Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 105 - AVS Forum
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post #3121 of 4164 Old 06-11-2014, 12:41 AM
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It finally arrived




I have the 500 projecting on the wall so at least I know it works .

Now to brace the I beam joists in the ceiling and install the mount.
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post #3122 of 4164 Old 06-11-2014, 02:55 AM
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Found this card in the bottom of the box. Thanks Sony but it's a little late I think.



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post #3123 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by WIKED View Post
Found this card in the bottom of the box. Thanks Sony but it's a little late I think.



Look at the last paragraph, looks like they mean March 31 2015, not 2014. Worth asking your dealer.
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post #3124 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Look at the last paragraph, looks like they mean March 31 2015, not 2014. Worth asking your dealer.
Yes well I was told you had to go before 31st March this year with your receipt and get a redemption then you had another 12 months to get the lamp but I will be going to the local Sony store to see if they will do it for me.
I might be able to source a genuine lamp anyway for more than $100 less than they will charge. Time will tell.

I did cut out a piece of the floor upstairs above where the PJ will reside and have total access to the I-beams joists and will make the extra support between the two tomorrow and then hang this sucker up.

The mounting bracket they designed and made looks like it is great quality. It was designed and made by Visual Fidelity (The Australian Stewart Filmscreen distributor). Their installer told me they were installing at least one 500ES a week in people's homes and they didn't like the existing ones so they designed one that has superior adjustment and design. I got it for free with the PJ anyway so I cannot complain.
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post #3125 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Balthazar2k4 

The problem has always been there admittedly. The real difference is that it was better masked at native 1080p. Scaling iTunes garbage up to 4K only exacerbates the problem. It was tolerable before, but now it is completely unacceptable.


I just mean that the pixel increase on your projector (to 4K) wouldn't be in of itself responsible for "uncovering" problems with iTunes sources; in other words, a 1080p projector is not masking these problems by virtue of it being "only' 1080p compared to the 4K pixels on your Sony. Ideally the scaling to 4k should make the image either identical to a 1080p image, or a bit smoother (scaling to smaller pixels can smooth out line edges).
So a 4K projector shouldn't be "unmasking" problems with iTunes vs a 1080p projector, unless the upscaling itself is to blame. Since I believe the Sony's upscaling is supposed to be pretty good, perhaps it's additional
image processing that is exacerbating any artifacts in the iTunes sources, for instance if you have Reality Creation on - maybe that setting is a bit high for iTunes sources?

There are other aspects than can exacerbate roughness or artifacts in a source: higher brightness is certainly one of them. Your Sony may be significantly brighter than your last projector which could definitely be part of the issue for lower quality sources. (That's one of the reasons I don't always have the brightness on my JVC projector as high as it will go - it can bring out artifacts in sources).
I decided to sit down and take a serious look at the situation with streaming media vs Blu on the VW600ES. I compared VUDU HDX and iTunes HD material against Blu through and Oppo-103D and an Apple TV. My sitting position is approximately 12' from the 110" screen.

One item you mentioned is that brightness can be a factor. Well, my Epson 5010 was significantly brighter out of the box than the Sony. Post calibration this remained true. The Epson looked "cleaner" with streaming sources which I can only attribute to the lack of upscaling needed. Streaming media is very economical with bit assignment and uses psychovisual enhancements to achieve perceived quality and reduced file sizes vs. BD. Scaling these aberrations or "errors" only makes them more noticeable. While I say the image looked cleaner on the Epson, I could still easily see the compromises being made during compression.

Just to level the playing field, I turned off all digital enhancements within the Oppo and Sony and did an A/B comparison of Lone Survivor across BD, iTunes, and VUDU. Using the scaler within the Sony, BD was clearly superior. Without a doubt. The image remained detailed and uniform frame to frame. iTunes and VUDU softened many details particularly on faces. This was evident in both slower and faster scenes. This was noticeable on the Epson as well, but not nearly as distracting as it was on the Sony. I can only attribute that to the upscaling of the bitrate starved stream. If I turned back on all of the processing effects such as Darbee, Reality Creation, etc., the problem became even worse.

