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post #91 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Also, thanks for all the reports guys!

It's good to know that the 600es is the projector of the show. Also, one of those 600es slides clearly says HDMI 2.0 for the Sony. So that should put all debate to rest? wink.gif

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post #92 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Why not buy a better projector and keep it a little longer? Nothing says you have to flip them every 1 - 2 years. Seems like 3 - 4 years is required to really make a difference projector wise. I have forum members calling me to finally upgrade - from their RS1's !
Because things keep changing too quickly, and in a year's time I will probably be missing out on one or more of the latest and greatest features. If I buy a 4k machine today, for example, it will not have an HDMI 2.0 connector on it, will it? And neither does my Marantz pre/pro, my Darbeevision, my Lumagen, etc., so why would I want to buy a 4k machine now? IMHO, a 4k machine at this particular point in time, is a total waste of money. And no, you will not convince me that upconverting 2k material to 4k will be worth the investment - you can't get blood (or resolution) out of a stone - been there, done that with earlier upconversions, like from 480p to 1080p. People swore that it was so much better...it wasn't.

So if I don't buy a 4k machine equipped with HDMI 1.4, then what else will I buy? Maybe the $80k DPI? Not gonna happen. Does DPI make a machine that can compete price wise in the under $4k disposable projector category? If they do, then I would be glad to consider buying one, as I am a big fan of DLP and prefer the PQ it delivers over either of the other 2 technologies - LCD and LCOS.

I currently own an Epson 5010 - If you know my history here, you know that I have owned about a dozen other projectors in the last 10 years, some of them quite expensive, and of all the projectors I have owned, the Epson has remained in my theater the longest - almost 2 years! If I threw it in the trash tomorrow it would have cost me less to own and use than any other projector I have owned and at the same time it has delivered the best combination of attributes that please me - nice pop (but not as good as DLP), very good 3D (but again not as good as DLP), "good enough" black level (though not as good as JVC, but better than DLP), and very bright picture for my 11 foot wide screen (better than both JVC and DLP - and Sony), and by a huge margin the best customer service I have ever encountered.

So, Craig, what would you recommend? smile.gif

P.S. - I owned an RS1 - it was in the bottom half of my ratings of all the machines I have owned, just above Sanyo and way above Panasonic...wink.gif
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post #93 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I find my HW50 plenty bright for my 110" 1.3 Carada BW. Will the 600es be too bright for such a small screen? wink.gif

How much calibrated lumens does the 600es produce vs. the 50es?

Thinking maybe 3D will be bright enough since I've only got a tiny 110" screen. It's crazy that they were showing on a 179" screen and it was still plenty bright eek.gif I wish I had a bigger wall mad.gif

I'm sure the Sony Server will be available in Canada early next year. They gotta sort out the content situation with the CRTC and hopefully all will be good. Just need a few crappy Canadian shows and movies to make them happy or...... I just need one of you kind folks to let me use your address for billing purposes and I can spoof the IP myself.

Is AVS gonna carry the Sony server? How much?

The vw600 apparently let's you close the iris down even when using the dynamic iris. I have a vw95 b stock and a 133" hi power screen and find 2d is almost TOO bright in high lamp mode. I keep it in low mode.

But if I can turn on the dynamic iris and adjust the overall brightness and black level, that should be perfect for most screens, imo
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post #94 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Because things keep changing too quickly, and in a year's time I will probably be missing out on one or more of the latest and greatest features. If I buy a 4k machine today, for example, it will not have an HDMI 2.0 connector on it, will it? And neither does my Marantz pre/pro, my Darbeevision, my Lumagen, etc., so why would I want to buy a 4k machine now?

The Sony 600es/1100es both have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 so no reason to worry for years to come. I have both a Lumagen and a Darbee and if I get the Sony I will still use them for everything except the Sony server which I will just plug into projector's other HDMI input.

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post #95 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Get HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. Yada Yada. All nice but nothing that will significantly take it to another level.
No, it won't "take it to another level", but what will happen with everything else in the audio/video chain? Eventually HDMI 2.0 will be needed throughout the chain, and when that happens, then we will need HDMI 2.0 on everything, including the projector. Are the manufacturers saying that they will be offering HDMI 2.0 upgrades on projectors that are bought now? I know that there are so called "workarounds" for the HDMI problem...once again, been there, done that when HDMI 1.3 went to 1.4 for 3D processing. I don't want to go down that road again.
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post #96 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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The Sony 600es/1100es both have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 so no reason to worry for years to come.
They do? I thought the HDMI 2.0 spec was not even completed, much less installed on machines. I must be reading old news.

