Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 4192 Old 12-08-2014, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The latest Onkyos only supports HDMI 2.0 Level B (10Gb/s). Anything above 4K @ 60p in 420 8 bits it won't pass.


You need an AVR supporting HDMI 2.0 Level A (full 18Gb/s HDMI 2.0 bandwidth) to pass-through higher bandwidth signals.


At the moment only the upcoming Denon X7200W (and Marantz 8802 pre-pro) supports both HDMI 2.0 Level A (standard like the rest of the 2014 D&M range) and HDCP 2.2 (through a hardware HDMI board upgrade coming in April 2015, only for the flagship models). All the other models are either limited to the lower HDMI 2.0 Level B bandwidth (same as HDMI 1.4 with just a single 4K 60P 420 8 bits profile added) or lack HDCP 2.2 protection support.


For fully compatible AVRs costing less than the D&M flagships, you have to wait until next year.
Manni, the 500ES doesn't do 18gbps either. When connected direct to the projector from the 4K player, it works just fine so the content isn't using anything more than 10 gbps. These were content Sony created for their 4K tv displays and I am sure they are not going to create content that their own display can't handle..

So, the problem only starts if it's connected to the Onkyo Receiver first.
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post #4052 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Manni, the 500ES doesn't do 18gbps either. When connected direct to the projector from the 4K player, it works just fine so the content isn't using anything more than 10 gbps. These were content Sony created for their 4K tv displays and I am sure they are not going to create content that their own display can't handle..

So, the problem only starts if it's connected to the Onkyo Receiver first.
True, I only wrote this because you were mentionning 18gb/s cables, I thought you were trying to get higher bandwidth content to the projector (which wouldn't take it either).

The Onkyos only have one input and one output that support HDCP 2.2. Forgot which, but are you sure the server is connected to the right input and the PJ to the right output on the Onkyo?
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post #4053 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
True, I only wrote this because you were mentionning 18gb/s cables, I thought you were trying to get higher bandwidth content to the projector (which wouldn't take it either).

The Onkyos only have one input and one output that support HDCP 2.2. Forgot which, but are you sure the server is connected to the right input and the PJ to the right output on the Onkyo?
It doesn't matter because the content we were playing doesn't have hdcp 2.2 protection. It's only Sony's demo clips, which when directly linked to their HDMI 1 on the projector which also doesn't have hdcp 2.2, it works fine. I believe it's looking more and more like an Onkyo issue.
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post #4054 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
It doesn't matter because the content we were playing doesn't have hdcp 2.2 protection. It's only Sony's demo clips, which when directly linked to their HDMI 1 on the projector which also doesn't have hdcp 2.2, it works fine. I believe it's looking more and more like an Onkyo issue.
You're probably right but it's worth a try IMHO just to rule it out. There might be something in the HDCP 2.2 protected in/out that will make it work with the Sony, as it's probably a different chipset driving these.


I've heard the Onkyos had lots of issues with 4K content anyway, so it's probably the AVR.
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post #4055 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You're probably right but it's worth a try IMHO just to rule it out. There might be something in the HDCP 2.2 protected in/out that will make it work with the Sony, as it's probably a different chipset driving these.


I've heard the Onkyos had lots of issues with 4K content anyway, so it's probably the AVR.
Actually, we already did try. We even try turning off Onkyo and only set it to pass thru, and even then it didn't work.
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post #4056 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 02:12 AM
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Actually, we already did try. We even try turning off Onkyo and only set it to pass thru, and even then it didn't work.
If you've already tried with cables longer than six feet and shorter than ten feet everywhere, then it's most likely the AVR.
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post #4057 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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LA Calibrator or enthusiast and resolution question

Hi Gents,

As one of the first owners of the VW600, I've had a good run with it as we approach the year mark. I had a couple of questions for the experts:

1) I have a 120" 2:35" Stewart Firehawk G4 with a throw distance of about 14' from lens to screen. I zoom for anamorphic. When I'm in 16:9, the picture is sharp, detailed and blows me away. When I zoom, I notice a drop in resolution in a lot of cases. It's mostly the detail. I watched the Desolation of Smaug yesterday in preparation for the premiere tonight and while it looked great, It did look a tad soft in places. I experience this with a lot of highly regarded blu-rays. My question is this. Is this due to my calibration settings, can this be fixed with tweaking, or is this a symptom of zooming? Would love to hear from others with a similar shorter throw distance and their experiences.

