappear anyways if you have velvet on the screen wall. The HP screen is a good screen but I changed my mind on them after seeing a CRT fading to black. I knew I would never get that with a HP screen. I loved the contrast of the JVC but my blacks always seemed grey to me with the HP screen. The blacks on my LED looks really good with my 1.0 gain screen

With the dynamic iris of the Sony 1000, one certainly gets fade to black on a HP screen (in a blacked out HT).
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post #51 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

It really depends on the room. If its all black, the screen will disappear anyways if you have velvet on the screen wall. The HP screen is a good screen but I changed my mind on them after seeing a CRT fading to black. I knew I would never get that with a HP screen. I loved the contrast of the JVC but my blacks always seemed grey to me

Yeah, the walls and ceiling have black velvet on them. I do like my blacks and don't want to lighten them any. My RS40 has just over 1000 hours and I feel it now needs the HP to look good though. I even tried opening iris all the way and turning lamp to high but that didn't make up the difference as projecting on the HP screen did on low lamp. It's almost like since there isn't a perfect projector for everything there also isn't a perfect screen for everything.

Thanks,
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post #52 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

With the dynamic iris of the Sony 1000, one certainly gets fade to black on a HP screen (in a blacked out HT).

I know you saw Mark's Snomatt 1.0 gain screen, and just in a resolving detail comparison, do you think the HP material does just as good as a job as the Snomatt material?

Thanks,
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post #53 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 08:00 PM
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It won't be close. While the HP material is semi-smooth the glass beads give the image a grainy appearance. The Sno-matte material is one of the smoothest clean surfaces I've seen. The Da-Lite JKP 1.1 material was very similar.
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post #54 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Now seems like a good time to ask this. I plan on getting either a Sony VW600 or a JVC RS57 this fall as I currently have a JVC RS40. I currently have 2 screens, a cheap fixed frame Focupix 1.2 gain 2.35 40" x 95" 103" diaganol and in front of that I have a manual pull down Da-lite 2.4 1.78 HP 52" x 92". I have mainly used the HP screen for HD sports with a DLP projector and the 2.35 1.2 gain with the JVC for movies. Lately I have started to use the HP screen with the JVC and I like the added brightness and the black levels have only raised slightly.

So, I planned on buying either a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 2.4 HP or a 2.35 45" x 106" 115" 1.3 Joe Kane HD Pro screen. Will the HP screen adequately resolve the detail in a 4k projector or is the JKP 1.3 much better at doing this? Since I like the added brightness should I stick with the HP or should I get the JKP 1.3? I have got a sample of the JKP 1.1 material and it's hard for me to see a difference with samples. I do have a cabinet mount for projector to take advantage of HP gain but besides raising black level slightly are there really any other negatives with the HP material? I'm sure when lamp is new projector would be ample bright with 1.3 gain but later on I may want 2.4 gain. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Mike

It seems that there has been almost infinite discussion about the performance of the HP screen, pro and con. I love it; had the original 2.8 gain version with a JVC RS20 (110x61 size), and now for 2 yrs a larger screen (the newer 2.4 version) with a Sony1000ES. It's simply like having a brighter projector (with the same CR). For best results, though, you do need to be able to mount the projector optimally, as has been thoroughly discussed so I won't go over this again.

I have seen Mark Haflich's Stewart Snomatt 1.0 gain screen, which he thinks is superior for 4K projectors. It indeed looked very nice, but without seeing it side-by-side with my HP2.4 I could not testify to it being better. (This is probably just my uneducated eyes.) For me, though, it is a mute point, for I need the high gain for my 144x72 size screen.

To me, if you can locate your projector to be optimal for the retro-reflective HP screen, I don't think you can do better. (But not everybody agrees with this--surprise!)
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post #55 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

It won't be close. While the HP material is semi-smooth the glass beads give the image a grainy appearance. The Sno-matte material is one of the smoothest clean surfaces I've seen. The Da-Lite JKP 1.1 material was very similar.

Thanks that is good to know. I guess if I go with the Sony it will be a lot brighter calibrated than my RS40 with a new lamp is and if I go with the JVC it has a more stable lamp that won't dim as quick and both should have no problem lighting a 115" 1.3 gain screen while still maintaining my black level.

