Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 133 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
It definitely was a Black Diamond electric, but from what you are saying, it might have been the 0.8 gain.
Would a low gain hotspot that badly? From the seating position the middle was very bright and the edges and corners were dark. Typical vignetting like in the old photographs. It was a very 'directional' screen.
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Old 11-26-2014, 07:48 AM
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Would a low gain hotspot that badly? From the seating position the middle was very bright and the edges and corners were dark. Typical vignetting like in the old photographs. It was a very 'directional' screen.

If the throw is too short it certainly will. The 0.8 gain requires 1.5 screen widths minimum and I would not use the minimum.

Added
Actually the screen is most likely not a low gain, even though it ends up being a low gain screen by the final number. It depends on where it's starting point is. If it started at .5 gain and then by the time SI is done with their process, it moves the gain up to .8, then that is a 160% increase in gain. Same goes for the Stewart FireHawk. Everyone thinks of it as low gain, since it is 1.1, but it also requires a 1.5 screen width throw. The FireHawk starts at something like 0.8 gain base and then optical coating are applied to bring the gain up to 1.1.

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Old 11-26-2014, 09:53 AM
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Would a low gain hotspot that badly? From the seating position the middle was very bright and the edges and corners were dark. Typical vignetting like in the old photographs. It was a very 'directional' screen.

That doesn't sound like it was set up correctly. I think Mike hit the nail on the head.

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Old 11-26-2014, 10:40 AM
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That doesn't sound like it was set up correctly. I think Mike hit the nail on the head.
I remember, years ago when I was testing screen samples for my first Sony projector (VPL-VW50 - the Pearl), that I saw this high directionality from two Stewart grey screens. I believe it was the Firehawk G3 (?) - not sure - but one of them was specifically designed for the Pearl projector (SST?). Due to strong hotspotting, I decided they were not suitable for my HT - 133 inch diagonal, 16:9 format, 15 feet throw, seating at 12 feet - and went with Da-Lite Cinema Vision (and later with the HD Progressive 1.3). I am pretty happy with my current screen but what I saw Saturday - intense hotspotting and horrendous sparkling - reminded me that grey screens may not work for certain application. It was certainly looking bad at that dealer and did not present the 1100ES in a good light (pun intended).
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
I remember, years ago when I was testing screen samples for my first Sony projector (VPL-VW50 - the Pearl), that I saw this high directionality from two Stewart grey screens. I believe it was the Firehawk G3 (?) - not sure - but one of them was specifically designed for the Pearl projector (SST?). Due to strong hotspotting, I decided they were not suitable for my HT - 133 inch diagonal, 16:9 format, 15 feet throw, seating at 12 feet - and went with Da-Lite Cinema Vision (and later with the HD Progressive 1.3). I am pretty happy with my current screen but what I saw Saturday - intense hotspotting and horrendous sparkling - reminded me that grey screens may not work for certain application. It was certainly looking bad at that dealer and did not present the 1100ES in a good light (pun intended).
The wrong screen / screen set up does a good projector a complete disservice.

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Old 11-26-2014, 01:49 PM
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As has been stated, the color of the screen does not have much to do with anything under discussion here. The gain of a screen is simply the multiplication process of the various gain layers the screen consists of. with a non white screen and in effect many white screens, the gain of the substrate layer is less than unity (Unity is one). Gain layers can be printed on or spayed on. The best screen material out there for a non acoustically transparent screen PQ wise is in my opinion Stewart Snomatt 100. The substrate material for this screen is just under 1.0 and a very tiny amount of gain material is sprayed on this fabric to bring it up to one. Even for this material, a minimum throw distance should be about 1.25. For screen like Studeotec130, the sprayed on gain is about 1.3 and a throw minimum is 1.3. more is better. For screen materials where the substrate material is substantially less than 1.0, the final gain divided by the substrate gain will closely approximate the sprayed on gain. The sprayed on gain will represent the minimum throw multiplier. let's take Firehawk G3 or LS. The final gain is about 1.25 and the substrate gain is about. 0.8. conservatively, a minimum throw for this material is 1.6. the new firehawk has a gain of 1.1 and starts with a 0.8 gain substrate. Conservatively this gives a minimum throw multiplier of 1.4.




Why is any of this? It has to do with the angle of the light coming from the projector lens and hitting the screen. this angle is not constant of course but depends on a variety of factors. The longer the throw multiplier one uses for set up, the less the worst case angle will be. In olden days, commercial theaters were much longer than they were wide and the projector was mounted in the rear. High gain screens were and are still used. No problem with long throws.


For home use, err on the long side to minimize screen material induced artifacts.


All this of course is for angular reflective screens. Retro reflective screens, the only real example is Da-lite HP of whatever gain and rebranded uses of this material. Throw is not really relevant though this material has its own weaknesses which thankfully most don't see because they are happily blinded by the light.