It is important to note that streaming services and BD both use H.264 compression in most cases. There are no miraculous encoding settings that can take 1080p and compress it to 1/10th the size and expect parity upon close visual inspection. Higher resolutions reveal the issues because of the errors caused by scaling the image.

Sorry for the rant, but I really needed to get that off my chest. Full disclosure, I have over 400 movies in VUDU HDX and several hundred in iTunes HD. I am not making my observations to bad mouth a format as I am clearly format agnostic... well, maybe not anymore....

The Cave: Sony VPL-VW600ES, 110" Elite Fixed, Oppo BDP-103D, Apple TV 3, Marantz SR-7009, 3 x Emotiva XPA-1 Gen2 , 4 x Emotiva XPA-1L, MartinLogan Motion 60XT, MartinLogan Motion 50XT, 4 x MartinLogan MotionFX, 2 x Rythmik FV15HP, 4 x Gallo Nucleus Micro (Atmos Height)
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post #3126 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MaDBeN View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by BrolicBeast 

Does anybody know if the Sony's RF Signal will work through a triple-layer/green-glued hush box w/ Edmund's optical projector glass?  I ask because although RF signals technically should permeate, I had issues with my old JVC RS-56's RF signal passing through just a standard drywall wall in my last theater (projector was housed under stairs behind seating position). 


Hey Brolic I am using the Edmund Optics 3mm AR Coated Glass and have no issues with the projectors RF signals passing through the glass. My projector is mounted in a separate equipment room 8 or so foot behind the MLP. It's only a smallish UK room and even with the projector in high lamp mode once the films rolling I am yet to hear the fan noise. Best of luck with your new build looks like a great project.

Ben
How close do/did you have the projector seated to the glass. I thought the space round the lens is for air intake. I then read your other posts regarding possible heat issues. You don't think this is related do you?
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post #3127 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
How close do/did you have the projector seated to the glass. I thought the space round the lens is for air intake. I then read your other posts regarding possible heat issues. You don't think this is related do you?
The glass is over a foot away from the lens. Should hopefully be plenty of room?

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post #3128 of 4164 Old 06-12-2014, 11:46 PM
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The glass is over a foot away from the lens. Should hopefully be plenty of room?

One would hope so.
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post #3129 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 12:05 AM
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One would hope so.
Thanks magicj1. I do have additional cooling fans on in the equipment room while watching a film. The issue I have can be seen as soon as the projector is turned on.

Thanks
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post #3130 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MaDBeN View Post
Thanks magicj1. I do have additional cooling fans on in the equipment room while watching a film. The issue I have can be seen as soon as the projector is turned on.

Thanks
It is a shame the Sony's front exhausts blow out forward in line with the intake.
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post #3131 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 12:35 PM
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I"m sorry for MaDBen reported issue. Are there more people experiencing it? If it's not an issue with the PJ, wouldn't other owners be panging hard by the time? I was interested in this unit, but, thinking better, I shall wait for Cedia to see if more 4k projectors come into scene, or even better, if sony presents a replacement for the 600ES and the 500, with features that improve the quality of the image more noticeably . Lastly, does the upscale in 2k pictures in these projectors is something that can be detected easily or, at the most, It is something subtle? Thanks for the information.
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post #3132 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by waltiesantos View Post
I"m sorry for MaDBen reported issue. Are there more people experiencing it? If it's not an issue with the PJ, wouldn't other owners be panging hard by the time? I was interested in this unit, but, thinking better, I shall wait for Cedia to see if more 4k projectors come into scene, or even better, if sony presents a replacement for the 600ES and the 500, with features that improve the quality of the image more noticeably . Lastly, does the upscale in 2k pictures in these projectors is something that can be detected easily or, at the most, It is something subtle? Thanks for the information.
The effect of upscaling/sharpening HD material to 4K is not subtle at all. In my opinion it is one of the best features of the 500/600es as the reality creation is improved over the 1000es. In fact I even prefer it to my HTPC upscaling with JINC+AR or NEEDI. But much of the better image is due to the 4K pixel count - as it allows for better image reconstruction (basic sampling theory). Now, I can only speak for myself - If you would perceive the benefit as subtle or not, I can't tell - you have to find out for yourself.