2) Does anyone here own a VW600, lives in LA and has mastered their home setup? Would love to chat with you!

Thanks as always.

Last edited by hwoarang; 12-09-2014 at 02:04 PM.
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post #4058 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hwoarang View Post
Hi Gents,

As one of the first owners of the VW600, I've had a good run with it as we approach the year mark. I had a couple of questions for the experts:

1) I have a 120" 2:35" Stewart Firehawk G4 with a throw distance of about 14' from lens to screen. I zoom for anamorphic. When I'm in 16:9, the picture is sharp, detailed and blows me away. When I zoom, I notice a drop in resolution in a lot of cases. It's mostly the detail. I watched the Desolation of Smaug yesterday in preparation for the premiere tonight and while it looked great, It did look a tad soft in places. I experience this with a lot of highly regarded blu-rays. My question is this. Is this due to my calibration settings, can this be fixed with tweaking, or is this a symptom of zooming? Would love to hear from others with a similar shorter throw distance and their experiences.

2) Does anyone here own a VW600, lives in LA and has mastered their home setup? Would love to chat with you!

Thanks as always.

What's your seating distance, how much lens shift are you using? My VW600 is exactly 14' from my 122" diagonal 16:9 screen and my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen ( they are about 5" apart ). I don't see any loss of sharpness at all zooming, but you are zooming a bit more I think. I basically go from 106" wide to 118" wide.

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post #4059 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 02:39 PM
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Thanks for the response Craig. Seating distance is 10' with our backs on the couch at 11'. As far as I know I'm only using vertical shift. The top of the viewable portion of the screen is at 74" and the center of the lens sits at 77.5" As far as I know, we aimed to have the center of the lens in line with the center of the screen so there isn't a need for horizontal shift. I didn't know how to reset the lens to center to double check but when I switch from 1:85 to 2:35 in lens memory the lens does adjust left to right a little....
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post #4060 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 03:42 PM
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Thanks for the response Craig. Seating distance is 10' with our backs on the couch at 11'. As far as I know I'm only using vertical shift. The top of the viewable portion of the screen is at 74" and the center of the lens sits at 77.5" As far as I know, we aimed to have the center of the lens in line with the center of the screen so there isn't a need for horizontal shift. I didn't know how to reset the lens to center to double check but when I switch from 1:85 to 2:35 in lens memory the lens does adjust left to right a little....

Shoot me an email and I'll send you the settings I'm using, gleaned off the forum here. Have you done the new firmware update ?

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post #4061 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 03:45 PM
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Shoot me an email and I'll send you the settings I'm using, gleaned off the forum here. Have you done the new firmware update ?
Haven't done the most recent update but did the 1st one. Did you notice a jump in quality? I'll email you now. Thanks for the offer!
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post #4062 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hwoarang View Post
Thanks for the response Craig. Seating distance is 10' with our backs on the couch at 11'. As far as I know I'm only using vertical shift. The top of the viewable portion of the screen is at 74" and the center of the lens sits at 77.5" As far as I know, we aimed to have the center of the lens in line with the center of the screen so there isn't a need for horizontal shift. I didn't know how to reset the lens to center to double check but when I switch from 1:85 to 2:35 in lens memory the lens does adjust left to right a little....
My VW500ES is close to what you have.
Throw distance (14ft) and seating (12ft) and I only use vertical shift too. My lens is at 77.25" and the top of the screen is at 76.5". No horizontal shift used.

Mine is on factory settings mostly. I just use low lamp and that's about it. I love the picture it throws. I haven't seen any issues with it as yet and I use it as my daily viewing source so it get's a lot of use.
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post #4063 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 04:38 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. I would never have expected one to run it at factory although I remember it being quite good out of the box. I've simply eyeball calibrated it. If I could get it sharper and more detailed I'd be happy. I have managed to get it looking really good and bright on low lamp with little need for high lamp, but when zooming I need a little more...
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post #4064 of 4192 Old 12-09-2014, 06:30 PM
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I think you sharpness issues are caused by two issues. One, the 500/600 lens/ may be problemative for two reasons. One you are operating when zoomed at a very close throw, tht it you are operating the lens at close to its widest angle and that is where the lens will be less sharp away from center. Second, the Sony lens performance drops off the farther the lens center is above screen top. Try shifting the image down a few inches, which would be the same as you lowering the lens center, and seeing if your softening at the extremes diminishes. You might also crank the R control on the RC up three or four clicks and increase what I call the C setting up a bit as may be necessary.