Are 4k Blu-ray players and material also available? wink.gif
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post #97 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:34 PM
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Well I agree with the show review but I must have missed something regarding JVC. I was not impressed by the show floor demo. Perhaps the showing at the Embassy Suites was better. Sony was outstanding. DPI was great as always. The 3 chip LED was great too but hey $80K all day in anything will get you top shelf. But what stole my heart was the $3500 epson. These watch makers can do it on the cheap.

I saw both. You would have liked the JVC Pro demo better. One thing you would have been able to see at the Pro demo would have been a JVC 67 playing 4K content using the Red player. Looked jaw dropping good. JVC consumer side only showed the Red player for private viewing. I saw it Saturday afternoon.

Nice report Craig, since we went around together and discussed much of the above, I do not have a whole lot to add. Craig and I went to see the Sony, JVC's and the DPI's four and five times. Usually you are so awe struck the first time that, you need to come back a few times so that you can start looking specifically for flaws. smile.gif We also tried to hit all of the sound rooms. Sorry Craig, we missed JBL's Pro room. Marc told me where that one was and I hit that one Saturday afternoon.

The Amazing Spiderman clip shown on the VW600ES was a 1080P clip that was unconverted. Looked great.
Regarding the dynamic iris on the JVC's. Craig and I made a specific trip back to JVC Pro to listen for the iris. As Craig reported above, neither of us could hear the iris, but something that should be pointed out. In these demo booths, no audio was being played, so if we could not hear the iris under these conditions, then you certainly will not hear it in your theater room with audio on low. Also as a JVC owner, I would like to report how quiet the new JVC's were. JVC was running them on high lamp and the projectors were very quiet. I think they were quieter than my current RS45.

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post #98 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Because things keep changing too quickly, and in a year's time I will probably be missing out on one or more of the latest and greatest features. If I buy a 4k machine today, for example, it will not have an HDMI 2.0 connector on it, will it? And neither does my Marantz pre/pro, my Darbeevision, my Lumagen, etc., so why would I want to buy a 4k machine now? IMHO, a 4k machine at this particular point in time, is a total waste of money. And no, you will not convince me that upconverting 2k material to 4k will be worth the investment - you can't get blood (or resolution) out of a stone - been there, done that with earlier upconversions, like from 480p to 1080p. People swore that it was so much better...it wasn't.

So if I don't buy a 4k machine equipped with HDMI 1.4, then what else will I buy? Maybe the $80k DPI? Not gonna happen. Does DPI make a machine that can compete price wise in the under $4k disposable projector category? If they do, then I would be glad to consider buying one, as I am a big fan of DLP and prefer the PQ it delivers over either of the other 2 technologies - LCD and LCOS.

I currently own an Epson 5010 - If you know my history here, you know that I have owned about a dozen other projectors in the last 10 years, some of them quite expensive, and of all the projectors I have owned, the Epson has remained in my theater the longest - almost 2 years! If I threw it in the trash tomorrow it would have cost me less to own and use than any other projector I have owned and at the same time it has delivered the best combination of attributes that please me - nice pop (but not as good as DLP), very good 3D (but again not as good as DLP), "good enough" black level (though not as good as JVC, but better than DLP), and very bright picture for my 11 foot wide screen (better than both JVC and DLP - and Sony), and by a huge margin the best customer service I have ever encountered.

So, Craig, what would you recommend? smile.gif

P.S. - I owned an RS1 - it was in the bottom half of my ratings of all the machines I have owned, just above Sanyo and way above Panasonic...wink.gif

And Sony is taking care of those that purchased a 4K projector from them for peanuts after you factor out the bulb and server etc.

You saw my above post. And you have to see how well the 1000ES presents 480i DVDs and 1080p Blurays . Those extra 6 millions artificially created pixels really improve PQ and particularly the realism of the presented picture. Things will only get better with good 4K sources. I doubt any 1000ES owners would agree that buying a 4K projector two years ago let alone now was or would be a total waste of money. And let's not kid anybody, neither your opinion or mine can appropriately be classified as being humble. smile.gif

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post #99 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

They do? I thought the HDMI 2.0 spec was not even completed, much less installed on machines. I must be reading old news.

Are 4k Blu-ray players and material also available? wink.gif

Ha ha....no, you didn't miss that announcement. HDMI 2.0 just got completed earlier this month and the new 4k projectors from Sony have it listed in their specs as that is what is needed for it to work with their 4k movie server. The 1000es owners can get their projectors upgraded so they will essentially be 1100es's for HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, and they get the Sony Server, tablet to control it, and a new bulb all for around $2500.