Regarding the MaDBen issue: As of now I only know of ONE other machine with a similar problem.
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post #3133 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 02:45 PM
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Thank you for the information Jojodyne. Your position on these PJs is the same of renowned reviewers. But is always better to ask someone who owns the device and uses it regularly. Well, Cedia 2014 is just a few months away and so is IFA 2015. Very probably, bless me, I will buy a 4k projector next year and my preference goes to Sony, which is a step ahead of other brands in 4k matters. Even if it takes sometime to have a solid 4k base (be it blue-ray, streaming or dowloading), buying a projector 2.0 HDMI ready, guarantees its compliance with other features that may come in hand with the natural development and embracement of the technology. Lots of enjoyment with your pretty toy.
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post #3134 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 04:24 PM
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The effect of upscaling/sharpening HD material to 4K is not subtle at all. In my opinion it is one of the best features of the 500/600es as the reality creation is improved over the 1000es. In fact I even prefer it to my HTPC upscaling with JINC+AR or NEEDI. But much of the better image is due to the 4K pixel count - as it allows for better image reconstruction (basic sampling theory). Now, I can only speak for myself - If you would perceive the benefit as subtle or not, I can't tell - you have to find out for yourself.

Regarding the MaDBen issue: As of now I only know of ONE other machine with a similar problem.
The scaling including RC in the 500/600 and the 1100ES are EXACTLY the same. Almost all US 1000ES owners have had their projectors upgraded in the field to 1100ES status. In my opinion the Sony scaling could be better because of Sony's decision to add ringing to improve the perception of sharpness (at the cost of high frequency detail being lost behind the ringing).

This is not a maybe or mine doesn't ring. Most scalars deliberately introduce ringing as a way of ameliorating the loss of sharpness that is part in parcel to scaling.

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post #3135 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 05:14 PM
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Do any of you use a Darblet with your 600? Does it make a worthwhile difference? I'm on the fence about trying the Darblet and wondering how my 600's picture could be any better than it is now.
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post #3136 of 4164 Old 06-13-2014, 06:27 PM
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The Darblet or the Darbee algs (which are the same as in the Darblet) incorporated into the Lumagens and the Oppo with the D designation, will improve both the 600 and the 1100ES. By making the contrast transitions stronger without introducing ringing will improve detail resolution.

Mike G or Craig at AV Science can fix you up and their usual money back if you don't like it after a short trial guarantees a trial will only cost you a minor amount of shipping.

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post #3137 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The scaling including RC in the 500/600 and the 1100ES are EXACTLY the same. Almost all US 1000ES owners have had their projectors upgraded in the field to 1100ES status. In my opinion the Sony scaling could be better because of Sony's decision to add ringing to improve the perception of sharpness (at the cost of high frequency detail being lost behind the ringing).
I NEVER claimed that the 500/600es was different from the 1100es. I specifically and deliberately mentioned the 1000es. The RC in the 500/600 IS different from the 1000es - for example sharpening can be applied much more subtle, as the adjustment allows for finer steps.

The rest of your statements are dubious. First, even if a scaling/sharpening method introduces ringing, there is no "high frequency detail being lost behind the ringing". In fact the ringing is "high frequency" detail - only amplified too much, so it becomes an distracting artefact. This can easily be seen if you look at the standard sharpening via the unsharp mask (substracting a low passed filtered version of the image from the image itself , leading to relatively more high frequencies in the image) -> this introduces ringing if done to aggresively, because and only because high frequency detail is amplified too much. This is true even before it runs into clipping.

Second, the Sony's reality creation (RC), in regard to ringing, is one of the better detail enhancements out there - showing only minimal ringing. Also the statement that Sony included ringing deliberately in the RC is ludicrous. I claim that they went out of their way to avoid rining. See this scaling comparion between RC on/off and the Oppo scaling: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...ture%20Quality
Or this comparison between Sony's RC and madVR's various upscaling methods (e.g. JINC+AR) on testpatterns: **** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? )
Also be aware that the sony 500/600es has TWO sharpening functions - one is RC, and the other is a general "sharpening". The latter should be turned down, because it behaves much like a normal unsharp mask (according to hdtvtest.uk a setting of 10 is supposed to be neutral here).