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post #4065 of 4192 Old 12-10-2014, 10:14 AM
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Mark. Those are awesome tips. I'll try both and see how it works. As others are at 14' I'm hoping lowering the projector will do the job. It looks fine when in 1:85 (zoomed out).
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post #4066 of 4192 Old 12-10-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WIKED View Post
My VW500ES is close to what you have.
Throw distance (14ft) and seating (12ft) and I only use vertical shift too. My lens is at 77.25" and the top of the screen is at 76.5". No horizontal shift used.

Mine is on factory settings mostly. I just use low lamp and that's about it. I love the picture it throws. I haven't seen any issues with it as yet and I use it as my daily viewing source so it get's a lot of use.

My lens is approximately 77.5" to dead center, and the top of the screen is 77" too.

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post #4067 of 4192 Old 12-10-2014, 12:59 PM
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Woah. We're remarkably close in setup. I'll lower the projector and see if that makes a difference. Any idea how to reset lens to dead center? I can't tell if I'm using horizontal shift or not..

I will have to raise and lower the projector each time I need to use it as it covers art work as its attached like this:
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post #4068 of 4192 Old 12-10-2014, 08:39 PM
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I advise everyone I have ever sold a Sony to or installed one for that it is important to mount the lens no higher than lens center at screen top and to go a tad lower if at all possible. Obviously, a half inch above screen top is only a minor deviation but going an inch or higher causes a visible problem for critical viewers. Some don't agree but with due respect I rule their observations as being from a non critical viewing perspective. Even other professionals who at first didn'y notice an image degradation have concluded that following my rule re Sonys is important if you want the best performance obtainable. Of course, if your eyes are not that good or you sit say 1.5 or longer screen widths away, you will probably not notice the softness at image corners.


As for re centering the image on the lens exit glass, simply look back from close side at the lens and you can see the image edges on the glass. You can measure using say a soft measuring tape or say a piece of papper with 1/8 rulings penciled on. Its easy to get it very close to center this way. Hope this helps.

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post #4069 of 4192 Old 12-10-2014, 10:33 PM
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Amazing. Thank you Mark. I believe this minor difference could be creating th degradation I'm experiencing. If I sat 6"-1' further back, I may not need it, but then why did I get such a huge arse screen for? Really appreciate the insight and expertise from you and everyone else. Cheers.
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post #4070 of 4192 Old 12-11-2014, 01:27 PM
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Read through all 136 pages, and I have learned a lot. I do have a question and did not see any response dealing with this subject directly (at least not noticed to)
My current HT is:
- Oppo 105D
- Sony VPL50 perl
- ISCO III + sled


- and a 2:35-1 SMX acoustically transparent screen


-


Now when I watch 2:35-1 blu-rays I slide my ISCO II into place and using the Oppo Vertical stretch function (in the oppo, this function does not exist in the projector) and all is fine I see wonderful 2:35-1 images. -- this is at 1080p/24 of course


What would happen if (and right now I do not own a 4k project, I am considering purchasing one -- so I cannot test this) if I press on my oppo to scale to 4k -- now the image being sent to a 'project, let's assume will be a 500ES Sony 4k' and I have the oppo doing the scaling , not the projector, and I press the stretch button on my 105d what happens?


With my current setup this stretches my projector does not care what I send it -- meaning 1080p not stretched or 1080p stretched this is still a 1080p signal just one has more pixels used on my projector chips. what would happen if I am sending a 4k signal at 30fps which I assume the oppo does when it is sending 4k upscaling, I cannot find anything in my oppo manual that says vertical stretch does not work in 4k mode? or am I missing something completely? I cannot test this for myself since I have not purchased the 4k projector yet, most of what I read only here not the 'projector' doing the stretch, I am asking what happens if the stretch is done at the oppo? or is this button / function disabled in 4k mode? anyone try this -- I am sure many have, just did not see any one report -- no this does not work or nothing happens?
I am curious to see what happens will help me decide if I really should sell or keep my ISCO III lens if any when I purchase a 4k projector?


thank you
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post #4071 of 4192 Old 12-11-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by charles2006 View Post
Read through all 136 pages, and I have learned a lot. I do have a question and did not see any response dealing with this subject directly (at least not noticed to)
My current HT is:
- Oppo 105D
- Sony VPL50 perl
- ISCO III + sled


- and a 2:35-1 SMX acoustically transparent screen


-


Now when I watch 2:35-1 blu-rays I slide my ISCO II into place and using the Oppo Vertical stretch function (in the oppo, this function does not exist in the projector) and all is fine I see wonderful 2:35-1 images. -- this is at 1080p/24 of course


What would happen if (and right now I do not own a 4k project, I am considering purchasing one -- so I cannot test this) if I press on my oppo to scale to 4k -- now the image being sent to a 'project, let's assume will be a 500ES Sony 4k' and I have the oppo doing the scaling , not the projector, and I press the stretch button on my 105d what happens?