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post #100 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Because things keep changing too quickly, and in a year's time I will probably be missing out on one or more of the latest and greatest features. If I buy a 4k machine today, for example, it will not have an HDMI 2.0 connector on it, will it? And neither does my Marantz pre/pro, my Darbeevision, my Lumagen, etc., so why would I want to buy a 4k machine now? IMHO, a 4k machine at this particular point in time, is a total waste of money. And no, you will not convince me that upconverting 2k material to 4k will be worth the investment - you can't get blood (or resolution) out of a stone - been there, done that with earlier upconversions, like from 480p to 1080p. People swore that it was so much better...it wasn't.

So if I don't buy a 4k machine equipped with HDMI 1.4, then what else will I buy? Maybe the $80k DPI? Not gonna happen. Does DPI make a machine that can compete price wise in the under $4k disposable projector category? If they do, then I would be glad to consider buying one, as I am a big fan of DLP and prefer the PQ it delivers over either of the other 2 technologies - LCD and LCOS.

I currently own an Epson 5010 - If you know my history here, you know that I have owned about a dozen other projectors in the last 10 years, some of them quite expensive, and of all the projectors I have owned, the Epson has remained in my theater the longest - almost 2 years! If I threw it in the trash tomorrow it would have cost me less to own and use than any other projector I have owned and at the same time it has delivered the best combination of attributes that please me - nice pop (but not as good as DLP), very good 3D (but again not as good as DLP), "good enough" black level (though not as good as JVC, but better than DLP), and very bright picture for my 11 foot wide screen (better than both JVC and DLP - and Sony), and by a huge margin the best customer service I have ever encountered.

So, Craig, what would you recommend? smile.gif

P.S. - I owned an RS1 - it was in the bottom half of my ratings of all the machines I have owned, just above Sanyo and way above Panasonic...wink.gif

The Sony is HDMI 2.0. Also the server has two HDMI outputs. One goes to the projector to feed 4K and the second output sends audio to the AVR. If you are interested in DLP, then, I would recommend the DPI Cine 1000 LED. It was very impressive.

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post #101 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:37 PM
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Yep, Mark, have had the 1000ES for 2 yrs now (thanks for talking me into it!), and with the upgrade will be content with it for at least another couple of yrs.
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post #102 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

They do? I thought the HDMI 2.0 spec was not even completed, much less installed on machines. I must be reading old news.

Are 4k Blu-ray players and material also available? wink.gif

Right now, only if you buy the Sony and the server. smile.gif

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post #103 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:42 PM
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I saw both. You would have liked the JVC Pro demo better. One thing you would have been able to see at the Pro demo would have been a JVC 67 playing 4K content using the Red player. Looked jaw dropping good. JVC consumer side only showed the Red player for private viewing. I saw it Saturday afternoon.

Nice report Craig, since we went around together and discussed much of the above, I do not have a whole lot to add. Craig and I went to see the Sony, JVC's and the DPI's four and five times. Usually you are so awe struck the first time that, you need to come back a few times so that you can start looking specifically for flaws. smile.gif We also tried to hit all of the sound rooms. Sorry Craig, we missed JBL's Pro room. Marc told me where that one was and I hit that one Saturday afternoon.

The Amazing Spiderman clip shown on the VW600ES was a 1080P clip that was unconverted. Looked great.
Regarding the dynamic iris on the JVC's. Craig and I made a specific trip back to JVC Pro to listen for the iris. As Craig reported above, neither of us could hear the iris, but something that should be pointed out. In these demo booths, no audio was being played, so if we could not hear the iris under these conditions, then you certainly will not hear it in your theater room with audio on low. Also as a JVC owner, I would like to report how quiet the new JVC's were. JVC was running them on high lamp and the projectors were very quiet. I think they were quieter than my current RS45.

Nest time you go to a projector demo to listen to an iris, please bring a stethoscope and a digital sound pressure meter. We don't want subjective observations. This is the AV Science Forum. smile.gif

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post #104 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:43 PM
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Thanks you very much Craig and Mike for trying to find out the things we geeks need to know.

Craig, I really appreciate your noting that the new JVC's will work with the IR 3D glasses, since I just ordered a bunch of those.

Mike, the fact you couldn't hear the IRIS is very helpful, as is your mentioning the quietness of the new JVCs. It would be great to actually be able to run them in high lamp mode without too much sound!
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post #105 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:47 PM
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MG-AVS,

Maybe so on JVC. I will trust your eye.

