Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 112 - AVS Forum
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post #3331 of 3467 Old 07-10-2014, 11:05 AM
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For example, a 1080p 3 reflective LCOS chips with a proprietry chip design that is a breakthrough in LCOS performance.

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post #3332 of 3467 Old 07-10-2014, 05:51 PM
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If you have a 10 feet wide screen, what's the closest you can mount the sony 600es?

The specs doesn't show a 'throw ratio' instead shows a zoom of 2.06. How do you calculate a 'zoom'?
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post #3333 of 3467 Old 07-10-2014, 06:53 PM
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According to the 600ES operating manual, the minimum and maximum projection distances are expressed in relation to the diagonal screen dimension and there are different tables for the various aspect ratios. For example, for 1.78:1, the minimum distance (in inches) is expressed as L = 1.217856 × D – 1.7084. So, if your screen width is 120 inches (10'), the diagonal would be about 137" and the minimum distance would be about 166" or 13' 10". As a check I used the calculator on the projectorcentral site, and setting the diagonal to 137", it shows the minimum throw to be 13' 9".
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post #3334 of 3467 Old 07-10-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by IanR View Post
According to the 600ES operating manual, the minimum and maximum projection distances are expressed in relation to the diagonal screen dimension and there are different tables for the various aspect ratios. For example, for 1.78:1, the minimum distance (in inches) is expressed as L = 1.217856 × D – 1.7084. So, if your screen width is 120 inches (10'), the diagonal would be about 137" and the minimum distance would be about 166" or 13' 10". As a check I used the calculator on the projectorcentral site, and setting the diagonal to 137", it shows the minimum throw to be 13' 9".
Thanks a lot... need to go design my mount location now.
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post #3335 of 3467 Old 07-10-2014, 07:32 PM
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I have a 126 x 54 inch screen. the 600es is about 14 ft away.
now that fills the area for a 16 x 9 projection
when i show cinemascope i zoom out and it fills the whole screen easily and beautifully.
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post #3336 of 3467 Old 07-11-2014, 01:20 PM
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the new Nvidia beta update for the newer Nvidia video cards allows 3840x2160 over the HDMI 1.4 cable. For PC gaming, it's awesome! I have a decent rig and have been playing last years Tomb Raider, and at that resolution, it's awesome. So video and everything will work. I believe the work around was 4:2:0 but for gaming at least, I don't see any difference quality wise, but I do see a nice 60 fps.
Thanks for the news. Do you see a difference in latency/lag? The 600 has ~120 msecs when feeding 1080p and I would like to know if 2160p bypasses whatever internal component is there that adds up to the lag...

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post #3337 of 3467 Old 07-11-2014, 01:45 PM
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Thanks for the news. Do you see a difference in latency/lag? The 600 has ~120 msecs when feeding 1080p and I would like to know if 2160p bypasses whatever internal component is there that adds up to the lag...
I can't say for sure how much, but there is a definate improvement for lag.
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post #3338 of 3467 Old 07-11-2014, 07:39 PM
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What Nvidia card are you using?
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post #3339 of 3467 Old 07-12-2014, 12:30 PM
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What Nvidia card are you using?
Dual GTX780 TI
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post #3340 of 3467 Old 07-12-2014, 12:55 PM
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600ES Calibration

I posted something about the 600ES calibration is some thread but don't believe it was this one. I'm old = I forget....

The 600ES calibrates exceptionally well considering it only has a 2 point grayscale control. The Color Management System locks in the settings and is not much influenced by other settings changes. It takes longer to set up my equipment than to calibrate, something I've never seen before.

AVS has eliminated the possibility of posting pdf files due to a new limitation of 19.5 kb. Here are a some images. The full reports are accessible on the site in my signature. They are on the home page just under "HOME"

600ES Cal Image 01.jpg

600ES Cal Image 02.jpg

600ES Cal Image 03.jpg
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post #3341 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 01:14 AM
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Dual GTX780 TI
Does the 2160p @ 60 Hz resolution work in SLI mode?

