Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 124 - AVS Forum
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post #3691 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You can only do 3D with 1080p IIRC. So if you're feeding the 600ES with a 4K input, 3D will be unavailable. You'll need to have the projector do the upscaling if you want to do 3D.
That's probably it! I'll give that a try tonight.

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post #3692 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:22 PM
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I am totally lost at this. Especially SD programming looks really bad on this PJ. Have a look at the attached photos. What is going on? Check out the jaggies and smearing of the details. It seems that even if I turn off all video processing, the PJ is applying some amount of video processing. Is there any way to improve the image? Does anyone know? I've never seen these artifacts on my old VPL-VW60. Just the picture was darker on that one.
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post #3693 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:25 PM
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More examples of 1080i HD...jaggies and detail smearing. Is this normal?
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post #3694 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
So I bit the bullet. My dealer offered me a price that I could not refuse. So I'm now the proud owner of a new VPL-VW500ES. The manufacturing date is 04/2014 and the software version is 1.006.

So far I installed it and watched some material with default settings, mostly on Cinema Film 1. I also changed the lamp setting to 'Low' for all image presets, as the image was too bright. Even so, it lights the entire room like a light bulb was on and the furniture becomes a little distracting.

Blu-ray material looks excellent, I think. However, SD material is terrible: lots of jagged edges and horizontal lines (the latter especially on 1080i). But what bothers me the most is the way this PJ displays the OSD menus from other equipment. The two photos I attached are taken from the PJ and from my TC-P65ZT60 TV. Look at the letters from the PJ in the first image: their edges are jagged, they appear out of focus and they look like being smeared. In the second image, the letters appear very well defined and crisp on the Panasonic TV. Also, my old VPL-VW60 was not doing this and the letters on the screen looked very crisp. What is going on? Is there a setting on this PJ that needs to be changed/adjusted?

Thanks.
Do you have the reality creation turned on? remember it is scaling to a native 4K panel so some OSD menus may affected. Most BD content should look excellent.
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post #3695 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:27 PM
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What is sharpness and RC set at?
Looks like enhancement of some kind.
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post #3696 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:36 PM
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The new firmware update to version 1.1 is up on the german and uk sony pro sites for the 500ES. It has a new menu option to reduce input lag (among some other useful additions). With the 1.006 firmware I measured 1080p@60 input lag at 116.2ms (top), 120ms (middle) and 124.4ms (bottom). With the 1.1 firmware and input lag reduction turned on I measured the input lag as 33.8ms (top), 35ms (middle) and 38ms (bottom). This good news for gamers as the 500ES/600ES now has the lowest lag among all sxrd/dila projectors (some DLPs clock in at about 20-24ms). Turning on the input lag reduction does disable motionflow, NR and MPEG NR. After casual inspection no loss in image quality and reality creation still works.
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post #3697 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
I am very bothered though by the way it renders and displays on-screen menus. It looks horrible. Why?
Just curious, do you have it set to 3840 or 4096 pixels?
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post #3698 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
The new firmware update to version 1.1 is up on the german and uk sony pro sites for the 500ES. It has a new menu option to reduce input lag (among some other useful additions). With the 1.006 firmware I measured 1080p@60 input lag at 116.2ms (top), 120ms (middle) and 124.4ms (bottom). With the 1.1 firmware and input lag reduction turned on I measured the input lag as 33.8ms (top), 35ms (middle) and 38ms (bottom). This good news for gamers as the 500ES/600ES now has the lowest lag among all sxrd/dila projectors (some DLPs clock in at about 20-24ms). Turning on the input lag reduction does disable motionflow, NR and MPEG NR. After casual inspection no loss in image quality and reality creation still works.
wow that is great news for 500/600 owners! thanks for the info
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post #3699 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 05:56 PM
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A couple more...
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post #3700 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 07:44 PM
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I just updated it to V1.1 so I will have a game of COD and see how the lag goes this time.

I will be installing my AV2 in my rack soon and have it operating on my TP and iPad so looking forward to the Crestron integration.
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post #3701 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Do you have the reality creation turned on? remember it is scaling to a native 4K panel so some OSD menus may affected. Most BD content should look excellent.
Reality Creation was turned on by default. After a while, I turned it off. It did not make any difference to the OSD menus or SD picture but made the HD picture look less digital and more film-like.
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post #3702 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post
What is sharpness and RC set at?
Looks like enhancement of some kind.
Mostly default settings but I turned off the Reality Creation and Motion Flow and reduced sharpness from 30 to 10. The latter made a small difference to HD images but they still look like being digitally processed. There's like a layer of fine digital noise overlaying the image and giving it a smeard effect. I'm thinking maybe the 'noise' was present on my VPL-VW60, too, but perhaps I was not seeing it due to the dimness of that PJ.