The screen industry has become like the older days of speaker manufacturing. Anyone can easily enter the screen manufacturing business without knowing very much. Many screen manufacturing companies do not specify very much re the fabrics they use and recommended minimum throws.

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Old 11-27-2014, 01:34 AM
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Mark, I am assuming that, since the screen diagonal subtends the largest projection angle, the minimum throw distance ratio relates to the diagonal. In other words, the throw ratio equals the throw distance divided by the screen diagonal. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What would then be the minimum throw distance ratio for my screen, the Da-Lite HD Progressive 1.3? It's a white screen so it should also be 1.3. In this case, for my 133 inch diagonal screen, the minimum throw distance would be 133 x 1.3 = 173 inches, or 14.4 feet. My throw distance, measured from the front lens of the 500ES is 15.3 feet. So I'm just okay. I actually see some mild hotspotting on the screen but it's nothing too bothersome.

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All this of course is for angular reflective screens. Retro reflective screens, the only real example is Da-lite HP of whatever gain and rebranded uses of this material. Throw is not really relevant though this material has its own weaknesses which thankfully most don't see because they are happily blinded by the light.
You simply nailed it here dead on. I once evaluated a sample of Da-Lite HP screen fabric and I hated it. It reminded me of traffic signage when driving at night. Also, for best results one would have to hold the projector in their arms.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:35 AM
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Finally got my 500es installed. Shooting onto a gain 0,05 dark fabric wall at the moment! Waiting on screen delivery:-)

The projector itself is very good looking I think. Can't wait to watch the first movie. Using downtime to set up my htpc with some 4k eye candy.
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Old 11-28-2014, 01:24 PM
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I could not find the answer so hope someone can answer it here.

What is the ANSI contrast of this projector?
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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I could not find the answer so hope someone can answer it here.

What is the ANSI contrast of this projector?
Around 450:1.

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Old 11-28-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael9009 View Post
Mark, I am assuming that, since the screen diagonal subtends the largest projection angle, the minimum throw distance ratio relates to the diagonal. In other words, the throw ratio equals the throw distance divided by the screen diagonal. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What would then be the minimum throw distance ratio for my screen, the Da-Lite HD Progressive 1.3? It's a white screen so it should also be 1.3. In this case, for my 133 inch diagonal screen, the minimum throw distance would be 133 x 1.3 = 173 inches, or 14.4 feet. My throw distance, measured from the front lens of the 500ES is 15.3 feet. So I'm just okay. I actually see some mild hotspotting on the screen but it's nothing too bothersome.



You simply nailed it here dead on. I once evaluated a sample of Da-Lite HP screen fabric and I hated it. It reminded me of traffic signage when driving at night. Also, for best results one would have to hold the projector in their arms.



Throw distance first depends on the aspect ratio of the projection chip or chips. Here we are dealing with chips of 1.78 (rounded) aspect. However wide you project an image from such chip(s) on your screen (it makes no difference what the actual aspect ratio of the screen width is) is the dimension you multiply by the throw ratio to get the throw distance.

Or the throw distance divided by the image width gives the throw ratio. Assuming you are filling the screen width, the image width is 116 inches. Converting your throw distance to inches, the throw distance is 183.6 inches. 183.6 divided by 116 inches is about 1.58 or your throw ratio. That should be quite adequate for your screen material.

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Old 11-28-2014, 09:33 PM
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Throw distance first depends on the aspect ratio of the projection chip or chips. Here we are dealing with chips of 1.78 (rounded) aspect. However wide you project an image from such chip(s) on your screen (it makes no difference what the actual aspect ratio of the screen width is) is the dimension you multiply by the throw ratio to get the throw distance.

Or the throw distance divided by the image width gives the throw ratio. Assuming you are filling the screen width, the image width is 116 inches. Converting your throw distance to inches, the throw distance is 183.6 inches. 183.6 divided by 116 inches is about 1.58 or your throw ratio. That should be quite adequate for your screen material.
Thanks, Mark. I just wasn't sure if you used the screen width or the screen diagonal in your calculations.

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Old 11-28-2014, 09:52 PM
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Finally got my 500es installed. Shooting onto a gain 0,05 dark fabric wall at the moment! Waiting on screen delivery:-)

The projector itself is very good looking I think. Can't wait to watch the first movie. Using downtime to set up my htpc with some 4k eye candy.
You will love every minute when your screen is up.
Every person who has watched anything on mine can't believe the quality of the picture. Enjoy!

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Old 11-28-2014, 11:43 PM
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You will love every minute when your screen is up.
Every person who has watched anything on mine can't believe the quality of the picture. Enjoy!

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Unless yours will also have colour uniformity issues like all three units I had had.
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:22 AM
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Well who knows if you will ever have a problem. Mine has 493hrs on it now and apart from sometimes not finshing changing aspect ratios (about 1 in 40 tries) then it has been flawless so far.

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Old 11-29-2014, 01:17 AM
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You will love every minute when your screen is up.
Every person who has watched anything on mine can't believe the quality of the picture. Enjoy!