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post #3342 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 02:40 AM
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What I actually said was the 5030 replacement will not be a 4K model, but Epson's new flagship models MAY be 4K, but there are other possibilities for their new flagship models that could justify their 2X (or more) price compared to the current 5030 and 6030 (or their replacement models).

From what I hear, it may be 4K, but it will be laser

And why on earth cant I write in here ( in explores ) anymore ? after the new and "improved" !!!?? " AVS

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post #3343 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 06:41 AM
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I don't anybody claimed it was new and improved. The new forum owners had to change platforms and they went back to a platform used by earlier owners. It has pluses and minuses.

I think the term lit by laser is a stretch here BUT the prime objective of using a laser in the first place (eliminating the bulb(s) and the need to change it or them, has been eliminated. A small blue laser provides the blue light and provides the ignition for spinning phosphior wheel (it needs to spin so that the re is more phosphore for the beam to hit and to prevent overheating of the wheel (and its all about employing a wide variety of tricks etc to eek out 20,000 hours from the wheel)). The spinning wheel becomes the equivalent of a large bulb issueing white light. Better than a bulb because it lasts way longer and doesn't deteriorate very much in light output. From there the machine is the same as bulb machine. Polarizers and diachromatic filters to provide the LIGHT (red and green, the laser does provide the blue directly but blue is insignificant compared to green and even red. Other advantages of laser illumination are not obtained. Mainly the ability to use a much cheaper lens and the ability to send the light to the projector from remotely located sources and better blacks due to in a pure laser machine the ability to shut the laser off and instantly back on. A cheap and rather elegant solution to increasing light source longetivity and lumens. No speckle issues either.

But in essence its a big white bulb and the brighter it is the worse contrast from our chip technology will be. Reduce the lumens out and the contrast improves. the availability of this engine is essentially available to all projector manufacturers. What is needed, as is always needed, are better performing chips and here lies the true promise, whoops maybe wrong word based on the past performance of Epson in bringing its own Lcos type chip to market. Sony has had phosphor wheel projectors for several years now and is on its second model generation. It has 4000 lumens will last for a long long time without service but it has fecal for contrast and blacks. The curse of make it bright vs making great blacks.

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post #3344 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 06:50 AM
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Let us put it another way. Brazil after losing its semifinal match has a better chance of still winning the world' cup on Sunday than Sony replacing the 600 this year.
Well we will see, with JVC and Epson releasing 4K projector Sony finaly will have some competition
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post #3345 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by IanR View Post
According to the 600ES operating manual, the minimum and maximum projection distances are expressed in relation to the diagonal screen dimension and there are different tables for the various aspect ratios. For example, for 1.78:1, the minimum distance (in inches) is expressed as L = 1.217856 × D – 1.7084. So, if your screen width is 120 inches (10'), the diagonal would be about 137" and the minimum distance would be about 166" or 13' 10". As a check I used the calculator on the projectorcentral site, and setting the diagonal to 137", it shows the minimum throw to be 13' 9".
Thank you that should work in my room!
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post #3346 of 3467 Old 07-13-2014, 08:43 AM
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Well we will see, with JVC and Epson releasing 4K projector Sony finaly will have some competition
Neither company has said they're releasing a 4K projector yet. Also, all rumors point to Epson releasing a 1080p "eshift" LCoS projector.
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post #3347 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 01:30 AM
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Neither company has said they're releasing a 4K projector yet. Also, all rumors point to Epson releasing a 1080p "eshift" LCoS projector.
EShift is a pretty way of saying 'all we have is a line quadupler'... an 80s technology, more or less.

Every JVC showroom i go to, or av show that showcase JVC, their salesmen are trained to 'lie' to customers, saying they have 4K projectors... when i asked them deeper questions, they will continue to insist that it's true 4K.... There has to be some sort of law against such blatant lying to customers.
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post #3348 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 04:25 AM
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EShift is a pretty way of saying 'all we have is a line quadupler'... an 80s technology, more or less.