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This is not a maybe or mine doesn't ring. Most scalars deliberately introduce ringing as a way of ameliorating the loss of sharpness that is part in parcel to scaling.
This is only half true. "The loss of sharpness" is not part in parcel to (up)scaling. There is always a gain in image quality and perceived detail, as you can better reconstruct the image with the additional resolution you are up-scaling to. This is true for even the simplest of upscaling methods (anything above and even including linear interpolation). For a demonstration see these pictures by Bjorn Roy (bi-cubic upscaling): http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...le-DVD-on-HTPC
Without getting to technical, as perceived sharpness is a complex issue (real detail vs.edge enhancement), let's just say reconstructing a sampled image is about trade-offs. One of these trade-offs is to trade aliasing artefacts for perceived sharpness. Most scalers historically (bi-cubic, lanczos) approximate the sinc filter kernel resulting from applying the Shannon-Whittaker Theorem. It is correct to say that scalers (especially lanczos) CAN (depending on the coefficients) introduce extra sharpening which then also leads to some ringing. BUT scalers do not "deliberately" introduce ringing - they apply some sharpening based on what kind of trade-off they aim for - and TOLERATE some ringing artefacts in return. There are a lot of efforts in designing scalers to reduce ringing if overly visible, e.g. limit-sharpen or madVR's additional anti-ringing filter.

Bottom line: Sony's Reality Creation as all sharpening/scalers are bound by some trade-offs, and it has some unwanted side effects if applied to strongly (amplifies grain/video noise to much and others). But in regard to ringing it is really one of the better algorithms (in its 500/600/1100es incarnation) out there for upscaling to 4k.

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post #3138 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 02:26 AM
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I know it may sound an exercise of futurism, but, considering your knowledge on Vpl-VW 600 ES, do you expect a new version of the model for the next year? Being 2.0, could it benefit from improvements (new features) by means of firmware downloads or such features implementation would require hardware changes and a compulsory upgrade to make use of them?
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post #3139 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 03:15 AM
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I have to say I am extremely impressed with the 500ES.
Mounted it this afternoon on the ceiling and although I am only projecting The Dark Night Blu-Ray through my Oppo 105D onto a white sheet stapled to a bare wall frame (until I double sheet the wall etc ) the picture looks great. Currently the size is 132" in 2.35:1 aspect and that is the biggest I can. PJ throw is 14' 1" and lamp in low mode.

The only problem I am having is updating the firmware. My firmware is 1005 and I am trying to update it to 1006 but it's not playing ball.
I put the update folder on a USB (as per the instructions from Sony) and turned off the PJ, installed the USB and turned back on. It doesn't do anything. Tried twice and nothing. I am using a Mac but that shouldn't be a drama as the USB is FAT32 anyway. Can anyone shed any light on this?

thanks
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post #3140 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by waltiesantos View Post
I know it may sound an exercise of futurism, but, considering your knowledge on Vpl-VW 600 ES, do you expect a new version of the model for the next year? Being 2.0, could it benefit from improvements (new features) by means of firmware downloads or such features implementation would require hardware changes and a compulsory upgrade to make use of them?


Although I'm not the person your question was directed to, here is my 2 cents worth. I would expect Sony to announce a replacement for the VW600 at CEDIA Expo that would begin shipping in late 2014 or early 2015. If nothing else, it would have new HDMI chips to provide full bandwidth HDMI 2.0 inputs along with the video processing to accept and display higher fidelity/higher bit depth 4K formats, such as for example 4K @60Hz with 12-bit depth using 4:2:2 and @24Hz with up to 16-bit depth using 4:4:4. I would also expect Sony to either reduce the price on the VW600 replacement for the U.S. market or introduce a new lower priced, entry level 4K/UHD projector, perhaps as a direct successor to the VW95 (i.e., in that same price range). It's also possible Sony will introduce their 2nd generation of consumer 4K display chips with the new projectors perhaps supporting such things as increased bit-depth and perhaps their new models will offer such other features as picture mode(s) with increased color gamut to better align with the capabilities expected with Blu-ray UHD.

