Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 113 - AVS Forum
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post #3361 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I remember the time when there was this line quadupler (which takes in normal DVD and quaduple the lines... at least they had the ethical sense to call it a line quadupler (can't seem to be able to spell it right)... and not 'Full HD'.
Because it wasn't. It was taking a smaller resolution and making it a larger one. JVC's current version of eshift is not doing this. It is taking a full 4K signal, splitting it into two 1080p fields and showing BOTH of them fast enough and offset so that your eye sees 4K. That means ALL of the information that was there originally. It is not throwing anything away. Sorry, that is 4K. It is not scaling. Scaling is taking 1080p and upconverting it with false information to a higher resolution.

And again, if the definition of 4K is being able to show every pixel than neither the Sony or the JVC is truly 4K as neither can resolve a full single pixel on/off pattern without artifacts.

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post #3362 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Because it wasn't. It was taking a smaller resolution and making it a larger one. JVC's current version of eshift is not doing this. It is taking a full 4K signal, splitting it into two 1080p fields and showing BOTH of them fast enough and offset so that your eye sees 4K. That means ALL of the information that was there originally. It is not throwing anything away. Sorry, that is 4K. It is not scaling. Scaling is taking 1080p and upconverting it with false information to a higher resolution.

And again, if the definition of 4K is being able to show every pixel than neither the Sony or the JVC is truly 4K as neither can resolve a full single pixel on/off pattern without artifacts.
I sure hope your job as a JVC liar salesmen pays more than your old writing job.
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post #3363 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 09:43 AM
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Not sure what you're trying to imply there but definitely never been on JVC's payroll and I'd love to see you come back with something a bit less childish that actually debates the comments I made. I would never call the JVC a NATIVE 4K projector, but this generation does take and display 4K content whether you agree with me or not.

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post #3364 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not sure what you're trying to imply there but definitely never been on JVC's payroll and I'd love to see you come back with something a bit less childish that actually debates the comments I made. I would never call the JVC a NATIVE 4K projector, but this generation does take and display 4K content whether you agree with me or not.
You seriously missed my whole multi page smack down with Mr. Mumbo Jumbo Not 4k?Even Mark thought it was funny. I think your likes notifications is broken too.
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post #3365 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:00 AM
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Ah, gotcha. Yup, missed that.

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post #3366 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Um, they take in 4K and display it. They are also doing tricks to your eye to make it perceive more than 1080p for resolution. Most of what we see as video is using some kind of trick, from compression to interlacing to scaling. And considering that I've actually compared JVC's 4K playback solution directy against Sony's native 4K solution with native 4K material, it is gets about 90-95% of the way there. I doubt most would see a big difference at all except with fine text or extreme fine detail, but that argument could even be made with 1080p projectors with 1080p material with varying degrees of lens quality and other issues. JVC clearly states they are using eShift technology and they have information on what that is on their website. I don't see this as any more deceptive than DLP was with wobulation, which wasn't 1080p but could clearly resolve a 1080p single pixel on/off pattern with no issues. For the record, the Sony can't even resolve a single pixel on/off pattern in 4K despite a native 4K panel, so is it "truly" 4K???
When he said sales people, I took that as dealers, not JVC themselves. JVC is very plain about what E-shift is and it is a great system, that as you said works very well.
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post #3367 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Because it wasn't. It was taking a smaller resolution and making it a larger one. JVC's current version of eshift is not doing this. It is taking a full 4K signal, splitting it into two 1080p fields and showing BOTH of them fast enough and offset so that your eye sees 4K. That means ALL of the information that was there originally. It is not throwing anything away. Sorry, that is 4K. It is not scaling. Scaling is taking 1080p and upconverting it with false information to a higher resolution.

And again, if the definition of 4K is being able to show every pixel than neither the Sony or the JVC is truly 4K as neither can resolve a full single pixel on/off pattern without artifacts.
2x1080 chips does not make 4K...

2x1080p makes 2 megapixels x 2 = 4 megapixels... (4K = 8 megapixels)

You're missing 50% of the information...

So your statement 'not throwing anything away' is complete bogus...

But I am tired of debating with obvious JVC fanboys..

If you want to believe it's 4K, by all means, all the more power to you...