However, the SD images and the OSD look horrible.
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post #3703 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:31 PM
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Are you referring to sd as your cable/satellite hd?
May be compression.
Reminds me of Dish Network in some of your pics. However that would not explain the jaggies on the menu.
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post #3704 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:31 PM
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If the OSD is being effected then there's something else enabled that is causing the issues you're seeing. It does look like some type of oversharpening going on. Turn sharpness down to 0 and see if that changes anything. Double check and make sure that RC is definitely disabled. It looks like edge enhancement/ringing in your photos.
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post #3705 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Just curious, do you have it set to 3840 or 4096 pixels?
I'm still new to this projector and I have not found this setting yet. However, I can tell you that out of the box 1080p, 16:9 sources scale vertically to 2160 and horizontally to 3840. I zoomed the image so that it covers my 16:9 screen vertically but, in this case, 4096 sources will be wider than the screen.
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post #3706 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post
Are you referring to sd as your cable/satellite hd?
May be compression.
Reminds me of Dish Network in some of your pics. However that would not explain the jaggies on the menu.
Yes, it was satellite and OTA TV. However, I was not getting these jaggies on my VPL-VW60. And the menus looked very nice on that PJ.
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post #3707 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
I'm still new to this projector and I have not found this setting yet. However, I can tell you that out of the box 1080p, 16:9 sources scale vertically to 2160 and horizontally to 3840. I zoomed the image so that it covers my 16:9 screen vertically but, in this case, 4096 sources will be wider than the screen.
Under the zoom or aspect settings, you will find among others, normal, 1.85, 2.35. Normal will give you 3840 x 2160. The other two will give you 4096 x 2160. The normal setting will give you the sharpest image from a scaling point of view and the cleanest scaling, a whole number multiplier of 2.

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post #3708 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If the OSD is being effected then there's something else enabled that is causing the issues you're seeing. It does look like some type of oversharpening going on. Turn sharpness down to 0 and see if that changes anything. Double check and make sure that RC is definitely disabled. It looks like edge enhancement/ringing in your photos.
Here are two more photographs:

(i) The first one had RC turned On (Datatbase Normal, Resolution 50, Noise Filtering 20) and Sharpness at 30; and
(ii) The scone one had RC turned Off and Sharpness at Min.

There is an improvement in the second photo but there still is, I think, quite a bit of image processing with everything off.
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It's also showing a lot of jaggies on diagonal lines (from the HQV Silicom Optix HD HQV Benchmark HD DVD disc) and other on-screen visual inspections.
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From the many tests patterns that I watched as well as video and film material, for the most natural, film-like look, I think the following settings would be best:

RC - Off
Motionflow - Off
Sharpness - 10 (just a tad)
NR - Off
MPEG NR - Off

Even so, apparently there's still some video processing happening, but I think these settings produce the most natural image.

From looking at all kind of resolution test patterns, only with the above settings various artifacts are minimised, especially those appearing at the high definition lines.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to experiment with the various RC settings, but I haven't done this yet.

What do you guys (experts, not like me) think?
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post #3711 of 3828 Old 10-05-2014, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Under the zoom or aspect settings, you will find among others, normal, 1.85, 2.35. Normal will give you 3840 x 2160. The other two will give you 4096 x 2160. The normal setting will give you the sharpest image from a scaling point of view and the cleanest scaling, a whole number multiplier of 2.
Aha! Thanks, Mark.
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post #3712 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 07:23 AM
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I was under the false impression that RC was a new technology developed by Sony specifically for 4k upscaling. But this morning I remembered my first HDTV which was a Sony KV-40XBR800 - big and heavy 40 inch CRT TV. That unit also had a feature called Digital Reality Creation (DRC) which allowed the adjustment of "the level of detail (Reality) and smoothness (Clarity). These seem to be similar to the RC controls on our VPL-VW500/600ES (Resolution and Noise Filtering). Check out page 65 of the Operating Instructions here:

https://docs.sony.com/release/KV40XBR800.pdf

On that TV, after lots of testing, I reached the conclusion that the DRC feature should better be left at its minimum settings. It appears to me now that RC should also be set to off on the PJ, for minimal digital image manipulation.