With my current setup this stretches my projector does not care what I send it -- meaning 1080p not stretched or 1080p stretched this is still a 1080p signal just one has more pixels used on my projector chips. what would happen if I am sending a 4k signal at 30fps which I assume the oppo does when it is sending 4k upscaling, I cannot find anything in my oppo manual that says vertical stretch does not work in 4k mode? or am I missing something completely? I cannot test this for myself since I have not purchased the 4k projector yet, most of what I read only here not the 'projector' doing the stretch, I am asking what happens if the stretch is done at the oppo? or is this button / function disabled in 4k mode? anyone try this -- I am sure many have, just did not see any one report -- no this does not work or nothing happens?
I am curious to see what happens will help me decide if I really should sell or keep my ISCO III lens if any when I purchase a 4k projector?


thank you
Charles2006
I am not aware of any device that does vertical stretch for 4K. The long waited 4K (input/output) Lumagen should be able to do this, once it becomes available.

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post #4072 of 4192 Old 12-11-2014, 02:48 PM
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I am not aware of any device that does vertical stretch for 4K. The long waited 4K (input/output) Lumagen should be able to do this, once it becomes available.

So if I understand you correctly, if I press the 'resolution button on my 105D' which changes / engages the 4k upscaling, i see a picture through a given projector, if I then press the 'stretch button' on my remote of the oppo 105D nothing will happen? correct? someone has physically done this right? Unfortunately i do not see anything noting this in my oppo manual, i think i will call oppo and ask.


thank you
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post #4073 of 4192 Old 12-11-2014, 06:56 PM
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I will have to raise and lower the projector each time I need to use it as it covers art work as its attached like this:
Like how?
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post #4074 of 4192 Old 12-11-2014, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles2006 View Post
So if I understand you correctly, if I press the 'resolution button on my 105D' which changes / engages the 4k upscaling, i see a picture through a given projector, if I then press the 'stretch button' on my remote of the oppo 105D nothing will happen? correct? someone has physically done this right? Unfortunately i do not see anything noting this in my oppo manual, i think i will call oppo and ask.


thank you
Charles2006
I am talking about 4K, not up-converting 1080P. There is no device made that will take a native 4K signal and vertically stretch it for an A-lens. At least not yet.

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post #4075 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 06:26 AM
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I am talking about 4K, not up-converting 1080P. There is no device made that will take a native 4K signal and vertically stretch it for an A-lens. At least not yet.
Unfortunately this still does not answer my question, I understand the projector will not stretch true 4k signal. I am speaking of the oppo itself, what happens if you press the stretch /zoom button while in up-scaled resolution, there is nothing in the manual that says this is disabled or when using up-scaled sent to a display device it will not permit stretch button -- usually manuals note 'exceptions' I do not see one in my oppo manual.


When up-scaled I think the oppo sends UHD resolution not true 4k (res that would match the sony panel itself) but none the less I am curious no one here has any oppo 103/103d/105/105d that can upscale and press the stretch button, you do not of course need a lens to see what happens -- does it stretch?


Appreciate any comments...I am trying to decide should I sell or keep my isco iii lens.


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post #4076 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 06:50 AM
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Not to derail this conversation, but wouldn't the HDMI handshake between the Oppo, the SSP and the projector sort all that out and preserve the maximum resolution, color depth and frame rate the projector is capable of producing? Seems pretty cut and dry, actually.

That being said, I would think if you are upscaling in the Oppo and the Oppo is sending a 3840x2160 pixel image to a native 4K projector. The question is will the Oppo vertically stretch this upscaled 4K image. My guess is no, but have you considered posing your question directly to Oppo tech support and posting your findings here???
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post #4077 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by charles2006 View Post
Unfortunately this still does not answer my question, I understand the projector will not stretch true 4k signal. I am speaking of the oppo itself, what happens if you press the stretch /zoom button while in up-scaled resolution, there is nothing in the manual that says this is disabled or when using up-scaled sent to a display device it will not permit stretch button -- usually manuals note 'exceptions' I do not see one in my oppo manual.