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post #3141 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by waltiesantos View Post
I know it may sound an exercise of futurism, but, considering your knowledge on Vpl-VW 600 ES, do you expect a new version of the model for the next year? Being 2.0, could it benefit from improvements (new features) by means of firmware downloads or such features implementation would require hardware changes and a compulsory upgrade to make use of them?
Ad-hoc speculation on:

Usually Sony's chassis stay around for a long time with only yearly minor tweaks (HW50->HW55->HW40 or VW80->85->90->95). I would expect a minor upgrade this year or next year (at the latest) at a lower price-point outside japan (my guess $9999 or $8999). There are mostly two areas which I would like to see addressed: (1) the long warm-up phase before convergence settles (2) some minor quirks in the rendering pipeline (e.g. a proper low lag game mode, fully defeatable factory convergence adjustment etc). Naturally, improvement in native contrast are always welcome. I personally do not find the current lack of full bandwidth hdmi 2.0 a big issue - movies for example are 24p, and at that framerate the sony accepts UHD at 4:4:4 or 12 bit deep-color UHD at 4:2:2, both beyond current content specs. The only source of 60p 4K 8 bit 4:4:4 content might be HTPC gaming, there one would have to be content with 4:2:0 - which for gaming I would not mind (For now there are not even graphics cards or dp->hdmi 2.0 active adaptors outputting UHD@60 over hdmi). But most certainly a follow up model will have full bandwidth hdmi 2.0 circuitry.

Ad-hoc speculation off..

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post #3142 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 08:25 AM
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I have to say I am extremely impressed with the 500ES.
Mounted it this afternoon on the ceiling and although I am only projecting The Dark Night Blu-Ray through my Oppo 105D onto a white sheet stapled to a bare wall frame (until I double sheet the wall etc ) the picture looks great. Currently the size is 132" in 2.35:1 aspect and that is the biggest I can. PJ throw is 14' 1" and lamp in low mode.

The only problem I am having is updating the firmware. My firmware is 1005 and I am trying to update it to 1006 but it's not playing ball.
I put the update folder on a USB (as per the instructions from Sony) and turned off the PJ, installed the USB and turned back on. It doesn't do anything. Tried twice and nothing. I am using a Mac but that shouldn't be a drama as the USB is FAT32 anyway. Can anyone shed any light on this?

thanks
Some people report that the mac creates a hidden file in the update folder that needs to be deleted. Others just take the simple route of formatting and copying the files in a virtual windows machine on their mac - this is supposed to work reliably.
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post #3143 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 08:32 AM
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Thanks to both Ron Jones and Jojodyne. Your expectations really lead me to wait for Cedia 2014. Certainly, that's what I'm about to do.
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post #3144 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
....
Also be aware that the sony 500/600es has TWO sharpening functions - one is RC, and the other is a general "sharpening". The latter should be turned down, because it behaves much like a normal unsharp mask (according to hdtvtest.uk a setting of 10 is supposed to be neutral here). ....
Thank you very much for your detailed discussion. Two simple questions: by 'general sharpening' I presume you mean the 'Sharpness' setting, right?, and ~ 10 is a recommended value?

Second, RC itself has 2 components, 'Resolution' and 'Noise Filtering'. Does your discussion have to do primarily with the 'Resolution' setting? What about 'Noise Filtering'?
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post #3145 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 10:20 AM
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I"m sorry for MaDBen reported issue. Are there more people experiencing it? If it's not an issue with the PJ, wouldn't other owners be panging hard by the time? I was interested in this unit, but, thinking better, I shall wait for Cedia to see if more 4k projectors come into scene, or even better, if sony presents a replacement for the 600ES and the 500, with features that improve the quality of the image more noticeably . Lastly, does the upscale in 2k pictures in these projectors is something that can be detected easily or, at the most, It is something subtle? Thanks for the information.
I am not expecting a replacement for the 500/600. I think they will have a two year run.