BLEE,

I am pretty sure the new DPI 3 chip LED 3D is 80 large!

I did notice a trend most audio room demos used Runco, DPI and Projection Design if that means anything. Maybe the trade audio gear for projectors. biggrin.gif

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post #106 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:49 PM
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They do? I thought the HDMI 2.0 spec was not even completed, much less installed on machines. I must be reading old news.

Are 4k Blu-ray players and material also available? wink.gif

Bob. That's why the machine won't ship until the HDMI 2.0 chips are available. The spec has been finalized but not fully disclosed to other than HDMI forum or whatever members. Why hasn't it fully been disclosed to the press and public? Because the spec didn't go far enough and that failure will piss certain press and others off. My theory is they made the announcement, HDMI is finalized, and then in 2 months when all the details are announced. the public and press will have little interest, and criticism of the details will be considered just nerd babble from people like me.

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post #107 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:52 PM
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As usual the upgrade devil on one shoulder argues against the angel of patience on the other: "Wait another year, patience is a virtue...Get it! Life is short!...patience is a virtue...life is short....patience is a virtue...life is short...
biggrin.gif
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post #108 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The 1000es owners can get their projectors upgraded so they will essentially be 1100es's for HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, and they get the Sony Server, tablet to control it, and a new bulb all for around $2500.
So $2500 is the "peanuts" cost to upgrade, heh? smile.gif
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post #109 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 05:57 PM
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So $2500 is the "peanuts" cost to upgrade, heh? smile.gif

Considering it's only 10% of the MSRP of the actual product, yes! smile.gif

Plus you get a new lamp (probably $500+), tablet ($300), server (~$800) that makes the actual upgrade less than $1000.
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post #110 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:03 PM
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Your prices are a little off. A bulb would be $600 plus, the tablet maybe $200, and the server $699. Still comes out pretty much the same. In home installation of the new mother board for about a grand.

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post #111 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:11 PM
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So $2500 is the "peanuts" cost to upgrade, heh? smile.gif

Cheap to some
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post #112 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:14 PM
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As usual the upgrade devil on one shoulder argues against the angel of patience on the other: "Wait another year, patience is a virtue...Get it! Life is short!...patience is a virtue...life is short....patience is a virtue...life is short...
biggrin.gif

biggrin.gif Funniest post I have read in a while.

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #113 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:17 PM
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If you are interested in DLP, then, I would recommend the DPI Cine 1000 LED. It was very impressive.

Can you enlarge upon your impressions of the DPI. What size screen? How was the picture?, etc. It's a projector that I'm very interested in, since we use our theater as a TV all the time. I currently have a DPI highlite 260 which works very well, but we do use up the lamps.

David

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post #114 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:38 PM
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As usual the upgrade devil on one shoulder argues against the angel of patience on the other: "Wait another year, patience is a virtue...Get it! Life is short!...patience is a virtue...life is short....patience is a virtue...life is short...
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At 72, life is indeed getting shorter.
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post #115 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:41 PM
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Bill. Rremember the TV show "Life Begins at 80"?

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post #116 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:41 PM
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At 72, life is indeed getting shorter.

...on one hand I should be planning for a retirement home for my wife and I, but...!
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post #117 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:53 PM
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So $2500 is the "peanuts" cost to upgrade, heh? smile.gif

Considering you get the server, a new lamp and a tablet, along with in home service. You do know that Sony is losing money on this deal, just to take care of the VW1000ES customers.

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post #118 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:56 PM
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Over the last several years Sony has developed considerable expertise in the art of losing money. Fortunately, over the last year they appear to be well on the road towards turning things around.

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post #119 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 06:58 PM
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Can you enlarge upon your impressions of the DPI. What size screen? How was the picture?, etc. It's a projector that I'm very interested in, since we use our theater as a TV all the time. I currently have a DPI highlite 260 which works very well, but we do use up the lamps.

David

It was shooting onto a 165" diagonal 16:9, Stewart ST130. I liked the brightness, sharpness, the motion and the colors looked really good. I was expecting to see something like the Vango, but it was much better. I was very tempted to get this projector. Being able to turn this off and on, like a TV is another plus.

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post #120 of 215 Old 09-29-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

It was shooting onto a 165" diagonal 16:9, Stewart ST130. I liked the brightness, sharpness, the motion and the colors looked really good. I was expecting to see something like the Vango, but it was much better. I was very tempted to get this projector. Being able to turn this off and on, like a TV is another plus.

It really is a plus. Also, 1080p projectors are not going anywhere, so it something to consider for some. I would think it would be a lot more
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