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post #3368 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
When he said sales people, I took that as dealers, not JVC themselves. JVC is very plain about what E-shift is and it is a great system, that as you said works very well.
You can actually get company salesmen who know jack. A Brookstone salesman told me that their pico projector shows all the pixels that you input, and doesn't scale. He didn't actually know what scaling meant, so it can't do what he doesn't understand.

If that's the case, of course it's easy to find salesmen who will tell you a JVC will get you play too.

If my wife ever leaves me, I can always go for that Brookstone salesman who was hitting on me.
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post #3369 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
2x1080 chips does not make 4K...

2x1080p makes 2 megapixels x 2 = 4 megapixels... (4K = 8 megapixels)

You're missing 50% of the information...

So your statement 'not throwing anything away' is complete bogus...

But I am tired of debating with obvious JVC fanboys..

If you want to believe it's 4K, by all means, all the more power to you...
Hey Kris, I think you now better understand that post I made?
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post #3370 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 10:57 AM
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Hey Kris, I think you now better understand that post I made?
I guess some people continues to think they are so smart with their smart alect comments... if you can't count 2+2=4 and that it's not =8, then maybe back to kindergarten for you...

With this kind of comment, you sound like a sore-loser high school bully...

here's the actual explanation for the newest form of e-shift from JVC:

JVC e-shift was originally designed as a unique way to project images with 3840x2160 (4K) precision from a 2D HD video source. The latest projectors models now utilize the e-shift process to also project native 4K video sources. For this particular question we'll focus on the basic elements of e-shift as it relates to up-scaling 2K HD video sources. Please find the FAQ that explains of how e-shift functions to project native 4K video sources.

The e-Shift process does not simply double up the same 1920x1080 frame to create a 3840x2160 frame. It’s got impressive sophistication and intelligence to the upscaling. The process involves evaluating each 1920x1080 video frame using a correlation detection algorithm and then creating a new 3840x2160 video frame internally. During this process it enhances edge transitions, increases contrast in detailed areas, and nearly eliminates aliasing and stair-stepping. This enhanced 3840x2160 frame is then separated into two new 1920x1080 sub-frames, which are then alternately projected to the screen at 120Hz. The e-Shift device shifts the two unique sub-frames ½ pixel diagonally from each and the result is an image that has 3840x2160 (4K) precision. JVC e-Shift technology was co-developed with NHK Engineering Services. See the diagram below.


As you can see, the end projected image is a dual 2K images (which equals to 4 megapixels), e-shifted to fill in another 4 megapixels to make a fill rate of 8 megapixels. You still lose half (4 megapixels of the information).

If this were a 4K projector, JVC would just call it a 4K projector, not an e-shift 4k projector....

However, after all that said, anyone reading my comments without reading it in full context might think i have something against JVC.. I do not.. in fact, i think they do a good job, in fact a great job as best they can trying to emulate 4K and the picture quality is pretty darn good.. the point is, it's still not a 4K projector, and calling it that is either ignorance or plain out lying...


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post #3371 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
You can actually get company salesmen who know jack. A Brookstone salesman told me that their pico projector shows all the pixels that you input, and doesn't scale. He didn't actually know what scaling meant, so it can't do what he doesn't understand.

If that's the case, of course it's easy to find salesmen who will tell you a JVC will get you play too.

If my wife ever leaves me, I can always go for that Brookstone salesman who was hitting on me.
Of course, that applies to just about any product that you can buy. I am the type, that when I went somewhere to purchase a big ticket item, I almost always knew more about the item than the sales person.
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post #3372 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
This explains it.

http://alienryderflex.com/e-shift/

It's a form of interlacing. Like Full HD 1080p versus 1080i. .. E-shift isn't just two 1080p frames. But it isn't exactly the same as a single 2160p frame either
In your referenced source, he actually says "Now we have twice as many pixels (not four times as many)" .. ie. "2K" .. not "4K" but then goes on to imply that using "some very sophisticated algorithms", they are able to artificially create an "enhanced 2K" (my words not his) to create a user experience that is somewhere between just line doubling and "real 4K". So they are artificially creating pixels that may or may not be the same as what the source 4k signal is .. or what the creator intended. Not only that but is the e-shifted pixel a shifted copy of the original pixel; or is it a true pixel for that position that is extracted from the source? The latter would mean a "true 2K" image whereas the former would not actually give you any add'l content over 1080p.