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Great, can't wait. Screen should arrive next week I hope.

I guess once I start calibrating I will see what imperfections my sample has. I am not not expecting some issues but hoping they are within acceptable tolerances. Blue convergence settles fast enough and is not far off on upstart so thats good I suppose. Infact convergence seems in the good end of the scale. Last PJ was a single chip DLP so I have been mentally preparing myself for 3 chip Lcos "issues".

Need a 4k pass through pre pro because 2 HDMI out of a htpc seems bit of a hazzle for the occasional 4k demo trailer:-)

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Old 11-29-2014, 06:33 PM
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Thanks, Mark. I just wasn't sure if you used the screen width or the screen diagonal in your calculations.
It is always based on width. I gave that information in a reply to one of your post (my post 3962), with calculations to show the minimum throw 17 posts back.

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Old 11-29-2014, 09:03 PM
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LOL. Translation. Ya big dummy, I told you that several posts ago.

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Old 11-30-2014, 10:00 AM
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It is always based on width. I gave that information in a reply to one of your post (my post 3962), with calculations to show the minimum throw 17 posts back.
Indeed, you did so. Thank you very much, Mike. This eliminates any confusion.
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:33 PM
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LOL. Translation. Ya big dummy, I told you that several posts ago.
Nope, just means, you must have missed it.

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Old 11-30-2014, 03:48 PM
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Watched " Hugo " with some friends last night, followed by the silent film from 1902 ( featured in Hugo ) " A Trip To The Moon " by Georges Méliès - totally fun movie! Looked excellent on my VW600 !!

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Old 11-30-2014, 04:09 PM
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Watched " Hugo " with some friends last night, followed by the silent film from 1902 ( featured in Hugo ) " A Trip To The Moon " by Georges Méliès - totally fun movie! Looked excellent on my VW600 !!
What happened to your Sim2 Lumis??
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Old 11-30-2014, 04:19 PM
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What happened to your Sim2 Lumis??
He still has it. Dual projectors!
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:18 AM
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I read in the forums here that one of the HDMI port on the 600ES is HDMI 2.0 while the other is just 1.4. Can someone tell me again, whether it's port 1 or two which is the 2.0?
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:01 AM
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I read in the forums here that one of the HDMI port on the 600ES is HDMI 2.0 while the other is just 1.4. Can someone tell me again, whether it's port 1 or two which is the 2.0?
Port #2 is HDMI 2.0.

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Old 12-01-2014, 06:10 AM
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Port #2 is HDMI 2.0.
Thanks...
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:59 AM
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Port #2 is HDMI 2.0.
Mike when hooking up the Sony 4k player, does sound and video go through the one HDMI 2.0 port, or do they use one for video and the second for sound?
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:04 AM
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Mike when hooking up the Sony 4k player, does sound and video go through the one HDMI 2.0 port, or do they use one for video and the second for sound?
HDMI carries both audio and video so just the one port should do it.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:09 AM
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The projector does not accept any audio, obviously it is a video display only. The Sony servers have two HDMI outs. The first sends out audio and video and the second is disabled. In the set up app you can enable the second HDMI and by doing so the audio is removed from the first HDMI out and is routed to the newly enabled HDMI 2. You send the first to your projector using HDMI input 2 on the projector and the audio from the server is sent to your receiver/processor etc. So HNMI out 1 on the server to HDMI 2 on the projector and HDMI 2 on the server to your audio system.


People have difficulty trying to enable the HDMI 2 on the server. Sony's instructions are not very clear here. On the app there are three horizontal bars, hit that and follow from there.

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Old 12-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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The projector does not accept any audio, obviously it is a video display only. The Sony servers have two HDMI outs. The first sends out audio and video and the second is disabled. In the set up app you can enable the second HDMI and by doing so the audio is removed from the first HDMI out and is routed to the newly enabled HDMI 2. You send the first to your projector using HDMI input 2 on the projector and the audio from the server is sent to your receiver/processor etc. So HNMI out 1 on the server to HDMI 2 on the projector and HDMI 2 on the server to your audio system.


People have difficulty trying to enable the HDMI 2 on the server. Sony's instructions are not very clear here. On the app there are three horizontal bars, hit that and follow from there.
Yea, total brain fart. I was rushing out the door and had just checked this thread. I really meant if running through an AVR. I didn't know if with the limited bandwidth of the early HDMI 2.0, if they were having to run audio through a separate HDMI. I seemed to remember maybe with the first Sony player, that wasn't HDMI 2.0 that you had to use two HDMI cables. I didn't know if that was still the case.

So, if you have a HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 capable receiver that will pass through or process 4k/UHD, would you just run one HDMI into the receiver and one HDMI out to the projector?

The reason I ask is that I will have multiple sources feeding the AVR/projector and am wondering if I have to have the direct connection between the Sony server and projector, which would seem hooking up blu-ray, Kscape, etc. difficult.
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