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post #3146 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 10:22 AM
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The scaling including RC in the 500/600 and the 1100ES are EXACTLY the same. Almost all US 1000ES owners have had their projectors upgraded in the field to 1100ES status. In my opinion the Sony scaling could be better because of Sony's decision to add ringing to improve the perception of sharpness (at the cost of high frequency detail being lost behind the ringing).
I NEVER claimed that the 500/600es was different from the 1100es. I specifically and deliberately mentioned the 1000es. The RC in the 500/600 IS different from the 1000es - for example sharpening can be applied much more subtle, as the adjustment allows for finer steps.

The rest of your statements are dubious. First, even if a scaling/sharpening method introduces ringing, there is no "high frequency detail being lost behind the ringing". In fact the ringing is "high frequency" detail - only amplified too much, so it becomes an distracting artefact. This can easily be seen if you look at the standard sharpening via the unsharp mask (substracting a low passed filtered version of the image from the image itself , leading to relatively more high frequencies in the image) -> this introduces ringing if done to aggresively, because and only because high frequency detail is amplified too much. This is true even before it runs into clipping.

Second, the Sony's reality creation (RC), in regard to ringing, is one of the better detail enhancements out there - showing only minimal ringing. Also the statement that Sony included ringing deliberately in the RC is ludicrous. I claim that they went out of their way to avoid rining. See this scaling comparion between RC on/off and the Oppo scaling: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...ture%20Quality
Or this comparison between Sony's RC and madVR's various upscaling methods (e.g. JINC+AR) on testpatterns: **** So you've built your HTPC-NOW WHAT IS NEXT ?? How to get the "ULTIMATE" picture and sound quality from your HTPC !!!! (MADVR? SVP? XBMC? Mediabrowser? Jriver? )
Also be aware that the sony 500/600es has TWO sharpening functions - one is RC, and the other is a general "sharpening". The latter should be turned down, because it behaves much like a normal unsharp mask (according to hdtvtest.uk a setting of 10 is supposed to be neutral here).

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This is not a maybe or mine doesn't ring. Most scalars deliberately introduce ringing as a way of ameliorating the loss of sharpness that is part in parcel to scaling.
This is only half true. "The loss of sharpness" is not part in parcel to (up)scaling. There is always a gain in image quality and perceived detail, as you can better reconstruct the image with the additional resolution you are up-scaling to. This is true for even the simplest of upscaling methods (anything above and even including linear interpolation). For a demonstration see these pictures by Bjorn Roy (bi-cubic upscaling): http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...le-DVD-on-HTPC
Without getting to technical, as perceived sharpness is a complex issue (real detail vs.edge enhancement), let's just say reconstructing a sampled image is about trade-offs. One of these trade-offs is to trade aliasing artefacts for perceived sharpness. Most scalers historically (bi-cubic, lanczos) approximate the sinc filter kernel resulting from applying the Shannon-Whittaker Theorem. It is correct to say that scalers (especially lanczos) CAN (depending on the coefficients) introduce extra sharpening which then also leads to some ringing. BUT scalers do not "deliberately" introduce ringing - they apply some sharpening based on what kind of trade-off they aim for - and TOLERATE some ringing artefacts in return. There are a lot of efforts in designing scalers to reduce ringing if overly visible, e.g. limit-sharpen or madVR's additional anti-ringing filter.

Bottom line: Sony's Reality Creation as all sharpening/scalers are bound by some trade-offs, and it has some unwanted side effects if applied to strongly (amplifies grain/video noise to much and others). But in regard to ringing it is really one of the better algorithms (in its 500/600/1100es incarnation) out there for upscaling to 4k.
RC is not a scaling alg. Sony's scaling algs (from whatever up to UHD or 4K all deliberately are designed to ring. Ringing is part of the process. scaling reduces sharpness because of the artificial creation of additional lines. Something must be done to bring back the sharpness lost. Ringing makes things look sharper to ones eyes. RC does not introduce more ringing. But RC is not scaling. It is applied to the results of the scaling. I prefer scaling which does not ring even though it will appear less sharp than a scaling which introduces (deliberately) ringing.