Every JVC showroom i go to, or av show that showcase JVC, their salesmen are trained to 'lie' to customers, saying they have 4K projectors... when i asked them deeper questions, they will continue to insist that it's true 4K.... There has to be some sort of law against such blatant lying to customers.
How is it a lie? Is DLP a monochrome tech? Is 1080i really 540? JVC is using an inherent feature of crystals to temporally make a higher resolution.

How do we know you're not some shill from Sony? It's easy, don't like it, don't buy it.

People like you are why coffee isn't as hot as it used to be or why retail establishments aren't allowed to sell really raw untreated almonds.

How about the lie a digital has inky blacks? The only technology capable of true inky blacks is CRT, with over true 700,000:1 contrast.
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post #3349 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 04:48 AM
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How is it a lie? Is DLP a monochrome tech? Is 1080i really 540? JVC is using an inherent feature of crystals to temporally make a higher resolution.

How do we know you're not some shill from Sony? It's easy, don't like it, don't buy it.

People like you are why coffee isn't as hot as it used to be or why retail establishments aren't allowed to sell really raw untreated almonds.

How about the lie a digital has inky blacks? The only technology capable of true inky blacks is CRT, with over true 700,000:1 contrast.
4k is a format that allows a display device to take in 4k source materials and display them. Marketing something as 4k when it's not is clearly a misrepresentation at best and a outright scam if you will.


I am not a fanboy of any brands. Just not happy with being constantly lied to by jvc sales rep.

This is not to say jvcs aren't good projectors. They just aren't 4k.
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
4k is a format that allows a display device to take in 4k source materials and display them. Marketing something as 4k when it's not is clearly a misrepresentation at best and a outright scam if you will.


I am not a fanboy of any brands. Just not happy with being constantly lied to by jvc sales rep.

This is not to say jvcs aren't good projectors. They just aren't 4k.
They accept a 4k signal. How isn't it displaying 4k? I'm really confused how this isn't like interlaced or 1 chip DLP's color?
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post #3351 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 05:33 AM
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They accept a 4k signal. How isn't it displaying 4k? I'm really confused how this isn't like interlaced or 1 chip DLP's color?
According to JVC itself:

The projectors, which according to JVC aren't technically 4K, use a system called "e-shift" which splits all incoming signals and spits them out to two 1080p panels. The image is then combined using "pixel shift" to emulate a 4K image.

From Projector Reviews:

A true 4K projector (let’s base it on 1080p), would be 3840×2160 pixels, or roughly 8 megapixels. This JVC projector though doesn’t do 8 megapixels – it fires 1920×1080 twice, which is half the number of pixels as true 4K. That’s the math. - See more at: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/....oGIlMvvD.dpuf

Words have meaning, and wrongfully using them on purpose combined with trying to sell something is known as a 'scam'.

Otherwise we might as well, e-shift the image a couple more times, and call it 64K and be done with it...

BTW: I still think JVC's e-shift is a nifty trick... and it does improve image quality... you might even be able to get away with it by calling it 'pseudo-4K upscale technology', but calling it a 4K projector outright is just plain wrong...
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post #3352 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
According to JVC itself:

The projectors, which according to JVC aren't technically 4K, use a system called "e-shift" which splits all incoming signals and spits them out to two 1080p panels. The image is then combined using "pixel shift" to emulate a 4K image.

From Projector Reviews:

A true 4K projector (let’s base it on 1080p), would be 3840×2160 pixels, or roughly 8 megapixels. This JVC projector though doesn’t do 8 megapixels – it fires 1920×1080 twice, which is half the number of pixels as true 4K. That’s the math. - See more at: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/....oGIlMvvD.dpuf

Words have meaning, and wrongfully using them on purpose combined with trying to sell something is known as a 'scam'.