Comments, suggestions, critique?...
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post #3713 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
The new firmware update to version 1.1 is up on the german and uk sony pro sites for the 500ES.
Fantastic! Given that the hardware is supposedly identical between the 500 and 600, is this firmware safe to install on the 600ES, or do 600ES owners need to wait for firmware on the US support site?
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post #3714 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:11 AM
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New artifact: vertical black bar

I've had my VW600ES for about six months. Recently, I am seeing a new artifact. When the screen is black, I see a darker black bar running top to bottom down the middle of the screen. (It is not perfectly centered, but pretty close to the center. It is perhaps 1/8 or 1/10 as wide as the screen.) The rest of the screen is only dark gray in comparison.

This seems related to the dynamic iris. With the iris disabled, there is no black bar and the screen is uniformly dark gray. With the iris at limited or full, I see the black bar.

This is only visible when the screen is almost completely black, as occurs in fades between movie scenes and between commercials and TV shows. It is annoying. I never noticed this until about a week ago. I've tried tweaking settings with no success.

Is something wrong with my iris? Any other ideas?
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post #3715 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:26 AM
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I think the artifact is not the darker black bar but rather the rest of the screen which is not as dark. I doubt its a mechanical iris thing, but an electronic thing. Put up a 0 IRE pattern full screen. Set the iris to manual minimum opening. Use that as your reference black. No engage the dynamic iris. Is the dark bar as black as the reference or is it the same or less dark. Same question as to the parts of the screen not occupied by the bar.

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post #3716 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
From the many tests patterns that I watched as well as video and film material, for the most natural, film-like look, I think the following settings would be best:

RC - Off
Motionflow - Off
Sharpness - 10 (just a tad)
NR - Off
MPEG NR - Off

Even so, apparently there's still some video processing happening, but I think these settings produce the most natural image.

From looking at all kind of resolution test patterns, only with the above settings various artifacts are minimised, especially those appearing at the high definition lines.

Perhaps it might be worthwhile to experiment with the various RC settings, but I haven't done this yet.

What do you guys (experts, not like me) think?

I've done some experimenting with my VW600, based on settings I gleaned off the VW600 owners thread. I don't notice a huge difference with Reality Creation on and set to resolution - 25, noise filtering - 10, and general sharpening - 10, over leaving RC off, when it comes to decent Blu Rays. I've tried Motion Flow on Combination - I don't like the motion compared to my Sim Lumis - going to try it on True Cinema and see how I like that.
" NR - Off, MPEG NR - Off " - I have these off too.


" I am totally lost at this. Especially SD programming looks really bad on this PJ. " - I'll be honest with you - the better the projector, the more ruthless it is exposing inferior source material. I can't watch any SD material of any kind. Not since I got my Lumis 5 1/2 years ago. Can't do it - not DVD's or TV. I have replaced all DVD's with HD DVD's followed by Blu Rays. Our Dish Hopper is set to only show HDTV channels. SD - forget about it.


I still prefer watching HDTV on my Lumis over the VW600. Looks cleaner, better picture, better motion. Blu Rays - the VW600 wins by a nose.

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post #3717 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:50 AM
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Winning by a nose usually means a result determined by a photo finish.

A wine rating of winning by a nose though would me something different in the entirety.
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post #3718 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
I was under the false impression that RC was a new technology developed by Sony specifically for 4k upscaling. But this morning I remembered my first HDTV which was a Sony KV-40XBR800 - big and heavy 40 inch CRT TV. That unit also had a feature called Digital Reality Creation (DRC) which allowed the adjustment of "the level of detail (Reality) and smoothness (Clarity). These seem to be similar to the RC controls on our VPL-VW500/600ES (Resolution and Noise Filtering). Check out page 65 of the Operating Instructions here:

https://docs.sony.com/release/KV40XBR800.pdf

On that TV, after lots of testing, I reached the conclusion that the DRC feature should better be left at its minimum settings. It appears to me now that RC should also be set to off on the PJ, for minimal digital image manipulation.

Comments, suggestions, critique?...
Turning off reality creation completely is not a very good idea. The 500/600ES resorts to (or something very close to) point sampling with reality creation turned off when upscaling 1080p to UHD or 4K. This is a crude algorithm that essentially just repeats pixel values to upscale and without filtering just mimics a lower res HD display. Sony most likely did this, so that RC looks much better when doing an on/off comparison. Reality Creation in it's current incarnation is actually a pretty decent upscaling algorithm (see other posts in this thread with links to comparison pictures) - I would advise keeping it turned on, albeit on very low levels (e.g. resolution 5 / noise filtering 0). The alternative would be to use an external scaler to upscale HD to UHD or 4K - some people prefer that to the RC "look".