When up-scaled I think the oppo sends UHD resolution not true 4k (res that would match the sony panel itself) but none the less I am curious no one here has any oppo 103/103d/105/105d that can upscale and press the stretch button, you do not of course need a lens to see what happens -- does it stretch?


Appreciate any comments...I am trying to decide should I sell or keep my isco iii lens.


Charles2006
The Oppo can't vertically stretch a 4K resolution. It might be able to vertically stretch a 1080P resolution and then up-scale to 4K. But that is not the problem. With 1080P sources, you can always send to the projector and it can stretch and upscale. The problem is when 4K scope BD's start becoming available. No way to apply vertical stretch to them.

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post #4078 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
The Oppo can't vertically stretch a 4K resolution. It might be able to vertically stretch a 1080P resolution and then up-scale to 4K. But that is not the problem. With 1080P sources, you can always send to the projector and it can stretch and upscale. The problem is when 4K scope BD's start becoming available. No way to apply vertical stretch to them.

Thank you, I think I understand now. However, my question was in reference to the oppo-- as I have read here that up-scaling with the oppo is superior to the up scaling in the Sony, this based on what I read in this forum, before I asked this question. (always nice to read 136+ pages of information first LOL)


I was only wondering what would happen 'visually' with a oppo 105D (which I have) and a sony 500ES -- which I do not yet own -- if a Blu-ray was placed into the tray, set the resolution to 4k (on the oppo) and pressed the button to stretch.


I understand about true 4k Blu-ray when ever it comes out at the end of 2015 perhaps? but right now I wanted to see which in 'my particular' case is more efficient -- Blu-ray player scaling and stretching (if possible) or the projector scaling and stretching, I see now that anything sent to the project is 'automatically' scaled, so sending a 1080p signal will scale to the native panel 4k (I would assume UHD) resolution, and then stretch it so my ISCO III lens should be kept and not sold.


Makes sense...was just curious. I posted this in the oppo forum as well, I guess no body ever tried this.


Regards,
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post #4079 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by charles2006 View Post
Thank you, I think I understand now. However, my question was in reference to the oppo-- as I have read here that up-scaling with the oppo is superior to the up scaling in the Sony, this based on what I read in this forum, before I asked this question. (always nice to read 136+ pages of information first LOL)


I was only wondering what would happen 'visually' with a oppo 105D (which I have) and a sony 500ES -- which I do not yet own -- if a Blu-ray was placed into the tray, set the resolution to 4k (on the oppo) and pressed the button to stretch.


I understand about true 4k Blu-ray when ever it comes out at the end of 2015 perhaps? but right now I wanted to see which in 'my particular' case is more efficient -- Blu-ray player scaling and stretching (if possible) or the projector scaling and stretching, I see now that anything sent to the project is 'automatically' scaled, so sending a 1080p signal will scale to the native panel 4k (I would assume UHD) resolution, and then stretch it so my ISCO III lens should be kept and not sold.


Makes sense...was just curious. I posted this in the oppo forum as well, I guess no body ever tried this.


Regards,
Charles2006
I believe the projector stretches it and then upscales to 4K. If it could stretch it afterwords, we would be all set (those of us with A-lens) for 4K scope movies. Nothing out there as of now, stretches 4K.

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post #4080 of 4192 Old 12-12-2014, 10:46 AM
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I believe the projector stretches it and then upscales to 4K. If it could stretch it afterwords, we would be all set (those of us with A-lens) for 4K scope movies. Nothing out there as of now, stretches 4K.
You are correct my friend, I emailed OPPO directly this was their response:


"
to me





Charles,

If the disc does not prohibit it, the player will be able to ZOOM the image so that it is stretched and you can then use your lens to properly frame it on your projector screen. The ZOOM is done prior to the 4Kx2K conversion, so the only time ZOOM is not available in the player is when it is prohibited by the disc.

If the disc prohibits this function, then you will need to use the projectors zoom capabilities to get the image to be thrown properly on your projector screen.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94043
Service@oppodigital.com
Tel: 650-961-1118
Fax: 650-961-1119"


Regards,
Charles2006
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