Also, I don't agree with your interlacing analogy. My understanding is that interlacing does not alter the intended source content in any way .. every pixel is what the creator intended .. it just delivers each half of the resolution in separate points in time and your vision sees it the same as if the source was 1080p. It's not line doubling of 540 .. and it's not some artificial "interpolation" of a 540 signal which is what e-shift is trying to do .. albeit with 1080.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't produce a picture that's better than 1080 .. but to claim it's 4K is just plain wrong .. pseudo-4K might arguably be the closest description
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post #3373 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:31 PM
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In your referenced source, he actually says "Now we have twice as many pixels (not four times as many)" .. ie. "2K" .. not "4K" but then goes on to imply that using "some very sophisticated algorithms", they are able to artificially create an "enhanced 2K" (my words not his) to create a user experience that is somewhere between just line doubling and "real 4K". So they are artificially creating pixels that may or may not be the same as what the source 4k signal is .. or what the creator intended. Not only that but is the e-shifted pixel a shifted copy of the original pixel; or is it a true pixel for that position that is extracted from the source? The latter would mean a "true 2K" image whereas the former would not actually give you any add'l content over 1080p.

Also, I don't agree with your interlacing analogy. My understanding is that interlacing does not alter the intended source content in any way .. every pixel is what the creator intended .. it just delivers each half of the resolution in separate points in time and your vision sees it the same as if the source was 1080p. It's not line doubling of 540 .. and it's not some artificial "interpolation" of a 540 signal which is what e-shift is trying to do .. albeit with 1080.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't produce a picture that's better than 1080 .. but to claim it's 4K is just plain wrong .. pseudo-4K might arguably be the closest description

Thank you for clearing it all up...


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post #3374 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:32 PM
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That means ALL of the information that was there originally. It is not throwing anything away.
I was going to mention that isn't quite accurate. Coolgeek has the right explanation.

With E-shift given a 4K source, you get more than 1080p resolution put on screen, but less than a native 4K panel would show. Essentially you get a sort step between 1080p and 4K's worth of the original source resolution.
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post #3375 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:47 PM
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I digress, I got ahead of myself on that. What I meant is that in the current model they are using a 4K source file, not a 1080p file and upscaling it like before. This is what is referenced in the article before because until recently the JVC could not accept a 4K image. The end results will be less than the native 4K results would be, but you are still seeing 4K worth of resolution on screen, with some of the image being interpolated. But there is no "scaling" of a lower resolution file to a higher one unless you are using a 1080p file originally, just like you have in the Sony. But even at this point in time you are not getting true 1 to 1 pixel resolution with the Sony so by his definition it wouldn't even be a native 4K projector. Bring up a single pixel pattern and there are some pretty obvious artifacts.

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But I am tired of debating with obvious JVC fanboys..
I've been called a fanboy of many products in the past until the moment that I supplant that product with something else. I am a video fanboy, plain and simple. I've OWNED projectors from Dwin, Sony, Epson, BenQ, Planar, Marantz, and JVC. If there was something that outperformed the JVC in my viewing enviroment for what I want from an image, I'd own it. I wouldn't even hesitate for a second to replace the JVC in my room now with something that I felt threw a better image in my room. The same could be said for ANY of the equipment I use in my room. Blind loyalty to any brand is a ridiculous idea and since I have ZERO vested interest in the company it doesn't matter at all to me who does or doesn't like their product. Doesn't change my situation in the slightest.

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post #3376 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:56 PM
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Amazing. Simply amazing.
I step away for 5 hours (actually snoozing in an emergency room most of the time, diagnose acute U infection, no pain, just fever every night, massive IV dose of antibiotic and pills for the next 10 days).


What gives with you guys? E shift is nothing new. I am not going to explain it again, we all know.

Without a true 4K pixel display. you can't display a true 4K source on a one to one pixel basis. What JVC does is pretty damn good for using panels with only 1920 x 1080 pixels. Is it a 4K projector? Of course it isn't but it does display UHD input images in UHD to your eyes. There you go. i am dumb it is a 4K projector sort of. AV salespeople for the most part are not highly educated or even knowledgeable. Hopefully they are good at sales.


We know what the JVC is. Its good and a good compromise. We aren't going to change the AV sales force, that's why you should stick to who you trust and you know is honest and knowledgeable. Even then, such people will make mistakes.

Enough. I have said the last word and will beat down without remorse ANYONE who continues to post on this subject. Enough. Let's move on.