In regard to the pictures you posted, I cannot say much as I do not have the material as reference. BUT, I also came from the VW60 and as the 500ES is much brighter, has more contrast, and is much much sharper (even without RC) I would consider that it amplifies the limitations of the source material. I checked a vast number of test patterns, different sources, reference pictures etc. and I did not find that the 500ES introduced more jaggies than the VW60 - it just shows the compression artifacts and source resolution much clearer. Maybe something else is wrong in your case? It would be helpful if you use a pc with a testpattern picture and post both the screenshot and the original testpattern (gif, png or something).

You also have to keep in mind that the digital sub-pixel panel alignment is preset at the factory and active by default. Many of the artifacts with high-res testpatterns stem from this sub-pixel panel alignment correction. Overall it usually does more good than harm (it typically does most harm on testpatterns, and most good on real world images). AFAIK (firmware v1.006) it cannot really turned off easily in the user menus - all settings there just add to the factory preset. Have to recheck this with firmware 1.1.
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post #3719 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
Turning off reality creation completely is not a very good idea. The 500/600ES resorts to (or something very close to) point sampling with reality creation turned off when upscaling 1080p to UHD or 4K. This is a crude algorithm that essentially just repeats pixel values to upscale and without filtering just mimics a lower res HD display. Sony most likely did this, so that RC looks much better when doing an on/off comparison. Reality Creation in it's current incarnation is actually a pretty decent upscaling algorithm (see other posts in this thread with links to comparison pictures) - I would advise keeping it turned on, albeit on very low levels (e.g. resolution 5 / noise filtering 0). The alternative would be to use an external scaler to upscale HD to UHD or 4K - some people prefer that to the RC "look".

In regard to the pictures you posted, I cannot say much as I do not have the material as reference. BUT, I also came from the VW60 and as the 500ES is much brighter, has more contrast, and is much much sharper (even without RC) I would consider that it amplifies the limitations of the source material. I checked a vast number of test patterns, different sources, reference pictures etc. and I did not find that the 500ES introduced more jaggies than the VW60 - it just shows the compression artifacts and source resolution much clearer. Maybe something else is wrong in your case? It would be helpful if you use a pc with a testpattern picture and post both the screenshot and the original testpattern (gif, png or something).
Sony has used the term RC for many many years. Would respect to its use currently with respect to its enhancement of 4K upscaling after the upscaling it is indeed a new technology.

RC is not a scaling alg. It is applied after the upscaling alg.

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post #3720 of 3828 Old 10-06-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojodyne View Post
Turning off reality creation completely is not a very good idea. The 500/600ES resorts to (or something very close to) point sampling with reality creation turned off when upscaling 1080p to UHD or 4K. This is a crude algorithm that essentially just repeats pixel values to upscale and without filtering just mimics a lower res HD display. Sony most likely did this, so that RC looks much better when doing an on/off comparison. Reality Creation in it's current incarnation is actually a pretty decent upscaling algorithm (see other posts in this thread with links to comparison pictures) - I would advise keeping it turned on, albeit on very low levels (e.g. resolution 5 / noise filtering 0). The alternative would be to use an external scaler to upscale HD to UHD or 4K - some people prefer that to the RC "look".

In regard to the pictures you posted, I cannot say much as I do not have the material as reference. BUT, I also came from the VW60 and as the 500ES is much brighter, has more contrast, and is much much sharper (even without RC) I would consider that it amplifies the limitations of the source material. I checked a vast number of test patterns, different sources, reference pictures etc. and I did not find that the 500ES introduced more jaggies than the VW60 - it just shows the compression artifacts and source resolution much clearer. Maybe something else is wrong in your case? It would be helpful if you use a pc with a testpattern picture and post both the screenshot and the original testpattern (gif, png or something).

You also have to keep in mind that the digital sub-pixel panel alignment is preset at the factory and active by default. Many of the artifacts with high-res testpatterns stem from this sub-pixel panel alignment correction. Overall it usually does more good than harm (it typically does most harm on testpatterns, and most good on real world images). AFAIK (firmware v1.006) it cannot really turned off easily in the user menus - all settings there just add to the factory preset. Have to recheck this with firmware 1.1.

I watched Skyfall with RC turned off. I thought it looked as sharp and crisp and good as I've ever seen it on my Lumis ( except for motion ). That said, I turned RC back on recently.

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Last edited by Craig Peer; 10-06-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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