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post #3147 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 10:27 AM
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I think Sony is part to blame here for this confusion. They've made it seem the two are one entity indivisible from one another. As if you can't have one without the other.

I agree with Mark. Ringing takes away the analog look most films are supposed to have. Added ringing makes these digital projectors look... digital. That isn't something we should want with most content. This is also what RC does when used in excess. It makes things look very digital and "cooked". The image when RC is enabled on most, if not all, levels looks over processed. RC should be used at very low levels, if not at all, with most content.

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post #3148 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
RC is not a scaling alg. Sony's scaling algs (from whatever up to UHD or 4K all deliberately are designed to ring. Ringing is part of the process. scaling reduces sharpness because of the artificial creation of additional lines. Something must be done to bring back the sharpness lost. Ringing makes things look sharper to ones eyes. RC does not introduce more ringing. But RC is not scaling. It is applied to the results of the scaling. I prefer scaling which does not ring even though it will appear less sharp than a scaling which introduces (deliberately) ringing.
Please stop spreading misinformation. No, "scaling does not reduce sharpness because of the artificial creation of lines" - this shows a complete lack of understanding of sampling theory. You try to reconstruct the original image (as in before it was sampled in the first place) from a sampled representation on a higher resolution. So infact you are resampling the already sampled image, but always with the goal in mind of "faithfully" reconstruction the original (pre-sampled) image.

The following thought experiment should clear that up if you upscale to a resolution two times higher in both dimension (as in HD to UHD) you could just duplicate every pixel (called point sampling). This would NOT introduce any ringing, and the original sampled image is preserved completely (as the real output resolution of yourse is the same, despite upscaling). Neither is its sharpness reduced, nor is there any "artifical" creation of lines going on. This holds for linear interpolation and many other interpolation methods, if the interpolation kernel is made to be sharpness-neutral. I provided the link with images scaled to different resolutions by Bjorn Roy - these also do not exhibit any ringing, yet look more detailed (please for once look at the evidence). Linking sharpening to scaling is a design choice, but not because you have to get something back you lost, but to shift the trade-off between aliasing/bandwidth and "sharpness" (which is not a bad idea in itself ).

Also, Ringing (as I tried to explain earlier) is an visible artefakt of amplifying higher frequencies above the availabe bandwidth (equivalent to saying the resulting image lacks high enough frequencies due to being bandwidth limited - low passed) - but it remains an unwanted artefact. Ideally you want to boost detail (= higher frequencies) without ringing to become visible. It's not the ringing that looks sharper to ones eyes, but the larger amount of high frequencies does. Ringing is the overshoot/undershoot from excessive high frequency boosting in parts of the picture where our brain indentifies is as out of place. It just looks bad, and needs to be avoided. That's why for example limit-sharpen just defines a threshold that if exceeded reverts to a less sharpned version of the pixel.

Generally, the distinction between scaling and sharpening is not as you make it out to be, it can be folded into one operation (and very often is with for example lanczos scaling) or applied in sequence - this does not change any of the implications. Scaling does not need to "ring" and sharpening generally should try to avoid ringing. It is also possible to use an additional filter after scaling/sharpening to reduce ringing artefacts (e.g. JINC + AR in madVR)

If you would for one shed your "creationist" view of ringing and look at the links I provided, you would see that without RC the Sony reverts to point-sampling (or a very very mild linear interpolation, at best). If you do not trust the images in those links, you could just try for yourself with any 500es//600es and toggle RC on/off.. Also if you look at the upscaled images i provided, you will see no ringing with the RC. According to your theory, impossible. Yet, the ringing can clearly be seen with the Oppo upscaling and not on the sony RC picture. For your theory to be true, scaling would invariably introduce ringing, which would then be amplified by RC. But at least that does not show up in the images.

I stand by my opinion, that the Sony upscaling with RC does a pretty good job in regard to ringing. This does not mean that excessive use of RC comes without artefacts - grain and video noise is unaturrally amplified, and a generally the picture looks a tad artifical. I use general sharpness at 10 (as indentified by hdtvtest.uk as neutral - did not check myself yet) and RC-resolution at 20 with RC-noise-reduction at 10. Sony's defaults are much higher (resolution at 50, noise reduction at 25, sharpeness at 20?)