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post #3377 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by IanR View Post
In your referenced source, he actually says "Now we have twice as many pixels (not four times as many)" .. ie. "2K" .. not "4K" but then goes on to imply that using "some very sophisticated algorithms", they are able to artificially create an "enhanced 2K" (my words not his) to create a user experience that is somewhere between just line doubling and "real 4K". So they are artificially creating pixels that may or may not be the same as what the source 4k signal is .. or what the creator intended. Not only that but is the e-shifted pixel a shifted copy of the original pixel; or is it a true pixel for that position that is extracted from the source? The latter would mean a "true 2K" image whereas the former would not actually give you any add'l content over 1080p.

Also, I don't agree with your interlacing analogy. My understanding is that interlacing does not alter the intended source content in any way .. every pixel is what the creator intended .. it just delivers each half of the resolution in separate points in time and your vision sees it the same as if the source was 1080p. It's not line doubling of 540 .. and it's not some artificial "interpolation" of a 540 signal which is what e-shift is trying to do .. albeit with 1080.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it doesn't produce a picture that's better than 1080 .. but to claim it's 4K is just plain wrong .. pseudo-4K might arguably be the closest description
I suggest we do more of these eshift in the rs49 thread.
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post #3378 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 01:55 PM
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the new Nvidia beta update for the newer Nvidia video cards allows 3840x2160 over the HDMI 1.4 cable. For PC gaming, it's awesome! I have a decent rig and have been playing last years Tomb Raider, and at that resolution, it's awesome. So video and everything will work. I believe the work around was 4:2:0 but for gaming at least, I don't see any difference quality wise, but I do see a nice 60 fps.
How to deliver UltraHD 4K with 60fps from HTPC to projector if it about 100ft long?
For now for 1080P I can use HDMI over Cat5/6 extender but what about 4K60fps?
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post #3379 of 3605 Old 07-14-2014, 08:25 PM
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i so agree lets get on not talking any more about jvc comparing it ... eshift 2 3 4
lets move on.
Cannot wait for the new sony server, hope to see real 4k or is that ultra hd.
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post #3380 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:25 PM
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UPDATE FOR 600es at service center

So it arrived at the service center in Laredo, TX on June 27th. I called inn the following week and they say it indeed was defective and they have to replace the optical unit is what im told. I don't know if that's the same as the panel or what. Anyways, they now tell me the parts are on back order and have no time table for them to come in.

I have since been trying to get the unit replaced with a new unit b/c in my eyes the unit, although factory serviced, will never be new in my eyes. In my mind, I will always have a projector that has been torn apart on some techs bench. Its like buying a new Benz then it gets wrecked leaving the showroom. Even though Mercedes repairs it its still not the same. Meanwhile, SONY customer service has been nothing sort of HORRID. Ive had 2 phones in excess of an hour and 50 minutes and several over an hour. They keep transferring me around and around and I sit on hold for 30 minutes at a time then they say they cant help me and transfer me again. Allegedly no one has a supervisor to speak to nor do they possess the ability to replace my unit. Thank god for speaker phone and headsets. Several have been very rude and the I just dont care attitude.

So now I haven't had a PJ for over a month so I actually haven't even experienced my brand new theater I have in my new house. Lost 7 hours of my life ill never get back. Had people be very rude to me. Out $10ish with nothing to show for it. Spent my own $35 on shipping back to them and will likely end up with what in my mind is a USED projector I paid new money for.

Does anyone have an ideas?????? This thing had less then 4 hours on it when I sent it in. It hasn't exactly been used and abused. Just feels like one of those products thats always gonna have a problem. God forbid I have to go thru this process again. Honest to god I will NEVER buy anything Sony EVER again.
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post #3381 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:32 PM
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Talk to your dealer. There's no reason you should have to be person directly dealing with Sony. Your dealer should be able to have more pull to get you a new unit. I don't know your specific situation, but if the projector's been like this since day one, the unit you have was basically DOA and should be replaced not repaired.

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post #3382 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:38 PM
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well I did. He of said he called them and on Jan. 1 they changed their policy and they will only replace a projector within 60 days of when he got it from his distributor or direct shipped from Sony. It use to be within 30 days of when the end user received it. I called and Sony confirmed the same policy change. WHAT A HORRIBLE POLICY. so basically if a dealer has a unit for more then 2 months which I would think most do with something that expensive you are basically screwed and have to abide by the warranty process. Which if you haven't gathered by now from my earlier statements is dreadful!