Otherwise we might as well, e-shift the image a couple more times, and call it 64K and be done with it...

BTW: I still think JVC's e-shift is a nifty trick... and it does improve image quality... you might even be able to get away with it by calling it 'pseudo-4K upscale technology', but calling it a 4K projector outright is just plain wrong...
I always explain to customers that JVC uses E-shift to up-convert the 1080P signal. I want my customers to come back for repeat business. You don't get that by misleading people.
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post #3353 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 05:40 AM
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Debonaire. Some of us are destined to muddle through life in a state of outright confusion. The vast majority are probably in this state.

I think I can remove you to a state of non confusion. Hopefully you are smarter than the normal salesman you have run into. Factory reps are notoriously less intelligent than the average bear. I am not biased. This is an outright fact. There are some exceptions, but generally the specious borders on idiocy. But it survives.

JVC presents to your brain optical interface 3840 x 2160 pixels, How it does this is irrelevant. We can take in better than sex glorious 4K in its great bit depth, wide color range yada yada (OK, 4K source stuff for the most part isn't there yet in its potential finest), and process it so we can reduce it to very nice 1080p choked full of 4k information where our magicians put it back together with e shift and your brain eyes see it as GLORIOUS UHD. Certainly as good as the freekin great source material available. This might change when movies are shot and mastered in 4K digital etc. Then we will adapt our process to continue are lead in 4K display by ditching e shift and using panels of 3840 x 2160. You eyes will continue to see UHD. There you go.
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post #3354 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
According to JVC itself:

The projectors, which according to JVC aren't technically 4K, use a system called "e-shift" which splits all incoming signals and spits them out to two 1080p panels. The image is then combined using "pixel shift" to emulate a 4K image.

From Projector Reviews:

A true 4K projector (let’s base it on 1080p), would be 3840×2160 pixels, or roughly 8 megapixels. This JVC projector though doesn’t do 8 megapixels – it fires 1920×1080 twice, which is half the number of pixels as true 4K. That’s the math. - See more at: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/....oGIlMvvD.dpuf

Words have meaning, and wrongfully using them on purpose combined with trying to sell something is known as a 'scam'.

Otherwise we might as well, e-shift the image a couple more times, and call it 64K and be done with it...

BTW: I still think JVC's e-shift is a nifty trick... and it does improve image quality... you might even be able to get away with it by calling it 'pseudo-4K upscale technology', but calling it a 4K projector outright is just plain wrong...
Your source is wrong. It's done both vertical and horizontal. According to JVC.

This frame is then temporally separated into subframes 1920 x 1080
pixels each and projected using the D-ILA optical system and through the e-Shift device. This device
utilizes a property of liquid crystals called birefringence and can switch between straight light and
refracted light by 0.5 pixel both vertically and horizontally. It has no moving parts. The result is an
image with 4 times the pixel density of the original content.
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post #3355 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 06:08 AM
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Your source is wrong. It's done both vertical and horizontal. According to JVC.

This frame is then temporally separated into subframes 1920 x 1080
pixels each and projected using the D-ILA optical system and through the e-Shift device. This device
utilizes a property of liquid crystals called birefringence and can switch between straight light and
refracted light by 0.5 pixel both vertically and horizontally. It has no moving parts. The result is an
image with 4 times the pixel density of the original content.
I don't care how you 'split, combine, cook, simmer'... it's not a 4K projector. I don't know why you still defend the indefensible... might as well call a camry a rollsroyce...or a banana a monkey...

Is the end result great? Sure, I'll give it that.. still not a 4K projector... it's not that hard to understand...
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post #3356 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 08:16 AM
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I don't care how you 'split, combine, cook, simmer'... it's not a 4K projector. I don't know why you still defend the indefensible... might as well call a camry a rollsroyce...or a banana a monkey...