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post #3149 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 11:55 AM
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Also be aware that the sony 500/600es has TWO sharpening functions - one is RC, and the other is a general "sharpening". The latter should be turned down, because it behaves much like a normal unsharp mask (according to hdtvtest.uk a setting of 10 is supposed to be neutral here). ....
Thank you very much for your detailed discussion. Two simple questions: by 'general sharpening' I presume you mean the 'Sharpness' setting, right?, and ~ 10 is a recommended value?

Second, RC itself has 2 components, 'Resolution' and 'Noise Filtering'. Does your discussion have to do primarily with the 'Resolution' setting? What about 'Noise Filtering'?
Yes, it seems that "sharpness" has to be set to 10 to be neutral (according to hdtvtest.uk). The neutral setting is recommended here as the algorithm behind "sharpness" seems like a basic unsharp mask, so that it's use might introduce unwanted ringing. Also, the RC does a better job, so why not use it.

In regard to noise filtering. Most detail enhancement methods have a hard time differentiating wanted detail from film grain, video noise, compression noise or low light camera noise. If these get enhanced/boosted the picture might look excessively noisy. That's why many detail-enhancement methods also include a noise filtering stage. All settings interact a little (the lower "resolution" is set, the less "noise filtering" you are probably goin to need). Also the sony has two noise reduction functions. The non-RC noise reduction is a temporal noise reduction, which might lead to some "smearing" or "noise" patterns". It tries to identify noise by comparing successive frames (or just averaging high frequency components over two or more frames).

For good bluray content without to much noise you could use: RC-resolution 20-25, RC-noise filtering 5-15 and sharpness 10, and noise reduction off. If you like it sharper or like it less noisy artificial you can play around with these parameters. Setting RC resolution to low (<3-5) results in the sony reverting to point-sampling - this should be avoided.
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post #3150 of 4164 Old 06-14-2014, 12:15 PM
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Let me try and explain what I am saying with greater clarity. Suppose you have three points defining a triangle. very sharp. Now if you put a extra points around the points to define the three junction points. The triangle at the junction points will not be as sharp. You have to try and regain the sharpness. This was explained to me many years ago by Yves Faroud ja in a long private discussion about going from line doubling to line quadrupling.

I think we are differing mostly in semantics. Why do so many scalars ring rather than being ring free as in the Lumagens? The ringing in ringing scalars is done deliberately as part of the overall design. You can't eliminate the ringing caused by the Sony scaling algs. It is introduced in the design to improve the sharpness to ones eyes. Ringing is seen at contrast transitions. The larger the gradient at the transition the more apparent will be the transition BUT the transition will be more visible to your eyes. The ringing appears as a white halo around the darker side of the transition. The transition becomes more apparent to ones eyes. Thus one could say it appears sharper. There are two measures of sharpness. One is MTF and that by definition is the ability to resolve contrast differences and the other is the ability to resolve line pairs.


Ringing doesn't increase either. It hides the high frequency detail that otherwise would be visible at the transition. Semantics. Its still there but it burns out the detail as you say through over amplification. Whatever, but it is akin to amplification that clips. You can't see something that other wise would be there except for the clipping which in essence masks it. The downside of not creating the ringing is that because the lark of a clear let's call it black to white transition is that ones eyes won't see the transition as clearly. It will appear for lack of a better word less sharp but in fact the detail will now be visible where the other way it is gone because of the over amplification.




RC is not scaling. It is treatment applied after all scaling. It is not reality. It causes artifacts but most here have now concluded it to their eyes results in a sharper image with visible artifacts if applied minimally. This evaluation is on the application to an image that already has ringing. Fortunately, I have a scalar which doesn't ring. I can also reach the same conclusion. RC when applied to an image that is ring free results in an apparent improvement if only minimally applied The same applies to the Darbeevision algs. If applied minimally, the contrast resolution is improved without visible artifacts provided the Darbee application is kept low, say below 30% though more critical viewers might suggest 20% as where artifacts start to become visible.

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