If there are any dealers who could get this replaced for me you would have a customer for LIFE!

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post #3383 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:43 PM
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I'd be upset with my dealer then. If your dealer buys stock ahead of time they should be aware of Sony's policy and check each unit (like AVS does) for defects. How is it your fault that the dealer had it for more than 60 days? I think this is more your dealer's fault for not catching the defect than it is Sony's fault.

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post #3384 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:46 PM
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post #3385 of 3605 Old 07-15-2014, 07:53 PM
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I'd be upset with my dealer then. If your dealer buys stock ahead of time they should be aware of Sony's policy and check each unit (like AVS does) for defects. How is it your fault that the dealer had it for more than 60 days? I think this is more your dealer's fault for not catching the defect than it is Sony's fault.

I just saw your MASSIVE list of projectors just sell me one of yours. ha
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post #3386 of 3605 Old 07-16-2014, 12:23 AM
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well I did. He of said he called them and on Jan. 1 they changed their policy and they will only replace a projector within 60 days of when he got it from his distributor or direct shipped from Sony. It use to be within 30 days of when the end user received it. I called and Sony confirmed the same policy change. WHAT A HORRIBLE POLICY. so basically if a dealer has a unit for more then 2 months which I would think most do with something that expensive you are basically screwed and have to abide by the warranty process. Which if you haven't gathered by now from my earlier statements is dreadful!

If there are any dealers who could get this replaced for me you would have a customer for LIFE!

If you paid by CC try getting them involved. A doa unit should not be the customers responsibility. I also thought the ES line of PJ had some form of advanced swap program for these cases.



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post #3387 of 3605 Old 07-16-2014, 09:56 AM
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Who is your dealer? Your warranty starts the day of the sale. If its DOA you are entitled to a new one. You have options including a law suit against sony and your dealer. On the other hand getting it fixed for a defect something does not make it any less than a new unit. At the least, your dealer should arrange for a loaner at worst.

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post #3388 of 3605 Old 07-16-2014, 02:02 PM
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Who is your dealer? Your warranty starts the day of the sale. If its DOA you are entitled to a new one. You have options including a law suit against sony and your dealer. On the other hand getting it fixed for a defect something does not make it any less than a new unit. at the lest, your dealer should arrange for a loaner at worst.
Yes warranty starts the day of the sale, but Sony's advanced replacement policy has changed. It is 60 days from the date the dealer places his order. The new policy was brought about because of abuse of the old policy. Some dealers were claiming to have sold old discontinued projectors at full MSRP and then using the advanced replacement policy. The new policy can easily create a problem for dealers. I think Sony should amend their policy back to 60 days from date of sale to a customer, but limit it to current year projectors. That way customers get taken care of properly and Sony does not get screwed, by dealers trying to take advantage of the system. Or at the very least, make it 30 days from date of sale to the customer and only good for current year models.

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post #3389 of 3605 Old 07-16-2014, 02:06 PM
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well I did. He of said he called them and on Jan. 1 they changed their policy and they will only replace a projector within 60 days of when he got it from his distributor or direct shipped from Sony. It use to be within 30 days of when the end user received it. I called and Sony confirmed the same policy change. WHAT A HORRIBLE POLICY. so basically if a dealer has a unit for more then 2 months which I would think most do with something that expensive you are basically screwed and have to abide by the warranty process. Which if you haven't gathered by now from my earlier statements is dreadful!

If there are any dealers who could get this replaced for me you would have a customer for LIFE!
The dealer should be the one getting with Sony to get your projector fixed and you should not be paying for shipping of your projector, if problem was brought to your dealers attention within the first 30 days.

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post #3390 of 3605 Old 07-16-2014, 08:05 PM
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Mike. If the dealer orders and Sony takes 60 days to ship, then that means there is no replacement period. Despite what Sony might be saying, I think various provisions of the UCC would come into play. delivery of a DOA product is not fulfillment by Sony of the dealer's order and delivery of same by the dealer to the consumer would not be fulfillment of the customer's order. A lawyer would have a field day and could probably end up with punitive damages if the manufacturer refused to replace a DOA with a new unit. There are a variety of lemon laws out there and Sony and their dealers cannot exempt themselves from their application.

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