Thanks Guys...now Cedia hurry up and get here! smile.gif

Mike

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

It won't be close. While the HP material is semi-smooth the glass beads give the image a grainy appearance. The Sno-matte material is one of the smoothest clean surfaces I've seen. The Da-Lite JKP 1.1 material was very similar.

To me it was 'close'. The newer HP2.4 material is creamy smooth, smoother than the original 2.8 version. Maybe it's my eyes, but I certainly see no grain.

I would love to be able to see Mark H's screen side-by-side with my HP2.4 screen. From visual memory, though, I cannot say that one was better than the other. Looking now at the NFL on my 136x72 HP2.4 via the Sony1000, it's really hard to imagine anything being better. But I'm always ready to be convinced, though it's clear to me that i would have to A/B them side-by-side to tell.
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I have both a 2.8 and 2.4 and the 2.8 is the smoother material. I have comparison pictures somewhere. Almost all of Da-lite's materials these days have a lot of texture to them, I say texture, but it's really an inherent crosshatch pattern, plus the HP screens (both 2.8 and 2.4 gain) have extra texture due to the glass beads they spray on to make the screen retroreflective. The exception would be their JKP series of screens.
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post #58 of 101 Old 09-19-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

It seems that there has been almost infinite discussion about the performance of the HP screen, pro and con. I love it; had the original 2.8 gain version with a JVC RS20 (110x61 size), and now for 2 yrs a larger screen (the newer 2.4 version) with a Sony1000ES. It's simply like having a brighter projector (with the same CR). For best results, though, you do need to be able to mount the projector optimally, as has been thoroughly discussed so I won't go over this again.

I have seen Mark Haflich's Stewart Snomatt 1.0 gain screen, which he thinks is superior for 4K projectors. It indeed looked very nice, but without seeing it side-by-side with my HP2.4 I could not testify to it being better. (This is probably just my uneducated eyes.) For me, though, it is a mute point, for I need the high gain for my 144x72 size screen.

To me, if you can locate your projector to be optimal for the retro-reflective HP screen, I don't think you can do better. (But not everybody agrees with this--surprise!)

For your screen size I can definitely see the HP as the better choice. I'm thinking at 115" if I would be better off going with the JKP 1.3 gain. The brightness the HP screen delivers is amazing though, as when I started using it a few days ago with my JVC it was like I had a new projector.

I think what I am going to do is wait till I get new projector and since I have pull down HP screen here now I can at least see how image looks on it before deciding.

I thank everybody for your opinions,
Mike

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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

For your screen size I can definitely see the HP as the better choice. I'm thinking at 115" if I would be better off going with the JKP 1.3 gain. The brightness the HP screen delivers is amazing though, as when I started using it a few days ago with my JVC it was like I had a new projector.

I think what I am going to do is wait till I get new projector and since I have pull down HP screen here now I can at least see how image looks on it before deciding.

I thank everybody for your opinions,
Mike

A very sensible plan since you already have an HP screen in place. I will be interested to hear what you finally decide. (With the HP, you can dial down the iris of the JVC--as I did with my RS20--and then gradually dial it up as the lamp dims. This should allow you to at least get 2000 hrs from a lamp.)

Yes, brightness is addictive, the 'giant plasma' effect, which I'm also hooked on. With the high CR of a JVC or Sony (and its dynamic iris) it makes for an incredibly striking pic.
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

A very sensible plan since you already have an HP screen in place. I will be interested to hear what you finally decide. (With the HP, you can dial down the iris of the JVC--as I did with my RS20--and then gradually dial it up as the lamp dims. This should allow you to at least get 2000 hrs from a lamp.)

Yes, brightness is addictive, the 'giant plasma' effect, which I'm also hooked on. With the high CR of a JVC or Sony (and its dynamic iris) it makes for an incredibly striking pic.

I bet once I watch whichever new projector on the HP screen I might be hooked. I, like you, do like that giant plasma effect as well. I guess from you watching your VW1000 on a HP screen it is especially striking. I was worried the 2.4 HP material wouldn't show 4k as well as smooth material but from your experience that is not the case, huh? I do know with 1080p recently on the HP the picture seems sharper and more detailed. I don't know if that is just because the picture is brighter and that makes detail more easily seen or what.

Mike

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