Is the end result great? Sure, I'll give it that.. still not a 4K projector... it's not that hard to understand...
This explains it.

http://alienryderflex.com/e-shift/

It's a form of interlacing. Like Full HD 1080p versus 1080i. I should sue TI because of DLP with your logic. I see color separation even on 3 chip. If we use a strict definition like you do then DLP is monochrome with fancy tricks.

E-shift isn't just two 1080p frames. But it isn't exactly the same as a single 2160p frame either

How is this hard to understand? If JVC were taken to court, you'd lose. Mark is right. Once they make a 4k chip, their marketing will call it super model 4k.

Exactly how e-shift works is disclosed on their website. It's up to the customer to read up and decide if it doesn't like their implementation of 4k. If you think it's a sales rep's duty to hold your hand, I have this bridge for sale real cheap. I'm happy creative salesmen exist, if it were illegal, very few of us would get any action and the human race would be in trouble.
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This explains it.

http://alienryderflex.com/e-shift/

It's a form of interlacing. Like Full HD 1080p versus 1080i. I should sue TI because of DLP with your logic. I see color separation even on 3 chip. If we use a strict definition like you do then DLP is monochrome with fancy tricks.

E-shift isn't just two 1080p frames. But it isn't exactly the same as a single 2160p frame either

How is this hard to understand? If JVC were taken to court, you'd lose. Mark is right. Once they make a 4k chip, their marketing will call it super model 4k.

Exactly how e-shift works is disclosed on their website. It's up to the customer to read up and decide if it doesn't like their implementation of 4k. If you think it's a sales rep's duty to hold your hand, I have this bridge for sale real cheap. I'm happy creative salesmen exist, if it were illegal, very few of us would get any action and the human race would be in trouble.
Lots of mumbo jumbo that translate to... NOT 4K...

Can the projector take in 8 megapixels source material and display all 8 megapixels exactly as the source call for, pixel for pixel? No... therefore, NOT 4K...

Not sure why you couldn't understand that... !
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Lots of mumbo jumbo that translate to... NOT 4K...

Can the projector take in 8 megapixels source material and display all 8 megapixels exactly as the source call for, pixel for pixel? No... therefore, NOT 4K...

Not sure why you couldn't understand that... !
Reminds me of all the 'wobulation' discussion, ~ 10 yrs ago, that got '1080p' by doubling a lesser signal.
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post #3359 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Reminds me of all the 'wobulation' discussion, ~ 10 yrs ago, that got '1080p' by doubling a lesser signal.
I remember the time when there was this line quadupler (which takes in normal DVD and quaduple the lines... at least they had the ethical sense to call it a line quadupler (can't seem to be able to spell it right)... and not 'Full HD'.
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post #3360 of 3467 Old 07-14-2014, 09:13 AM
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4k is a format that allows a display device to take in 4k source materials and display them. Marketing something as 4k when it's not is clearly a misrepresentation at best and a outright scam if you will.


I am not a fanboy of any brands. Just not happy with being constantly lied to by jvc sales rep.

This is not to say jvcs aren't good projectors. They just aren't 4k.
Um, they take in 4K and display it. They are also doing tricks to your eye to make it perceive more than 1080p for resolution. Most of what we see as video is using some kind of trick, from compression to interlacing to scaling. And considering that I've actually compared JVC's 4K playback solution directy against Sony's native 4K solution with native 4K material, it is gets about 90-95% of the way there. I doubt most would see a big difference at all except with fine text or extreme fine detail, but that argument could even be made with 1080p projectors with 1080p material with varying degrees of lens quality and other issues. JVC clearly states they are using eShift technology and they have information on what that is on their website. I don't see this as any more deceptive than DLP was with wobulation, which wasn't 1080p but could clearly resolve a 1080p single pixel on/off pattern with no issues. For the record, the Sony can't even resolve a single pixel on/off pattern in 4K despite a native 4K panel, so is it "truly" 4K???
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